8bitBob

Long story short, it depends on a lot of factors, but it may help a little bit sometimes. Short story longer, it has to do with the type of material and projectile structure you use. If you had something like a simple piece of spherical steel, the shot is almost guaranteed going to ricochet off immediately after first impact. The springy, sturdy nature of the material means there's going to be very little deformation on impact, which means very little time spent where the target and projectile contact. In addition, that recoil force is going to probably send it flying. On the other hand, if you had a material like lead, then you may indeed get a bit of bonus force imparted as the led deforms on the target (assuming it's a direct hit and it doesn't glance off.) This sort of thing would be hard to calculate though, and wouldn't be very substantial compared to the forces already in effect. Where this type of thing is likely to be the most impactful is actually with coins passing through soft materials like flesh. Flesh actually clings to anything penetrating it very well, robbing it of its energy. Pushing on a coin while it passes through would be like continuing to press on a knife as you stab something. I suspect this is one of the main reasons why Coinshot are capable of passing through a target with such an inefficient projectile. I do have a tendency to unfairly compare Coinshots to Wax, but I don't think I'm being unfair here. Allomancy has a lot of in built things that make it unreasonably easy to use. On her very first night, Vin balances a hundred feet in the air on what is essentially an infinitely small ribbon of force. Kelsier explains that her body naturally balances to make this happen, despite that being practically impossible for the average person. What I'm saying is that all Steelpushing should be impossibly difficult, but it works Because Magic. In this case though, Coinshots are kind of named after their ubiquitous tendency to accurately fling bits of metal at people. It's kind of their thing. I would be really, really surprised if it was possible to Soulcast a Mistborn, or a Knight for that matter. Investiture interfering with Investiture isn't simply a balancing aspect for combat, but a fundamental law of the Cosmere. When asked questions about stuff like this, WoB has repeatedly indicated that it requires exponentially more Investiture to alter an object than the object itself has. That isn't even mentioning the fact that ranged Soulcasting seemed to take far more Investiture than melee, as it instantly shattered Jasnah's gem. You're right about the other surges potentially being better suited though, which is why I mentioned it's a bit difficult to have this debate. On another subject, I thought I'd point this out, since people seem to disbelieve my interpretation of the power of Steelpushing. In a way, I understand why that is. It just seems like too much power for an individual, and makes Allomancy seem way too strong by comparison. Gravitation may be even more powerful for this sort of thing. One of the most deadly things Kaladin could do to an army would be to Lash hundreds of arrows and heavy objects a few times towards them and watch it wreak havoc. I doubt it would be as accurate (like trying to drop a rock on somebody from up high) but you don't need accuracy to fight a line of soldiers. Stuff like this is why I've always discounted regular soldiers in a magic conflict. In a battle between wizards, the life of the common man is cheap.

She does kill Koloss with coins. The issue there is a concept called stopping power, a common thread of discussion for gun enthusiast. It's also why arrows seemed to have little effect on them, according to Sazed. While Vin kills some with coins in Well of Ascension, their greater mass and density means it has to hit something vital to kill, which Sazed remarks upon. To reliably kill multiple Koloss per push, she would have to perfectly line up every coin being launched for, say, a head shot. To make things more complex, as coins pass through multiple Koloss (or get lodged in one) they're going to be robbed of their all important kinetic energy. If she keeps pushing, she'll just be thrown back. If she stops pushing, they'll stop on the first target. To kill with coins, you need to build up energy in travel, and there's just not enough distance in between targets for it to work reliably, from what it seems. Personally, I think that steel is still the most efficient way to kill en masse, but we don't see a lot of that directly in the books. Mostly because it's reprehensible, but also because other Allomancers exist. In Well of Ascension, Vin specifically cites her low steel and iron reserves do to traveling across an entire dominance as the reason she doesn't use it to fight the army. In Hero of Ages, Vin and Elend fight hand to hand specifically so Koloss will see small people killing large Koloss so they'll feel fear and be open to control through Soothing, so no long range mass killing here either as that won't do the job they're aiming to do. In situations where there is no Coinshot involved but against regular people, Vin can and has simply cut them down with coins. The one time we do see Vin kill en masse is when she attacks the Cett compound in Well of Acension, and she does indeed use steel to do most of the dirty work. She was also horrified by her actions and thought she was a monster for doing it, which is the real reason we don't see our heroes doing things like this against helpless rank and file soldiers, and why Allomancers weren't used in the Final Empire's army: it's complete overkill. As for why my specific, large projectile example hasn't been seen, the last time we saw an Allomancer fight armored soldiers, she just threw them around like rag dolls. The need to penetrate armor simply hasn't come up yet. The math is perfectly sound though, and not even impressive compared to other things we've seen them do.

