Jazzy Kandra

On 6/30/2021 at 11:02 PM, honorblades said:

We know for certain that cognitive shadows, unless other preventative or restorative measures are taken, can become 'insane' due to the length of time that they have been alive as well as their very nature as Cognitive entities. We see this with the Fused: they have been alive for so long that they are slow to change and adapt. They seem to become more like spren as time goes on, which is to say that they gravitate towards an "Intent" and find it difficult to deviate from that. The Pursuer is a good example of this: his entire purpose and drive is vengeance. 

We also see a peculiar type of insanity with the Heralds, in that they seem to be affected by how living people (Physical entities) think about and view them. This, again, is similar to spren, which are concepts given form. We do not know the exact nature of the Heralds' insanity, but they each seem to act inversely to their supposed divine attributes. Kalak, known to be resolute, becomes indecisive. Shalash, patron of the arts, destroys artwork of herself. Jezrien, the leader, becomes a homeless drunk. Ishar, a spiritual leader, thinks himself to be a God. 

I'm of the opinion that there are a few extra things effecting the Heralds. First, they did break their Oaths, which probably runs counter to their Intents. Two, they are probably also deeply effected by the fact that Ba-Ado-Misham [BAM] is out of commission. The Sibling says that BAM being captured damaged all the souls which belong to Roshar. That includes the singers, fused, and spren. It probably effects the Heralds too, and did something to mess them up (even more than before). I think the fact that Ishar is most injured is a good sign that this is actually related to damaged bonds and connections more than anything else. So, their current 'insanity' might be, instead, a combination of broken oaths, the injury done to their Bonds/Identity due to the BAM episode, and their antiquity/nature. But, personally, I think their age and nature are the smallest contributing factors to their current state of being.

Thaidakar, though, wasn't injured by BAM. And well, he didn't break any oaths, either. And while he is a CS, he's a pretty new one, so it's unlikely to have effected him much. I think his problem is more likely being stuck, and maybe being unhappy with how he's Connected to Scadrial and its influence on him. But, I don't think he's actually any more 'insane' than before, just a sociopath, ha.

As Spook once said, "goop". Thus, I'd be goop.

If no one is recording this, we do have a few WoBs from @PatrickDiomedes for this event.

http://patrickdiomedes.tumblr.com/post/180161972309/so-i-wasnt-able-to-ask-much-at-sandersons

To be blunt, this isn't a theory, or if it is, it's about as well constructed as a house made out of sand. Anyway, due to a recent WoB and discussion on discord, I've decided that to really investigate some issues surrounding the creation of the Bands of Mourning, I needed to post a topic (which Calderis is probably going to attack, hi Cal!).

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Kelsier is bound to Scadrial the same way that a spren is bound to Roshar, because of the level of Investiture and the type and the way it happened. It is possible to get offworld but he does not know what it is.

 

source  

At first glance, this WoB doesn't seem that problematic (and in fact, it doesn't seem to relate to this topic at all). Yes, it basically means that despite holding the power of Preservation and having three hundred plus years to figure it out, Kelsier hasn't actually figured out how to get off-world. Ironic. Such a smart idiot (I think someone might be a bit too "well-connected", if you catch my drift). Anyways, this presents some issues with Kelsier creating the Bands in Era 1.5 (Early Elendel History).

Logistics

Yes, the usual theory is that he just created new spikes (or Marsh) and used old Inquisitor spikes. However, there's a few...well many problems with this train of thought. In the Cataclysm, the Inquisitors killed all the Full Feruchemist. Second, no new Full Feruchemists were born in Era 1.5 due to the lack of Full Feruchemists and that the few Terrispeople intermarried with regular Scadrians, leading to the creation of Ferrings. This, of course, means that logically, there are not enough Ferring children to make new spikes with, plus, despite that Kelsier is a psychopath, he seems adverse to killing children (even noble children, as seen in SH), thus, it seems unlikely that he would create spikes from young Feruchemists...

