sheep

On 19/09/2016 at 8:13 AM, Rasarr said:

Wow, that Elhokar with the symbolheads image gave me chills. I dare say effect accomplished. And then, of course, I saw Kaladin as rockstar and my mood did a solid 180 turn  Awesome art, as always.

In my case, I think it's mostly cringeworthy by association with the cover it's on. The headband itself is somewhat goofy, but it makes me cringe mostly because it reminds me of the entire cover and how Kaladin was, to quite some brilliant commenter whose name I cannot remember, "fondling a gemheart", and his face had the most "durrrr" expression I've ever seen. That was not a very good cover, IMO.

I think of hand-painted book covers as throwbacks to the cheap pulp sci-fi or fantasy paperbacks I used to read as a kid.  They're more charming and unintentionally hilarious rather than cringeworthy to me.  Sure, they can be cheesy and really really dumb, but there's some nostalgia appeal to them, especially when medieval fantasy or futuristic space characters have big puffy 80's hair on the women, and gelled curtain hair for the men.  Just look at this cover. 

It's so crazy.  The Wheel of Time series has the same cheesy covers.

Though to be fair, I get books for my eReader, so I don't have to publicly carry around these crazy covers that no one but me thinks is charming.  At least it's slightly better than the bad stock image photoshops that many teen novels get.

I wouldn't say I'm the old grump who yells at kids to get off the lawn or stop throwing cricket balls through the window, but the more fiction (books, movies, TV, etc) I consume, the less patience I have to tolerate blatant stupidity.  I can deal with some of it, if the work has other redeeming qualities, like other smarter characters, or the stupid character smartens up, but my dislike of it is mostly due to the fact that my tastes have changed over time.  

I used to like the cartoon series "Spongebob Squarepants" when I watched it as a kid, and thought it was hilarious.  But when I watch it as an adult, I don't enjoy it anymore, because the show runs off Spongebob and Patrick acting incredibly stupid and getting Squidward (the only sane character) into trouble.  Spongebob is on the extreme end of stupid character that Kaladin doesn't come close to, but both of them trigger my reaction to dislike.  It's hard to explain, but it pretty much comes down to factors that determine whether I enjoy a work of fiction changing over time.  When I was younger, a story ending where the main character gets the guy/girl and teaches the bratty football captain/cheerleader a lesson in humility was enough for me to enjoy it.  If I read the same story now, I would be rolling my eyes all the way through.  We all look for different things when we consume fiction, and we all get different things out of it.  I don't think any less of people who like Kaladin as a character, but his story arc doesn't create the same emotional response in me as it does for others.  I think he's still an interesting character, and I don't hate him, and that is why the art section down below is "Kaladin Time" this week.

 

 

On 19/09/2016 at 10:17 AM, bdoble97 said:

I love seeing all these renderings of some of my favorite characters I agree with you the Stormlight Archives book is written so well that you can definitely picture it as a graphic novel inside your head when reading if  that makes sense haha.  For myself I have  pictured Jasnah as a mix between Olivia Wilde and Katy Perry I know that probably sounds ridiculous. I can never really put a face to Shallan but  I love redheads Im married to one one hahah.  The inside cover that was done of her is just amazing. Have you thought about doing warforum there's a severe lack of any of the parshindie (the listeners) artwork god a bunch that races name. 

It isn't explicitly mentioned in the series, but the Alethi characters are brown skinned and dark-haired like Polynesians or south/southeast Asians, and ever since I read that WoB, it's hard for me to picture any Caucasian actor or celebrity as an Alethi.  My brain just doesn't compute.  

However, I've seen a few posts by people in the SA Tumblr community who think that Luke Pasqualino who played d'Artagnan in BBC's production of The Three Musketeers would make a decent Kaladin.

I've done a couple of Eshonai pieces scattered in the first few pages of this thread, if you are bothered to look for them.  I haven't done any proper Parshendi designs that show the differences between their different forms, since I've only drawn Eshonai and Shen/Rlain and they cover themselves up with Shardplate and uniform.  So far, I distinguish Warform Eshonai from Stormform Eshonai by glowing red eyes.

 

 

On 20/09/2016 at 4:10 PM, Sunbird said:

Shattering glass, sheep, I LOVE your renditions of the Bridge 4 garage band and Kaladin with the Shardguitar!! I seriously could not stop laughing for like five minutes straight when I saw Lopen with the triangle in his mouth. XD I also think the scifi AUs of Renarin, Kaladin, and Adolin are awesome. And daaaaaang, the mirror scene with Elhokar and the symbol-heads is super creepy, especially that haunted look in Elhokar's eyes.

Bridge Four being in a band was so weird for me to imagine that I tried to balance out the "this would never happen" weirdness with a dose of realisticness.  Lopen would be one of the few Bridge Four members who would willingly join the band, since he is the unofficial team mascot and comic relief.  But he is limited by what instruments he could play.

I enjoy reading lots of things so outside influences always show up in my art.  A lot of the silly stuff (and the serious stuff too) I do was inspired by other things I've seen or read, and I try to point them out in the text descriptions beneath the art.  Because the truth is that I am not really that creative or original as people think I am.  I am just good at melding inspirations into something new-ish.

 

 

On 21/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, maxal said:

I think it entirely plausible for the character to have such issue, but I agree it is highly unlikely the author will even go there. It could add to the plot though. For example, if the author wanted to draw a parallel in between Adolin and Renarin, having Adolin realizing he needs glasses right after having Renarin getting rid of his would increase the role reversal they are about to go through. While a seemingly insignificant plot point, it could add to the main narrative in such ways just as having Renarin train with Bridge 4 has currently served no purpose other than pleasing a few fans who loved the character.

As Adolin hasn't had enough vision difficulties to have impacted his daily life (he doesn't absolutely need to read when he has secretaries to do it for him, probably more of them than before since most of them are now widowed and in need of work) I don't see him getting the written version of the Breather Episode when there are more important things to worry about in Urithiru.  And whilst he can't read glyphs, and may or may not be near or farsighted, he isn't colourblind at least.  The wineshop menus label the wines by colour, so there's that.

If you ever want to take a break from epic fantasy, there is a genre called "slice of life" that focuses on the everyday activities of characters in a fantasy universe.  It's not highly dramatic, but sometimes it's good to read something where the fate of the world isn't at stake.  It's surprisingly nice to have a book where no one dies.  

 

On 21/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, maxal said:

I'll put the following into spoilers because it is starting to sound too much like the Bad Day Thread.

 

Something I have noticed about fantasy fiction (and other genres too) these days is the vocal movement of readers who thirst for and demand protagonists and settings to represent them, who reflect them in terms of identity, whether it be gender or race or sexuality or a combination of the above.  People want to see themselves in the books they read, they want to see protagonists struggling with similar conflicting circumstances, they want characters whose difficulties reflect their own.  It must be another weird personal quirk of mine, because most people want to read characters who are just like them, and I personally do not care.  I do not need to relate to a character in order to enjoy a story.  I don't need characters to be just like me.  In fact, if there was a character out there just like me, I probably wouldn't read it.  Because it would be so familiar as to be boring.

When it comes down to it, I read fiction for the escapism.  Everyone knows what their own life is like, but through fictional media can a person experience the alternatives.  So when I see people who complain that there are no protagonists that perfectly represent them, and that a series or the whole genre of contemporary fantasy sucks because of it, I think it's kind of silly.  I don't care who or what the protagonist is if the prose and plot are creative and well-written.  All the people who demand authors write relateable characters, and refuse to read stories where they are not, are missing out on really good books with original characters who might not be human or even alive.  Black Beauty and White Fang had great animal protagonists and Caves of Steel had a robot android MC.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting a protagonist to be relateable, I'm just wondering when it became such a vital component of having an enjoyable reading experience.  It has never mattered that much to me; the real factor for what I consider a readable story is having a likeable protagonist, and other than that, I have never felt unsatisfied because I could not see myself in the character outside of the most basic human urges of securing life, love and the ability to pursue one's happiness.  So I have to wonder why it is so important to other people to have relateable characters when it has never been that important to me.  Am I the weird one?

The characters I do like to read are the pragmatic type, grey morality antiheroes or antivillains, mostly because they are nothing like me.  The choices they make and the actions they carry out are ones that I have never made, nor will I ever be placed in a situation where I have to, because their ethics and environment are nothing like modern day Earth.  That is what makes them interesting - they get to do all the things I will never do.  I am not overly disappointed that they are not so common as goody-goody protagonists, but it is a character type that I do enjoy reading if they happen to appear - they are mostly found in niche subgenres like grimdark or military fiction.  If you have trouble finding fantasy protagonists that are outside of the mainstream young male of modest means and supernaturally exceptional skill at sword fighting or underwater basket weaving, you should look outside of mainstream fantasy.  Mainstream fantasy is defined by what publishers think will sell to the masses, and what the masses want to buy.  

If you are disappointed by the route that the future SA books are taking, you might try to emotionally distance yourself from the series instead of focusing on the things  you want to happen but most likely won't happen, or are confirmed to never happen at all.  Focusing on it will only make the disappointment feel worse.  Reading fantasy should be for enjoyment, and you can't enjoy something if you are fixated on a story not being what you expected it to be, rather than enjoying it for what it is.  You have said in the past that if you had known that Adolin would only be a supporting character and never be promoted to main cast, you would not have gone so deep down the rabbit hole.  Well, it's not too late to un-rabbit-hole yourself and take a break and do other things.  It's a weird thing to say on an SA fansite, but it works for me, and so I don't get disappointed about how the series was supposed to be released at the rate of a new SA book every 2 years.

 

On 21/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, maxal said:

I hate dragons. Well, I love the idea of dragons, but I hate how condescending they often are towards humans. Their purpose generally is to introduce beings superiors to human and the screw the usual food chain by introducing creatures standing above humans. 

Dragons are the fantasy equivalent of the super hightech aliens of science fiction stories, who come and deliver a couple of beatdowns to teach puny humans some humility.  They tend to be plot devices thrown in to create a conflict and cause the humans to work together for a common goal.  So my opinion of dragons depends on how heavy handed the plot is (sometimes it's a moral lesson to respect nature) and how developed the worldbuilding is.  In a magical land where magic exists to make giant 20-tonne flying lizards ignore the laws of physics and aerodynamics, and there are people who go around saying they don't believe in dragons?  There better be a good reason for that.  

I like word humour in fiction, and fantasy comedies too, but that is one of the rarest of subgenres.  What I do not like is bad puns and unfunny comedy, and that is most of Shallan's immature cringey toilet humour.  Kaladin's reaction to her jokes is a realistic reaction.  After Shallan tries to joke Kaladin before she takes his boots, his reaction is blank faced "what", more because it's not funny rather than not getting the joke.  I think if you looked deeper into it, and saw that Shallan really isn't funny but she tries anyway because she believes it makes her life marginally less sucky, it is surprisingly similar to Renarin being clearly unfit to be a soldier, but still going ahead with training.  Still, Renarin and Shallan would be a "earn your happy ending" style plot instead of a "meant for each other" plot.  While Brandon did okay with Vin/Elend or Rao/Sarene, I'm still not sold on any of the romance subplots of SA.  Mostly because Brandon has such a hands-off "interpret as you will" writing style when it comes to romance.  

The Harry Potter wizarding world economy is all sorts of nonsense.  Seemingly half of wizarding Britain works at the Ministry of Magic, so no wonder there are barely any worthy careers when wizards easily live to 150 years old.  Wizarding Britain has a population of 10,000, and they have 13 professional Quidditch teams, or 1 team to every 780 people.  Say a team is 7 players with 7 understudies, it means 1.82% of the British wizard population plays professional Quidditch.  Then you add in managers, referees, support staff, and then the number gets higher and even more ridiculous.  There are plenty of blogs and websites where fans poke holes in the worldbuilding logic.  If you have ever read the classic children's books Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and its sequel Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, it runs off the same crazy logic that requires you to not think too hard or you'll ruin the fun of the story.  The last book is actually self-aware enough that a character is shushed when he asks too many questions.

 

On 21/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, maxal said:

I love to rant. The problem with ranting is do it with the wrong person and it escalate into negativeness or you get called out for ranting. It is fun to rant against Kaladin: he has had such the typical heroes journey, it has become too easy. I also love to read the negative reviews because I find they contain the most interesting information. There isn't much to catch into: "This was the best book I have ever read", but there is something to be glimpsed into the: "I didn't like it because...". And also a good rant is always entertaining to read, but agree the threshold is hard to figure out.

If and when you rant, it is always good to put a notice saying "rant ahead, be warned".  That way people who don't like rant, or think rants are too negative when they involve a favourite character and they take it personally, can skip to the end or ignore the post.  On Goodreads, reviewers post a warning because some of them do use salty language, and that is not something everyone wants to see.  And the entertainment value of a review comes from how self-aware the writer is, because it is always more entertaining to see a bad book get roasted in a funny way than to read "it was the worst book ever", which is no better than the "best book ever" type reviews in terms of usefulness.  The line between a good rant and a bad rant is knowing the difference, and pointing out specific points of absurdity instead of being general and saying "the whole book was pure trash". 

What is about the WoB's that ruined Kaladin for you?  I didn't know he had clinical depression until I read a few discussion threads which mentioned it, but I'd noticed reading on my own that he was moody and emo most of the time.  I thought it was just an extension of his teenage edginess, since his mood swings were introduced as part of his character from the first flashbacks where his surly and sullen temperament was contrasted to Tien's happy personality.  It never crossed my mind that it was mental illness level depression.

 

On 21/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, maxal said:

Robert Jordan sure was a master at uselessly prolonging a buildup to the point of when it finally get resolves, you don't care about it anymore. Brandon arguably is one of the best for this: the payoff is always worth it. The Reckoners were written to be teenager pulp fiction, but it misses the mark when it comes to character development. The author could have done better here, but his choice was to focus on the crowd pleasing action. This is a line Brandon often crosses: sabotaging characters development for the sake of action or turning them into mere action figures going from one scene to the other doesn't make for his best stories, IMHO.

