Gavin-son-son-Odegard
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Everything posted by Gavin-son-son-Odegard
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THIS. This needs to happen, storms I'd pay good money to read an entire full-length novel around this, like I'm laughing my butt off just picturing the encounter in my head. Talk about things you never knew you wanted
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I can't honestly say if you're being serious with this or not -
Yeah I'm with you on this one
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hmm...now this is a real possibility. I like this theory.
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While the riots resulting from Pai's actions are definitely in favor of Mr. T, I don't see her being a part of the Diagram. She just seemed to earnest in her devotion to the Vorin faith, I really think she was all she appeared to be, especially since she had to no trouble publicly humiliating Aesudan which she would have known would end with her death, not something an agent of a secret society would readily do. Still I could always be wrong, and Brandon can always surprise us, so who knows
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Exactly! it's a totally Jasnah thing to do, to have potential threats to her family watched and be ready to have them killed if necessary. Question is who could these potential threats be?
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Something to add to Jasnah's side of things. Something caught my attention in my most recent reread of the WoR prologue, specifically Jasnah's inner thoughts after her brief encounter with her father in the palace corridors: Assassins. Plural. So Jasnah had been meeting with more than one assassins? Who else? and why? obviously one assassin would be more than enough to deal with Aesudan, especially one as highly skilled as Liss - so I would assume that there had to be some other individual(s) she was planning to have assassinated. Who could they be? Did Jasnah actually successfully assassinated anyone before Gavilar's death? I don't think so personally but still it's a question to consider. Could Restares be one candidate? Thaidakar, whoever he is? Even Sadeas maybe? Someone else? Or Am I just barking up the wrong tree here?
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Doesn't the fact that Gavilar thought these two could potentially gain from his death, automatically make them threats to him? Agreed completely.
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I get what you're saying. But I'm not convinced, sure her father might be a powerful man and securing such an alliance is important obviously but if she was this incompetent she would pose as much risk to the families power and position - which she has done so far - as potentially offending her powerful family. Besides there are other ways besides marriage to secure alliances and loyalties. Also while I can see Gavilar not being attentive enough about these things, I can't imagine Navani not being heavily involved with choosing her son's potential wife and the future queen. *Also thanks for bringing back Red Wedding memories, not painful to think about at all Speaking of Aesudan's father, if we're right an he's Restares, and considering Gavilar knew of Restares and seemed to consider him a threat, could the marriage between Aesudan and Elhokar have been a deliberate attempt on Gavilar's part to secure an alliance with the Sons of Honor? Maybe his and their goals aligned at the time? Or so might have Gavilar thought at least.
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This may be but I think it's fair to say the the general populace of Kholinar were already upset with Aesudan's rule, Pai's actions and subsequent death was the last straw, at which point the people decided enough was enough. But there would already have been discontent and anger towards her even before that and I think that even without Pai, the riot may still have happened eventually, perhaps much later but as some point people would have been fed up one way or the other. I can't imagine Sons of Honor not taking this into consideration. Agreed. Though from what we know of Vorinism and its' view on gender roles, politicking doesn't seem to be considered unfeminine and improper for women to take part in. Still we don't really know the Sons of Honor's interpretation and view of Vorinism. Ok let's get back to Jasnah. Let's examine her action with the assumption that Aesudan is indeed connected with the Sons of Honor. This would be a sufficient enough motivation for Jasnah to want her dead. She wouldn't trust Sons of Honor, considering they're religious fanatics and she an atheist and a 'heretic'. But was she aware of their existence then? She has some knowledge of secret societies in the present day - she knows of Ghostbloods, and it's not a stretch to imagine she's aware of Sons of Honor as well. though she seems to be somewhat ignorant of the Diagram's existence so far as I can tell. But what about before Gavilar's death? Obviously Jasnah is super smart, savvy and observant so it's pretty likely that she would have been aware even then of some of them. It's also worth noting that from the little interaction between her and Amaram, she appears not to have a high opinion of the guy, this doesn't necessarily mean anything but it's worth noting.