This is important because, while there are indeed Inquisitors containing Feruchemic powers, these would not, and cannot, contain those powers that were unknown to the Inquisitors in Era 1. Marsh would not know of them either. While you could "supplement" this lack, I suppose, with spikes made from young Ferrings, I think that Kelsier is very unlikely to do this (and I think that Brandon would find this idea too dark, anyways). Thus, we land on the conundrum, to make the Bands, Kelsier probably did not only use spikes, thus a different method was most likely used... It therefore is likely that beyond the eyespike, few spikes were used in the creation of the Bands, thus, I believe that other 

Solutions (or something)

Originally, my theory boiled down to the idea, that, well just because there are no Full Feruchemist on Scadrial (beside Sazed...technically), does not mean there are no Full Feruchemists in the cosmere. Thus, if Kelsier worldhopped, he could have found one of these Full Feruchemists and "helped" them make the Bands. There is more to the solution (like how to construct the Bands with two different people and stuff), but this isn't that theory (which might still be possible, but that's irrelevant). Because of the new WoB though, this seems like an unlikely solution, unless a an off-world Full Feruchemist came to him.

So, since this option is no longer viable (and that theory is died a sad, sad death)...I offer four alternatives, based on the idea that Kelsier was involved with this process (according to this WoB). This means that Rashek did not make them, because he's dead and gone, literally. I do not support any of these options completely, instead, they are merely "ideas" that might work to explain how the Bands were created (without actually describing the process because that's a whole-topic-and a-half).

1. Kelsier consumed Harmonium, somehow, despite its tendency to react when it touches liquid due to its Spiritual makeup and gained the power of Full Feruchemy. Obviously, there are some issues with this idea, however, Brandon has said that it does something, but RAFO-ed what it did exactly (WoB).

And thus, one solution is that Kelsier has burned Harmonium and gained the ability to use Feruchemy, thereby letting him make the Bands all by himself. I don't really like this idea, because being "involved" sounds like he helped. This could, though, just be Brandon being vague, of course...

2. Kelsier made himself a Full Feruchemist while he was holding the power of Preservation. Yes, this seems...insane, but there is precedent for this idea. When Rashek grabbed the power in the Well, he made himself into an overpowered Mistborn. He did not eat Lerasium like we originally thought (WoB). Furthermore, Feruchemy comes from Preservation, and is a give that Preservation apparently gave the Terrispeople (WoB). This one is thus possible, but just seems uncool and boring, but because Kelsier is an unreliable narrator and loves to keep secrets (WoB), it can still work, I think. I would just be kind of sad of sad if it's the correct answer...

3. Sazed helped Kelsier construct the Bands. While Sazed did not help Kelsier get a new body (there is a WoB somewhere, I think, but I can't find it, I'll provide it later), there is nothing saying that he wasn't involved in the creation of the Bands, however. This would help solve the problem of "why didn't Sazed help the Southerners" to some extent because by helping to make the Bands (or even, providing Kelsier with the tools, somehow, to make them). Even if his solution of "I can't mess with this direction without messing things up worse, thus, I'll send Kelsier to help instead" wasn't a very good one. This one could work, but one wonders why Sazed didn't just make the Bands himself in this case... Thus, it seems implausible.

4. The Bands were made later on, after the creation of the medallions. I haven't too much to say here, other than that this is what @Calderis supports. I don't believe it's correct, but I would rather Cal provide a few more details on this theory first, than trying to refute it here and now.

Anyway, other solutions are welcome, of course. This topic is mainly for discussion, however, please don't suggest that Kelsier is using Spook's body. That, guys, has already been disproven. (WoB)

I really like that new wob, I feel like I could use it in a completely different topic (that is basically unrelated to Forgery beyond Connection and Identity...*flips medallion*) xD

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I mean, if your going all hemalurgic army I doubt this is a bother to begin with, but the biggest problem I can see is that you still have to spike someone, and that's probably going g to kill them. 