Long series with years and years between the first book and the last book's release are the worst at delivering a satisfying ending after years of speculation and hype.  There are a number of series that had the flattest endings when they had the potential to be so much better.  I read so many of them when I was younger, and I can barely remember the names of the books or who wrote them, but my lasting impression was how disappointing they were - that is how bad they are.  It is worse these days because a lot of publishers don't want standalone stories, they want authors to delivery a trilogy or they don't get a contract.  So it leads to filler, padding, inconsistent pacing, and unenjoyable story.  Reckoners is not that bad for a YA trilogy, but focus on the gimmick of "superpowers, one weakness" and action scenes overpowered the focus on the characters.  I remember picking up Calamity and when I read it, I realised I had forgotten who the heck Mizzy was and I didn't go back to Steelheart/Firefight because I didn't care at all.  

I really liked Lirael when I first read it, and on subsequent re-reads.  It is only recently that I realised why.  One of my favourite themes in fiction is when characters undergo a skill progression with applied hard work and perseverence.  No instant expertise (that is a massive NO), but skill acquired from practice or honed talent.  That is what I find satisfying and fulfilling in a character arc.  I liked the Old Kingdom series because no character stood out as annoyingly stupid.  If they behaved erratically, it was justified.  Yes, it's stupid for a villain to brag in front of the heroes, but it was established that Rogir was always vain and prideful.  I'm glad you liked Prince Sam, as I thought you would.  If you liked him, you might like Prince Khemri from Garth Nix's scifi standalone novel A Confusion of Princes.  The MC is not an introvert, he's a prince instead of an underdog hero, and also develops a sibling relationship if you like reading about that.  It's more space opera than hard sci-fi, which makes it more of a fantasy IN SPACE.

And all protagonists have the potential to be well or poorly written, whether they are introverted or extroverted or somewhere in between, depending on the skill of the author.  If an extrovert is annoying and develops a hatedom, it is not specifically because they are an extrovert, but because the author goofed somewhere.  In the series I was talking about, I hated the extroverted protagonist because the author was bad and kept throwing in random plot elements to keep the story going and draw out the tension (which made the last book in the series a disappointment) in a way that writing guidelines warn against.  If your plot gets boring, the last thing you should do is throw a ninja through the window to spice up some action, but that book was filled with it such contrived plots.  

I've been thinking about which books I've read had extroverted protagonists actually, and I don't think they are as rare as you make it out to be.  They're mostly in character-driven stories, and it is never explicitly mentioned that they are extroverts, and it is not focused on as a defining character trait as that makes a character one-dimensional, and most people are a mix of traits.  But it is not so impossible to find if you keep your standards relatively generous.

 

 

 

 

Here's a Word of Ben about it:

 

Quote

Q:  Do you keep old versions of designs as you update and correct them? It would be nice to one day see a production art book showing the evolution of the axehound or chasmfiend design with little notes from you and the rest of the team.

 

A:  I made the switch to digital production about 9 or 10 years ago, so the vast majority of all my work is drawn in the computer, usually in Photoshop or Manga Studio. One advantage to this is that I do have pretty much every draft of every design we've done, in perfect condition, and for some (like the axehound) there were a lot of ideas batted around before we narrowed it down. All of these drafts are stored (and backed up) at full resolution, and at some point we'll very likely do a book that collects all this material.

But that's a long way down the road, and we've got a lot more work to collect. I wouldn't expect anything like that before we hit the five-book mark, and possibly not until the whole set of 10 is complete. It really depends on demand, and we're too far out to try and project something like that at this stage. Check back in a few years.

Source:  Q&A Session with Ben McSweeney

For those who don't know, Ben "Inkthinker" McSweeney does a lot of the interior artworks for SA, and also did the character pieces for the Mistborn Adventure Game.

 

I personally think designing 30+ sets of Shardplate in the Alethi army is overkill.  Sure, they look cool and awesome, but the basic structure of the armour and power boosting abilities are the same for everyone.  The only real difference from set to set is the shape of the pauldrons or helm.  I would be more interested to see a catalogue of Shardblades with notes on what Radiant Order the original owner/spren was associated with.

On 12/09/2016 at 5:11 AM, Djarskublar said:

Nice art. Better than your usual fare, which is solid. Have an upvote.

I disagree that Kaladin was OOC there. He wanted to protect Dalinar. That extends to wanting to kill the only real threat to him. Sadeas has nothing on the Blackthorn in full force. Trickery like the Tower is the only way to beat Dalinar. That or send your Truthless assassin. Szeth was the only real and immediate danger to Dalinar at that point. Kaladin owes him a blood debt of one Shardblade. That was also the point in time where he was considering helping Moash with the plot. He was a lot... angrier at the time. I don't think it was off of him to say/think those things.

Thanks!  I've always wanted to be solid.  It's heaps better than liquid, and gas blows. 

I should clarify that what I meant was that I preferred the original ending to WoR where Kaladin kills Szeth with a hit to the spine to the new edited ending where Szeth is hit in a less vital point and "dies" when he hits the ground.  The original ending felt more in character, and the new one felt more OOC, especially as you pointed out, Szeth was a legitimate danger and an actual murderer compared to the unintentional murderer by negligence that Elhokar is.  There are many moments through the whole book where Kaladin says he wants to kill Szeth.  All of these were building up and foreshadowing Szeth getting killed by Kaladin.  

I won't say that Shallan doesn't have moments of plot convenience, and how everyone who didn't like her ends up respecting her by the end because she's clever, funny, unexpectedly honest, good at getting what she wants through personal charm or magic, or a combination of the above.  But Kaladin's sudden ability to learn how to change the direction of gravity was accelerated beyond disbelief to me.

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For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds.
There.
He made the direction of the wall become down.
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

When I first read it, I didn't know about all the whole Cosmere-verse stuff with the three realms, and I didn't recognise that Kaladin saw into the Cognitive Realm until much later.  But it was never explained in-story, and Kaladin didn't think about it again, so I felt unsatisfied by it.  It is likely that Kaladin will go to the Cognitive Realm again in the future books and my response will retroactively shift as a result, but as of now, his accelerated learning is a moment in the book when my reaction is like "Really?  Is that it???".  

Your mileage may vary, of course.  

 

 

 

On 12/09/2016 at 7:07 AM, Rasarr said:

The moment I saw the garage band image, I've been chuckling  For maximum being-pelted-with-fruits value, I nominate Rock to play bagpipes. The horror! 

On another note, that's yet another post full of great art. Adolin's expressions are comedy gold, but gah, the headband! The headband continues to be a fatal fashion accessory for Kaladin, as far as I'm concerned. 

With Urithiru, I suspect my "fat unicorn horn" concept is incorrect, mostly because of what you've noted - it doesn't look all that aesthetically pleasing, all things considered. I suspect the terraces might be partially, or even mostly hidden beneath the upper floor's ceiling, which would make the entire thing slightly less pyramid-like. Still, a helluva achievement for Roshar-level society. Makes me wonder how many generations of Radiants were involved in making the thing, or if it was something the Heralds or even Tanavast & Cultivation themselves constructed. 

I admit I'm going to disagree with you as to Kaladin, mostly for the same reasons Djarskublar stated. To each their own, I suppose, but I find him neither annoying nor implausible. 

I don't get the hate for Kaladin's headband.  Brandon Sanderson didn't like it, which is why Michael Whelan changed it for the cover of WoR, but I think it's pretty cool.  It reminds me of Rambo and also martial arts movies full of angsty young men trying to prove themselves to the world, so it fits Kaladin.  Is it too goofy looking or something?

Urithiru also had glass windows.

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The flight of steps opened into a room that encompassed nearly the entire top floor of the tower city, and it shone with light through glass windows. Glass with no shutters or support, some of it facing east. How it survived highstorms Dalinar did not know, though lines of crem did streak it in places.
Chapter 89, "The Four", Words of Radiance

Everything is built on giant scale and flat glass windows are pretty difficult to make without industrial processes - in the old days they were made with lots of little panes set into a lead frame instead of big sheets of plate glass that modern skyscrapers have, so it must have been Soulcast.  If the Cosmere didn't have magic to explain things, I would have said ANCIENT ALIENS.

Kaladin's (and most characters') appeal differs from person to person.  I would have liked him more if I read his story when I was younger, but preferences change over time with life experience.  When I read about Kaladin being hotheaded and shooting himself in the foot because he acted without thinking, a part of me cringes.  It overshadows awesome moments he might have later on.  I think I just focus on the insignificant details too much.

 

 

 

On 12/09/2016 at 9:30 AM, Darkness Ascendant said:

I really like how you made the last one, It's a photo which you drew on right? Anyway, it works really well.
Also, do you use a grunge filter? Looks like you use one for textures

Yeah, it's a photo that I put some blurring filters on because I didn't want to draw all the gym equipment.  It gets tedious after three or four treadmills.  I blurred and used some pixel noise in the background, and painted the foreground and dumbbells to blend it with the cartoon character art.  

The grunge filter is some layered textures.  I used a parchment and a concrete texture set at low opacity, but you can find a lot of different ones that give a similar effect on google.  Sites that sell flooring tiles often have good high res photos of their products that you can layer on in Photoshop.  Like this one, for example.

 

 

 

On 14/09/2016 at 0:47 PM, maxal said:

One of my pet peeves is Adolin actually needs glasses... He can't read glyphs which are made of tiny lines on small pieces of paper held from afar. He can't even tell if they are numbers or words or how many glyphs there are. Obviously, he has had training which makes it dubious he would be so poor at such basic skills. My pet peeve has thus be Adolin sucks at glyphs reading because he can't see them properly... I mean there are several eye sight issues which would go completely unnoticed in a world where reading on boards isn't required, but would cause issue for tiny glyphs reading.

A pet peeve is something (usually small and insignificant) that annoys you personally.  I think you mean "head canon" there.  

Lirin and Renarin have glasses, which means Alethkar has optometrists or some basic oculists who are qualified to test eyesight and fit glasses to customers, if only in the big cities to rich people who can afford the service.  Which Adolin can.   So it is likely that Adolin doesn't have bad eyesight, or least not bad enough that he requires glasses to be able to function normally in his daily activities.  He might have mild hyperopia/farsightedness where things that are far away look normal, but close up is blurred.  But we will never know, because slice-of-life moments where Adolin goes to the optometrist, or Kaladin and Rock go grocery shopping at the commissary for the evening's dinner stew are charming and humanising but add nothing to the plot.

 

On 14/09/2016 at 0:47 PM, maxal said:

WoB are treacherous and you need to read the interviews as they come out to keep up with them. There are no research tools available and if I once made the suggestions all should be dumped at the same location, but it was too complicated and too time consuming to manage. 

A lot of WoB's that happen at conventions and signings only become fandom knowledge if someone records it or posts the answer here or on the Coppermind wiki or another site.  Not everyone is a Sharder, involved with the fan community, or bothers to copy down spoken answers into text to post online.  Finding WoB's is difficult because it only works if you know what you are looking for.  Many of them can be found in a Google search, if you know the keywords in the question, so if you've read it before, you can find it again.  It is the new or obscure information that is almost impossible to find.  I don't judge or dismisspeople who don't know information that isn't published in a book, but for the better known information that answers many repeatedly asked questions (Dalinar's Shardblade switch, was X character really Hoid, why doesn't Kaladin fix his forehead scar, does the Stick have magical powers) it would be good to have a place where this information can be read and sorted through.

Does it all come down to a difference in personality and attitudes?  I have no issues talking to people, or new people I have never met before.  It's kind of fun, but I know that 95% of these people aren't people I could maintain a long-term friendship with, and of the few that I can, long-term doesn't mean forever.  People change, and trying to maintain a relationship with someone you have less in common with than when you first met them is not that enjoyable when all you have to talk about is stuff you did a long time ago, when you liked one another more.  Sometimes you just have to let things go and downgrade a friendship to an acquaintanceship and make new friends.  Perhaps I am more blasé about relationships, but while it is disappointing when it happens, I don't consider it a rejection on the level of having my feelings stomped on and shredded.  I am more easy-going in nature, and you are more... intense.  If people have rejected you for some unknown reason, it might be because you can get emotionally invested in things and way more passionate than other people, so a casual conversation that started out as friendly turns into an unexpected heated discussion.  Not everyone wants their conversation to derail into a debate, and if you have very strong opinions, it may come off as aggressive or as if you are ignoring opposing opinions that might be equally valid.  The solution to that is to chill and not to take things personally, but then again it is the same sort of advice like "Just go outside and talk to people" that natural introverts get that doesn't help them much at all.  So another solution is to be more judicious with what you say and remember your audience.  A friendship involves one or more other people!

I don't know if that helped.  But if you can detach yourself from the negative emotions of rejection and try to figure out why people might like or dislike you, you could understand why things happened.  Even extroverted characters can be introspective and self-aware.

And now I think I am beginning to understand why people don't' see as much into Adolin's character as you.  True, hardcore extroverts are rare, because most people, including me, have a mix of both traits, and anyone who strays too close to either end is in the narrow bit of the bell curve, statistically.  Adolin's personality is taken at face value - he has friends, he likes hanging out with them, it's sad when they don't want to hang out with him.  And it isn't developed further unless it is to set him up as BFF's with Kaladin and Shallan.

I myself cannot even imagine being so extroverted that my whole identity is defined by what other people think of me.  Sure, I understand what crowd hype is, and to feel pleased when you have made a good impression on a large group of people who think of you as lively and interesting.  But I cannot comprehend a person who so deeply needs interaction with others that their life becomes meaningless without it, and I would not be the only person.  It is such an extreme that it would be like someone who is agoraphobic to the point where going outside gives them anxiety, and making eye contact with a late night supermarket  cashier sends them into a paranoid panic.  And if I am being honest here, it is something that few people relate to, like they don't relate to extreme extroversion.  That is why such characters are the side character of a cast ensemble in a TV show, like Joey from Friends or Barney from How I Met Your Mother.  It is a personality trait that could be explored, but in a supporting character, it doesn't take the overall narrative forward.

I totally understand the "book hangover" feeling when you finish a big series with a well-developed character cast and world and when you start a new one, you cannot help but compare and feel like it isn't as good as the last one, until you get fully immersed in the story (which may or may not happen).  If I only read the same few books, I would not have discovered other books as good or better than the old ones.  And I think it's better to return to an old favourite after a break where I read other books. I get a fresh enjoyment upon my return, and it stops me from being tired of the same character or character archetype.  You criticise underdog farmboys with magical swords for being repetitive plot device characters, but you prefer to read only extroverted protagonists.  It is not so different.

