lastofus

20 hours ago, Ookla the Effervescent said:

I like your thinking...

...however, did you notice Rock says "chef" and not "cheif"? 

You're right, I misread it the first time. But because of the dialogue:

Quote

“Dead,” he whispered. “They raised weapons in vengeance.” She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safehand, in deference to silly Vorin traditions. “Then you—” “I am a chef now,” Lunamor said, firm. “But—”

Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 7582-7585). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Then you..., I am 90 percent sure that she wanted to tell him his new role, but Rock didn't want her to say it. 

If the Chief is dead and other possible candidates are dead too, and then you... ! are chief now.

OK, my first topic here, I hope I do it right.

I had a new theory about the whole Horneater businesses.

Don't you guys find it odd that the "Chief" wanted to acquire shards? We don't know if it's the first brother, first senior cousin, or something like that who can be the chieftain. But why the hell chieftain's try to duel with Shardbearers? They have no experience in dueling properly, let alone facing a Shardbearer. I think something is missing here. 

The roles of first and second brother is obtaining food, the third brother is to learn a craft (cooking for example). 

The servants of the chieftain is his family, we don't know how big his family was.

Quote

“What of Tifi and Sinaku’a?” she asked him. “Dead,” he whispered. “They raised weapons in vengeance.” She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safehand, in deference to silly Vorin traditions. “Then you—” “I am a chef now,” Lunamor said, firm.

Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 7582-7585). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

It doesn't make any sense that the older brothers had weapons "and they raised them in vengeance". Following the conversation, it's safe to assume that her wife wanted to know who is chief now. 

I only think of three reasons:

1. The ascension to chieftain is in reverse in the peak. The younger brother is chief, he has to have the ability to protect the village. So Rock actually lost his younger brothers, and if Rock himself dies, the second brother is chief.
2. The ascension to chieftain depends on the roles, first warriors, then craftsmen, then gatherers. The difference with the first one is that the Oldest warrior is chief, not the youngest one. 
3. Chief is exempt from the normal roles. If the first brother becomes chief, he cannot do the job that was assigned to him. Meaning that the 2nd and 3rd brother are now gatherers and the 4th one (Rock) is the craftsman. So the chief has to learn how to fight, how else could he protect the village, and challenge a Shardbearer? It also means that the names spoken by Rock were all in line to be chief, (that's why they picked weapons in vengeance) so in truth, Rock lost 3 chiefs that day.

Finally, I think that his Oath (or role) didn't count anymore. He was just deluding himself and bridge four. He CAN fight and should do so, but was a coward and decided to continue his cooking.

He hasn't broken his previous oaths, instead he didn't want to accept his new oath (role) of protecting his family. (He had named Kaladin and bridge four his family).

Quote

“I will make you all family for this. A peak dweller’s humaka’aban is his pride! I feel like a true man again. Here. This razor belongs not to me, but to us all. Any who wishes to use it must do so. Is my honor to share with you!”

Brandon Sanderson. The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 11322-11324). Tor Books. Kindle Edition. 

What he did, killing Amaram with Shard bow, was actually an act of accepting his new role. He became chief before being captured and he knew that, but instead he didn't want to fight. So he has some explaining to do, that was why he was in a corner thinking. 

Bonus: I really hope Rock becomes a Stonewarden, he probably think he doesn't belong to bridge 4 anymore. what a twist!

Bonus2: A shardbearer horneater chief? He is the king of the peaks now.

2 hours ago, vividox said:

Totally not book related, but how is it possible to read this book in 7.5 hours? Haha. I must be a super slow reader, or maybe I just like time to digest, but I'm doing well if I can cover 400 pages in that amount of time. 

One third of the book was already published on Tor.com. I got the book at 9:30 AM and finished it at around 9 PM

Ok I cannot read the whole topic again to see if it was mentioned. But did anyone notice Dalinar recognizing Szeth as a Skybreaker?

Quote

 

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.

Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22249-22250). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Did he sense Venli or Rysn? 

Odium cannot face Dalinar again, if he does, he have to name a champion, he's now bound by that. I really want to see him try storm-calling Venli again.

3 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

As I understand it, "You cannot have my pain." ist just a personalized, by chance directed-at-odium version of "I will take responsibility for what I have done.", so the former just might BE an oath; contrary to what @Calderis assumes.