To be clear, Vin's "strength" as an Allomancer wasn't because she was literally more powerful (aside from Bronze, due to Hemalurgy), like Elend was, but because she was better at using it with finesse and control. Pushing a bit of metal is easy, and any newbie Coinshot alive during her time should be able to push about as hard. She manages this on her very first night, and Kelsier remarks that, if she doesn't want to use steel to get back down, then she's going to have to explain to the guards why a Mistborn needs to use the stairs, implying any of them could have got up there this way. It would also make no sense for Kelsier to expect her to make it up if the average Coinshot couldn't, seeing as this was her very first use of steel and Kelsier has no idea of her capabilities. So yeah, I do feel that, by this specific metric, it's entirely fair to use Vin as a benchmark. Especially considering the massive degree to which I lowballed things. I don't really agree. Sure, Kelsier would use it better, but that doesn't mean that he's the only one that could keep track of a piece of metal. They kind of have lines pointing to them. Kelsier was amazing with Iron and Steel, no doubt. He was able to manage large numbers of objects and instantly drop his force when he felt the Inquisitor pull or push on them. In his fight with the Hazekiller's he was able to keep a single ingot of metal constantly flying through the air with expert pushes and pulls, without ever needing to directly handle it with his body. Vin was probably even better towards the end. That is not what I'm proposing. It takes very little skill comparatively to pick up a piece of metal, hold it to your center of mass and push. Once you stop pushing, you grab another and hold it to your chest and fire. Once you run out, you burn iron and fetch them, manually catching them with your hand. Rinse and repeat. This is pretty much the most basic use of steel and iron, and shouldn't exactly require an expert to pull off. Like you say, even a regular Mistborn should be able to recycle ammo.

Yep, as I've said before, Mistborn needs to have appropriate ammunition and understand the basics of Plate to do this. Knight wins resoundingly if it's a blind fight out of nowhere, in my opinion. Well, assuming the Knight happens to be wearing their Plate at the time, that is. According to the same math I just posted, it would take exactly 0.4977 seconds to travel the full distance with it getting faster the closer it gets, making it harder to react to. Additionally, the projectile has a diameter of three inches, which isn't that big or easy to spot from range. Assuming the Knight can even see it coming at a distance of thirty meters, that's going to be pretty hard to dodge. But let's say a Knight can indeed dodge it. I remain skeptical, but if they spotted it being fired, then they'd have a decent chance to with their increased reflexes and speed. Theoretically, the Mistborn could fire at a rate of 120 rounds per minute since they can immediately fire another projectile after the first. That doesn't mean they can keep firing for a whole minute, unless we say they're just sitting by a massive pile of ammo, but it does mean they can put a huge number of shots down range and then just collect their ammo with an Ironpull and try again, like Vin did with the horse shoes against the Koloss. Basically, this isn't just a one off thing that the Radiant only has to do once, but a constant threat that he will always need to be avoiding while trying to close the distance for a kill. How many times can you avoid a projectile that's going to put you down? Even if the Knight had a 95% success rate in dodging these, statistics says they're going to get hit eventually, and it's going to be devastating. In addition, this ignores the versatility of Steelpushing. My math was simply meant to convey the sheer energy a Mistborn can generate, not provide a road map for taking down a Knight. Unlike a rifle, a Mistborn can simultaneously fire multiple projectiles at will for less power. It would be a much better idea to send multiple shots down range that are significantly harder to dodge, cracking the Plate and slowing the Knight down, before going in for a single heavy shot meant to end it. Finally, the Mistborn can also just grab every scrap of metal nearby and Duralumin burst it all down range at completely absurd speeds. I'd like to see anyone dodge that (Okay Rashek, sit down. You could indeed dodge it. Stop showing off.) Basically, the Knight is going to have to weather a non stop hail of "arrows" that actually present a threat, which is a nightmare for any melee combatant. edit for your edit: As I mentioned, unlike a rifle, a Mistborn can just reuse ammunition, and they don't need a specific cannonball, but just a piece of metal the right size. Amusingly, Vin actually had the right idea, as horseshoes weigh about 2lbs, which would make a decent anchor for bludgeoning and are pretty common anywhere not Roshar. So we're not giving the Mistborn infinite, perfectly suited equipment, just literally any metal of substantial size. Not exactly unreasonable when the Knight is bringing what amounts to powered armor.