 

On 14/09/2016 at 0:47 PM, maxal said:

Malta was a very satisfying character development. I agree about the dragons: I never understood why the humans just didn't kill the vile selfish creatures right away, why they were doing their binding... Why the Fool wanted the Dragons to be back, what gain did this give society? None. I didn't read the last trilogy. I will, eventually but I am not in the mood for it right now.

I disliked the dragons and thought they were all selfish, manipulative lizards.  Which is cool, since many other fantasy stories portray them as majestic creatures you can't argue with, like beautiful vegetarian elves.  The dragons were useful in fighting off the invaders who did the Forging in the first trilogy, and it turned out that the Skill came from Elderling descendents, which is useful.  But I would rather live in a world with no magic if it meant there were no selfish dragons who do more harm than good.  So many stories are about magic returning to a mundane world (Westeros, for example), and it is rare that characters decide that magic is more trouble than it's worth and get rid of it.

Renarin would not have thought that Shallan is funny or witty.  In the Boots chapter in WoR, Shallan makes a joke about "vesture" and "virtue".  Renarin would have been silent for a minute to analyse (the habit of his that makes girls think he is awkward and unsettling) and then commented on how the two words are pronounced similarly but mean different things, and killed the moment.  I don't know if you read WoR in French or English, but it was not really funny to me because they're not that close when you say it aloud compared to how it looks on the page.  Renarin would not have responded to Shallan's teasing and baiting, and he has the patience and composure that Kaladin lacks.  I still think he and Shallan could have made a better long-term couple than Shallan and Kaladin, but it would take more work to set it up and sell it.  Obviously it won't go there since there's Adolin, but if Adolin carks it before SA5 , Shallan could be the Navani since Vorinism has a love of symmetry.

I loved the HP universe as a kid, but now I can see all the little holes in the world building.  This is where the trend of a more scientific approach to worldbuilding in fantasy has stepped into the niche for all those readers who want something more solid for their backstory - authors like Brandon who have so much extra detail that he spends hours at signings answering questions about it.  When I think about Harry Potter, it's kind of ridiculous that their economy runs off gold coins, and there is a rule of magic that says you can't create food from thin air, but you can take a tiny sliver of carrot and enlarge it until you have a carrot the size of a house.  But somehow the Weasleys are so poor that Ron only has a sad corned beef sandwich on the train, while Harry buys everything on the snack trolley.

 

On 14/09/2016 at 0:47 PM, maxal said:

I love to rant on Kaladin mostly because so many readers think him such a relatable character, it makes me want to rant even harder, if it makes sense. Kaladin is the thick of the action because the author wants him to be. I agree he was the right choice to carry on the narrative of WoK, I will never dispute this. While I agree he was still the right character to still carry it into WoR, I felt he should not be the sole one going into book 3. I would never attempt to re-write WoK without Kaladin, it wouldn't work, but going into book 3, I do not see him as a requirement. Mind, he should still have a large role, but I do not think he should be the sole focus as the story keeps on growing mostly because he has gotten predictable and well, I find other characters more interesting to read about than him.

I like to rant on Kaladin because I like to rant.   I can take the rant to any and every character if I wanted, like Renarin or Navani or Shallan, and characters from other books and series and other authors.  I love ranting and I like rant reviews on Goodreads, because they're the most entertaining ones to read compared to the boring "This book was great, 5/5".  As long as it is done in a tongue-in-cheek and self-aware humourously sarcastic manner, it doesn't devolve into tiresome complaining where you have to point out, "If you hated it so much, why did you keep reading?".  It's a fine line to walk, and I like to keep practicing at it.  

I dislike Kaladin's narrative more than Kaladin the character.  Sure, his depression can be painful to read, but what I really am not fond of is all the bad things that happen to him to make him bounce from plot point to plot point like the pinball on the flippers of fate.  This is mostly a personal preference thing.  I did not like Lemony Snicket's "A Series of Unfortunate Events" for the same reason, because each book left me wondering what sort of bad things the author would force onto the poor orphans in this episode, and made me incredibly frustrated because their lawyer and guardian was made intentionally stupid so bad people could keep trying to steal their inheritance.  Sure it keeps the plot moving forward and characters going in a new direction, but it is only because the author keeps introducing freak accidents and sudden deaths of the one foster parent they actually liked.  And if it is only good things that the author gives instead, then you get Mary Sue characters common in wish fulfillment-heavy Asian light novel and web serial novels.  Gosh, I now realise I am probably very picky.  At least I have read widely enough to realise what I like or dislike about novels and can now pick the ones I know I will enjoy instead of attempting to slog through.

 

On 14/09/2016 at 0:47 PM, maxal said:

I think a lot of readers will agree the "not talking to one another" narrative ploy has gotten old: it isn't overly popular nowadays and many would think it lazy for an author to resort to it over and over again. Luckily, Brandon moved through his at a quick pace, so hopefully he is done with it now the Radiants are officially back. There are others I know whom would have make it drag for several more books. 

The longer the narrative buildup is, the more people expect in the eventual payoff.  And if the payoff is falls short, it colours the whole book and readers are disappointed, even if the rest of the story is well-written with compelling characters.  Brandon is pretty good at managing buildup and momentum to payoff, which makes reading his 1000 page doorstoppers easy to fly through, but sadly not every author is as good at this.  I have been disappointed a number of times in other series, but no matter how much I rant, I still think Brandon is one that guarantees satisfaction.  Except with the Reckoners trilogy, but let's just ignore that.

I thought you would have disliked Lirael since she is an obvious introvert who even tried to Honor Chasm herself.  She gets better, obviously, and is not so annoying once her dog tells her to stop whining and get over it, but it's pretty clear she's not a happy neurotypical standard protagonist.  That is why I enjoy Garth Nix books.  You get presented with what seems like a straightforward growing up story, then your expectations don't pan out, but the ending is still satisfying and bittersweet.  Sabriel never really rescued her father, after all.

Also the character from "Bloody Jack" wasn't a caricature as much as she was a victim of fate and circumstance.  The story would end after Book 2 if she got away with her crimes and settled down into obscurity.  But it became a cat and mouse situation where the author kept milking the series and making the protagonist go on the run like Valjean to Javert.  It wasn't just her extroversion and big mouth that was getting her into trouble, but rather eavesdroppers at the wrong place and wrong time that reported her, and other contrived situations like an accidental distinctive tattoo reveal.  You know, (in)convenient bad luck.

Johnny Rico's actor has a rectangle head and he looks like Ken doll.  There, I said it.

 

 

 

 

 

On 17/09/2016 at 11:44 PM, maxal said:

The great thing about SA is the author has explained how he wish for his readers to have their own personal imagery of the characters: he doesn't want to enforce it on them. Hence, there isn't just one representation of each character, there are several. I can only speak for my own. As Djarskublar said, @sheep as arguably some of the best available art in the fandom. I like how she draws her Adolin even if he is not quite exactly as my mental imagery (we have had discussions on the matter and came to the conclusion both our representations were valid, just different), but it is among the best ones I have seen.

Adolin is so handsome that when Kaladin sees him for the first time saving the prostitute in WoK, he mentally remarks how handsome he is.  And that is workaholic bridgeman pre-Chasm adventure Kaladin who wouldn't even admit that a lighteyed girl was pretty just because she was lighteyed. 

 

Quote

“We have legitimate business,” said the officer in blue. He had light golden hair, speckled with Alethi black, and a handsome face. He held his hand before him as if wishing to shake hands with Sadeas’s officer. “Come now,” he said affably. “Whatever your problem with this woman, I’m sure it can be resolved without anger or violence.”
Chapter 46, "Child of Tanavast", Way of Kings

Adolin must be next level Zoolander-style really really ridiculously good looking or something.

@maxal and I disagree about the hair, which every artist and reader envisions differently.  I even made a big chart for all the alternatives because no one ever draws the same thing.

 

The interesting thing about hair and character design is that hair that covers the forehead makes someone look younger (see "The Justin Bieber") and showing the whole forehead looks older and more mature ("The Dalinar").  That is why I draw something that covers half the forehead but stops before the eyebrows - Adolin doesn't get treated as a full adult by a lot of people, including his father and Sadeas, but he is still in charge of half an army.  There's a balance between youth and maturity there.  I draw Adolin's hair like #1, and maxal prefers #2, which is the messier version.  Adolin's hair is described as a "stylish mess" and while the tousled look comes from drawing in the hairs one by one, it is time and effort consuming.

 

#1 is much easier to do in quick cartoon pieces where all the individual strands can be shorthanded into chunks, like in this stylised depiction.

 

I also draw Adolin with Asian-ish eyes, without the eyelid fold that Earth Europeans have.  In Alethkar, Adolin is of mixed ethnicity (Alethi and Riran), but in Roshar, it is only the Shin people out of all the nations who have the eyelid folds.  It is only in the painted pieces that I can show the eyelid detail.

 

Anyway, that was my summary of how I draw Adolin and why I do it like that.  Very little fanart by other artists matched my own mental image, so I made my own pictures.

 

 

23 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

Maxal @sheep has some very nice art of the characters. Very talented artist. I would love to hear their opinion of the peace I posted of th Dalinar commission I posted for some reason everytime I try to post it in the galleries it says uploaded failure

 

Okay, here you go:

I have seen a lot of SA art over the ages, and I can see the influences from other artists in the piece you commissioned.

Dalinar's uniform design is from Exmachina. 

Quote

Like every other high-ranked lighteyed officer in Dalinar’s army, Adolin wore a simple blue out-fit of militaristic cut. A long coat of solid blue—no embroidery—and stiff trousers in a time when vests, silk accents, and scarves were the fashion. His father’s Kholin glyphpair was emblazoned quite obtrusively on the back and breast, and the front fastened with silver buttons up both sides. It was simple, distinctly recognizable, but awfully plain.
Chapter 18, "Highprince of War", Way of Kings

Excepting the scarf, Exmachina's Kholin Army uniform is more detail canon perfect than mine, because I don't draw the giant Kholin glyphpair logo on front and back.  I thought it was too busy and it really sucks to draw consistently for a multi-panel comic strip.  

The Shardplate design looks like Gavilar's, drawn by Ben McSweeney. 

Some thoughts that other people have already pointed out about the piece is that Dalinar, according to Brandon Sanderson, doesn't have a beard and has a darker skin colour.  The Shardplate is plain grey with a high chin-length collar as matching the book description in Ch.12 "Unity" and Ch.28 "Decision", but the side that isn't holding the Shardblade doesn't have the same pointy bits on the shoulder and elbow as the other arm.  If Roshar is so big on symmetry, would suits of Plate be symmetrical from side to side?  It would be pretty bad to have a right-handed Shardplate when you are lefthanded.  

And one other thing - the fontface that the text "Dalinar Kholin" and "Shardplate" is written in is the font "Deutsch Gothic", a German-style blackletter font used in WWII propaganda posters.  Which is a weird choice to me, but maybe I'm the only one who cares enough about typography to notice.  The official font used in the maps and the text "Roshar" is the font "Stonecross".

Overall, I think it's a decent character piece that sums up the most important aspects of Dalinar Kholin.  But I can tell that it wasn't drawn by someone who is overly familiar with SA, since the official title is "The Stormlight Archive" rather than "Archives".  If the artist you commissioned is someone who has never read the series and had to work off reference material created by other people, it must have been a very confusing experience.   Shardplate is difficult to draw for the first time when seeing Ben McSweeney's detailed and intricate sketchbook illustrations.  

If you liked the artwork, and it fits your mental picture of the character, I think my opinion of it is really unnecessary.  

 

 

18 hours ago, Rasarr said:

I admit my vision of Adolin was always coloured by this sketch from Shallan's notes:

Not sure if it's helpful, but if Adolin's appearance is being discussed, I suppose I might add this picture, since it's as close to the "canon" rendering of Adolin's appearance as we're likely to get.

That "SIGH" written there gets me every time.  I used that as a reference for Adolin's hair length, and it looks like Ben McSweeney has the same thoughts about it as I do.  One thing that most people forget is that because Adolin's hair is blond and black, it is only natural that his eyebrows are blond and black as well.  I am reasonably certain the rest of his hair is the same mixed colouration. 

Some WoB's about Dalinar and Dalinar's appearance: 

Quote

Q: If someone from Earth saw an Alethi, what ethnicity would they assume they were?"

A: The model I use are half-Hawaiian half-Asians common in Hawaii.  Some people might say Arab, but the model I use are half Hawaiian-Asian...  The only ones that look Caucasian are Shin... Shallan still has an epicanthic fold but looks fairly Caucasian.

Source:  2014 interview.

 

Quote

Q:  Is Dalinar clean shaven or does he wear a beard?
A:  It depends on the day, and the time. Dalinar is clean-shaven through most of the books you have seen.

Q:  I get the impression that Sadeas has a creepy mustache from the audiobook as well.
A:  Beards are not in fashion in Alethkar right now.

Source:  SLC Convention, 2014.

As a side note, Gavilar is the one who had a beard, not Dalinar. 

 

Since Alethi aren't Earth people, I can't think of any celebrities or actors who could match my mental image of Dalinar when I read the books.  Anyone IRL who naturally had the tan skin dark hair combo of the traditional Alethi look without resorting to spray tans and hair dye would have to use contact lenses to be a lighteyes, and coloured contact lenses look really weird up close.  

I always imagined Dalinar to have a combination of Arab, Polynesian, indigenous Amerindian, and Central Asian features.  One of Brandon Sanderson's influences for Dalinar's backstory comes from Mongolian legends.

 

Quote

Q: I was just listening to Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast and Dan Carlin was talking about Genghis Khan’s habit of seeing the potential in anyone, even an enemy. He was specifically going over the story of Jebe, a soldier who shot Genghis Khan in the neck and was recruited by the Khan because of his skill. This, at least to me, bears a striking resemblance to the final scene in the first flashback of Oathbreaker. /u/mistborn can you confirm or deny my suspicions that this scene was directly inspired by the real life event?

A: Yup, that’s where it came from! I read a history of Genghis a number of years back, and loved this story, which was included there (though said to be just a legend.) Since I based old-school Dalinar on Subutai, a Mongolian general, I thought that this would be a perfect inclusion.

