Mah'alleinir

Hey, pretty cool theory. I have little problems with it that I'll elaborate later as I now lack the time but for the time being, would you mind to try to rephrase some of it? Mostly at the begining. Maybe it was me but it took me a little to get into it 'cause I wasn't able to follow where you were going.

In my experience, in spanish, they translate some words and leave some others. It's rather complicated 'cause spanish doesn't exactly have compound words, except sometimes. Maybe. For example "spren" are left like that, but "fearspren" is translated to "miedospren" (which is kindda fun sounding for native spanish speakers cause we usually don't do that)
Also "Allomancy" is translated to "Alomancia" where "Allo", from alloy, should be "Aleo", from "aleación", and "mancy"="mancia" (from greek both words). What I wanna say with this is that it's not only a matter of the language translated to but also of the word itself and the translators decition or lack of realization.

As for the magic systems, it's defintely not that every world has three magic systems. Magic is really complex in the cosmere. Each shard "has it's own system" but each one depends (a bit) on the way people think about it (they mold it through the cognitive realm) and the interactions between shards can result in "new systems". So what it may seem like ten magic systems might just be a veriety of manifestations of two shardic systems through thought or interaction.

And last, I don't think so. Shards have "intuitive knowledge" of lots (way to many) of things and it would be rather strange if one of those things wasn't how their magic system works. Also, as explained, what each system can do is heavily influenced by user's perceptions of it (Kaladin not healing his slave scars and many more examples) 

So I was re-reading Codex Alera and found this funny match

On 28/1/2019 at 2:18 PM, Weltall said:

Ahhhhh, we're not supposed to talk about Aether of Night outside its dedicated board. Also, until Brandon rewrites it none of the magic is strictly canonical.

My bad, sorry. Should I delete it though? It's not like I give actually anything away. And I hope the thing I'm talking about get's cannonized in some way.

I think that certain magic from aether of night may allow for human hybrids. Also the where some weird creatures there but I don't remember them well enoguh
Also I think that metalminds may count as magic amulets.

23 hours ago, robardin said:

What?! When?!! How??!!?

(I mentioned him in the context of how prominent a full Shardbearer would be among the Alethi, as an example of how highly placed the Diagram had their people)

 

Killed by some fused when they took Moash

Damnation! I was tottally lost on that. Thanks for clearing it up!!

On 16/11/2018 at 3:18 PM, RShara said:

Here's a great place to start, though he hasn't be able to update it recently

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JJtJhHwpKdow01n2-bsT3scVvqJd6lZh4uvpNwcslv8/edit#gid=0

Hey, maybe I'm missing something but I thought that the period between Dev+Dom beeing splintered and the story in Elantris was much shorter. The prologue ends with paradise ending ten years ago (maybe an error). 
Or maybe it's my mistake as I always thought that Elantris fell when Dev+Dom were splintered

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's exactly my point. Taravangian was a fool to take Odium at his word. 

I don't know how but I totally got it backwards, sorry! HAHA

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Shards, can absolutely lie. And from what we've seen they are very much bound specifically by what they believe their promise to mean. If the agreement is not made explicit, and they believe that what they have agreed to is different than what the other party thinks the agreement means... 

Mistborn spoilers. 

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This is precisely how Ruins Betrayal of Ati was possible at all. Per Leras. 

 

They are also capable of lying to themselves. 

Trusting a shard to hold to the spirit of an agreement is trusting them to interpret that agreement in exactly the same way you do. 

I'm sorry but I disagree. Exploiting loopholes in a contract is what breaking the spirit means. Nevermind if it's a loophole you were specifically aware when making it or one you found later.

Have you (not just Calderis, you people) read Dresden Files? Interactions with the Fae dance around this kind of things all the time.

The only way I can see to get a situation in wich either side would think the other broke the spirit while said one would think he didn't, would be if both sides genuinely had different ideas of what the contract meant and also was oblivious to the other's side idea of the contract. And I don't see that happening with any shard but I guess time will tell.

Also, Leras never claims he sticks to the spirit of his agreements, Odium does (don't know if it applies to the spirit of his claims too) but if ge CAN lie we don't really know if he trully keeps the spirit of his words/agreements.