I have BIG trouble seeing anything oath-y in 2 and 3, though, until somebody further enlightens me ;-)

 

@Michael Portz

I have some trouble finding the proper words as English isn't my native tongue, so I probably would do a bad job. Let's see if I can show my reasons.

Dalinar had a vision about Nohadon in which Nohadon was a surgebinder and actually talked to Dalinar in the end.

Quote

“You’ve said the oaths,” Nohadon called. “But do you understand the journey? Do you understand what it requires? You’ve forgotten one essential part, one thing that without which there can be no journey.” The monsters slammed fists toward Dalinar, and he shouted. “What is the most important step a man can take?”

It can mean 2 things:

1. Either it's something that all Bondsmiths experience. The thing only related to Bondsmiths that WoR (in-book) referred to. (Probably not. It's too generic).
2. Somehow, Dalinar's troubled mind created that experience (out of the book) to help him understand his path.

I think it's the second one. Which the message is that "if a man fall and don't rise again, his journey is at his end (Oathbringer preface)", which again means that "the most important step in your journey is always the next one", and so the oath, "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.", meaning that I swear to continue the journey no matter how many times I fall, the only thing that matters is that I will learn from my mistakes.

Is it not enough for an Oath?

36 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

I wonder if becoming Unity is 5th Oath to Bondmiths like becoming Law is 5th Oath of Skybreakers?

This book changed what I thought about Oaths. I thought one becomes a KR at Oath 3 and full Radiant at Oath 5 originally, but it looks for me more like this for this moment:
- 1st Oath - fortifies bond with spren, one begin becoming Knight Radiant
- 2nd Oath - you're not yet Radiant, but already Surgebinder fully bonded to spren
- 3nd Oath - you become KR, you receive your Shardblade for most Orders
- 4th Oath - that's where most KR end their progress, you possible receive Shardplate and increase in powers on that level
- 5th Oath - ultimate Oath, only few KR reaches this Oath, it's about becoming one with what your Order represents

I don't know where, but I remember something like "You cannot bypass the Oaths". So like for example, if you're a Windrunner, you have to first swear to protect everyone, then swear that you don't distinguish between who you should be protecting.

So, either Dalinar swore

all the previous Oaths, or the final one cannot be "I am Unity". And of course there's a chance that Bondsmiths only have 3 or 4 Oaths to say. So what do you choose?

As I've said previously, I think Dalinar spoke at least 2 Oaths, possibly 3. 

22 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@Beatsmorn For the 4th and 5th you can't take the Skybreakers as an example, as their mad Herald patron is preaching that you can't trust your own mind and judgement which goes completely opposite to what their 5th ideal demands. I can't say if in the past all Radiants got there eventually, but i'm sure it wasn't nearly as rare an event as the Masters made it sound.

 That mad Herald is actually swore the 5th himself. Even if he doesn't trust his mind to be the law, he will accept the choice he will eventually make.

Quote

"No man had ever united the entire continent—not during the Shin invasions,"

Later

Quote

"What about a charge of horses bearing men with spears, like the legends spoke of during the Shin invasion?"

In Oathbringer, there are some thoughts about Shin invasions. I could be wrong, or the written history is different from what actually happened. BUT I think that Shin tried once to conquer Roshar and were defeated. So they're not as docile as they seem to be.

Of course, there's a possibility that Shin Invasions is actually the first attack from humankind on the Dawnsingers. 

Anyway, I think one of the Siblings that are on par with Stormfather is the spren of Stone. And Shin people consider both Stormlight and Stone to be holy.

From all the various human races that came to Roshar, something happened to have only Shin stay in the place right? Are they a new race? What made that change? That's the real question for me.

That depends, Szeth will have to go to Shinovar. That's the whole point of having flashbacks. That's why we saw so little from Szeth in this book and only at the end. 

I think Brandon wanted to show us Szeth and then let him swear the 3rd Ideal to Dalinar (meaning we saw his flashbacks instead of Dalinar), but then decided against it. So it all depends on whether Dalinar wants his bodyguard, and a trainer in all surges OR wants the oathgate in Shinovar unlocked.

At the same time, Venli needs to break from Odium and join Dalinar. 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because he'd already said the first oath long before, in much the same way that we saw Kaladin do. 

When he says the first oath atop Urithiru, the Stormfather even tells him he's past that point if I remember correctly.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Or we should stop making assumptions. 

The Oaths are a matter of progression. A learning process. The "Cultivation" half of surgebinding. 