Per the first wob, once the investiture is in the spike you've tricked the system and it's probably not going to revert, but you still have to write a stamp particular enough to each person you spike that it holds at least well enough for you to be able to spike them. 

If the stamp fails quickly enough that the ink stays wet, I doubt your going to be stealing anything other than a person's life. 

Yeah, I feel like while this is "easy" from a technical point of view, creating each stamp for each individual is going to be difficult (you have to figure out at least enough about their Connections and Identity to make even a temporarily workable stamp). Plus, forgery is a rare art. This might be something that people in Silverlight experiment with for science, but I can't see it being all that useful for most regular users of hemalurgy... Thus, you have the efficiency problem. It might be easy compare to other systems on a technical level, but it would be inefficient and time consuming, too. Better to ask if you could steal the powers (when tapped) from a medallion than if you could spike someone (when stamped) for those powers. Ultimately, though, if might be better to just farm a metalborn who can get a high degree of healing (a Radiant metalborn, someone who can temporarily tap gold, etc). That way, you can have as many spikes as possible and be able to spike them even more...

So, while this is plausible, there are better methods to bake more cookies, so to speak.

Honestly, the bigger question, I think, is how they found out about Hemalurgy in the first place. Who told them that you can make spikes from Allomancers/Ferrings to get their power? While the obvious answer seems like "maybe Paalm", I don't think this is it. She, herself, has a tampered spike using a metal from a foreign Shard. I also think that they have been making spikes for a bit after the Prologue of AoL (this places the start of their experiments a few years before BoM). So, I think that the logical conclusion is one of these: 1) they got a hold of Spook's book somehow and learned to create spikes using it; 2) they learned from someone who knows how to make spikes, such as Kelsier or Spook (these are just examples); and/or 3) they learned to make spikes by capturing and using torture to get information from the Southerners (note, a warehouse takes several months--even years--to build, and the warehouse in Bands is huge, thus they may have held the Malwish prisoners for a very long time).

Anyways, to address your theory. I think it's far more likely that the spikes are created from Allomancers and Ferrings outside of Elendel. Since Wax, Wayne, and Marasi were only interested in keeping the people of Elendel safe for the last three books (even Bands), they would not look into mysterious murders in the cities or countryside beyond Elendel. Plus, the Elendel Basin (and the Roughs beyond it) is just too big for three people to track down every mysterious death they hear about. It's just logistically impossible. Plus, they probably wouldn't even think about it because they're concentrated on the big city. Now that Marasi is aware of it, I think her forensics research might take her to looking into mysterious deaths beyond Elendel itself after BoM, or at least it should, logically. Where else to look but the countryside from which the Set is recruiting it's army, anyways?

I've been summoned from the great abyss to add something here. It's your lucky day, guys.

On 6/18/2018 at 5:08 PM, Calderis said:

@Jazzy Kandra brought it up in a discord conversation mirroring this topic, but the only one we know of is horse racing.

Suit apparently liked it if his supposed wasted fortunes on gambling according to the butler can be trusted (which I don't, it sounds like a cover for funneling money to the set), and after the failed first wedding, wax allowed his driver time off to "spend the day at the races." 

Yeah, to add to this, a lot of the leisurely activities in Era 2 seem to be things that the middle and upperclasses can afford, while their working class and poor don't have much beside pubs and, maybe, Soothing/Rioting parlors (I think these are more middle class and up, though) and races, as well as religion. At least this is the case at the communal level since you do have cheap newspapers and stuff like that. Operas, plays, and concerts, though, are generally things that the middle and upper classes can afford. And, depending on the type of horse racing we're talking about and the venues these races are set in, they might be mainly a middle/upper class activity as well since some were/are that way in real-life too, but we don't know enough about Scadrian horse races to know what kinds there are (and there could be multiple)...except that Suit enjoyed them, and I can't imagine Suit going to a dirty venue. But the thing with Scadrial is it hasn't had it's leisure revolution yet despite that it has had the industrial revolution (in our world, both happened at the same time in the US), that, and the renewed wealth disparity between classes is kinda why living in Era 2 would suck. This last point is kind of a major reason for certain plot points in Era 2...which means I wouldn't want to live there given a choice.