11 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

To Mah’alleinir: I think you are mixing two things together. Shards only have to stick to the spirit of a PACT, something that was an agreement between two people (but even that is open to loopholes if either party sees something as sticking to the spirit, even though the other party doesn’t see it that way). Odium never made a pact with the Vorin church, so he’s not breaking it and can lie all he wants.

I think you might be right about this but just to be certain, I seem to recall that in his conversations with Dalinar Odium claims to be (always) sincere and, at least gave me the impression, that he insinuates he doesn't/can't lie. Maybe he is intentionally mixing this things with the fact that he would keep the spirit of a pact in order to trick humans into believing he can't lie. And if he can lie how do we know if it's true what he says about the spirit of a pact (there may be a WoB, I haven't looked)

To Diomedes: 
Spoiler tagg contains arguments against you before reading your last edit

I'm still leaving them because till this point I don't think you where actually making that argument at all. I think either I didn't get it, you failed to present it that way, or you changed your argument.
So as I see them as different argument I think my answers till this point are still valid against what you were previously saying

For the point you make on your last edit I could buy that way of keeping the spirit and winning the ardents over (or some at least,) if you can make the case that modern Vorinism is more aligned with Odium than Honor. And Odium would only be keeping the spirit if he would explain that, although they started as Honor's religion, they've been following his way for "x" time now. And he could use the fact that humanity started on his side in his favor.

I mean, if he lies by omitting the bit of Vorinism begining with Honor (if this is actually true), I'd still think he would be breaking the spirit.
I say this 'cause, imagine we both lived in USA, and imagine we sign a contract in wich you provide some service for me and in exchange I'll pay you a million dollars. Suppose it's written exactly like that and that there are no laws about the default currency of exchange inside USA (I don't know if there actually are).
Now, when I pay you I do so in NZD, that are worth around 0,6 USD. I would technically be keeping the letter but if I knew you were thinking USD when signing, I'd be breaking the spirit

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

It does not matter, where the term "voidbringer" originated from. It only matters that Odium`s definition and the Ardent`s definition align. That definition would be for "Voidbringer": Everyone who fights against me the Almighty. Therefore Odium is not fooling the Ardents, since they agree on that definition. The same goes for the definition of "Desolation". Odium tells them: Only the first one was a proper desolation, a time when everyone else called you falsly "voidbringers". Because I, the Almighty, was leading you. If Ardents and Odium agree on that definition, the spirit is not broken. The same again for the term "the Almighty". Both parties agree that they mean Odium, thus nobody is deceived.  

Well what is the basis of any religion? Is it really historical events? If that would be the case later generations would not know, what religion is right or wrong. No, the basis for any religion is a feeling of revelation, the feeling of the presence of a god. That is how you are supposed to know that your religion is truthful. Odium would argue that their religion was indeed based historically on a guy called Honor and his heralds, who deceived people into revering him and twisted a lot of facts. But their religious feeling for a god leading humanity was justified. It just happened to be that the guy who initiated the religion was not actually god, he, Odium, was the cause for their religious feelings.    

 If tomorrow a literal god would come down to planet earth in a ray of light, who can break the laws of physics, would tell christians (or muslims or jews): "I am your lord, your creator. It just happens that 60% of the stuff in the bible is not actually true. But 40% are totally true." Would Christians be dismayed or believe that they had been wrong all this time? No! they would celebrate, congratulate themselves and think that all this time there was actually a guy hearing their prayers, even if some of the stuff in the bible is not true; Same would go for the Ardents.  

I was on the same track you are about the importance of where the term originated and that's why I said "...even if all that is right.." and proceeded to my actual point.
But know we seem to be on different tracks again. You even ignored the question I made that was fundamental to my point.

I conceed that he could, theoretically, make most of those claims without beeing untruthful.
Assume that he could tell all those things and based on the ignorance of the ardents, the vagueness of their terms and little knowledge of the actual events, he could get them to his side. Now answer this:
Would you agree that the fact is Vorinism is a religion that begun worshipping Honor and it's him who they mean by the Almighty? I mean, they worshiped the Heralds and those are of Honor, they had, for a time, the Radiants in high esteem, and those are his too. How on damnation saying the things you claim that he needs to say would not be breaking the spirit while keeping the letter?
If the real origin of Vorinism is aligned with Honor, Odium would need to outright lie in the claims you say he'd use!
Why do you understand by break the spirit whilst keeping the letter?