Source:  Reddit thread from 2015.

 

 

That was what I used for my interpretation of Dalinar when I did a character design for him.  Most people draw him in a very similar way, as a brown guy who wears blue.  It's only the small details that differ from artist to artist.

 

Young Dalinar:

 

Basic character design:

 

Animated Dalinar:

 

I imagine it would be difficult to find someone with that perfect combination of features, since Alethi are a fantasy ethnicity that doesn't exist on Earth.  And then there are problems with people who look the part and can't act, and non-Anglosphere actors who don't speak the same language, or even English at all.

Well, at least with our imaginations and homemade fan art, we can pick and choose all the things we like without having to concern ourselves with reality.   

I gave myself a Sharpie tattoo a while ago.

 

With this design

 

and turned it to this, with washable marker for guidelines and permanent marker for linework.

 

Here was the thread about it where two other people did it.  It lasts about a week before fading to grey, but it's possible to keep tracing over the fading lines for touchups and keep it going forever. 

I think I am too much of a pain weenie to get the real thing.

On 27/08/2016 at 7:44 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

You cosplay as well......holy storms your amazing

There are some older cosplay pictures on the second page of this thread, including a Shardblade made of foam, hot glue and plaster.  The blade length is only around 1m long, so definitely not to scale.  

 

 

On 28/08/2016 at 6:54 AM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, that's some awesome art! I absolutely adore your design of Iyatil's mask, and the colour in both the poster and - especially - the slaver wagon piece is just stunning. And the details in the "training day" pic cracked me up; especially Shallan's smile  For some reason, I've always imagined the ghostblood symbol to look more along the lines of this:

but you're right, we don't really have a good description - and my vision doesn't lend itself to character portraits, really. 

My personal quest to figure out Urithiru continues! Yeah, the problem with the building is that it's so ridiculously huge, it's kind of hard to imagine it in the context of fantasy series. Either those terraces are ridiculously tiny, are partly hidden under the next level, or the building's base is unreasonably wide. So we have to think less cups and more wide bowls. Regardless, from a distance it would probably look something like a fat unicorn horn - even if the topmost level is only a tiny round chamber of 1 m radius, it would still make the ground level have a radius half again that of Burj Khalifa's (itself roughly twice the height of Urithiru).

That tall triangle over Burj Khalifa is supposed to be Urithiru. 

Hope my musings are even moderately helpful.

I drew the details of Iyatil's mask to look like it was made of layered sections, like the overlapping wings of a dragonfly.  The official book description said it resembled a carapace, so in reality it's probably more smooth and flat like a turtle or a beetle shell.  But that doesn't look as cool.

The Ghostbloods logo can be pretty much anything if the vague description of "three diamonds" is all there is to go on.  You can throw them together in a surprising variety of designs that may or may not resemble modern Earth corporate logos.

Ghostblood Logos

I went back and forth between "cups up" and "cups down" before settling on the "up" positioning of the terraces.  The up position means that the tower doesn't have to look so disproportionately huge and squat, and advertising posters are supposed to show off buildings as looking impressive and imposing.  A fat unicorn horn just doesn't look cool when typical posters that I was trying to copy tend to show grand deco buildings like the Chrysler building or the Empire State.  It's interesting that the infographic you posted had Taipei 101 as one of the example buildings.  I actually looked at images of that same building to draw the Urithiru poster, and pictures of Chinese pagoda architecture too.  They all have stacks of upward curved roofs and it gives an exotic look.  

Urithiru Concept

You gotta hand it to those ancient architects.  They must have fabrial segways or something to cross from one side of the ground floor to the other.

 

 

On 28/08/2016 at 10:24 AM, CarolaDavar said:

So. . . Ghostbloods The band, eh? What about. . . Bridge four the band!(I challenge you to draw that. But I won't force you.)"and then KAladin flew down from the sky, weilding. . . Was that a. . . Shardguitar?" 

Music is a feminine art in Vorinism, so most men (especially bridgement) would not have the inclination or leisure to learn how to play an instrument.  I don't think the Bridge Four band would be very good to listen to.  They're the kind of band that gets peanuts thrown at them at open mic night.

Scroll all the way down to see it.

 

 

On 30/08/2016 at 1:36 PM, Argel said:

 The obvious comparison is feudal Japan, but we don't have an equivalent to Samurai or the Code of Busihido on Roshar. If the culture was that heavy into death before dishonor, than Dalinar would have lost significant influence after the heavy losses when Sadeas tried to wipe him out. Sebarial pretty much proves the point -- paying fines to avoid combat would be intolerable in a death before dishonor type society. Vorin religion doesn't really match up either.

The Alethi culture is feudal Europe with hints of feudal Japan.

Either of you played the Legend of the Five Rings pencil and paper role-playing game?  Or read Shogun?

I have read Shogun before (and played Total War: Shogun), and know a little bit about feudal Japan and pre-gunpowder and Early Modern history, and my conclusion is that Alethi culture isn't any one culture, or even two cultures from IRL Earth, but influenced by many in small ways.  Generals or battallionlords of highprinces haven't been pressured into killing themselves if they are beaten to the chrysalis by the Parshendi.  Lighteyed nobles don't slap each other with gloves and aim to kill when they demand satisfaction.  Whilst they value honour enough to fight about it, as Adolin does, they don't go to the death, unless they are compelled by the King.  So the real question is: do Alethi value honour, or the appearance of having honour?   I think that is the difference between Dalinar and the Knights of old and the modern Alethi.

It's also interesting to note that in IRL history, people fought in pistol duels well into the 1800's when their honour was insulted.  It looks like Alethi mostly choose pragmatism over honour, or at least the top ranking lighteyes with something to lose.  I doubt they buy into the Tranquiline Halls/Rosharan Valhalla business either.

 

Quote

“Alas,” Rock said, pulling a tuft of moss off the wall, inspecting it as they walked. “Your insult has offended me. If we were at the Peaks, we would have to duel in the traditional alil’tiki’i fashion.”
“Which is what?” Teft asked. “With spears?”
Rock laughed. “No, no. We upon the Peaks are not barbarians like you down here.”
“How then?” Kaladin asked, genuinely curious.
“Well,” Rock said, dropping the moss and dusting off his hands, “is involving much mudbeer and singing.”
“How’s that a duel?”
“He who can still sing after the most drinks is winner. Plus, soon, everyone is so drunk that they probably forget what argument was about.”
Teft laughed. “Beats knives at dawn, I suppose.”

Chapter 27, "Chasm Duty", Way of Kings

So darkeyed Alethis also follow some sort of honour code system where arguments are settled by physical confrontation.  I wouldn't say that Alethi values mirror the Japanese honour codes, but they don't resemble feudal (pre 1400's) Europe 1:1 either.  In a real feudal situation, brightlords like Amaram would not be so blasé about throwing kids recruited from his fiefdom into the frontlines as cannon fodder.  Large landholders made their incomes from rents, and products produced or grown on their land, and the whole feudal system tied the workers to the land with carrots and sticks -- rights and privileges for registered tenants, punishments for those who ran away and got caught.  An IRL medieval European Amaram would be resentful of his liegelord Sadeas for conscripting his untrained peasants rather than hiring mercenaries when his professional armsmen fell short of the levy.

I wrote a couple of boring mini-essays comparing Alethkar to medieval/early modern Earth European history, if people are interested in reading my thoughts.
I've always been more interested in the culture, history and economy aspects of worldbuilding in fiction than theories about magic systems and faster-than-light travel.  For anyone who really enjoyed Shogun, there's a political fantasy version written by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts called "Daughter of the Empire" with a "death before dishonour" society that is way more intense than Alethkar's.  They even have a fantasy version of ronin.

 

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

That's an interesting explanation: I never thought it in such terms but then again, my drawing skills are currently limited to stick figures  I wouldn't know the first thing about anything more complex than a toy car and even then... My 3 years old once ask if daddy could draw it because mommy didn't do it right  I have other talents though 

The first panels in my process pictures are always rough outlines in basic blocks and simple shapes not that far from stick figures.  Learning to draw means being able to see things in front of you and around you, take them apart in your mind, and then put them back together adding colour and detail until you get a finished picture.  People look at the finished picture and think it's too hard, too complex for them to do something similar.  But the first step, and the basis to creating art, is not hard, technical skill-wise.  You need to train your mind, and that is done through endless repetition and observation.  That's the hard part.

If AU Adolin ever ends up in a management job where appearance and reputation matter a lot, would he wear fake glasses?  Or would it go too much toward making him look intelligent?  He avoids being a know-it-all in front of people, but Adolin has always had a problem with people underestimating his abilities.  Glasses help with the perception.  But fashionable glasses.  

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

I don't typically bother with authors personal life unless they really are chull heads. I wouldn't have bothered with Brandon either if he hadn't be so communicative to begin with. It is why I say it has both good and bad side. Of course, the good side easily trumps the bad side, but it does get several readers to create themselves expectations. Obviously the author cannot be fault for this: he doesn't create those expectations, he is just being very generous and kind. I also think he does enjoy speaking with his readership from times to times: he also doesn't do it often enough to truly impact his writing pace. I absolutely agree it is a mindset thing: you see others getting an answer they have been yearning to have or you see the author speaking to the fandom of a given character specifically and you wonder why he does not do it for questions/characters you are interested in.

Personally, I'm a bit conflicted about the existence of WoB's.  They are great because you can clarify things that you didn't understand from the books, and get some extra tidbits of information to fill in the months and years between book releases, but it makes a division between people who are extremely well-informed and the more casual readers who only read the book and don't bother with the "extra experience" from participation in the fan community.  Only a limited amount of people get to see Brandon in person to ask questions, and not all the questions get posted somewhere that is easily accessible and searchable (the official Theoryland website is out of date and the search function for 17S can be inconvenient to use when it puts a time limit between searches) so most of the information is  concentrated within a small pool of people.  I am not complaining about Brandon answering questions, but I do wish that new worldbuilding material not from the official Cosmere books was put in a separate book like the Pocket Companion or a "Worldhopper's Guide to the Cosmere" in a way that was accessible to everyone and not exclusive to small groups of people.  I would pay money for that.  I don't mean to sound salty, but it's a good reason why many authors don't do Q&A's as often as Brandon (then again, few authors have huge series in one universe).  And informal interview answers (JK Rowling's, for example) have a tendency to ruffle feathers if they happen to be on fan-divisive subjects.

You can't make everyone like you, and you can't be friends with everyone.  That is why trying to be friends with everyone you meet is unnecessary - it doesn't mean you have to be rude, but if you find that your personality is incompatible with someone else's, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with you, and you don't have to feel bad about it. Sometimes relationships stay at an acquaintance level rather than being true battleforged friends, and that's okay.  If it upsets you because not being able to form a meaningful friendship on a level of true empathy and understanding with everyone you meet feels like a rejection, you need to chill out.  I would not say that I am as much of an extrovert as you are, and I do enjoy company, but I value most of all the true friendships I have among a very few people.  They are the ones you work to maintain, but forming them is organic.  It just happens, when you "click".  Or whatever they call it these days.  The lesson is to not take things so personally.  You will be happier that way.  And downvotes will slide away from notice like tears in the rain.  

That was unexpectedly poetic.

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

Dalinar states, early in WoK, it may be one of Adolin's weaknesses: his familiarity with the men, his tendency to befriend them, to get to know them... In other words, he is getting too close which is why, when they die, it hurts him. A good battle field commander cannot have friends within the soldiers, he cannot laugh with the water boys, he cannot have happy jibs with the spearmen because he knows he may have to send them to their death later on. Adolin is just too sensitive and I think, it will eventually get to him. He's a good tactician, but either he emotionally disconnects himself completely from his men or he breaks down when they start to die in masses when the Desolation hits.

For someone who is described as so extroverted, Adolin has remarkably few friends, real or fake.  He courts girls for two weeks before getting dumped, and doesn't really have a chance to get to know them.  He drinks wine with fellow lighteyes, but they only hang around because his family is rich and influential.  He mentions feeling sad when Kholin soldiers die during the chasmfiend hunt, and after the Tower happened and the Cobalt Guard got decimated.  For someone who cares so much about his friends and former bodyguards, it was disappointing that his friendships were more informed than apparent on-screen, since it was just one passing line about how he missed them.  And even in WoK, there was barely any interaction.  Adolin doesn't go out to the pub like Kaladin.  He spends most of WoK and WoR with his family taking care of family problems.  

You may dislike this alternative character interpretation, but maybe Adolin is less extroverted than you think.  If he valued friendships so much, it seems strange that out of all the "friends" he has or had in the series, he confides his troubles with his Shardblade more than anyone else.  I know that you have disagreements with Brandon saying that Adolin is less complex a character than the rest of the cast, but the fact that a lot of his personality traits are informed sort of matches up to his role as a supporting character rather than a main protagonist.  His insecurity issues with girls are never explained since the dumping happens off-screen, and played for humour.  If it really mattered for characterisation rather than a contrived plot point that left him open to being set up with Shallan (see: trope), it would have been more than an off-hand mental note.

I do like Adolin as a character since he is purposefully written to be likeable, but from the beginning I had always picked up on the fact that he was the literary equivalent of an hors d'oeuvre and Kaladin was the entrée.

Out of his family members, Adolin seems closer to Navani as a parent figure than his actual father, who is his commanding officer.  He can talk about personal problems with Navani, like the Dalinar going crazy thing, and was familiar enough to warn her off seducing Dalinar because it looks bad.  It didn't work, but the attempt counts for something.  Compare his relationship to Renarin where he pressured his brother into taking Salinor's blade and Renarin never asked about the screaming in his head, even though Adolin is an internationally famous Blade expert that even rural, sheltered Shallan knew about.  Compare his relationship to Jasnah where he was more interested in flirting with Shallan instead of being worried that someone just killed his cousin and his other cousin Elhokar was almost assassinated the previous day.

Is it a cultural thing, or do Alethis just have their priorities out of whack?

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

Malta initially gets into a relationship with Reyn merely because he was fawning over her, giving her gifts and everything. She never had the intention to marry him, not at first. She doesn't start to love until much later in the story and the way she morphs from the bratty selfish spoiled girl to a determined woman truly was compelling, especially since her story arc was devoid of Hobb typical hopelessness. 