All that said, I'd love living on Scadrial...a little after Era 3. By then, they will probably have had their leisure revolution, I hope. I'd love watching the Metalborn (Olympic) Games and dancing. I think once they get their stuff figured out and insta'noodles, internet, and such things are available, it should be fun. That, are maybe Sel around Era 3 Scadrial... I kind of like the conveniences of modern life I guess. xD

In-cosmere, which character is writing on the art displaying the different Vorin wines? If it's Nazh, what is his tattoo of?

(since that isn't Shallan's handwriting...)

I have been called forth from the abyss because there are things which need to be brought to light.

Or rather, to point out something important to this discussion (as it's ventured off into this direction). I'm a big Adolin fan, I was looking forward to his arc in this book (what will happen to Adolin, will he be exiled or hung for his crimes???), but I, perhaps surprisingly, wasn't disappointed. You do not speak for all Adolin fans, @maxal. Many from tumblr liked Adolin's arc, even though it was "sparse" and less important than others in this book...but I do not believe it was, actually. In fact, I think how Brandon played it was brilliant and unexpected and good, and so do many other Adolin fans...

There is one major consequence a lot of people seem to have forgotten: the battle of Thaylen wouldn't have gone so badly had Adolin not murdered Sadeas. If he hadn't, it's far less likely that the Sadeas troops would've been sent to Thaylen City (to help in its reconstruction) and Amaram would've been influenced into wanting revenge for Sadeas' death. Nearly loosing a battle is a major consequence. No, Adolin didn't experience it directly, but I expect in the next book, he will yet be dealing with the repercussions of murdering Sadeas. There are still two more books in the first set of five...I expect that like Shallan's split personalities, Kaladin's depression, and Dalinar's compulsions (alcoholism, most likely), Adolin won't escape this plotpoint. Ialai won't let him. But it's just one of those threads which isn't over yet and probably should not be over in one book. However, Oathbringer would not BE the book it IS if Adolin had not murdered Sadeas, even though the consequences of his actions have not effected him directly yet (though they almost did, everything was still nearly lost in the Batte of Thaylen City including his dad who was nearly Odium's Champion, you know...that seems like consequences to me, at least).

At the end of the day, however, this is Dalinar's book. Dalinar accepting that Adolin was not the man he thought he was, but still a man on his own journey (who like Dalinar, could overcome his past mistakes) is a major development for Dalinar, too. I think the Dalinar of WoK would've felt he needed to exile or hang or somehow severely punish Adolin for his crimes, but the Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer understands what it is like to be imperfect and broken, and not live up to one's ideas, but being allowed to become a better man despite the man that he used to be. Thus, Dalinar wants this kind of redemption arc for his son too, and it makes since that Dalinar would take a third option instead and not punish Adolin for his actions because of the man Dalinar is becoming...

In short, though (and to get off this tangent), there are a lot of Adolin-fans who saw this arc as satisfactory. A character doesn't have to have a ton of screen time (or PoVs, since Adolin pretty much shows up in every major arc in the book and probably is in it as much as he's in WoK and WoR) to make good use of the screen time...but at the end of the day, this book is Brandon's book. Not ours. We do not get to dictate the story he chooses to tell just because we're unhappy with some the results...

---

Anyway, to get back on topic. There are many who were happy to see how his relationship developed with Shallan as well. Like when he shows that he cares about her in rather selfless ways (asking about her cycle, his concern about her well-being on the ship in the CR, and he LISTENS to her and her problems on the ship, too) were all points in his favor, if you ask me. They worked to show that Adolin cared deeply for Shallan as a person, despite her faults and her dissociative tendencies. I was honestly satisfied with this romance, probably because it's my favored ship and I liked how Brandon dealt with it.

I frankly have no idea how to respond to this, Joe, you have rendered me speechless...