I guess the only why you could still have a point is by proving that Vorinism actually originated with Odium and the claims he would have to make about Honor, his Heralds and Knights are all factually true... but remember that the desolations where usually so destructive prior to the Radiants that almost all info was lost, I guess they could survive a couple but... from the first and then be hijacked by Honor as you would have Odium claim? To twisted, man.

Lastly, I don't think your parallel with Earths religions works as Vorinism could (and rather seems to) actually be factually based

34 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

I am sorry, if I offended you somehow, that was not my intention.

I am not saying you are simply wrong, I offer arguments to you. Arguments you can disagree with. 

None taken, it just seemed you were arguing against what you thought I thought instead of what I was argumenting. I shouldn't have answered that roughly, sorry for that. I just hate people saying "this is what you think" when I know for a fact it isn't.

Spoiler tags for length's sake.

Anyway I'm devating because even if you were right about everything you say, I just fail to see how exploiting such technicalities isn't going against the spirit of the letter.
Yes, he could dance around a lot of facts and such to make the Ardents believe he is the god they based their religion on but the fact is that's not true at all. Ardents may not know it and he could use such thing but that would be being dishonest.
I mean exploting loopholes, letting people assume things that are not true or partially true while not lying directly is exactly what breaking the spirit while keeping the letter means to me.
And I think that that's where we seem to disagree.
What would you say that would mean to break the spirit whilst keeping the letter intact?

4 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

But Odium probably did lead humans during the first Desolation, the spirit is intact.

You think there is some mystical bond binding Humans and Ardents to the real Honor, but there is none. He could tell them that there are some details of the story that people got wrong over the millenia, but the spirit: Knights Radiants are the traitors, Odium is the "good" god, is intact.      

In favor of keeping a civil discussion I will simply point out that you don't know what I think.That if that's what you get from what I'm saying you're simply wrong and I'm gonna ask you to not be so arrogant as to believe your reasoning leads inevitable to the truth of what I think. Don't stay on that track.

What I'm saying is that Vorinism teaches that the desolations were terrible wars between humankind and voidbringers. From what you can get humans≠voidbringers according to Vorinism, doesn't matter if it's true or not. Is what they believe. SO the god humans call Almighty in Vorinism can't be the same god the voibringers have and thus it's irrelevant to the point the fact that they've changed gods and sides. Claiming he is the Almighty through such technicality when it's against Vorinism teachings would be breaking the spirit while sticking to the letter

10 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Again, Vorinism does not define who the "Voidbringers" are. Jasnah learns after a lot of research that the Parsh were the Voidbringers. People do not know that.

Also Odium was probably leading the Humans during the first Desolation. So he could say that there was only one true desolation instead of 99. Then Humans betrayed the Almighty and created the traiterous Knights Radiant to fight against their God. But now they have time to right their wrongs by joining him.

 

 

Yeah, but don't you see how all of this is dependant of focusing on the letter rather than the spirit of the claims?

19 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Do they?

As far as I know, they don`t know about any force called "Honor", they only know the "almighty, creator of mankind", which fits just as well to Odium. The coppermind article on Vorinism does not even mention Honor. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Ardentia 

Like I said there is not even the concept of an evil god or a devil in Vorinism, these people don`t know anything about shards and powers. 

You might be right but ain't the whole point of the ardentia to teach about humans and the almighty fighting against the voidbringers in the desolations? How does Odium fit on that?

2 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

He is not posing as "Honor", he is posing as the Almighty, the one true god.

You presume the Ardents know as much about Honor, Odium Radiants and their powers as our POVs do, but they don`t. The only source of knowledge for them is a) Dalinar an heretics or b ) their own doctrin.

Thing is Vorin doctrin is so unspecific, it could apply to anything. Odium doesn`t need to lie, he just needs to leave out parts of the truth.

Well yeah, but ardents associate the Almighty with Honor so posing as the Almighty for them is in direct violation of the spirit of such idea. And is something he would definitly know as it's what he would be counting on for it to work.
At least that's how I see it, and  I'm not claiming it it to be totally impossible for something kindda like that to happen. I just think it's not that easy for him to trick people if what he claims about himself (or how I interpret such claims) is true

12 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think that, in general, Rayse would not be someone that I would normally trust. However, Rayse as Odium is bound to any agreements he intentionally makes, due to his nature as a Shard, so I would trust him on that count. Whatever his Intent is in making pact, he is bound to.