He said one oath. He will have to progress in his development and learn something else to say another. 

As far as "I am Unity" is concerned, he was touching the spiritual realm at the time. He was in contact with a place that time is non-existent. I believe this is foreshadowing for what the Shard of Honor will become once he reassembles it. 

That's just my opinion though. 

We see through the whole book that Stormfather became more aware, his thoughts weren't as primitive (black and white) as before. At the same time, Dalinar was questioning everything.

Nightwatcher didn't offer a boon/curse to Dalinar, it was Cultivation herself, and she made it so that Dalinar could remember it later. He even wondered why Cultivation wanted the memories return. When he broke free from the Thrill, he understood why. He could've ended his journey anytime he wanted, but he wouldn't be the person he is now if he did.

Everyone that could see the future (Cultivation, Odium, AND Renarin) knew that Dalinar will fall. And none predicted that he could ascend. Only Taravangian, predicted this in diagram (he wrote something for his future self about Dalinar and the champion). 

Anyway, I think that Dalinar both said the Words and had the intent. Plus, if you remember, Szeth didn't need anytime to say the 3rd Ideal. And Nale thought he could progress to 3 right away.

Talenelat'Elin, my favorite character. He reminds me of Sir Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning from ASoIF, the whole information about them can barely fill a page, nevertheless it feels enough.

Dalinar Kholin, the hypocrite, Blackthorn, Animal, Highking, He didn't kill a child even in bloodlust. I was as happy as Evi when I read it.

Kaladin, not enough, I really liked the way he forced the captain on Honor's Path, to free Syl, even his failure to say the words was masterfully done.

Jasnah, the Radiant! She's the only one with absolute control over her surges. I really don't like the wordplay from Alethi women but I can put them aside and only look at the bright side.

Shallan, the same thing as Jasnah, her insults sounds forced and artificial. But I liked everything else. I really loved Kholinar's scene, and Veil coming back to earth.

Adolin, really who can hate this guy? I kinda tried to hate him in the beginning of WoR. I loved his talks with his deadeye.. Maya. It was so beautiful.

Venli, I loved that our traitor wasn't Eshonai. Venli makes more sense, and everything about her was great.

To be honest, the only one that I hated was Moash, even Taravangian makes sense. Moash doesn't. He is so pitiful.

12 hours ago, NightFrost said:

Ok so end of OB we know that it requires the fourth ideal before a KR can get plate. Also we see two of our KR surrounded by spen Kal by wind and Dalinar by glory. This gives support to the plate is lesser spen theory. However I think there is something missing we know that spen can be cut by shardblades so armor made out of them would be useless. In less you change or add something to them. I believe based on the way plate behaves that it is made out of spen but then they are reinforced by stormlight condensing like water into the form of plate. This makes sense because since the blade is highly invested it would take something of equal power to block it. Also freebe plate color is determined by which gem the order a KR relates to. Like garnet for lightweavers which we see when Shallan creates Radiant during the battle of Thaylen City. "Radiant in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair." 

Hmm, I thought it was a given that the plate needs Stormlight to function. And you can kill a spren with shardblade (severing their spiritual connection or some other nonsense like this), but stormlight can heal those connection. Also, they need to feed Stormlight to "dead" plates to regrow them or make them functional again.

I haven't seen Jasnah shoving people from Adolin's vision. Can you point me to where you saw it? And I didn't see any Radiant wearing Shardplates in the fight. Am I missing something?

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that these are oaths... 

At the Portland signing, Brandon said that if you wanted a personalization, and weren't sure what you wanted, he was going to write the subtitle to the in world Oathbringer. 

"My Glory, My Shame" is the standard signing thing he's writing for this tour much as he did "Hands all red" for one of the Era 2 Mistborn books. 

And "You cannot have my pain" doesn't make sense as an oath. It wasn’t spoken as an oath, it was a rejection directed at Odium. 

These don't make sense as Bondsmith oaths. 

Hmm, you're probably right, but I still think these are Oaths. He, at least, swore 2 Oaths.

1. You cannot have my pain. I will take responsibility for what I have done.
2. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.
3. I am Unity.

Number 2 is probably to supplement the first one, so it probably isn't an Oath.

But from everything we saw before, (from the windsprens circling around Kaladin whenever he was on the verge of swearing the Fourth Ideal), you can show off something (like thrusting his arms ... ) before saying the words. So I think being Unity is an Oath.