Because you're right. Think about it! Indeed. He's even fighting a goddess who is basically the Mom-Shard. A++ theory if you ask me. xD

9 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

My understanding of a sliver, which could be wrong, is that a sliver is a cognitive shadow that has held enough investiture to resist the pull to the great beyond, so I can see how my misuse of words was very confusing. I think the realmatic explanation for a sliver is that holding that amount of investiture causes an expansion of the vessels spirit web and anchors the spirit web to the object that the shards investiture has been invested in (so for Kelsier's case this would be the planet and people of Scadrial because that's where Preservation's investiture was invested). Vin and Elend both could have become Slivers if they wanted to, but they were content with what they had done in life so they went to the Great Beyond.This has probably been mentioned on another Thread, but I think with Kelsier moving through the Cognitive realm, it's highly likely that he will assemble the component splinters of Devotion, Ambition and Honor to become a new shard with a new intent, Survival.

 

A Sliver is any person that has held a (large portion) of a Shard and let it go. Basically, if you held enough to Ascend like Dalinar does in Oathbringer, you're a Sliver. So, this means that Rashek, Vin, Kelsier, and Dalinar (most likely) are what we call Slivers. Most Cognitive Shadows are not Slivers, most Cognitive Shadows are Splinters, which is a totally different thing. It just means that they have a very large junk of Investiture, Dalinar is a Sliver but not a Splinter. On the other hand, Kelsier is both Splinter and Sliver, technically, because he's a Cognitive Entity (CS) made of Investiture, and has held a Shard.

For a quick definition of CS we got this now:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Will we ever see protagonists ever come back? ...Once they're, like, dead and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, there's a couple rules for people coming back in the cosmere. If you could be revived by CPR, you could be saved. If you can't be revived by CPR, only a direct infusion of Investiture immediately to the soul will turn you into a Cognitive Shadow. Those are your two kind of outs. I'll leave it at that for you, and you can see where it goes from there.

Source: WoB

While it's true that CS are, according to the in-verse definition, basically petrified Investiture, I think this term is actually being used for two related but different phenomenon in the cosmere due to a certain bias that's common among scientists [arcanists] towards things like ghosts and the supernatural (this doesn't mean they're all atheists, just that they're more prone to be skeptical). Things like the Emperor's Soul (Ashravan's copy), the Shadows in Silence, and the Returned (they're more of a mix, though), fit the in-verse definition quite well. Ashravan's copy is indeed a Forgery made of Investiture using the real Ashravan's Connections. The Shadows could be something like the Spiritual Webs of people thrusts into the Physical Realm where they decay like they normally do in the Spiritual Realm after a person dies, but are doing this process wrong and on a different plane. The Returned are like Endowment-created Lifeless (which, I think, are also technically Cognitive Shadows, just very poor ones) given different Commands based on their given names (Lightsong, Warbreaker, etc), but do not remember their past lives while still possessing their old abilities (much like manmade Lifeless, but far more sentient). Then there are other Cognitive Shadows that don't really fit into this idea as well. I think these include the Fused, the Heralds, and Kelsier. The definition given by this newer WoB doesn't contradict the older one, but it allows, I think, for the argument that in some cases, a Shard infuses a person or group of people with Investiture, allowing them to exist after physical death, instead (I'm working on an actual theory about this, but it's not ready at this time...) xD

Hmmm, for some reason this feels like a blast from the past, somehow. Kandra proposing another worldhopper...sigh. Bad kandra. However, this is not the first time someone has mentioned it, but with the new Kaladin flashbacks in Oathbringer, I would like to again propose a simple idea: Tukks was indeed a worldhopper, but with new evidence.

Originally, this idea was mentioned in Way of Kings when Kaladin's drill sergeant (Tukks) advised Kaladin thus:

Quote

The first step is to care, Tukks’s voice seemed to whisper. Some talk about being emotionless in battle. Well, I suppose it’s important to keep your head. But I hate that feeling of killing while calm and cold. I’ve seen that those who care fight harder, longer, and better than those who don’t. It’s the difference between mercenaries and real soldiers. It’s the difference between fighting to defend your homeland and fighting on foreign soil.