Malta growing up and turning out to be a genuinely good person was a immensely satisfying ending.  It made the contrast to how selfish and self-centred the dragons were, and they never got any better.  By the end of the Rain Wilds series, I started hating all the dragons and it would have been unbearable if the human characters were as terrible.  Malta as the sane voice of reason is something I never expected in the first Liveship book.  Oh, and by the way, the third trilogy has some "pat the dog" moments when Fitz gets recognised for his service in a most satisfying way.  Life still manages to screw him over, but at least he gets one good thing.  And by that time in the timeline, he is an old man with wisdom not to be as stupid as he was as a young man, and he has a magic combination that makes him more powerful than almost everyone.  I'm still waiting on the third book because the second book ends with the worst cliffhanger.

I could see Shallan/Renarin being a thing if the author had wanted to go that way.  It wouldn't have been the instant attraction of "he's hot/she's hot" that Shallan/Adolin had, but Renarin has hidden depths and Shallan could have been the one to help him reveal it to the world after telling him to stop moping and get on with his life, the way she did to Kaladin.  It would have taken more work to get it to happen in a feasible way, using a contrived Chasm Scene/Stuck in the Elevator situation, but it could have happened.  Honestly, I care more about an author developing a relationship in a meaningful and thoughtful way rather than disregarding predictable plotlines.  I don't care if Designated Protagonist gets together with Strong Female Lead as long as it's well done and not a series of sappy coincidences that YA and Harlequin romances are filled with.

Movie HP and Book HP are two completely different things, you must remember!  The movie was written and directed by a bunch of different people, so of course characters are inconsistent from movie to movie and lack the development of the book counterparts.  And HP is a series that doesn't have the meticulous and almost scientific worldbuilding that Sanderson and other newer fantasy authors have with all their research on axial tilt.  It doesn't hold up if you look too deep into it.  It seems super weird that most people got together with someone in their Hogwarts year group.  But according to Rowling, the Wizarding World of the UK is only 10k people, and marrying a Muggle is awkward since they have the Statute of Secrecy stuff (the reason why Harry got into so much trouble for doing magic outside of school).  And in-canon, Lily and James Potter got married and had Harry when they were 20 years old, pretty much straight out of school.  There are a lot of things I don't understand about HP, and it would only ruin my enjoyment if I thought too much about it.

My favourite horse books as a kid were The Black Stallion (1941) and Misty of Chincoteague (1947).  They're the type of old-fashioned wholesome classics with children whose parents let them run around in the woods with pocket knives and pellet guns, as long as they're home in time for dinner.  A lot of newer YA novels set on IRL Earth don't have that.  It's always disenfranchised foster home runaway teens and secret government child soldiers these days.

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

also agree one of Kaladin's problems is the fact he is basically a God: he can single-handily defeat every single foes put in front of him and not even break a sweat. It makes sense he would defeat Szeth, even if the new ending feels like cheating and misplaced honor. The problem isn't Szeth's demise, it is the fact he wasn't replaced by a greater opponent... and also the fact nobody truly thought for one second Kaladin wouldn't win. I didn't get the feel the fight was hard or difficult or dramatic: I got that feel during the 4 on 1 duel and during the Adolin/Szeth encounters, but I just do not get it in this over-powered fight in the air. This being said, I do not know what could have been changed to make it more... emotional.

I think we could rant on and on about Kaladin for days, for various reasons.  But hate the player, not the game.  You have to admit that Kaladin, due to choices he made and freak incidents of circumstance, is in the thick of the action most of the time, and the plot moves forward because of the things he does.  He may be the irritating Boy who Lived that even the storms couldn't kill, Chosen by Destiny to potentially be the Champion everyone was hoping for, but without him SA would be closer to a political fantasy with secret society after secret society all planning in circles.  I don't know if you have read political intrigue fiction within the genre of fantasy, sci-fi, or historical fiction, but unless they are paced very well, they can get pretty boring until the inevitable Plot Avalanche bit happens.  Without Kaladin, WoK would be even more tedious to new readers than it is already - just go on Goodreads and read those low star reviews on people complaining how long the buildup took.

The problem with Kaladin, in my eyes at least, comes down to how he is a pawn of the author and all the good and bad things thrown at him in his life were all contrived plot points to put him at the right place at the right time rather than an organic movement from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.  

 

Quote

“Give me a reason why he doesn’t!” Kaladin yelled, uncaring if the ardents heard. “It might not be his fault, and he might be trying, but he’s still failing.”
Silence.
“It’s right to remove the wounded limb,” Kaladin whispered. “This is what we have to do. To . . . To . . .”
To stay alive.
Where had those words come from?
Gotta do what you can to stay alive, son. Turn a liability into an advantage whenever you can.
Tien’s death.
Chapter 81, "The Last Day", Words of Radiance

Where had those words come from?  Convenient how this one sentence from five years ago conveniently pops up at the right place for Kaladin to save the day.

 

Quote

Kaladin narrowed his eyes, watching that Stormlight rise. It was raw power. No. “Power” was the wrong term. It was a force, like the Surges that ruled the universe. They made fire burn, made rocks fall, made light glow. These wisps, they were the Surges reduced to some primal form.
He could use it. Use it to . . .
For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds.
There.
He made the direction of the wall become down.
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

"There", and that's all it takes.  Well, that's convenient.

For a plot-driven story, this author contrived convenience serves to move the plot along, because otherwise WoR would be 1800 pages long and we'd have to slog through more chapters of Kaladin moping along.  But it annoys me and confirms in my mind that Kaladin has plot privileges and that any time he gets into a pickle, he will get out of it at the right time and right place after he has gotten the mandatory morality lesson.  The hero rises triumphant yet again, and I don't feel any sense of tension because I know he will be thrown an Awesome Moment in the Plot Avalanche.  

In these times where I get annoyed, my solution is to read other books.  Instead of over-dwelling on what I dislike, why not read things that I like?  Because I did not like the revised ending with Szeth's fight in WoR.  Brandon corrected it because he thought it was out of character for Kaladin to do what he did, but in my reading, I thought the new version was more OOC.  It didn't matter in the end because of you know what, but I'm still hung up about it.

 

Quote

“I want to beat that assassin,” Kaladin said, surprised by how vehemently he felt it.
“Why?”
“Because it’s my job to protect Dalinar ... that assassin deserves to die.”
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

 

Quote

“You sent him to the sky to die, assassin,” Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing from his lips, “but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life.”
Chapter 85, "Swallowed by the Sky", Words of Radiance.

Acting OOC to further the plot is one of the no-no's of rational fiction.  I didn't think the scene was as awesome as everyone else thought it was.  I thought it was kind of sad.  Szeth came to a realisation that the Knights Radiant were back and his whole life as Truthless was a lie as he was dying.  If you know something of stage operas, one thing they like doing is sing a melodramatic sad song while they die, and when they finish the last note, they drop dead.  That's how contrived I thought the ending of WoR was, with You Know Who at the right place at the right time to rescue Szeth before he became completely braindead.

Maybe I'm too picky because I'm complaining about fantasy fiction being unrealistic.  I don't mind fantasy elements in fantasy.  It's just a personal preference for characters and the invisible hand of author-involvement to be more consistent, and if foreshadowing and Chekhov's Guns are around, they could be a bit more subtle.  And with Kaladin as a character, he is anything but subtle.  

 

 

I dislike when the readers know the answer to the mystery that the Multi-POV cast haven't figured out yet because they didn't bother to talk to one another and compare notes.  It's justifiable and acceptable if everyone is questing all over the continent, but if magic mirrors, scrying glasses, and Magic Telephones exist in the universe, I'd be tearing my hair out in frustration.  I dislike withholding information for stupid reasons also.  I dislike zombie stories for this reason, because there is always, ALWAYS, going to be someone who gets bitten and hides it from the rest of the group until it's too late.   Especially when everyone knows there's no cure, and the consequence of a bite is ALWAYS turning zombie.

I don't actually mind introspective characters, as long as they are well-written.  The better written ones tend to be self-aware and I can better understand how they make decisions, act, and react within the plot, even though I might not personally agree with their values or ethics.  On the other hand, I don't think being an extrovert makes a character automatically more interesting, solely because of their rarity value.  In one series I read, there was an extrovert character whose character flaw was that she liked people and attention too much and it always got her into trouble because she was a wanted criminal.  It was a part of her personality like Kaladin's depression, and she couldn't change it, so it always led to her cover getting blown just when she thought she was safe.  I can't re-read it because of how much frustration I remember feeling in certain parts pretty much the whole series.
For the curious, the series is "Bloody Jack" by LA Meyer.

 

 

 

 

  Has anyone seen the movie or read the book "Starship Troopers"?

 

 

"Kill 'em all" is a meme line from the movie.  The basic plot of story is a rich kid joining the army to kill alien bugs in powered armour.

Pretty much plateau runs IN SPACE with nuclear Shardplate.  I actually drew the mech suit to look similar to Adolin's Shardplate.  The helmet's face opening is designed to resemble the shape of his helm visor.

 

Well, I thought it was funny.

Does anyone know if the Fashion Folio pages from Words of Radiance are canon representations of Rosharan ethnicities?  Or does it have an "artistic license" factor, like how the Michael Whelan Way of Kings cover art isn't supposed to be an exact depiction of any scene.

Interestingly, the Alethi man looks Eurasian or Central Asian, and the Makabaki/Azish man looks Middle Eastern.  It makes a pretty useful reference if you are working on a more detailed "Peoples of Roshar" infographic. 

 

And I did a homemade "Thaylen Fashion Folio page".

With ships because Thaylens are the merchant people of Roshar. 

 

 

 

I would really really love it if SA#3 has more Fashion Folio pages.  It's awesome worldbuilding material.  It doesn't even matter that the tiny script-font text is impossible to read on an eReader.  I just like looking at the pretty pictures.

On 21/08/2016 at 2:23 AM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, those art deco posters are freakin' amazing! 

Not much I've got to add here, I'm just going to gush here a bit. I love art deco, so these are awesome. Also, may I have the big version of the Urithiru one? I'm not sure where I'd hang it right now, but I'm certainly going to use it for any future room redecoration. 

Regarding Hoid, he might have grabbed some sort of ability that would let him change the centre of his mass; or have the coin start perceiving the hand and the rest of the body as two separate entities. Considering we have shapeshifter races in the Cosmere, there are probably some shapeshifter-esque magics as well.... and now imagine what Hoid could do if Kandra-like shapeshifting ability fell into his lap. 

Oh, and regarding what you've noted about Urithiru's endless floors, here's a fun, if not very important fact: going by online data I've found, Urithiru would be about 421 metres tall. Has it been built on Earth, it would be 18th tallest freestanding man-made structure and 10th tallest building in the world. 

I like Art Deco, and Art Nouveau too, but I would have to switch up my character designs a bit for them to fit the Art Nouveau aesthetic - human proportions and anatomy-wise, it's close to realistic.  And it uses a lot of geometric shapes in the backgrounds and borders inspired by IRL Earth plants and flowers, which wouldn't translate to Roshar, so I would have had to figure out what to substitute.  I was lazy, and didn't want to outline a bajillion rockbuds.  That's why I went Art Deco.  And the fact that someone else has done Art Noveau SA, but no one has done Art Deco.  I like a lot of old art styles; there was an old-fashioned engraving poster set I did a couple of pages ago.

Hoid the ability grabber?  Sharders get triggered when someone says that Reckoners-verse is Cosmere, but if Hoid was secretly Calamity...

I had trouble picturing Urithiru's scale because I had difficulty imagining the building itself.  It's supposed to be like cups stacked on top of each other... are the cups' openings facing down, or facing up?  Which changes the angles of the terraces and the silhouette of the whole building.  I don't think any other fan artist knows, since I've seen it both ways when someone bothers to draw it (which is rare).  All I see is "inspiration boards" using paintings of the Tower of Babel ripped off Google.

 

On 21/08/2016 at 4:05 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

@sheep, I am quite advanced with pencils. I should improve my coloring tho XD.

I mainly just need a Wacom tablet

My notebook pile is alot bigger XD

Everyone has room to improve, no matter their current skill status.  There is no level cap in art.  THE GRIND IS FOR LIFE.

In my experience, if you take a break from doing one thing because you think you're good, the skills deteriorate when you come back unless you're brushing up on a regular basis.  I used to be pretty good at coloured pencils but didn't use them for 2-3 years and when I picked them up again, I was scratching at the paper and thinking to myself that it was harder than I remembered.  It was a weird but humbling experience.

 

On 23/08/2016 at 1:39 AM, CarolaDavar said:

Wow. Okay then. I'll try it out. I am taking an art class this year, and I will probably learn more there. (And, just so you you know my stack of sketch books is about 3 ft tall, and the stack of random sketches on whatever paper is even larger.) Thanks for the tips.

The tips I posted are usually the same ones an art teacher will give to students on their first few drawing lessons.  Unless it's an art theory/history class, which means you get to discuss art and write essays about it, but you don't get to make things of your own.  

If you keep all your notebooks, 10 years later, you will have an insanely effective source of nostalgia cringe.  It's like looking at old yearbook photos with ugly bowl-cut hair, but worse.

 

On 23/08/2016 at 5:59 AM, Argent said:

It's not like I had ever given up on it or anything. But I am a theorycrafter at heart, so those are the threads I prioritize when my time is limited. Add a month-long vacation on top of that (during which I didn't touch the forums)... well, by the time I felt like I could go back and catch up on some art, you had drawn a few zillion things. Which I don't want to look at unless I've also read the snippets you have, because I think that's important when evaluating the art. 

So... one day.

I've always found it interesting how different people show their interest in the same book series.  We all find different things to enjoy in the Brandon-verse, from analysis and discussion to generating creative content, but somehow we're all here on the Shard.

The text that comes with the picture isn't super serious artist statement stuff.  It doesn't point out secret Satanic messages hidden in a 6x6 square of pixels in the corner.  The art can be viewed perfectly fine without text - I personally think art shouldn't require text for a viewer to get it, unless it's a comic strip or something.  I just type stuff for context, and to show where the designs come from Brandon and where they come from my imagination.

It's kind of like the production notes in the DVD extras of your favourite movie.  You don't need them, and other artists don't bother, but I like them, and that's why I make them.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

How can any teacher think drawing charcoal fruit bowls is more inspiring than dragons??? 