I suspected that Dalinar at least swore 2 oaths at the same time. But now, there's a chance that he spoke 3. Depending on the number of oaths needed to speak, he may have done all of them. He actually ascended, and Stormfather was so surprised. What's more? Getting out of the mortal body? I don't think so.

1 hour ago, HarryKal said:

After so much wait...finally finished the book. Need to do a reread slowly to find what I missed the first time. 

Things I liked in the same order

1. Dalinar...wow just wow.. he is broken in so many ways but still the way held himself against Odium. 

2. Kaladin..i too liked that he didn't said the next ideal and saved everything all by himself. The scene where he froze in the middle of battle unable to decide what is right is really heartening 

3. Adolin...he proves to everyone that you can be a hero without being radiant. Also I think he will bring back his Spren alive.. already got the name.. 

4. Jasnah...both brainy and really can kick bad guys with style.. I really thought there will be something between her and Kal.. still not discarded that theory

5. Bridge 4... together they are good and can face anything with joking around

6. All conversation between the sword nimi and Lift or szeth

Things I have complaint about

1. Shallan..even though she is one of the main character there are lots of chapters with same kind of internal discussion between different avatars of her... also I felt like always she is able to achieve her goals without much difficulty 

2.  Moash...why do we need this??? It's similar to kaladin chapters from book 1.

3. Very less Kaladin POV.. many people are seeing kal as main protagonist of SA series...but in book 3 his POV is less

4. Many people from bridge 4 becoming radiant is too convenient

I am doing a re-read (first-listen?) with the audio book. It helps with most of the names that I couldn't pronounce, as I have read so fast that I just had the shape of them in mind. 

I have no comment on your likes, I agree with everything you said.

I absolutely hated Moash's chapters. But I don't think he'll be Odium's champion. I am with you on this, It's like Kaladin but from the other direction. Can he see what is wrong with his ideas or not, I don't know.

For number 4, It says that each order would see a surge in their numbers on desolations. Plus it's a lot easier now that they know what to look for. Kaladin had to figure it out all by himself, but Lopen told them to the the-one-handed-wanna-be-radiant Taylen right away.

Anyway did you guys see that the Skybreakers gave a shardblade to Heralan? He had became a squire of Skybreakers according to Mraize's letter, and he wasn't in any other secret order. So the only one who could have given the shards to Heralan were the Skybreakers. They think the same as Pattern. Syl hates everyone with shards, but Pattern and Skybreakers don't think so. 

55 minutes ago, saloninus said:

I saw on the wiki that a "confirmed but subject to change" Ideal is: 

"I will stand when others fall."

This could possibly fit?

4 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

This sounds like the Second Ideal of Skybreakers.

No, it has to be Stonewards. They are stubborn as storm. Talenelat always chose the worst place to fight, wining them against all odds and in most cases die in the process. 

Plus we already saw the second ideal of Skybreakers:

Quote

 

“I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal.”

Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Location 17161). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

21 minutes ago, brandondash said:

A few thoughts:

• Based on what we learned about the Skybreakers, the fifth ideal for each order is very difficult to achieve; as in, next to impossible.
• There is a reason the Stormlight heals everything but his slave brands. He feels like he's is supposed to have them.
• He locks up in the gallery when he watches first hand the effects of killing to protect, which is a perfect segway into...
• Lirin has been right all along.

I read it completely different. He already saw it, he already has done it. He killed Heralan to protect Amaram, killed Parshendi to protect Dalinar and his soldiers, killed/or tried to kill Szeth to save bridge 4 and Dalinar. He is the watcher at the rim.

What he saw was more about 2 groups of people who had no business fighting (A listener's group barely learning to fight overwhelming a group of guards who didn't want to fight but had to). In an ideal world he would've stopped both. 

So no, Lirin was not right.

18 minutes ago, brandondash said:

This leads me to theorize on not only the fourth ideal but also the fifth:

• 4: Acknowledgement that he cannot protect everyone - or maybe forgiveness for his failures. This will be a very dramatic scene where his brands finally heal. I think that's pretty clear based on Dalinar's story arc and not nearly as interesting to me as...
• 5: You cannot kill to protect.

I am now more toward the idea that the fourth ideal is about "not protecting a specific target". What happens when you have 2 groups with conflicting interest that you want to protect, you have to take a side. I've no idea what the actual word will be. 