Yes, but he only fell a few feet (had to make it not look suspicious), and Coinshots are also capable of generating more concentrated force than gravity too. Any additional force from the Lashings can easily be made up by a longer distance. Just because we haven't seen it does not mean it's impossible. For one, a huge amount of the Coinshot combat we've seen involves other Coinshots, which means there are competing forces in opposite directions. For another, it's possible that, just like subsonic rounds, the killing power is enough that more energy and distance are not required. Remember, due to the nature of Allomancy, Mistborn have not had to deal with armor much as it's pretty much suicide. Yes, the force drops off, but that doesn't mean the coin stops accelerating. It just stops accelerating as much. This will only happen when the Coinshot is incapable of generating a force greater than the force of air friction, which means going incredibly fast or flying very far. You are entirely correct here. I blame it on a lack of sleep and having not been in a physics class in a few years. I think you may be misunderstanding how anchors work, likely due to the use of it in physics. In Allomancy, anchor refers to the size of the object which you are pushing on, not how well it is fixed in place. This means that a coin pushing on the ground is just as bad an anchor as a coin flying through the air. We know it works this way because every time a Coinshot needs to jump really high and far, they use a more substantial anchor. A few examples: Vin and Kelsier use ingots to hover that high in the example scene we've been discussing To launch the Wilg, Wax pushes off of a large metal plate expressly built for this purpose To fly back up to the Wilg, Wax drops a whole gun to use as an anchor, rather than a coin If simply placing the object on the ground were enough to make it a decent anchor, none of this would be needed. edit: Apologies, this is what I get for not rereading. I missed the last sentence here. The idea that anchors are stronger when braced is not crazy, as it could be chalked up to things Connection and Identity. That doesn't seem to be the case though. For example, WoB says that you can do goofy things like store your weight, Ironpull on an anchor you threw in the air to pull yourself up, increase your weight and Steelpush it farther, store your weight and Ironpull yourself even higher, etc etc, effectively allowing you to fly by throwing a rock and hitching a ride. Because magic. If flying anchors were significantly worse, then this sort of thing wouldn't really be possible. Personally, I think that anchors aren't really a matter of weaker vs stronger forces, but short range vs long range. In my head canon, at two feet away, you could almost equally push on a coin as you could a giant metal block, but you'll more rapidly lose pushing power with the coin than you would the block. This would help reconcile why you can't push coins to completely absurd speeds, as you'll very rapidly hit a point where the force of air friction equals your pushing power. It's actually exceptionally high. Did some incredibly low ball calculations to illustrate it: Assuming Vin weighs 100lbs, that means she's capable of generating at least 441N of force up to a distance of 100 feet (30.5m). In reality, the actual force she's capable of generating over this distance is far greater, since we know Coinshots generate more force the closer they are. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing how to describe the distribution of force compared to distance, so I'm just ignoring it and use the lowest confirmed force we know, which is the force to counteract the effects of gravity. Just remember that, due to this, I am lowballing to a massive degree. According to this random site I found, the weight of a small cast iron cannon shot was 4lbs, or 1.814kg. I think this is a pretty appropriate projectile to take down Plate, so I went with this. With the force and the mass, we can calculate the acceleration that the projectile will experience if all of the force is placed on the projectile: a = F/m With distance, initial velocity and acceleration, we can find the final velocity that the projectile will be traveling at by the time it reaches 30.5m: Vf^2 = Vi^2 +2ad Vi is zero, so it can be cancelled out. Therefore: Vf = (2ad)^0.5 Vf = (2(F/m)d)^0.5 Vf = (2(441/1.814)(30.5))^0.5 Vf = 121.78 m/s With the final velocity, we can calculate the KE at point of impact after traveling 30.5 meters: KE = 0.5mV^2 KE = 0.5(1.814)(121.78)^2 KE = 13,450 joules of energy For reference, according to wikipedia, the muzzle energy (the kinetic energy with which a bullet leaves the barrel) of a 50 caliber rifle is 15,000 joules, while a 9mm pistol is about 520 joules and a major league fast ball is about 140 joules. That is an incredible amount of energy, and far more than the human body is capable of generating. A spherical cannon shot is going to have far less penetrating power, but you've said, and I agree, that it seems like breaking Plate has more to do with hitting hard rather than piercing it. Even if penetration is a factor, a Coinshot is perfectly capable of using a projectile shaped for such a purpose. Keep in mind, it is guaranteed that Coinshots would actually generate more force than I have used, as discussed earlier. Now, I know someone is going to question air resistance, so I'll just head that off now. For simple objects such as spheres, we can use the formula: Fa = 0.5ARV^2 Where Fa is the force generated by air friction, A (pi r^2) is the cross section of the area of the sphere that is directional to the trajectory, R is the density of air at sea level (1.225 kg/m3 according to wikipedia) and V is the velocity at the instant of measurement. The force of friction will be greatest right before the point of impact, so I'll use that moment to illustrate how insubstantial it is: Fa = 0.5(pi (0.0381)^2)(1.225)(121.78)^2 Fa = 41.42N of force due to friction at the moment of impact. This means that even at the worst point of drag in this scenario, the air resistance is going to account for a less than ten percent loss of efficiency. I think it's reasonable to discount this, as Vin's "real world" force generation is going to be far greater. In conclusion, that is a crap tonne of kinetic energy, and far greater than anything a human could generate. I just cannot conceive of a situation where a bunch of strong guys slinging large rocks can compare to this level of energy.

I'm looking for a WoB that I think was pretty recent. It basically said that Shardplate would stand up pretty well against bullets. I swear it exists, but for the life of me I cannot find it.

No, it's the equivalent of having multiple people jumping on a concentrated point with a far more rigid structure that isn't losing energy to the natural shock absorbing qualities of the human body. It's not the same at all. Amusingly though, Kaladin actually does almost exactly what you say in the multiple opponent duel by Lashing himself horizontally many times, falling a very short distance and kicking them, and it actually cracks the breastplate, so that would undermine this counter point even if I agreed. What? Yes it does. Maybe this is where we're having issues. Steelpushing applies a continuous force. This means that a longer distance between the target and the starting point provides more time for the force to act upon the projectile, which increases the velocity until it hits a theoretical limit where the force of air friction is equal to the applied force and it stops accelerating, which is going to be significantly higher than terminal velocity for falling objects due to the greater force. This is the entire reason why Coinshots are deadly. We even have concrete proof of this concept in book one when Kelsier is fighting in a cramped room and, due to the very short distances, it fails to penetrate and just pushes the target back. While pushing herself above the wall in book one, Vin describes it as "blurring past" her. It's pretty fast even for people sized objects. If Vin were to push on a coin in a vacuum in space, they would both have equal kinetic energy in opposite directions (but different velocities). Actions and reactions and all that. It's only due to air resistance that heavier objects are imparted with more kinetic energy. This is why you need a heavier projectile, as you're going to be able to impart far greater energy into it before it hits the theoretical limit. So yes, you're probably right about coins, but that is not what we're discussing here. Yes, I think this is indeed where we're having issues. If it helps, don't think of it as force, but work. Due to the ability to project force at a distance, a Coinshot can do more more work on a projectile than is humanly possible, and thus impart more kinetic energy. If a five pound object is moving five hundred miles an hour when it hits you, it doesn't matter if it gained that energy instantly or over time, so long as it strikes you at the same velocity. So yes, Vin's legs apply greater force when jumping, but Steelpushing does more work, and that's more important here.