Drawing fruit bowls and life drawing in general forces students to analyse their environments and break down a scene in front of them into its most basic components.  Sitting there, you end up realising how all those earlier lessons on perspective, shape, colour, form and shadow end up tying together.  Those skills are pretty flexible and can be used for drawing other things.  Whereas when you draw dragons from your imagination, you only really get good at drawing dragons.  

If Adolin was better at school subjects with applied mathematics, like chemistry or physics or statistics, he wouldn't be able to get away with playing the dumb student.  Those types of subjects, at least once you get past the high school level, you either show you get it, or you don't and they politely suggest you transfer to something better suited to your aptitudes.  I just can't see Adolin the Actuary or Adolin the Accountant. 

He would be able to do it if he applied his obsessive Kholin singlemindedness to it like he does with duelling, but I don't think it would make him happy.  I think Adolin would be better at vocational subjects than academic ones.  When I was in school, there was woodshop class, sewing, cooking, and architectural drafting.  Trade skills can be as useful as book learning, no matter what Jasnah and Shallan think.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

You can't expect authors to be as communicative as Brandon, but when you stumble on one, he does end up creating the expectations he will be. This is why when the author is seen to communicate several piece of information other readers yearned to have while not communicating others, there are some which get disappointed. In a perfect world, negative feelings of disappointment would never exist, but since this is the real-world then, yes having a very communicative author does have its perks and its downsides. In your Holt Renfrew example, yes I would be disappointed if they suddenly stopped giving out the gift bags after a 500$ expense within their stores just as I was disappointed when my gym stopped giving me a free training bag upon each renewal of my subscription. Mind, I am still a member at the same gym, but I have said from times to times they had gotten cheap. Since then, I have stopped complaining because they actually allow me to keep on training at my extremely low monthly rate due to myself being a long-term client, but still. Hence the problems is as soon as you create expectations, you create disappointment: one does not go without the other. Nobody has to create the expectations to begin with, but they are inevitable. 

In my mind, I have mostly separated authors as people from the works they create.  I want to read the stories in a fictional universe without bothering about an author's personal life or what they do that isn't related to their writing.  That's why I can still enjoy Ender's Game without reading too deeply into Orson Scott Card's personal beliefs, which have ruined the series for other people.  Compared to other authors I follow or have followed in the past, Brandon is probably top-3 in terms of fan interaction.  There are couple of authors I know of who have forums set up by their publishers where they post in person and answer direct questions, but the vast majority of authors just post updates for book signings or sales of their books and merch, or advertise their newest book.  I hold Brandon on a expectation scale compared to all other authors, and compared to them, he is an absolute machine.  You compare all Brandon interactions to how often he has replied to posts in the past, and get disappointed if he doesn't answer as many questions now as he did a year  ago.  It's a mindset thing, I think.  Brandon doesn't create expectations; everyone creates them in their own heads.  That's why they are so different from person to person, where some have none and some have them up way too high.  And you have to keep in mind that the time he takes to write detailed answers for people is time that he isn't spending on his newest book.  

You just need to chill, gancho.  Not getting an answer from an author isn't the end of the world, and neither is getting a downvote.  Life is less stressful if you don't try to analyse yourself or other people when things like that happen, or take it personally.  I've always found that trying to fit in is easier if you make it organic rather than worrying about downvotes or upvotes or whatever.  Why does it even matter?  They are just coloured arrows.  

Shallan wouldn't have needed Tyn to turn her lying and secretive.  She's got plenty of that on her own.  I always thought that Tyn was another female role model teaching realistic life lessons that Shallan never got in her sheltered past life.  Just like Jasnah wanted to teach Shallan a lesson in that alley in Kharbranth, and show her how power is all about perception with the Thaylen sailors when she wanted to draw the lucky giant squid thing, Tyn's presence was a continuation of that, a way to toughen Shallan up and prepare her for journey as a Radiant.  The same way Lirin and Kaladin amputated that girl's fingers in the first flashback chapter in WoK was a lesson about what it means to save people.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

Does Alethi commander know how to lose? I hope they do.. In each battle, there is a winner and a loser: Adolin has never really been on the losing side. If he managed to get to the gemstone last, it still, technically, isn't a lost, it isn't a retreat. If he ever went through one, it was never mentioned: it is fair to say the Tower was the worst battle Adolin ever partake in and it left him shaken. It may be, as you say, no other commander have this experience, but we can be sure fighting in the Desolation will imply their fair share of rout and strategic defeats. While I am convinced someone like Dalinar wouldn't be personally impacted by such an event, I can't say I am convinced the same would happen to Adolin... Maybe I am wrong, but Adolin is young and his battle experience isn't as extensive as his father: the Shattered Plains hardly even counts as a war. For the record, Kaladin doesn't know how to lose either, but since he isn't a battle field commander, he may never have to live through it.

If Alethi culture is as warlike as warlike cultures on Earth, there's the possibility that an Alethi commander won't accept defeat unless there is absolutely no one else left to fight, total war "to the last man" style.  It's the death before dishonour type mentality, where even though the Kholins lost two thirds of their men at the Tower, they didn't "lose" because there was still one third left to throw at either Sadeas or the Parshendi.  The difference between the typical Alethi commander (Dalinar included) and Adolin is that men and soldiers are tools to use to achieve a means, and Adolin thinks of his men as real people with human lives and families and other nice things.  I would expect that any mental breakdown that Adolin gets as a result of losing a "for real" battle is more due to the senseless loss of life rather than an ego-blow of being a big fat loser, and any typical Alethi who sees Adolin beating up walls in Shardplate or carving holes in the floor with his Blade afterwards would assume he's doing it because of his shaken ego.  He projects the confident image, and people assume he's confident, but in reality he has really sensitive feelings.  I found it interesting that Adolin's mental dialogue pointed out that Jakamav's termination of friendship in WoR shook him up worse than all the Shardplate shenanigans fighting for the gemheart, and they could have died from that if something went wrong.

Kaladin is the weird one where the people he has accepted into his "sphere of protection", such as his squad in Amaram's army, or fellow cage slaves, or Bridge Four are real people worth protecting.  The people who don't fall into his protection bubble are the ones he doesn't care about, and aren't real people to him.  This would be the lighteyed cavalry who died in the side carry chapter, Gaz's boss Lamaril, and Elhokar until the end of WoR.  

Kaladin would call Shallan's ability to have people want to take care of her and keep her safe "lighteyed privilege".  And the funny part is that he himself falls for this ability after their adventure in the chasms.  As a character trait, I find Shallan's ability mildly Mary Sue-ish, but it is mostly justified by her magical powers, since I personally don't find her as funny as other characters keep telling me that she is.   It has the effect of making her interactions with other characters and gaining their trust so easy that a lot of tension is lost when Shallan can just talk her way out of bad consequences.  I liked that Navani was not immediately won over by Shallan's sweet talking that Dalinar and Adolin and presumably Elhokar (who gave her the pardons for her guards) were at first impression.  By the end of WoR, Navani was cold to Shallan multiple times and it was only those last 2 weeks that the chasm thing happened and she warmed up.  Two weeks with Shallan and Navani supports her over two decades of being Adolin's aunt?  Ugh, please no.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

I agree Molly would have never been happy had she chose to settle down with Fitz early on. Fitz would have never been happy either had he settled down with Molly. He just wasn't in the right mood frame to be a husband, but then this is typical Hobb. To have her characters being shuffle away from their intended path early on is her trademark... Fitz, Althea, Wintrow, Sedric, Neware and I could go on, the list is long. Malta and Reyn, strangely never bothered me. Reyn was clearly looking for something he hadn't find within the Rain Wild while Malta was a brat who thought playing at being a seductress merely was a game, until she gets caught into it. She had a lot of growth and having her learn to appreciate Reyn, despite his scars was really endearing: the age difference never bothered me, as strange as it may sound considering how bothered I usually am with it. It probably is because there weren't any other characters available for shipping while in SA, I keep wondering why Adolin has to be so much older than everyone else.

I thought that Malta and Reyn were kind of questionable as a couple at first, because Malta's introduction made it pretty clear she was naive, didn't think about consequences when she spent her family's money on things they couldn't afford, and was easily taken advantage of, when she went to that dodgy dressmaker.  This stereotypical bratty teenage girl which would be perfectly translated to modern Earth is exactly the kind of person who shouldn't be getting into relationships with anyone, let alone some guy who is half a decade older and wants a serious long-term relationship where Malta just wants to flirt and have pretty things bought for her.  If they didn't get character development, their relationship would have ended up as a trainwreck.  Fitz's problem was that his character development took decades and he is an old man by the Fitz and Fool trilogy, and Molly wouldn't have waited for him to grow up.

Adolin is the only guy other than Kaladin or Renarin who is in the same age-range as Shallan.  When Jasnah set up the betrothal, Shallan didn't care which brother it was, and would have been grateful to have Renarin because he was still a prince and a Kholin.  Who knows what could have come of that?  Shallan might dislike Renarin for his weirdness, but she'd still be polite and flirty with him because that is expected for her.  The male with the closest age to Shallan was Tien, who would be one year older if he was alive.  More open-minded readers would expand the net to include everyone, not just guys or Alethi/Vedens or even humans, to be potential future partners.  But Shallan is Vorin, and I don't think Vorin church ardents would accept a marriage contract with them.

The Ron supporters out there say that he is the heart of the group, helping Harry feel less weird about being the Boy Who Lived celebrity, and Hermione being the Muggleborn class prodigy.  He is the only one fully brought up in the magical world, while Harry and Hermione spent all of their early childhoods and their summers iin the Muggle world.  In the first book, Ron takes on the magical chessboard for them, and when Hermione angsts over one of the puzzles, he yells at her "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT".  So he does bring something to the group, and is a good friend when he doesn't get hit by the puberty hormones starting from book 6.  He and Hermione or even Hermione and Harry could have ended up dating given enough time, but the problem with the ending to HP7 was how abrupt it was.  One chapter, not enough buildup.  In comparison, Ginny had a bit more buildup and character development for her relationship with Harry.  She got over her crush, the Tom Riddle mindcontrol thing and dated other people, and continued calmly with her life.  Cho Chang was an emotional rollercoaster.  After the war, I think Ginny's personality would have suited Harry much better, if the whole deal where Harry looks like James and Ginny is a redhead like Lily doesn't freak you out.

Cornelia Funke is a German author and "Dragon Rider" took a few years to be translated into English.  The books about animals I suggested a few posts up are 20-50+ years old, and they should have translations out there, but maybe not at your local library.  When I was a kid I loved books about animals, and the selection for children focused mostly on pet dogs and pet horses in the English countryside, with other animals being rarer.  Kid books about dragons seem to be a newer trend because they were never that common as they are now.  Same with ninja, assassin, super spy, martial artist, secret organisation operative kid protagonists.  Protagonists in the old days were just regular neighbourhood kids with homework and paper routes.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

What narrative plot point would it serve? Getting Adolin out of the way for Kaladin? Cement Adolin into the one protagonist who never develops into a hero? Make him go onto a downward spiral without any hope to climb back up until he dies of it and thus, give all the room to Kaladin? Realistically speaking, it serves no purpose for Adolin's character development providing he becomes a fully fleshed out character, but it may serve purpose for other characters. It may merely be a ploy to get Adolin out of the way in order to allow the main narrative to focus on the other characters. Now, I doubt the author would do this, but we never know. Still, I agree it is a terrible story arc, quite boring too.

I dislike "forced marriage with mutual dislike" type plots common in political fantasies and historical fiction.  Outside of romance novels where the girl and the guy gradually get to know each other and fall in love for reals, the "realistic" plotline is something very depressing where both partners are miserable together and end up cheating or poisoning one another.  Unless it is handled well as a secondary or tertiary plotline, it becomes very unpleasant to read and goes nowhere until someone dies.  Cersei and Robert, ugh, no thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a protagonist gaining new powers through hard work or an in-universe god.  The problem of being boring comes from the lack of conflict and tension when the newly powered protagonist can easily win any fight he participates in.  You aren't on the edge of your seat when it's a guaranteed win every single time, just like being a level 100 game character crawling the noob dungeons and every single monster you meet can be killed with a single click of the mouse and swipe of the sword.  It becomes so easy that there's no effort, no fun, no sense of achievement.

That's Kaladin when the main Big Bad Monster of the series (Szeth) just gives up and is killed.  Up until then, Szeth was going around killing piles of Shardbearers in the Veden court, the Azish primes one after the other, and a bunch of other world leaders.  To retain tension when leveling up protagonists, you have to have a balance, and either level up the villains as well, or introduce new villains with an increased difficulty as lots of superhero cartoons do with their Rogue Galleries.  Or you go the opposite route (which I rant about) which is where the author tries to retain tension by de-leveling the protagonist and he loses his powers for an episode, or is gets the Idiot Ball and forgets he could fly or walk through walls.

One of the key features of rational fiction is that the characters have to stay in character at all times, and all of the actions that occur happen because the characters did them, not because the plot demanded it happen.  In rational fantasies, saving the world can happen.  But it happens because the protagonist understood what the villain was up to and took steps to prevent him from blowing the moon up or spreading the zombie virus, and didn't stick around to listen to the villain's pre-world domination bragging speech where the dastardly plans are explained in full detail.  There can be impulsive actions from characters, but only if the character was established as impulsive and the action doesn't violate any of the previous characterisation.  Elhokar might order Kaladin arrested for execution after the duel, because he is petty and spoiled.  Elhokar would not order all of Bridge Four executed as punishment because he is only petty and not sociopathic.  Some authors would do it as a contrived plot point to make Kaladin darker and more vengeful, and that is what rational fiction seeks to avoid.  If the trauma stick is applied, it not only has to have a purpose, but it has to make sense in the story and not just be author-guided bad luck like what happens to Fitz.

I find reading rational stories really refreshing because I face-palm much less often, and it's a good thing to decompress with after watching a movie where you throw popcorn at the screen because the characters are just so darn stupid.   And contrived plot coincidences get my eyes rolling.   I don't have a problem with Kaladin saving Elhokar or saving Dalinar at the end of WoR.  I just find it highly coincidental that Kaladin came to his moment of truth that Elhokar was Dalinar's Tien exactly at the right moment to stop Moash.  And then he flies across the Plains at the right moment to catch Dalinar in the air and stop Szeth.  With one liners each time.