And the 5th.. as I have said I don't support your theory. I think the 5th (or at least the final one) in both cases are these:

• Skybreakers: I make the law. I don't question the choice I made later.
• Windrunners: I define the right. I don't question the choice I made later.

5 minutes ago, Starla said:

I can't help but feel Kaladin's oath is something similar, and he's not ready yet to leave those people behind, especially with Tien on the list.

Haven't read Wheel of Time, but this could really be the case.

1 hour ago, JPark317 said:

So everyone now accepts that this is Taln for real even though Brandon has been referring to this character, for years, as “the man who calls himself Taln?” I have a hard time with that. I think there still may be more at play here than OB suggests. Also, Ash makes it clear she is still “getting worse,” as the Heralds all say, so I think she may be seeing what she expects to see, so to speak; there could still be something going on with “Taln.”

Stormfather, a picture from Hoid, and Ash all confirmed that he's Talenelat'Elin. Plus he himself recognizes Ash, tells her what a wonderful gift they have given to humanity. I think we can accept that he is what he claims to be.

Plus, didn't he feel the same as Ash when Jezrien died? Both felt unconscious. I am probably wrong but cannot check the book right now.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I was on the fence of Adolin reviving his blade or just being an awesome, nonmagical dude, but after seeing him interact with Maya, I am firmly in the revival camp. 

Welcome to the club xD.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

The Amaram "power up" felt weird. I always thought of Amaram as the "human" evil, to contrast with the supernatural stuff. 

Yeah it felt strange. Kaladin was probably lucky that he was mid-change or something. I have no idea what to make of it. It's, at least for me, the lowest point in the book.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

The secret behind the Recreance seemed underwhelming, since we'd speculated since the beginning that the parshendi/listeners/singers were the original inhabitants of Roshar. Odium being humanity's first god is terrifying though. What's really weird though is that surgebinding apparently worked on an entirely different planet without Honor or Cultivation... I don't think we're getting the whole picture here.

The whole Vorin Theology is upside down. There's no Tranquiline Halls, Dawnsingers were Singers/Listeners, Humanity are the voidbringers, The calling to be warrior is about invading not defending. They didn't win Aharietiam, in fact they were the cause of the first desolations. They just took the name for themselves. The only viewpoint form a religious person we see is Shallan. She had some conversation with the heretic (Jasnah) and to be honest after that she's kinda heretic herself. So we have no idea what the majority of Vorin culture thinks about that.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I'm not the only one thinking Timbre is Eshonai, right? I mean, the void spren said that the Fused were reincarnated listener heroes, and immediately afterward a weird spren shows up next to Eshonai's corpse? If that theory's true though, Venli is really weird. She's a listener who's bonded a void spren, but that void spren is being suppressed by her sister's soul spren, and she's also forming a Nahel bond with her sister's soul spren. Alrighty.

That spren was following Eshonai before, and then started following Venli. From their conversations Timbre told Venli about his grandfather dying in Recreance. He doesn't trust them. But from what Venli said in answer, Eshonai trusted them. 

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

Seriously though, Renarin being a blind spot to Odium is very interesting. It may be similar to atium, where two future-sights cancel each other out?

That's the best, and for some reason only Taravangian knows about it. Can he redeem himself or not.. . The ones that know Glys is corrupted won't trust Renarin and think he's the enemy's agent or something like that. 

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I think Dalinar did Ascend, but whatever he is now is much less powerful than Honor or an actual Shard, but still has an Intent: Unity. Wasn't there a popular theory floating around that Splinters have their own Intents?

I think we're going to have multiple powerful individuals instead of one powerful entity like Sazed. It'll make things more fun.

My thoughts.. the Everstorm is different than the last desolation, Honor is dead, Oathpact damaged, the Listeners can break. Humanity can be forcefully bond to unmade or His spren. We don't know how did that happen, but in the end, everything is changing. 

I really love to see Rlain become a windrunner. I hope one of the listeners that Kaladin talked to kill Moash. I hope that the dustbringer defects from the diagram. 

In Dalinar's dreams, Sadeas was a sick dude. He was definitely the other Odium's champion. Thank the Almighty that Adolin killed him. By the way, Ialai in Odium's camp? She has no place to go now, and she's a dangerous woman.

Someone is Ghostbloods wanted Amaram's blood, they tried to kill him at the end of WoR, what will happen to that person? From the prologue, Gavilar had a meeting with Sons of Honor (because Meridas Amaram was there).

Quote

surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.