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The Sons of Honor/Restares theory seems viable the more I think about it. But does the current riots and chaos in Kholinar benefit them? Yes they want to restore the Vorin church but how do they intend to do that? With a coup? or by way of more subtle political maneuverings? Also if Aesudan is really Restares's daughter or has some other connection to the Sons of Honor, then wouldn't she have more of an active role in their plans and machinations?
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Yeah I lean towards her being a tool too, it just makes more sense with what we know of her and her attitude and actions so far. I still strongly believe that she is at least in part being influenced/manipulated by a supernatural entity of some kind, it explains her behavior much better. I mean for her to be manipulated to this degree without realizing it solely by a mere human she has to be simply a clueless idiot but if the unmade/Odium/etc are behind it then her erratic behavior and clouded judgement is much easier explained. As for her descent, I agree that it had to be relatively recent, and probably gradual in pace. Otherwise, as has already been mentioned, why would Navani leave her in charge of Alethkar to come to the Shattered plain if she didn't trust Aesudan to be capable of the job? Navani is not stupid, she'd have realized immediately that Aesudan was unfit for the rule if she was behaving as she would be later while Navani was in Kholinar, so at the time Aesudan had to be behaving at least somewhat reasonably. The question is, what was Aesudan like before her descent into paranoia and erratic behavior began? Was she a smart and competent person before all this? Because I can't imagine Elhokar marrying her if she had behaved even remotely as she does now, at the time. He was the heir to the throne of Alethkar for god's sake and she would be the future queen, you don't let just anybody into this position. Even if she and Elhokar were in love, I can't see Navani and Gavilar permitting their union if they weren't satisfied that Aesudan was savvy and competent enough for the job. Now this doesn't mean that she couldn't have being suffering from some sort of paranoia even then which the manipulator entity later decided to take advantage of, but she had to be at least somewhat smart and politically savvy before Gavilar's death. If this is true, then Jasnah's decision to have her assassinated couldn't have been due to Aesudan's incompetence but something else entirely. I realize this is all conjecture, we've so little information to go off on. You say she must be unaware of the damage she's causing, but I wonder if she's at least aware that she's being manipulated/influenced/controlled? Is there a part of her fighting against this influence or is she so thoroughly under the entity/entities control that she has no idea what she is doing? once again we know so little that it's hard to guess, we've yet to actually 'meet' her, and don't really know what she's like as a person. Once she finally appears 'on screen' and we get to directly see her actions and behavior it'll be much easier to judge these things and to speculate about her state of mind a little more firmly. Do you think there could be any legitimacy to her fear of the Almighty's displeasure with her? Of course Honor is dead but she could be easily mistaking some other being with the Almighty. Does he believe he's speaking with he, how does she know he's displeased with her?
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Ok this thread has died down, largely my fault as I've not been active here for well over a week. Anyway to get things back on track and hopefully rejuvenate the conversation I'm gonna put down a small summary of all that's been said and the theories that have been put forth so far in this thread regarding Aesudan Kholin, this way people can jump into the discussion without having to read every single post up to this point. Here we go: Aesudan's attitude and state of mind: Political incompetence Too Self-involved Excessive lifestyle Out of touch with the common people and the struggles of the country Paranoia (she's convinced the Almighty is displeased with her) Appears to be mentally unstable Possible explanations, causes and theories: Under influence of a malevolent entity (Odium, the Unmade, etc.) - the same entity might also be causing paranoia in Elhokar. Putting up a front and this whole thing being an act (not very likely) She’s a political spy/puppet Daughter of Restares, or some other connection to Sons of Honor Connection to the Ghostbloods Connection to the Diagram Connection to some other secret (possibly nefarious) group or society. A combination of some of the above Jasnah’s possible reasons/motives for wanting her assassinated Aesudan’s political incompetence could potentially weaken the family’s rule and position and therefore she is a serious threat. Jasnah Knows of or suspects Aesudan’s involvement with one of the above mentioned groups Knows of or suspects the influence of the Unmade/Odium/some other entity on Aesudan (not very likely) Believes the woman to have some other secret agenda Some additional thoughts/questions: Has Aesudan always been like this or is her odd behavior and paranoia recent developments? If so, when did it start? Before or after Gavilar’s death? And was it a slow and gradual process? What was she like before this, if that’s the case? Bordin was spying on her, likely on Dalinar’s orders, why? What does Dalinar know about this situation? Has Jasnah filled him in on what she knows? The Ghostbloods were aware of Bordin spying on her, Is there any significance to this? Aside from Mr T, who else benefits from the chaos in Alethkar as a result of her actions? Odium, perhaps? Who else? In addition to whatever mystical/magical influence she is probably under, is she also being manipulated/controlled by a normal human (eg. An advisor, one of the ardents, family member…) to further that person's political gain? Restares could be one such candidate, who else? Is she a victim in all this, a mere tool for others? Or does she herself have some agency in this matter and is actively participating in whatever secret plan is being carried out? Did I miss anything?