Think about the forces involved here. We have seen a Coinshot is capable of lifting at least their self and another person while pushing off a coin, which is a weak anchor. That's easily 300 pounds with gear and clothing just to counteract the effects of gravity, which means it's likely far in excess of this. While some very strong people can lift this kind of weight, their range of force projection is paltry compared to even a short range Steelpush, which is where the real power comes from. With more than a few yards of travel distance, the Kinetic Energy imparted on the projectile is going to immediately dwarf anything the human body could generate. The easiest way to think about this is in terms of jumping vs Steelpushing. In book one, Vin suspends herself one hundred feet in the air by pushing on a single ingot on the ground, which means she's currently generating enough force to counteract the effects of gravity for a roughly 100lbs person (she's pretty small). I don't think I need to explain how, even with a pewter flare, Vin could have never jumped even close to this height. That is because Steelpushing is practically a cheat mode for generating absurd forces over a distance, and all that kinetic energy can be used as a weapon. Just getting to that height means Vin has a Potential Energy of 13k joules, never mind how much Kinetic Energy that would translate to on the horizontal. That is far, far in excess of the energy that small arms fire generates. Comparing this to hammers, slings or small arms simply doesn't make sense to me. It really is on a whole other level.

This is basically why I've always said you'd probably need a better anchor than a coin, and is one of the reasons I said Mistborn would be at a disadvantage if they didn't understand the opponent. WoB says that Plate would stand up pretty well against small arms fire, and that's pretty much what coins are. You're also right about all of the points about penetration, but I think it's important to remember that this in no way prevents allomancers from killing with them. Steelpushing is that powerful. It's also versatile, so there's no reason they can't just use a better projectile for the job against an armored target. Parshendi are indeed stronger, but they're not Koloss tier or anything. Remember that Roshar is 0.7g, which is going to make things easier than we expect. They were also two handed slings, which I've yet to see in real life, but I imagine makes it easier. So yeah, still agree here. I just don't think a Mistborn would find it challenging if they had a heavier projectile. A rock the size of your head is still just a rock, and a hammer is still just a hammer, yet these still managed to crack Plate. The phrase has been used in this thread before, but Steelpushing truly is in another league compared to traditional medieval weaponry. The best comparison we've actually seen is when Szeth drops a many times Lashed large brick from a wall on a Shardbearer, which instantly shatters the breastplate and kills them.

Based on what exactly? The descriptions between Kaladin's abilities (speed, dexterity, reaction times, etc) have always been described pretty similar to the effects of pewter. Extraordinary, but not completely inhuman, which is what it would take to dodge a bullet. Are you sure you're not just overestimating the capabilities of Knights? I'm open to examples otherwise if you disagree.

Arrows would be nowhere near as fast as coins. Like, not even in the same ball park. Even in shorter distances, where they're at their weakest. Imagine you had a 600 ish pound crossbow (lowball estimate for max weight a Coinshot could lift) with a draw length of twenty feet, as opposed to twelve inches. Pewterarms gain increased speed and reflexes, but it didn't seem to help them to dodge either.

Brandon's post just said full blown Mistborn, rather than Marsh or Zane despite the question phrasing it that way. That seems to imply run of the mill Mistborn. My points were mostly about the raw forces involved though, not skill. A green Coinshot is going to push just as hard as Vin, and be just as capable of producing monstrous force, so I'm a bit confused.

If Adolin had the strength of twenty to thirty men in Plate, he would have thrown Kelsier clean across the training pit and probably pushed his rib cage out his back. Roshar does indeed have more Investiture flying around and being used, but I fail to see how that's beneficial here. Unless he's fighting on top of a dragon's hoard of infused gems, he's going to run out of Stormlight far sooner than a Mistborn will run out of metal reserves. Unless you're saying this will help against emotional Allomancy or Steelpushing the Knight directly, which is true but doesn't seem very relevant. As has been discussed earlier, this is up to debate. We also have no idea if being a Knight in Plate makes you stronger than a regular person in Plate. I realise that sounds intuitive to some, but a strong man isn't going to be stronger than a weak man in a mech suit. Same could apply to Plate. I'm not saying that this is the case, just that this is by no means a given. Potentially true, but more subjective than you're implying. A Mistborn is going to have no chance escaping a Windrunner in an open field, but they're not going to have a significant advantage in something like a city setting. Don't really agree with this on either account. Firstly, because Mistborn can do stuff like literally warp time with bendalloy and create cannon tier projectiles with their mind, which is insanely powerful, but also with the idea that duralumin is single use. Vin repeatedly showed that you can quickly down more metals after a duralumin burst, and she had to deal with Coinshots snatching her vials away, which will not be a problem here. It's more akin to requiring a reload than a one off burst. I think you're overestimating the durability of Plate and underestimating the strength of Steelpushes. We've often seen Plate be cracked by mundane things such as hammers wielded by regular troops, sling stones from regular troops and enhanced punches. Meanwhile, Steelpushes are anything but mundane. Coinshots produce hundreds of pounds of force over long distances, imparting incredible momentum by the time the projectile hits. The entire reason they're called Coinshots isn't because the have some sort of currency based motif going on, but because they can kill you with basically anything, so why bother having specialized projectiles? Imagine trying to kill someone with a forty five pound bow (or sling shot, if that's easier to picture) and all you have to fire is a coin. It's barely going to penetrate even the softest flesh, let alone go clean through as Coinshots have been known to do. If anything else we've seen break Plate can, a Coinshot with a decent anchor most certainly can. Because of this, you don't need a lucky shot through the visors for a kill. Even if the projectile doesn't kill, healing with Stormlight is not free. It's going to drain the Knight pretty fast if he's getting shredded by random debris. Once again, I've neglected to mention duralumin in this, as I don't really think Plate stands a chance against it. This also doesn't get into the theoretical uses for things like Chromium and Bendalloy for grappling, since we don't know how it would interact with needing to drain so much Investiture. We've also been told that Electrum has far more uses than we've been lead to believe (seeing your own death before it happens sounds pretty useful.) Like I said before, I think the Knight would probably easily win if they knew nothing about each other, but Mistborn have a lot of advantages if the combatants are familiar with the other at all. Finally, we have a quote from the man himself: Szeth was basically a less efficient, highly trained full Windrunner who eschewed Plate (which some were known to do) and Brandon still placed his bet on a full Mistborn. That's a pretty big mark of confidence, in my opinion. edit: New posts were added as I was typing. Apologies if some points were already addressed. edit2: Investiture interferes with Investiture. A Mistborn should be way harder to Soulcast due to all the metals they're burning. This is speculation, but I'd be surprised if it was possible (for all practical situations.)