I guess we can determine that the old man was Restares. So there are at least 4 elite members left from Sons of Honor. What would they do?

14 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I get the feeling they should have done something similar from the start. SF says that they could share the burdens of Damnation with each other because of their bond to the Oathpact, but if all the Heralds are being tortured, I don't think it works well. A single Herald would be sharing their pain with the other nine, but also receiving some of the pain of the other nine. They're essentially playing a zero-still game.

 

I don't think you can add it to each other. For me it looks exponential. 1 person can have 10 torture points. 2 persons have 20 (separately). But if they join in they resist 10^2 = 100, etc.... .

Just now, SLNC said:

Oh... I think you're reading too much into this. He's just describing his feelings about it.

Maybe that's because I am not a native English speaker. But I find it strange, I feel sad, but I do not find sadness in me, Does it suppose to make it poetic?

Anyway I have to read the whole series again to see how Kaladin talked about his feelings.

Just now, SLNC said:

What do you mean by attuning?

attuning to Rhythms, like the listeners.

Hmm guys, need help. Am I reading too much into this?

I think Kaladin is just some steps from attuning .. 

I heard that one of flashbacks would be Talenel'Elin.. I cannot wait to know more. But man, how did he do that..

10 Heralds sharing the pain through their bonds, they could've taken much torture than a normal human. I don't know how much... But through sheer will for 4.5 thousand years he stood, alone. I am speechless. And what does he do when he finds out? Check outside to see the world... you helped them progress you saved them, thank you for sacrificing me... I mean the storm! 

• I will defend/help anyone who asks for it.
• I will accept casualties to save more people.
• I will let myself be helped, I cannot do everything alone.
• I won't be ashamed to lose, I will stand up again.

I think any of the above can somehow be the 4th ideal. I will re-read the whole book and think on it more. The best thing is that Kaladin already knows it, he just can't say it. Maybe the journey to active it is above the wording or finding an interpretation of it that feels better than the rest.

I really wanted a Stoneward in Highmarshal Azure. I really hoped her to be a Radiant. Can't say I am happy with Vivenna ..

Storm you Moash, to damnation with you. I really hope you get what you deserve from Odium, you have to feel that betrayal. Kal nearly was destroyed.. Elhokar dead and he was so close... .

damnation I didn't want Kholinar to fall... .

8 hours ago, dionysus said:

2. I also concur with others that there is no way that is the sole reason for the Recreance. We have been told on several occasions, by heralds even, that without Honor to regulate the surges they are extremely dangerous. I think this is world ending levels of danger and we don't know the full story on that. Our main characters basically shrug off the revelation of the long-ago guilt of humanity, and I think that is a normal reaction. So my theory is that you had a combination of 1) revelation humanity is not historically the good guys, 2) revelation that your existence does in fact endanger Existence, and 3) Honor, according to the Stormfather, was in the process of being splintered and was raving and adding to the Radiants confusion.

3. The name of Odium definitely does not encompass all he is. He seems to be all emotion but with a particular focus on hatred. Also the feeding or absorbing of emotion, is that just how he entices people are is that inherent to his shard?

2. I think you're wrong. Kaladin told Syl that discarding blade and plate was kind of ceremonial. Without the listeners to fight they had nothing going forward. They lost their vision. They didn't have any reminder of the dangers and the relative safety of humankind. Only Skybreakers remained BECAUSE there's still law to follow. I could be wrong of courses.

3. I don't think Odium is hatred. It sounds more like fate, or will. The creatures are all instruments of the God, everything we do is foreseen and foretold. We don't have a choice and cannot change our path. Everything we do is because of the God. I don't really buy Odium having the shard of Hatred. I think it's more Determinism or Fatalism, probably the former.

Changed my mind to undecided, but what the hell is wrong with him? Asking for Determinism or Fatalism? How can hatred be a void? It's already an emotion. This doesn't make sense. And of course I am pretty sure about Determinism, he tells Dalinar that it's all his fault. Amaram is free of guilt because he had no choice... .

@Argent

Now that we know about Renarin, can you point out to what you had figured out before but wasn't allowed to say? 

Come to think of it, this book didn't satisfy me really. There's so much unknown and the Theylen city fight was ... unfulfilling. I could've died with Kaladin scenes or Adolin, Maya, Taln (Almighty why...), specially the part where Stormfather weeped. Really I cannot pick anyone who wouldn't emotionally drained me, But I got taken away from all of them.