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Um..I'm new...so hello
Gavin-son-son-Odegard replied to BrightnessRadiant's topic in Introduce Yourself!
Yay another fan! -
Um..I'm new...so hello
Gavin-son-son-Odegard replied to BrightnessRadiant's topic in Introduce Yourself!
Actually except for Secret History and The Hope of Elantris (which happens after Elantris), the rest of the stories in Arcanum Unbounded don't have any spoilers in them. So you can read those now, some of them are set on the planets which we don't even have novels about yet so you're good to go. Oh there's also a story called Allomancer Jak which is set on Scadrial (the world of Mistborn) and is set during Era 2 and has some very minor spoilers for Era 2 so you might wanna skip that. Even so it still leaves you with 5 stories you can read without getting spoiled for anything. OMG can you imagine her and Kaladin butting heads? I'll probably die of laughter Yay Shield buddies! we should totally be friends, I desperately need someone to talk and geek about AOS with cuz I don't know anyone in real life who watches the show (ugh, so few people watch this show and it's such a shame) anyway are you caught up? And yup I'm a huge geek, there are so many things that I'm crazy about and I'm pretty sure we have a lot more in common as well. So let's geek out! -
Um..I'm new...so hello
Gavin-son-son-Odegard replied to BrightnessRadiant's topic in Introduce Yourself!
I haven't read the Rithmatist or the Reckoners or any other of Brandon's non-Cosmere works (I definitely will at some point though). Edgedancer is a great short story, I loved every bit of it. Lift's quickly becoming one of my favorite characters in SA despiteh er limited 'screen' time so far. Mistborn is such a amazing and wild ride, you'll love it. Btw, I don't know if you know or not but there's a novella called Mistborn: Secret History which Brandon wrote a while back is also included in Arcanum Unbounded, it's a really...interesting story, that's all I'll say. It's set in Era 1 but I suggest not reading it until after you finished the Bands of Mourning (3rd book of Era 2) cuz there are lots of spoilers there for both eras. But it's a must read. and yes Hoid's awesome Side Note: I checked out your profile page and saw to my sheer delight that your cover photo is a Agents of Shield poster, I love love love that show. Always makes me happy to meet a fellow AOS fan cuz it's such an underrated show. -
Me too, me too! I love HP Favorite book : Half-blood prince followed closely by Chamber of Secrets Favorite Character: Luna Lovegood (duh!), Hermione, Harry, Sirius black, Dumbledore My House: Hufflepuff
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Um..I'm new...so hello
Gavin-son-son-Odegard replied to BrightnessRadiant's topic in Introduce Yourself!
Hey there @BrightnessRadiant welcome to our little corner of Cosmere madness. Kinda hard to choose a favorite among Brandon's works as every single one (at least those and I've read so far) is brilliant in its own unique way. That said, Mistborn era 1 is the first thing I've read of him so it has a special place in my heart, and I also love the magic systems there. But I love Era 2 just as much and Stormlight Archive is amazing so all three are up there for me. I'm gonna read Elantris and Warbreaker next, we'll see how I like those. Oh and I've just finish Arcanum Unbounded and storms is it awesome, great little gems from across the Cosmere are in one awesome collection, check that out if you haven't already. Anyway, have fun here and since you're still stuck as a Bridgeman, here's a little advice: try and stay at the back of the bridge, much safer there, oh and don't taunt the Parshendi -
I'm with you on this. Reading the Lhan interlude chapter the first impression I got about Aesudan was that, at the very least, she's got to be mentally unstable. It just fits with her behavior, like some of the things she does are just too odd - the religious obsession, letting food that's meant for the soldiers in the Shattered Plains just rot away, etc.- for her to be mentally stable.