Rather than tackle more complex question of distance, I just looked at it from how a normal person would perceive three times strength. Things would effectively weigh 1/3 as much when flaring pewter. Assuming Kaladin would weigh 190lbs on earth: 190*0.7/3 = 44.333 So the question is, could pretty strong regular person throw 45lbs (20.5kg) eight feet? Yeah, probably. Or at least somewhere in that ballpark. It's right around the size of a large weight lifting plate, and people throw those around all the time for exercises of varying degrees of ridiculousness. The sparring scene was described as the full strength of Plate and Zahel was pretty upset with Adolin, so it probably wasn't an exaggeration. I realise that this doesn't jive with the Dalinar digging scene, but there's reasonable explanations for this. The workers could have simply have had trouble lifting it due to the awkward shape and weighting of the hammer. Like Dalinar says, a man in Shardplate can do the work of twenty men, but they don't appear to have the strength of twenty men. Needing multiple people and hands always makes a process more difficult and awkward. Honestly though, I think the full strength of Plate, like pewter, wasn't fully canonized, so its strength is a bit variable at times. My gut tells me Plate is probably a bit stronger than pewter, but I don't think it's enough to provide a very significant advantage. Maybe this will change in the future if Brandon decides to give more exact measurements for these sorts of things.

I covered this topic a bit in the Roshar vs Fallen Empire thread, but that was about dead Blades and Plate vs a limited Mistborn. There's unfortunately some issues for this discussion, mainly due to a few factors: Which Order of Radiant is fighting? We know very little about most Surgebindings. We've never seen a Mistborn with access to the full range of metals so far (mainly Bendalloy and Chromium, but it's a big deal.) Because of this, it's hard to say. Many Radiants weren't even combatants, despite their powers. How can we tell how a Stoneward Knight stacks up against a Mistborn if we have no idea what their abilities are? Additionally, we've only seen Mistborn fight other metalborn, and that has a very strong effect on the combat. No metal weapons, no specialized projectiles, etc. I think the most important factor to mention here is how incredibly efficient all metal reserves are, and how long you can go if you swallow beads of metal. When performing a Pewter Drag, Vin and Kelsier consume five beads of Pewter, which allows them to flare for an entire hour. In case you forgot, Pewter was considered by far the fastest burning metal of the base eight. If I were to guess, I imagine this doctrine of low amounts of metal in powder form comes as a direct result of early generation Mistborn, which were much more powerful. You don't want such an easy anchor for another Mistborn in your stomach, even if they shouldn't be able to push it. Maybe Steel Savants could? Point is, this sort of thing is not an issue when fighting a Shardbearer, and if you have time to prepare, you will effectively have endless reserves to draw upon compared to your opponent. Other than that, it's a matter of the details and forces involved. How strong is Pewter vs Plate? I was reading a thread on my mobile that said WoB says they're actually comparable, but I didn't see a source given. If anyone has seen this, I'd appreciate a link. This seems to jive with what we've seen in books though: Remember that Roshar is 0.7g compared to earth. This is pretty strong, but it's not exactly Herculean, and not too dissimilar from what we've seen from Pewter flaring. I don't feel that Plate is going to give you a significant advantage in strength compared to Pewter. Additionally, I don't think a Mistborn is going to have significant issue cracking Plate by hitting it with Steelpushed objects. I don't have the time to pull up all of the examples, but the amount of force a Mistborn is capable of generating on an object is immense. While something like coins probably wouldn't work, something akin to a small cannon shot or horse shoes almost guaranteed will, which doesn't even mention the absurdity that is the Duralumin Steelpush. This gives Mistborn a large advantage in any ranged combat that they have time to prepare for. Personally, I think Windrunner without Plate would fare a lot better simply due to the usefullness of the Reverse Lashing in this regard. That being said, a Radiant is going to have significant advantages if the combatants know nothing about each other. Shards are weird. Radiant Shards even more so. I mean, a living weapon that can almost instantly become any shape and kills with a single touch? Metal you can't push on? Weapons that can't be stolen or dropped for long? I think a Mistborn would get pretty soundly wrecked if they tried to fight a Radiant in melee without knowing about these things. Meanwhile, a Mistborn is just a pretty strong and fast person who flies around. Nothing a Radiant would be terribly surprised by, nor be incapable of fighting. In the end, I think a Radiant probably wins if you just dropped the both of them on a field and they started fighting immediately. Not knowing the danger of Shardblades is simply too big a deal to ignore. That being said, I don't think this is a very realistic situation, and I give the Mistborn the advantage if the combatants understand the basics of one another's abilities and have any time to prepare. Really, when your options are: Use magic mindpowers to safely fight from a distance and wear down your opponent Try to fight an unstoppable murder sword in melee Which option are you going to gravitate towards?