Kaladin is overpowered relative to everyone else.  He can one hit kill pretty much everyone at this point.  In the first book, a Shardbearer, a Chasmfiend, and an experienced Surgebinder were established as the three most dangerous opponents on Roshar, and by WoR, Kaladin has defeated all three.  Sure, his power level makes him "awesome" but there's no conflict and no tension just like if he had been Merrin the Shardbearer.  You expect Adolin to get a beatdown as the first step to spren awakening, but I am eagerly anticipating Kaladin getting a beatdown for humility in SA3.  

 

We're all horribly biased.  I have a personal dislike of characters who know important things but don't do anything about it, like you dislike secretive characters.  I feel that having important facts and taking no action can be as stupid as doing stupid things directly, and I have no patience for secretive personal "issues" being an excuse for such behaviour when these issues are so lightly touched upon that they sound more like informed excuses rather than a solid reason.  We all dislike that flakey friend who sends you a text message saying "sorry didn't feel like coming today" when "I'm getting a new kidney" is so much better.  

That's why Renarin and Wit annoy me. 

 

 

 

On 12/08/2016 at 1:43 AM, Argent said:

Oh, like 2 months ago

I'm curious - what made you come back to this thread?

I am aware that my art style isn't appealing to everyone (like my old art teacher, haha), and doesn't match everyone's mental images of what fictional things look like, and that's a perfectly valid reason not to have any interest in this thread.  I find it kind of unusual that you gave it another go.

 

On 12/08/2016 at 5:58 AM, Rasarr said:

As always, an excellent art batch, even if for some reason, I can't get over Adolin's trademark Kholin® wetsuit and surfboard. Do they sell those in sets?  I think I've been speculating about Vorin swimsuit in You Know You're A Sanderfan thread (I ended up with what was basically burqini without head cover and with safehand glove - vorkini!), but you're right, that's more fit to darkeye ladies. Perhaps ligheyes would have some sort of rigid swimming pocket sewn into their left sleeve? It would probably be awful to actually swim in, considering how just holding something in your hand can impact movement in water. 

Love that highstorm picture, especially the way the face in the storm and the shape of the window make it look like it's a humanoid figure. The only - only! - minor complain I'd have towards this batch of arts is that iron and steel allomancy works towards and away from body's centre of mass, so no way Wit would be able to do this trick unless his right hand is his centre of mass. But it looks cool!

Also: there is such thing as Cosmere guys pinup calendar... I am quite literally out of words 

It's all custom.  When you're rich, you can get everything made to order and personalised.  Kaladin gets his clothes one-size-fits all at the quartermaster's storage room, but Adolin's underpants probably have his initials monogrammed on the waistband.

Jasnah goes full skin when she takes a bath.  The practical answer to "what to wear when at the pool" for high ranking Vorin ladies is to have separate areas for swimming.  But if a lady wants to swim with the guy, the realistic solution is something prudish and Victorian-esque, like a black woollen drawstring sack that goes around the wrist and turns into a wet lump when wet, instead of clinging to the skin like silk would, or high tech scuba fabrics.

Yeah, when I drew Wit I realised halfway through that if he did this with canon physics, the coin would fly off at an angle in the direction of the viewer.  But it wouldn't look as cool, so my excuse is artistic licence.  One of the Misborn E2.0 books had a character asking Wax about his coinshotting abilities and how weirdly it mixes with his feruchemy in unexpected ways, and Hoid has other magical abilities from his home planet.  Maybe they would react with allomancy so he could control certain effects.

With a large enough fandom, it's only a matter of time for weird niche topics or crossovers to come into existence.  

 

On 12/08/2016 at 6:27 AM, Argel said:

Impressive results, though I think you need therapy for that level of self-torture!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!! Great one!! Liked the inclusion of The Stick!! Liked Kaladin's surfboard design!!

I used to draw on MS Paint with a mouse, which is not very far from the party games in the Tenth Circle of Braize.  Even Taln would hesitate to make a heroic last stand if he knew that  was what he was facing.  Hooks?  Fires?  How about carpal tunnel!
I don't know what I was thinking back then... It probably builds character or something.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 2:50 AM, CarolaDavar said:

How do you do faces?! And people in general?! (Really, any tips?)

The most important part is understanding the shape of the body and how it looks when you view it from a bunch of different angles.  Learn the shape of the skull and human skeleton and how all the muscles layered on top work, and they are pretty much the basics you need to know to draw recognisable humans.  Use a mirror to practice faces and expressions and learn the proportions of the human face.  There are certain proportions most people have in common, such as the placement of the eye sockets and nasal cavity, and once you have them down everything gets easier. 

EXAMPLE

For figure drawing, if you don't have live subjects to practice with, I suggest Posemaniacs.  You can view the skeletons from a bunch of different angles and rotate them - the 3 minute drawing exercise is useful for building skills.  

Once you learn "the rules", you can start deliberately breaking them, and learn to stylise.  It's usually what art teachers suggest you do first, since you become a more flexible artist if you learn all the "classics" before branching off into developing a personal style.  I have plenty of stories about the art teacher I had as a kid who said it was a waste for me to spend my time drawing comic book things and cartoon dragons when I could be more productive drawing fruit bowls in charcoal.

The real secret to getting good is grinding.  Endless, endless grinding.  
You don't have to draw every single day, but you have to do it consistently.  

Here's something crazy - this is about 6 or 7 years' worth of sketchbooks.  That's 1 A3 size book, 5 A4 books, a handful of lined notebooks, and 4 A5 books.  The coffee mug is for size comparison.  I don't do "a sketch a day" that some artists do, but I try to draw on a regular basis.  Sometimes I can go weeks without drawing on paper, and sometimes I can burn through 30 pages in a weekend.  

NOTEBOOK PILE

And here is something from the first pages of the oldest notebook.  Feel free to laugh.

POINT AND LAUGH

 

 

On 19/08/2016 at 6:32 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

I wish I was good at digital art.

I  guess traditional will have to do for now, until I get the proper tools and time for digital :/

Expensive tools aren't a cheat code to suddenly being amazing.  That's one of the most repeated rules in art that get quoted whenever a newbie artist asks whether or not a Wacom Cintiq will up their art-game.  Fancy Japanese knives with the ripple lines on the blade won't turn you into a professional-level chef if you can't cook.

Improve your pencil and paper skills.  It will improve your skills in other areas of art you decide to venture in the future.

Honestly, sometimes I feel that all the shortcuts in digital art have weakened my traditional art game and taught me some bad habits.  Instead of placing lines more neatly and more precisely in pencil, my muscle memory has been trained to mash the CTRL+Z command (Undo), so I am messy in a way that would make my art teacher frown.  My lines are what he used to call "hairy lines" instead of one single continuous stroke.  And the small working area of a tablet has trained me out of doing sweeping gestural "whole arm" strokes for long lines because only "wrist strokes" fit on a tablet.

When I pick up a pencil for the first time in weeks and draw on paper, my first thoughts are often "Man, I could do this and this on the computer and it would look so much better" and that's probably an indication I should get better at traditional.

 

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

In the modern AU where Facebook exists, I'd say Adolin actually went to school... Do not forget, Adolin tends to invest himself into anything his society deems important while dispelling anything else for fear of trying out at something not required and being bad at it.

In a modern AU where Facebook exists, Adolin wouldn't be a Shardbearer or participate in duels.  So there's a chance he and Jakamav would still be friends.  Being illiterate would be pretty much impossible in a modern world, so AU Adolin would be monolingual, dislike mathematics, and is the type of person who watches the movie and skims the Cliffnotes edition rather than read the school-assigned book.

Focus groups or test audiences are a staple of market research for designing products, and a  guaranteed bestselling novel from a reliable and proven author is, essentially, a product being sold at the end of the day.  So having beta readers is a useful thing, but because the format of a novel means that it has one main creator, it's completely up to Brandon how much he listens to the readers.  His book will sell thousands of copies no matter what he does.  TVTropes calls it "Protection from Editors".

Brandon giving updates and being communicative with the fan community is fantastic and sets him apart from other authors who aren't so interactive, but it's not something I expect from an author, or from anyone involved with creating serial media that I enjoy.  I mean, it's great that he does it, but I don't expect him to, nor do I think anyone should feel he is obligated to be as communicative as he is.  It's like if Holt Renfrew had a members' club, and  if you spent $500 in a year and scanned your members' card with every purchase, you got a gift bag with scented lotions and shampoo and stuff.  Holt Renfrew doesn't have to give you a gift bag, and it would be silly to be angry if the next year you bought $500 worth of stuff and they cancelled their offer and you didn't get the gift bag.  Because you got $500 worth of goods for your $500, and that is all they're obligated to give you.  So it kind of bothers me if people think Brandon is expected to acknowledge his readers.  It is nice that he does, but it shouldn't be taken for granted, and I think it's a healthier attitude if everyone is happy that Brandon answered a question at all rather than being disappointed that he has left questions unanswered.  I have been to non-Brandon signings before and no other author answers questions like he does.  Most of them just sign your book and hustle you along to make room for the next person.

And it could be that Brandon doesn't answer everyone's questions because he would rather not answer than give a short answer that has the potential to lead readers to assume things so they end up reading the next book with biased perceptions, and ruining the experience.  Kinda like watching the movie first before reading the book - your mental imagery is all skewed and if you know who dies, the suspense is gone.  Or it could be that anything he might hint about is a spoiler.  In that case, it's better to go silent because saying "RAFO" over and over is frustrating to him and to the people who ask the questions.  

I think it's just you being so obsessive about Adolin.  The solution, but you probably already know it, is to read other things.  

You dislike Tyn and Jakamav because they were mean, directly or indirectly, to Adolin... That's an interesting way to react to characters.  I don't think they actually hated Adolin, or even knew him that well, really.  They were more self-centred and self-serving than deliberately antagonistic towards Adolin, and that is why I don't hate them like you do.  In fact, I wish Tyn had stayed alive for a little longer, because Shallan could have learned more neat tricks and she was in no danger of being turned evil.  But she had to die so Shallan could learn independence, for the same reason why Jasnah and Lin Davar had to go.

Also - regarding unpopular opinions.  Downvotes and upvotes are just imaginary internet points.  The official justification for giving downvotes is for people who are needlessly rude or offensive (-insert character- is -insert swear word-, personal attacks and insults, etc), or are off-topic (derailing, spam).  Downvotes aren't meant to be used when your opinion is different from someone else and you're too lazy to counterthem with a post.  But people still do it anyway because lol rules r 4 chumps.  And that's why you should ignore them if it bothers you so much.  It's not like these silly points do anything.  

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

I agree interesting character conflicts sprout from complicated relationships which are more developed than merely having someone be evil and mean for the shake of it. Dalinar certainly wants the best for his son, but alas he is just a man with his own personal issues. I suspect Dalinar, much like Kaladin, is an introverted feeler, which means how he feels about events/people/things direct his behavior, but he does not allow those to come through externally. It other words, unlike expressive and impulsive Adolin, Dalinar kept it all on the inside, bundling into a tight pack, waiting for the right moment to explode. Exactly like Kaladin: always striving to find the rational to justify his feelings and thus take actions. Those two characters are so similar, it is baffling. Young Dalinar perhaps is what young Kaladin could have become had Tien not died: exulting his overload of emotions onto the battlefield, slaying his enemies, claiming it for his own while being capable to assert each man's worth without discrimination. 

Oh Dalinar.  He is a hammer and all problems are nails, and therefore can be solved the same way.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that Adolin's situation isn't a problem caused by Dalinar being a failure of a father, who was too much focused on the greater good and producing a perfect son, but rather a side effect of the warrior culture in Alethkar.

If Dalinar was a monster when he was the Blackthorn, it was lauded and glorified by Alethi culture, and he was considered the greatest warrior in the newly unified country.  He's a product of his society, and his bad habits were not criticised; Dalinar only decided killing indiscriminately was wrong on his own, because no one ever told him not to.

Alethi society seems pretty weird and alien when you think about it from a wider perspective, because doting parents are rare (people like Sadeas and Kaladin think Renarin is spoiled and soft because of how gently he is treated), and children are expected to be more obedient and self-sufficient than anyone expects of modern-day Earth children.  You have Adolin starting training at 6 years old, Kaladin beginning his surgeon apprenticeship at 10, lighteye children in the city being officers' aides, Tient being recruited at 13, Kaladin being in a combat unit at 15, and Laral and Navani married at 16.  So what Alethi in general expect of children is something that would never fly by our modern day viewpoints, with laws against child labour and making important decisions up until age 21.  That's possibly why Dalinar doesn't seem anything unusual in the way he and Adolin have a father-son relationship, because it is within the normal range of behaviour for fathers and sons, with some veering into the strict end because Adolin is his heir as well as his subordinate officer.

A character reader would of course be focused on Dalinar as the source of the conflict in a family drama, but I think it's a bit more than that.  People are products of their environment, and the society that promotes manipulation and backstabbiness for power is the same one that encourages the search for excellence as a test of worthiness.  This last one is probably ingrained in Adolin since he had ardents as tutors as a kid, and from what we've seen, lighteyed children are taught from a young age Vorin priests owned by their parents.  It's great worldbuilding, but a messed up world.

Does any Alethi commander really know how to lose?  In their mind, the loser is the person who gives up first, which is why years after being forcibly pacified b Gavilar, they're still fighting pointless border skirmishes.  And that is why they continued to wage a war of attrition against the Parshendi.  If Adolin learns how to command and regroup a battalion after a complete rout rather than a strategic defeat, he might be mentally broken because of it, but in the end he'll be more experienced that any other commander.  I don't think even Kaladin knows how to lose for reals.  The last time he felt real defeat was the Honor Chasm in WoK and he only recovered from it because he had Syl.

And Adolin didn't have to be the pillar of the family to everyone until Dalinar started getting visions.  Does anyone know when the first visions happened?  Dalinar didn't start reading The Way of Kings until Gavilar died, and the visions came later, so Adolin would have had a more normal childhood (or whatever the Alethi version of "normal" is) until then.  He would have been open to accepting Navani as a parental figure when he wasn't expected to be the strong one back then.  