I think that if there is any loophole he could exploit to trick the ardents is in the extent of how his bounds work (do we have any wob on this beeing even true?)
I mean, can he lie as long as there is no agreement? If so he could reveal himself as the Almighty (a lie without a pact), then leave, then come back and pact an agreement with the ardents where there is no mention of him being the god they think him to be... but I still think this goes against the spirit of the pact

Do you believe when Odium says he doesn't lie and/or respects the spirit of pacts rather than the letter?
I don't, but have my doubts if it could be the case.
The point beeing that if this is true, it would be way harder for him to pose as Honor and get the ardents on his side.
Also, someone said it's a pretty straight forward conflict with parshendi vs. humans. I don't think this to be true at all, Oathbringer shows it never was quite like that and I believe this desolation will be even less delinieted than ever

9 hours ago, Yua999 said:

Does just burning cadmium/bendalloy place the speed bubble on you automatically?

Yes it does, however I believe there was a way to cancel out the effects by two people next to each other burning each one simultanously or some other way. May be spilling nonsense about that last thing though

On 13/9/2018 at 11:18 AM, tmnsquirtle said:

Anyways, here are a few WoBs that make me skeptical of the whole 'Lerasium-Connection' theory. Spoilered for length.

1. It rewrites your sDNA

2. Becoming a mistborn is not the 'primary' effect of Lerasium (this hole in our understanding bothers me a LOT)

 

I have my share of problems with the theory but I haven't put them in order yet and that's why I didn't claim the theory was right.
As I understand it though, the things you mention are taken into account on the thread.
According to the theory, Lerasium does rewrite your sDNA changing the part involved with your connection to the shard it's alloyed. When it's consumed alone it augments one's connection to preservation making them a mistborn. When alloyed with a mistingmetal it enhances that connection in some sort of way that only works with the associeted metal.
That's what I undestood from the post

8 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I get off topic easily. Sorry!

As far as the OP goes, I'm torn. On one hand, we don't know that much about how Lerasium works, other than that it influences your sDNA somehow, so it should be theoretically possible (with infinite time, knowledge, and investiture available) to create something that has a similar effect. On the other hand, it seems extremely unlikely that anything from any magic system could create an effect that mirrors that of another system.

On the subject of what does lerasium actually do, I saw just yesterday, or the day before, a post where someone theorized rather well about it doing something to the consumer's connection part of their spirit web,. And someone then replied with the new info of a WoB kindda confirming it. I'll try and find it and edit it here later.

Edit: there Lerasium theory + WoB

Well, I think you are missinterpretating OP's idea (except for the first comment).
I believe OP means creating an awakened metal with effects like those of a lerasium bead, through breath.

I'm not entirely sure if it'd work or not. I mean, investiture isn't all that different as you can use different kinds to power different magics but that's not exactly what is being proposed here.
Maybe you could replicate some of the effects of a lerasium bead to scadrial people. Probably to lerasium misting/mistborn. I don't believe it would make anyone a mistborn. Not even a Scadrial. I'm not really savyy in realmatics functioning though. May be spilling nonsense

Did all the Sand Mistresses stopped Mistressing sand 'cause they all got tired of being called Sandwitches by darksiders?

Hey, this might be a little offtopic but the thread got me thinking...
If the bulk of a Shard's power is in the Spirtual Realm and such place doesn't really account for "space".
How come a Shard can hide from another? Does a Shard need to find another in the PR to kill it? 
Haven't seen this talked here but I really haven't searched for it. Just questions going trough my mind that might be worth sharing.
Most of the Shard interactions with the PR are kindda covered in mist (no pun intended) to my eyes.
For example, to what extend does Odium know what's going on on Roshar? Might not be a fair case though as he is kinda locked on Braize (all of this is really blurry to me)
He doesn't seem to know it all as he asks King T to get him what the Coalition knows on something (don't recall exactly what know) but that might just be a test

I always figured he somehow attached his cognitive shadow to a blank kandra. Any thoughts if posible? I can see a few advantajes in doing so