That name was confirmed to be Discord, right? I remember it being a name for the Hero of Ages in the Terris religion.

This is possible, but it's a bit out of character for Suit, as his final confrontation with Wax showed he was more focused on Allomancy. He's limited to three "boons," two of which are Allomancy, not Feruchemy. At minimum, it means he's not just referring to Feruchemy when he says "boons", so it would be odd for Suit to go on a complete tangent about having other people store attributes for the Set and not even mention that he was talking about Feruchemy. Basically, I admit that it's possible that he's not talking about Hemalurgy, but considering that everything else he says is about Hemalurgy's limitations and why the Bands are better, it seems likely to me that that is what he's talking about.

This goes beyond simple minor details, or being mostly right though. This is the difference between whether or not your car needs gasoline to run, or if it just needs a little inside to function. The fact that Allik does not contradict this is incredibly important, and probably the single most significant obstacle for the theory as a whole. A simple "they might be lying or wrong" just feels flaccid when speaking of something so important. That being said, the fact that the characters pretty much explicitly said that you have to actively tap the Investiture does not necessarily mean the theory has to be thrown out for this reason alone. It could be that this is simply the "unsealing" required to get the process started, and then they continue tapping the Investiture from there. In the car metaphor, this would be the spark plug that ignites the gasoline. Or something. Basically, just because you need a Connection to tap doesn't mean you can use a medallion without Investiture. They need not be mutually exclusive. You may be conflating two separate things here. The context on Spook answers why he can hear Kelsier while Vin and Marsh cannot, despite them being closer to him personally. The context for Wax answers why Harmony appears to be so much better at speaking to Wax than Ruin was for his "followers," and there's actually a pretty simple answer to this. Wax literally worships Harmony and understands who he is, what he's about and if he's actually God. Of course he has a stronger Connection to him than random crazy people had to Ruin, who was just a voice or feeling in their head. This is not necessarily due to the fact that religious Connection is stronger, but rather that Wax's Connection is stronger. They share a theme of religious devotion, but that does not imply a causality. That was not how I interpreted this line at all, so I wouldn't consider it obvious. Full context: Consider the greater context of what Suit is saying here. He's describing the fact that, even though they figured out how to spike people for their abilities, or "make someone else be weak, while we gain the benefit," he cannot have more than three due to the limitations of Hemalurgy. It's even part of the same sentence, so he'd literally be going on a complete tangent for half a sentence. He then goes on to explain that the Bands could help them get around this limitation and are more powerful. If there was a theme to what Suit is saying here, it is about how Hemalurgy is limited and the Bands are not. In this context, it makes perfect sense for "making someone else be weak" to refer to spiking, and fits within the natural flow of ideas that he's presenting. But, even if this is wrong, even if, then this line could still refer to any number of possibilities other than an implication about special Connections. Off the top of my head it could refer to: Stealing things other than metalborn abilities with spikes Learning how to spike away powers without killing them Making others fill unkeyed metalminds Because of this, I find the idea that it is "obvious" that he is making others suffer instead of him, or that this implies a special Connection, to not be a very strong argument. It rejects a perfectly logical interpretation and then assumes a direct implication that I honestly don't see. Again, I don't think any of this is impossible, and am more arguing against the idea that any of this religious Connection stuff is directly implied, inside or outside of the books. I think I understand your thought process a bit better now though.