WoK, 435. In which Tukks, oddly, uses soil in a way that Rosharans do not.

However, what's more proof is Kaladin's description of him in Oathbringer, which fits the descriptions used for other worldhoppers from Sel and Scadrians (to some extent):

Quote

Sergeant Tukks walked to one of the bunks and settled down, the wood groaning under his weight. Younger than the other sergeants, he had features that were …off somehow. Perhaps it was his short stature, or his sunken cheeks.

Oathbringer, 869-870

Other worldhoppers, like Felt and Iyatil are described as short, and while Kaladin doesn't notice that kind of detail here, he does think there's something off about Tukks such as his height. Perhaps something non-Alethi and foreign. I think that while this isn't really all that near to 100% proof that Tukks is a worldhopper, it's maybe enough now to ask about (and I know others have mentioned it before).

At least I'm not using coats this time, eh?

58 minutes ago, Stromblessed said:

Yeah we've always been told Jasnah is cold , and emotionless and this made it all the more believable that she might indeed kill Renarin . I think this what character progress is for her.

I was more surprised that it would, because in every scene we see her interacting with Renarin, she always treats him with kindness (despite that she's suspicious of him). It seemed to me that she didn't want to be right about Renarin binding a corrupted spren tied to Odium, I know I didn't want to be right about that guess, but yes. I loved that scene. There were a lot of good ones like that one, and a lot of sad ones, too...

I think though, my favorite scene was right before Dalinar Ascended (I think he's technically a Sliver now...), when he finds that gloryspren in his hands and then tells Odium "You cannot have my pain." It's so good. Dalinar grows so much in this book, and his flaws are much more front and center than they were in WoK and WoR. He can now, I think, bear his pain, and he's finally the person Evi believed that he could be.

I guess that's why he's my favorite character in Oathbringer (and SA), too.

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

She was mentioned in the first two books and was in a flashback in the third. That will lead somewhere, the question is where.

I personally like the idea of Tarah as a Kaladin's romantic partner (again) since I don't believe that every romance has to be a major plot point. It's not central to every character, and Kaladin values other things, like his families: by birth, Bridge 4, the Kholins, and Syl. These people and his love (of a different type) are central to his arc, they're what matters to him and they are the people he wants to protect most of all. His father-son relationship with Dalinar is central to the plot of Oathbringer, he wants to protect him again and that's what drives him through Shadesmar...

I guess what I'm saying is that while Kaladin is completely able to fall in love and feel attraction towards others, that is not that important to his character arc. So, I don't see it as playing a central role.

However, if...I guess my favorite ship is Azure x Kaladin, but Vivenna is a worldhopper and probably too old for him, though personality wise, they work. They're shown to be a lot alike, and worldhoppers are weird anyways age-wise so I don't apply the same age limits to people like them...

4 minutes ago, I am Witless said:

Or is it that fewer girls are diagnosed than boys because there have been few to zero studies of female aspergers? Female aspies are also less noticeable than male because they are less likely to go "train-spotting". Their behavior doesn't stick out as much because they focus on more socially acceptable things (like a boy-band) than males do (train-spotting, obsession lego building). Female aspies also imitate different persona's to fit in with the crowd. I'm not talking slight changes in interactions between friends and employers, I mean huge transitions, like Shallan skipping between Veil and Radiant. Jasnah, as far as we've seen, seems to be pretty constant in who she is and who she views herself to be, so I'm not sure about her being an aspie. Jasnah does focus pretty heavily on her research, but that heavy focus can be passed off as her occupation. If Jasnah is autistic, I think that she has either used a crapload of self control to beat the "strangeness" out of herself, or she recluses herself away so that not that much of it shows.