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It's highly likely that she is. Jasnah ordered her to watch Aesudan, and considering everything that's happened since then I don't think she would have changed that order. Also I don't think Brandon would've included that whole scene in the WoR prologue if he wasn't planning to bring it up again at some point.
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@maxal I completely agree with this. You articulated the reason why Shallan/Adolin make a far better couple than Shallan/Kalladin better than I ever could. I also agree that both Shallan and Adolin need a lot more development and maturing up both as individuals and as couple before being able to settle down with each other. And them breaking up or at least distancing themselves from each other is a good way to go about doing that, and I'd be completely fine with that, so long as Shallan and Adolin breaking up doesn't lead to her and Kaladin dating. Which is where we disagree. I'd love to see Kaladin and Shallan's relationship progress and develop as much as you, but I maintain that it'll be alot more interesting if its done in a platonic manner. Let them spend time with each other, training, comparing notes on spren and surgebinding, getting to know eavh other even better and form a deeper connection and friendship. Friendship. Romance would be predictable here, a tired route. And sure these two are definitely attracted to each other somewhat, I don't deny that, but the attractions are for now on the more shallow side. It's natural for them to wonder of course, but personally I really hope that they discuss this with transparency as soon as possible and decide they work better as friends. As for Adolin, if Kaladin and Shallan remain platonic, then we can avoid the jealousy on his part. Instead Kaladin and Shallan's growing friendship can be a opportunity for adolin to grow as a person himself. Looking at how well those two understand eachother and wanting to emulate that, perhaps asking Kaladin for help in understanding Shalan better, and Kaladin actully helping him with that and not acting with jealousy (despite his own conflicted feelings). This is a much more mature way to handle this situation instead of romantic drama between the three of them. I'll say it again, I don't have anything against romance plot lines in general, so long as they're handled well, I'd enjoy them like any other aspect of a story. I just don't think there's any need to insert extra romantic drama and tension when there are better, non-romance options. As for Kaladin, I won't be opposed to him getting a romantic arc at some point, cuz god knows the dude can really use a girlfriend, but I'd rather it be someone other than Shallan, someone who complements him just as Shallan and Adolin do for eachother. And I'd prefer for it to happen late in the series, somewhere in book 4 or 5. Rysn could be a good candidate if they ever meet up.
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Good point. This makes a lot of sense actually. Nale went to overzealous constable mode, Chana to badass assassin mode. And I do think that if Liss is a Herald then she's got to be Chana, she's the only Herald that fits here from what we know of her.
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Great idea creating a separate thread for this @Calderis, as the Liss/Honorblade discussion has grown into its own thing, separate from the Aesudan theories. Anyway, the Szeth connection can potentially explain how Liss would know of the Honorblades (provided she's not a Herald herself). Interesting. Ooh Gavilar's assassination from Eshonai's pov? now that will be really enlightening and interesting to read. Back to the topic at hand. From what you're telling us here regarding this prologue, it at best diminishes the likelihood of Liss having learned about the Honorblades form Szeth but doesn't conclusively disapprove it. Of course having not reading the Oathbringer prologue myself, I can't make any concrete assessments about this one way or the other. We're entertaining both possibilities here in this thread. Personally though. I lean more towards the 'Liss is a normal person who learned things she shouldn't' idea. That said we can't really dismiss the 'Liss the Herald' as there's nothing disapproving this theory so far, so we're open to discussing both here.
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Agreed on all accounts.
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@Weltall I don't know how Liss could be a Herald. I mean I know some of them have been seen in Kholinar but why would a Herald start working as an Assassin for hire? specially since Liss seemed to have been doing this for a while, considering what a reputation the 'Weeper' has. Also Liss doesn't seem insane to me while the other Heralds all are in some way or other. And if she was one, she would already have an Honorblade why take Taln's as well? So nobody else would get their hands on it? Besides were did she find a normal Shardblade to swap for the Honorblade? As for the Aesudan thing; That is a good point that I hadn't given much thought to. So does that mean that she had been reasonable and competent before? There was nothing to suggest a sudden change in behavior in the Lhan's interlude chapter though.