Alright, I've read the theory a few times now. There's some interesting ideas here that I find compelling, such as your thoughts on microsystems, Harmony using Ruin to fix Snapping, distinctions between Internal and External Connection, and some other things I forgot to list. That being said, I think there's some fundamental issues with the theory as a whole that are not addressed adequately enough to elevate it from simply interesting to genuinely compelling. I'm going to address them individually and in no particular order. 1) You do not need to tap Nicrosil to use a metalmind. This is directly contradicted by Wax and Allik in BoM: Wax specifically says you must tap the Nicrosil and Allik says he is correct. You can argue that Allik could be misleading Wax, or he himself does not understand it, or that nobody says they're tapping Nicrosil when using medallions, but the fact of the matter is that the theory is predicated on the idea that we are being deliberately mislead here. That is possible, but it is a fairly large jump to take as inherently probable. Additionally, as it's mentioned in the theory, it's actually very unclear on whether or not there's multiple Nicrosil rings in medallions with multiple powers: It's easy to go by this line and simply interpret it based on your initial impressions, but the characteristic lack of description in Mistborn means this can be describing two different scenarios: Wax is asking about a second Nicrosil ring, or he is asking about a third ring of an unknown metal and Allik explains that it is Brass, which is filled with warmth. This is important, because it doesn't tell us whether or not Nicrosil behaves like Tinminds, in that each individual sense requires its own metalmind, or a Coppermind, which can hold many individual, distinct memories. Unfortunately, WoB doesn't help us here. All that has been said on the matter is that you store each power individually, but you do the same with memories, and they can still share a Coppermind. It's not even a requirement for there being multiple Feruchemists, as it's confirmed that multiple people can store in the same metalmind even if their Identity interferes. Ultimately, this isn't that big a deal for the theory, just thought I'd bring it up. 2) Religious devotion as a key component My issue here is that you're reading very heavily into a single line and annotation, coming to a fairly radical conclusion. Once again, I am not saying this is impossible, but the basis of the theory is reliant upon how well this idea stands up to scrutiny. Unfortunately, this is simply one idea to explain what's happening here out of infinite possibilities. In that way, I feel it is not very convincing, even if it is compelling. For instance, it is entirely possible that Spook can hear Kelsier not because of some special feature of religious Connection, but because Spook has the right Connection. Spook sees Kelsier as a god and, for a time, he is. Via this daisy chain of deific worship, Spook has a greater Connection to Preservation, even though Vin and Marsh are more Connected to Kelsier personally. A subtle distinction, but an important one, and just one of many possible explanations. 3) The Set uses deific worship to store other people's attributes This section honestly came out of left field for me, as there's not even any indication that Templeton had Goldminds. Once again, it's heavily reading into a single line, and only makes sense in the larger context of your theory. It ignores simple realmatics that the Set obviously knows and could use (Hemalurgy, Compounding and Identity) in favor of a highly advanced use Connection that could have potentially taught them how to make medallions from scratch, if the theory is correct. In essence, this seems like a very complicated way to achieve something they could probably already do, all based on the description of one skinny, haggard woman. Rather than being internally consistent, it only exists as a means to support the theoretical idea that religious Connection is important and powerful. 4) Soulbearer Ferrings can tap Hemalurgical spikes This idea is cool, but it ignores what we understand about Feruchemy. For one, it would require you to tap metals other than Nicrosil, which is fundamentally problematic. I realise that this is based around the idea that Hemalurgy forms a Connection when spiked in, and the Soulbearer then taps this part of "their" spirit web rather than the metal itself, but spikes are still treated as fundamentally separate things from the person they're inside. Brandon describes it as soul "tacked on" rather than truly being a part of the person's spirit web, and thus I remain skeptical that they could innately tap and move this Investiture trapped in a different metal. Additionally, we have indication that just because Investiture is inside the right metal does not mean you can tap it. Brandon describes it as acting like corrupted sections of a hard drive. It is possible that Soulbearers are the exception here due to the nature of their power, but technically all Feruchemy involves Investiture already. I really like this idea, but have issues getting past idea that they can just innately tap other metals, even if they're connected to their spirit web. I have less issues with the idea that Soulbearers could move around Hemalurgical charges already inside Nicrosil though. I'm sure there was more I meant to cover, but oh well. May as well start from these points for now.

Alright, I've given this a full read, but this isn't the sort of post you can tackle without multiple reads. Initial response: I like it, but have some issues with the exact mechanics, and theorized abilities of the Set. Additionally, I feel the need to point out one glaring flaw. We have seen someone tap Nicrosil while using a medallion, though it was a bit of a special case in many ways: Wax and the Bands of Mourning. Now, this is indeed a special case, but the Bands have still been presented as essentially a medallion in nature. Thing is, I feel it is possible to reconcile this with your larger theory, though it may change the specific mechanics of medallions, if not the process or effect. What I think is important to consider is the fact that this is the only case of a medallion granting Allomancy, and it is also the only the only case where we are explicitly told they're draining the Investiture. Why is this? Well, my theory is based on this WoB: Basically, weaker Feruchemists suck at storing attributes. The example given is via Hemalurgy, but it's possible that this is a more general phenomenon. I theorize that, while they are bad at storing, they are no worse at tapping. This would make a lot of sense for the medallions we've seen, and why using the Bands of Mourning drains the Investiture inside. Under the logic of your theory, the Iron or Brass medallion forms a Connection with the wearer and makes them a very, very weak Ferring. So weak that if you store, you barely put any attribute in. For Iron, this could be considered a feature, as it means you wouldn't have to periodically dump the excess "weight" from the Iron ring. For Brass, it is possible that this does not have an effect on tapping unkeyed Heat. Same goes for unkeyed Connection. This is not possible with Allomancy. Being a weak Allomancer is not something you can trick your way around, as you'll be too weak to even Steelpush yourself off the ground, let alone Ironpull a ship out of the sky. This is why Wax needs to actively tap Investiture with the Bands, rather than simply rely on available unekeyed stores. Alright, back to rereads for a larger opinion on the theory as a whole.

Hmm? Is this referring to my opening paragraph where I say they're not used as soldiers? Or because of how I described Mistborn using underhanded tactics to take down Radiants? Either way, this wasn't really so much a commentary on whether or not they could fight them, and more a commentary on the fact that, due to their cultural and societal influences, Mistborn are not likely to just try to take them in a straight up fight. They'll play dirty, and the conflict and their power set rewards them for doing so, so their natural tactics favor them. Basically, I think a Mistborn could probably take anything Roshar fields in a straight fight, but I also think they have no reason or inclination to do so.