Eh. That can be the case, but once again, it depends on the aspie or girl with autism. My sister doesn't change personas, and I've also known other girls on the spectrum who don't. To name someone from the cosmere who doesn't fit into that idea, Steris is pretty solid, even though she practices jokes and things to fit in. We don't see her changing personas, and she's actually hyperaware of her differences...

9 minutes ago, aemetha said:

This is an astute point. Diagnosing an ASD in women is absolutely more difficult in females than men because the symptoms women present are quite different and more in conformity with societal norms. I do also know several women that meet this definition. My personal definition hinges more on the point that Jasnah's social withdraw according to the POV aspects and observations of her behaviour is more the result of conscious choice rather than impairment. She makes her choices knowing she will be ostracised for them, not because she is not capable of the social interactions necessary to fit within societal norms. ASD is largely not viewed as a handicap overall, but it is a misnomer to assume that a sufferer is as capable of applying societal norms to their circumstance as a more normally ordered person. The may well exceed at aspects such as numerology and mathematics, but impairment occurs in issues such as social interactions. This is not a choice for someone on the ASD, but it is a choice for someone metally disordered along the OCPD spectrum.

I understand, but I'm forced to agree. As again, the amount of social impairment that a person has in an ASD depends on the person. Some nearly have none, and in the case of a diagnosis like PDD-NOS which can include a diagnosis with minimal to no social impairment at all.

Though, really, the only way to know for sure is either via WoB or...in twenty years when we get her flashbacks.

8 hours ago, aemetha said:

I think Jasnah is a good fit to the symptoms of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not to be confused with obsessive compulsive disorder), except that she (from what we've seen) doesn't meet the criteria for significant impairment or distress to be diagnosed with a mental disorder. I think it's a better fit than Aspergers because Jasnah, while obviously not being particularly sociable is unsociable by choice, not by impairment.

That is not always the case, it depends on the person, and sometimes the choice of being unsociable is encouraged by early childhood social impairment. From a diagnosis point of view, how Jasnah was as a kid is what matters here since some people can easily pass as neurotypical as adulthood. Autism is a developmental disorder, and every case is different. That doesn't mean she can't also have something like OCPD, but I think she has a mild ASD as a comorbid trait (or just an ASD).

Just because an adult handles social situations easier than a kid, doesn't mean that they didn't have a difficult time as a kid when dealing with social situations. We don't know, but I think her ostracization (which she says both Renarin and her felt) is a big clue that she DID have some difficulty in social situations. Secondly, women/girls are often misdiagnosed or just...not diagnosed because it can present differently in girls. Plus, not all people with ASD have a lot of social impairment. My sister does, my brother doesn't, my cousin (who also is autistic) is very social and has a lot of friends. It depends on the person, because ASD is a spectral disorder.

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

Under is the True Way.

Join The Way. 

Open Tabs. Toilet paper under.

The Way!

Crap. I just realized I agreed with Chaos on this...

Does that mean Under is the way of the Dark Side?

8 hours ago, Extesian said:

I love this Budgie! The two first points don't surprise me, though it's good to have them in the Canon. But the mechanism for stopping him doing it. That fascinates me now. It could have been that he's incapable of performing an action that directly physically hurts someone. Or that anything he does to someone else physically feeds back and happens to him. But a nausea that can literally incapacitate him I did not expect. Not an effect I can picture realmatically. The closest thing I can think of is the Nightwatcher. Could he have actually gone to her? Could that be the reason for the nickname Slammer, she 'imprisoned' him from his ability to cause damage? Seems an unlikely idea though, he'd ever risk that.

And can he hurt someone on the spiritual realm? Could he only do so by doing something that doesn't hurt them on the physical realm? Seems... unlikely. 

Too. Many. Questions. 

It doesn't have to be magical in nature, I have a feeling this is...just how Hoid is (for some yet to be disclosed non-Investiture reason related to his past)...

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Oh I'd be really interested in hearing Brandon's long and detailed answer here. It did figure out Renarin wouldn't be comfortable touching people due to his autism, it is why I wondered why he touched Adolin so much. Even if he is his brother, it was odd to be he would spontaneously go towards physical contact, every single time, considering he is autistic. It is why I wondered if maybe he didn't have another reason for it. Arguably, it makes sense he just happens to be more comfortable with his brother, but things still don't add up well to me. If Renarin isn't doing anything to Adolin, then how come his injuries aren't slowing him down? And how why is Renairn behaving the way he does around his brother?

No it's not that odd, actually...

As someone with autistic siblings, I've found that they are a lot more willing to touch family (me, their sibling) than others. The relationship between Adolin and Renarin feels accurate to me. That is, it's quite well done and realistic, I've seen similar relationships between autistic and non-autistic siblings, too...So, based on my personal experience, I believe that it has little to do with stuff that isn't mundane...

This doesn't mean that their closeness/Renarin's willingness to touch Adolin isn't related to something else (like their childhood relationship/lack thereof with their dad...perhaps?), though... I think it is related to something that happened in their family in the past, but well, we'll just have to wait and see. xD

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@WhiteLeeopard I know what Brandon says... and Kell STILL fails the actual test! (The Hare PCLR, for anyone who is curious.) 

Working with that, Kell can still be a psychopath and a good person. There are different types of psychopathy (which is not currently a disorder; Harr believes it should be.)  Kell has the core personality traits of a psychopath (factor A), but is missing many of the behaviors (factor B). Many people can be 'psychopaths' and live normal lives. The most important factor for Kelsier is that he WANTS to do good. He knows he isn't naturally a good person, and he tries to be better despite that. Which has the end result of making him a good person, even if his personality would argue otherwise.

Edit: I should point out that my test results are skewed due to the 'revocation of conditional parole.' It's not applicable (as it didn't happen) so always gets a zero. Never mind that Kell would totally do that if it DID come up... but it hasn't, so still zero. 

I'll be honest, if Brandon hadn't said he was a psychopath, I wouldn't have considered it a possibility. Even with that WoB, I'm still iffy about it and I don't particularly like it. It still feels a lot more like a complex form of PTSD (made even more complex by Era 1-snapping) than psychopathy to me. Partially because he doesn't have most of the behaviors, also he didn't seem to really have the childhood misbehavior things either. He never hurt/bullied Marsh as a kid and he can't imagine abusing his sibling, I doubt that Kelsier would harm small animals, and, finally, playing card tricks on others as a kid really doesn't count... Plus, he doesn't always score that high on all the core personality traits, either. In other words, you're right, I think, even without "revocation of conditional parole" (heck though, I'm not sure he would even break that...Kelsier would just wait for his parole to end then go back to being a thief...hehe).

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Does make that WoB kinda confusing unless one is fake, which would also be quite strange. 

Wayne does a good approximate of Marsh in Bands with fake spikes, so, if Marsh doesn't appear as Ironeyes all that often...it might be that he fakes it. Having one eye is better than none, I guess. Or, even funnier, sometimes it's Marsh, but other times it's Kelsier pretending to be Marsh...

It wouldn't surprise me if it was secretly that jerk, Gemmel (the guy who trained Kell), and that Gemmel used to be lot more sane before well...things went down and they killed his (unbeknownst to him) skaa mistress causing him to snap. Probably not though, but it is a more reasonable suggestion than Hoid, Ruin, or Rashek. Just because a guy (Gemmel,) claims to be a half-skaa doesn't mean that he's telling to the truth, and Gemmel is old enough for this to be a possiblity...

TBH, I partially forgot about where Hoid got his "fortune" from... It happens. Thank you.

25 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Set had unkeyed metalminds and did not have medallions (they only acquired them later when capturing Alik and the rest in the temple of Sovereign).

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that the only other unkeyed metalmind that the Set had is the golden bracelet Kelesina originally had and that Wayne gets from Wax later. Is there anything saying that Kelesina and the Set had unkeyed metalminds before they captured the Southerners?