Chiming back in to say: this. I touched on it in my original post, but this bears further elaboration. Up to this point, Mistborn have been used almost exclusively as assassins, not soldiers. They're not going to simply line up with the rabble and give impassioned speeches, bravely challenging proto-Radiants to one on one duels. A Mistborn trying to kill a Radiant would probably involve baiting them into a group of Koloss to slaughter (or Skaa. Let's be honest, this is the Final Empire we're talking about) and unleashing as much deadly metal into the air as humanly possible, friendly fire be damned, from a safe position where you hid among the regular troops. Or, you know, killing them in their bed. Their tactics are fundamentally different, and I believe they're an important factor in this scenario. Regular troops are going to get slaughtered in this conflict by the very real threat of wizards coming to kill you. Scadrial has far more magic to throw around, and so anyone with Plate or Blade is going to be needed in every situation where you don't want your troops to just get completely cut down by coins. This is where Roshar has a distinct disadvantage: it's really hard to hide a six foot blade, crystalline armor or a flying glowing dude. Mistborn are going to know where most of their targets are at all points in the battle, whereas a Mistborn can be incredibly hard to spot doing their job if they want to. Even Spook, a Tin Savant, mistook the Citizen and his sister for which was a Coinshot, and they weren't even trying to hide. In a conflict that is so heavily weighted upon taking out key targets, this gives Scadrial a large advantage. Szeth really says it best: this power was not meant for assassins. I understand someone like Kal could be planted among the troops and go in for an ambush, but every moment they spend not affecting the battle is going to have drastic costs for the Rosharan forces, and they're almost guaranteed going to be engaging from a range anyway. This is even ignoring the very real possibility that Seekers could easily sense Radiants due to the fact that they use far more Investiture than metalborn. It's already confirmed that this is possible, I'm just theorizing that it would be easy. I just feel the discussion hadn't addressed this properly. Mistborn are not the equivalent of Shardbearers or even proto-Radiants: each and every one of them is an Assassin in White, and that's a whole different beast.

I've been thinking along these lines lately due to a line from Hero of Ages: The quote comes from Sazed post-Ascension, so he knows how this stuff works. There's an implication here though: could you reuse a single spike to steal attributes from multiple people and grant them all with the single spike? Sazed seems to be implying that you can grant more strength with a spike if you use it on multiple people. A single metal type steals multiple types of metalborn abilities. Can you use a single spike to steal each of them and grant them all at once? Atium can steal any attribute. Can you use it to steal every power and grant them all with a single spike? So many questions.

For pure combat ability, it's pretty hard to beat Steel/Steel. Iron is fairly useful for flashy, destructive uses like we've seen Wax do, but it's pretty hard to beat the sheer killing power of Steel compounding. Gold/Gold is unique in that it becomes more powerful as personal weaponry does: it's pretty hard to fight somebody with a fully automatic assault rifle/suicide bombs that aren't actually suicidal if you're not rocking something similar. That being said, I'd personally go for something a bit more theoretical: A-Pewter/F-Nicrosil. Full disclosure, this is working under the assumption that F-Nicrosil can be used to make you a more powerful Misting. If you look at Pewter, it honestly has a pretty absurd list of disparate powers: speed, strength, toughness, endurance, balance and healing. Its only real downside is that you only get a little big of each. Brandon has not canonized these things, but he pictures it as twice as strong baseline, three times as strong flaring. Let's just work under the assumption that every category is scaled similar to strength, so flaring adds two times your baseline stats. This means that if I could tap Nicrosil for Allomantic strength, I could theoretically become a 10x more powerful Thug, which translates to 20x my baseline stats being added. At that level of toughness and speed, it's going to be very hard to get a meaningful hit on me with conventional weaponry. Basically, this combination lets me become a pseudo-Ferring for multiple attributes, and a more powerful one at that. Then, even if I run out of stored Nicrosil, I'm still a Thug. This could theoretically have many uses outside of combat while also being strong in its own right. The other minor downside to this is that Pewter burns so quickly, and stronger Allomancers burn metals even faster. I think this has been fairly overblown though. When Vin and Kelsier perform a Pewter Drag, five beads of Pewter let them flare for an entire hour. Even if this meant I needed to burn metals at ten times the rate (it probably wouldn't, since stronger Allomancers are also more efficient) then that's still pretty manageable.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a WoB floating around that says they weren't taught to compound, though some may have figured it out. Or something. It would still be very useful for taking out dangerous targets like Kaladin, which was more my original point. I am not exaggerating when I say that this is probably more emotion than Jasnah shows in the rest of the book combined, including when she killed a bunch of dudes. This comes as a complete shock to her. If literally hundreds of ardents have used these devices over the years and all saw the Shadesmaer, I cannot imagine Jasnah being so surprised that Shallan has seen it, especially if she just spent an entire book hanging out with an ardent who theoretically could have told her. Nor can I imagine Jasnah not immediately determining how Soulcaster fabrials work after she started doing it on her own. I'd sooner expect Shallan not to draw than Jasnah not seek answers. I admit it is possible that Kabsal is still wrong or lying, but the pieces simply fit better if fabrials do not work the same. I'm sure there's at least some people who are varying degrees of aware, but it is not presented as common knowledge, and ardents are fairly common.