Navani's loyalty is also a character trait of hers - even though Jasnah distanced herself and she knows that Elhokar is a weak king, she still supports them.  She didn't love Gavilar but she was faithful for their 25+ years of marriage.  She wouldn't throw Adolin over for Shallan, who may be a scholar and a Radiant, but has only been known to the Kholins for a few weeks.  If Navani decided Shallan was more worthy of emotional support and counsel than Adolin, that would be kind of annoying because that is reinforcing the perception that readers have of Shallan the Mary Sue who can't do anything wrong and is loved by everyone.  Seriously, everyone who disliked or underestimated Shallan at the beginning liked or respected her by the end, from Vathah and Sebarial to Mraize and Iyatil and Kaladin.  I know it's her magic power, but it's overpowered in a similar way as Kaladin's invincibility.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

I actually cringed when I read Burrich and Molly... I thought he was a bit old for her and I was surprised she'd settle with him, but then again, I read this story several years ago. I wanted her to choose Fitz, but Fitz was irresponsible and not capable of raising a family. She needed someone stable, strong, capable. Over time, they ended up making sense, but my initial reaction was slightly disbelieving. 

I was okay with Burrich and Molly because even though he was old, it was established from the start that he was capable of taking care of children.  He might not have been nice, but he was responsible and didn't shirk his responsibility and that is better than a blood parent is always off doing their own things instead of raising their children.  Molly ended up being happy with Burrich over time, which I do not think she would have had if she had settled down with Fitz.  The real cringe for me was Malta and Reyn Khuprus.  She was 15 and he was around 20.  In-universe Rain Wilders marry early because they have short life expectancies, but Malta wasn't a Rain Wilder, she was a Bingtown girl and a bratty child that everyone knew was a brat (everyone except Kyle) when he first started courting her.

I don't understand "schoolyard rivals fall in love" romances either.  I can suspend my disbelief if it happens very gradually over time, because people change and personalities that clash in the beginning won't be so opposed after character development and maturation kicks in, like what happened for Anne and Gilbert.  But when it happens too quickly?  I roll my eyes.  If Harry Potter had been Harriet Potter, she wouldn't have been attracted to Draco Malfoy because they formed an instant rivalry.  But in many other stories with similar characters, it ends up happening.  I think it's because when you have a main character male and a main character female, the audience pretty much expects for them to get together.  If the main characters are the same gender, people don't come in with the same expectations.  It's refreshing when an author can write a satisfying ending that doesn't involve pairing up an alpha couple and a beta couple (an example being Siri and Susebron with Vasher and Vivenna).

When I was a kid, I enjoyed Cornelia Funke's novel "Dragon Rider".  It is one of those cliche filled self-insert fantasies with your average plucky orphan who tames a dragon and saves the day.  Completely unappealing to adults, but it has most things that kids love.  Most of the animal-themed books I read as a kid were about farm animals or furry animals in the woods, and considered "classics" with that old-prose.  It might not be suitable for a child to read on their own until age 8 or so, unless you are reading them out loud so you can explain the big words and scary concepts.  Because many of those classic "boy and his dog" stories end up with the dog inevitably dying.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

In the case of the forced marriage idea, I was working under the assumption the necessity of Adolin marrying trumps all other considerations. It may also be Dalinar will not be patient with his forever and after the fiasco of Sadeas's death, he'll be less inclined to have his son marry "for love". He find the pressure to use his heir as a bargaining chip to secure must needed alliance hard to resist. This being said, the other girl would likely be one of those Adolin previously dated, so it'd be awkward, but with the right incentive, I think the Kholins could convinced at least one young woman to marry him. Of course this depends on how he is viewed after murdering Sadeas, nothing is ever certain. This certainly ranks among the unlikely story arc, but I have tried to run it in my head see how it'd go. The answer is: terrible. It traps Adolin into a situation he has no agency to improve and instead of having him grow into being able to develop a true lasting relationship, you basically have him despair into a fake one. All in all, a bad arc, a bad bad bad arc.

Any girl powerful enough to bring something valuable to a marriage alliance would have enough power to resist being forced into something she didn't want.  They all wanted Adolin to marry another highprince's daughter, but he alienated them all, so realistically the only type of girl that could be forced or pressured into an arrangement would be the daughter of a Kholin army officer, like Janala was.  I think Dalinar and Adolin are too honourable to do that to a subordinate officer.  In the end, it would make a terrible dead-end plot arc.  What narrative purpose could it serve?  How could it move the story along, or develop the characters in a significant way?  It would only make Adolin bitter and resentful.  I don't see it happening, because it something with needless soap opera overdramatics that slows the overall narrative and doesn't have the ability to redeem itself with a satisfying conclusion.  It would be like Kaladin's prison scene, but worse, since there's no evidence divorce exists, and Adolin has proven himself to be a loyal guy, even when it shoots him in the foot.  

You dislike overpowered protagonists, but my personal pet peeve is protagonists doing stupid things because the plot needs it.  Not everyone is stupid on the level of horror movies where drunk highschoolers decide to explore the local abandoned cemetary for a dare, but being deliberately obtuse counts as stupid in my book, and makes me want to throw things at the wall.  You hate that Kaladin saves everyone (or almost everyone; one minor character has to die so he can keep feeling guilty and moody) at the end of the day, and he is the fix-all for resolving major conflicts in the Sanderson Avalanche.  My dislike of Kaladin is how he can be so...nearsighted and obtuse.  He had all that evidence that Moash was up to no good, since Moash was on guard duty every time something bad happened, Moash tried to hook him up with a conspiracy...and he gave Moash yet another chance.  With his whole lighteyes prejudice thing, Kaladin never tried to understand the source of their power.

Quote

“A what of might and renown?” Kaladin asked.
Both looked at him, as if surprised to hear him speak. Keep forgetting I’m here, do you? Kaladin thought. You prefer to ignore darkeyes.
Chapter 55, "The Rules of the Game", Words of Radiance.

 

Quote

“It shouldn’t matter.”
“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”
Chapter 62, "The One Who Killed Promises", Words of Radiance

 

Quote

“Your father says I shouldn’t have tried to duel him.”
“Yeah,” Adolin said, reaching the door at the end of the hallway. “Dueling is formalized in a way I suspect you just don’t get. A darkeyes can’t challenge a man like Amaram, and you certainly shouldn’t have done it like you did. It embarrassed the king, like spitting on a gift he’d given you.”
Chapter 66, "Stormblessings", Words of Radiance

This is why I dislike Kaladin.  If he wanted to get back his old life which was stolen from him, or wanted to punish lighteyes for his mistreatment with some elaborate planned revenge, he could have gotten it all if he stayed quiet and observant and learned information which he could apply later on.  His stubborn and antagonistic behaviour did nothing to help his goals, whether they happened to be good or bad.

I have recently discovered a love for rational fantasy, which is a niche genre where main characters' actions are a result of informed decision making.  It pretty much means they do reasonable things for a good reason, and their reasoning is realistic.  Or as realistic as you get in a fantasy universe.  What you don't get is people doing stupid things like visiting the haunted cemetery on a dare, or Kaladin suddenly challenging Amaram to a duel, or Harry Potter forgetting that Sirius Black had given him a magic mirror until the end of the book.  In other words, the Idiot Ball doesn't exist.  I find that more satisfying than a so-human-it-hurts character from a Robin Hobb book, who does stupid things on a regular basis and gets plot-contrived bad luck dumped on them by the bucketful.

Whew, this was a rant.  But it's satisfying for me to read other books with sane characters who make reasonable decisions that follow a train of logic I can personally follow when I am annoyed at annoying characters in other series.  It might just be that Kaladin has the personality of a leader who does things, and I am more careful and organised, and that rubs me the wrong way.  Whatever it is, it's always good to take a break and enjoy Kaladin chapters in short doses.  And I personally don't dislike a protagonist saving the day over and over, as long as their powers, abilities and presence have been established earlier and it makes sense within the story.  If a character happened to save the day because he was coincidentally at the right place at the right time, over and over, that would be so contrived as to be questionable.  

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

Yes, Steris is a fun character and while she has no POV, it doesn't deter from her growth. She works with her disability instead of against it.

Renarin perhaps has hidden depth, but he is never seen playing them or using them. All we are told is he has an interest in fabrials. Alright. Fine. What does it mean for the main narrative? Nothing. All in all, he does not seem to do nothing but complain over his disease and that is not interesting unless you really are into his character and you love ah, I have to say it, the "trauma stick". Arguably Renarin is not using he kind of "trauma stick" I find interesting to read. He has yet to find his agency which I hope happens soon,

Huh.  What seems to be the problem is when a character is defined by one particular trait, such as a disability or Anne Shirley's red hair.  Everyone in Avonlea thought the new red-headed Nova Scotian girl was temperamental and over-emotional because of her red hair, and they only started to like her and accept her as part of the community after she proved she was more than that.  That is what characters like Steris and Renarin have to show - characterisation beyond that one little label.  Steris was the weird uptight sister at first, but she showed everyone she was capable of pulling her weight and keeping up with the magically powered characters.

Renarin hasn't done anything onscreen.  Admittedly, there are small things he has done like join Bridge Four or jump off a roof in Shardplate, but they still haven't shattered the in-universe and readership perception of being an invalid with an enabling family.  So until he can get a gradual buildup to a a grand event where he can save the day, Kaladin-style, to most people, he will be considered the disabled little brother.  

The problem stems from basically no screen-time, and no PoV.  He is not seen as involved in the decision-making process, and involved in determining the flow and direction of the overarching narrative as Dalinar and Kaladin are.  Because he is barely seen at all.  And that is why his characterisation suffers and he is like a cardboard cutout onto which readers that like and relate to him project their personal experiences and struggles with neuro-atypicality.  To everyone else, he's "that weird guy" or "the autistic brother" or "wait, who?".

I think I'm a bit biased.
I've been re-reading an old favourite of mine, "The Secret Garden".  There's one spoiled invalid kid who throws tantrums and only gets better after he is told to shut up and get out of bed.  It's the kind of old-fashioned no-nonsense tough love you'd approve of.  Of course, stories like this don't work in today's world, because people stopped believing that fresh air, exercise and spankings could cure anything in obnoxious children.

 

 

Art time

Stormlight gifs

 

Renarin test

If the eyes are the window to the soul, glasses are like curtains.  This is a rule of fiction, which is why a boring and plain girl in a highschool movie suddenly becomes beautiful when she gets her makeover and the glasses come off.  Seriously, glasses are really annoying.  They add another layer of complexity to a character design and detract from showing emotion.  Unless they are giant coke bottle glasses that don't cover up the eyes, like Milo's from Disney's Atlantis movie.

Renarin is kinda boring...I guess.  I couldn't think of any cool facial expressions for him to make.

 

Shallan test

Shallan is one of the easiest designs to animate because she is made up of round edges and it's harder to tell when they're crooked from frame to frame as straight lines are.  The rounded lines give her character design the appearance of youth and softness, which is shared by Renarin's design.  This is done on purpose because they are the two kid characters of the series.  

If Shalladin became canon, they would be an odd looking couple.  Shallan is super cute, and Kaladin is definitely not.

 

 

Vintage travel posters - SA Edition
A while ago, I once said I'd make an SA-themed vintage travel poster, so eventually I got around to them, and here they are.  If you don't know what they are, they are advertising material from the old days back when people didn't have computers and got their information from print media.  No flashing banner ads or pop ups, but brightly coloured stylised posters that sell an ideal to magazine readers.  Google "vintage travel posters" if you want to see more - they have a certain aesthetic that a lot of print ads had back then.  

The posters I made are homage mash-ups with inspiration from 1920's - 1960's era posters originally made by tourism boards and airline companies.

Visit Alethkar

The Outer Market, inspired by French Riviera posters.  Bright, colourful, stylised, and romantic is the aesthetic I tried to copy.  Here's a real poster from the 1930's with a similar look.

Inspiration

 

 

Discover Urithiru

Urithiru in the mountains.  The official description of Urithiru had 100 layers, but nobody's got time for that.  There are Oathgates in the front and back.  These types of posters tend to have a common design with a defined foreground, focus point/midground, and background and that is something I tried to retain when I sketched up this design.  This one was purposefully very "Art Deco", with lots of straight lines and a simplified central shape like old posters for big cities like New York or Chicago.  The muted colours come from older posters from an earlier period.

Inspiration

 

 

Not a travel poster, but a fashion plate illustration.

Alethi Lighteyed Style

 

Detail

I showed this to a friend who asked if it was a geisha and a Chinese pirate.  

I guess if ithis design appears vaguely Asian-ish to someone who is not Cosmere aware, then it's not too shabby.  Truthfully, the clothing I've been drawing on various characters is a mish-mash of IRL Earth cultures from all different historical periods and continents, with some fantasy elements thrown in for coolness value.  But I do try to follow the book description of sleek silk dresses for the women, and high collars and buttons up the sides on men's coats.  So far, the more traditional Vorin clothing has been more Asian-ish, with mandarin collars as the aforementioned high collars.  The modern military style that Dalinar prefers is more Western/European-inspired.  The two aesthetics mix and mash and sometimes clash as a quick way to tell who is frumpy, who is stylish, and who ignores fashion for reason of practicality or unit cohesion.

 

I might get one of these printed as a poster.  They look cool enough that even someone who hasn't read SA wouldn't think it's too weird.  If anyone else is wants to do this, I can send you the full-res versions.  They're around 2500x4500px and too big to post here.

 

Oh, and for the curious, my old art teacher wasn't a nice guy or an inspiration to children everywhere.  He was like a meaner, shoutier version of Mr Miyagi the karate teacher, and tried to force out by the power of attrition the bad habits of any student he thought showed promise.  He singled me out for being a "hairy liner", making those fuzzy looking sketchy lines instead of a single, continuous and confident stroke.  Tough old drill sergeants from military movies have the "drop and give me 20", my art teacher had the "you suck, draw 20 lines or however long it takes to get a straight freehand line with no fuzzy edges".   Apparently the road to self-improvement is built on an acute awareness of personal suckiness.  Well, journey before destination, as they say.

On 06/08/2016 at 3:01 AM, Argel said:

Your drawings are becoming my headcannon for the characters! Great stuff!!

EXACTLY AS PLANNED.  HAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHHH

The reason why I draw fan art is so I can share my headcanon/mental images of fictional characters.  I enjoy looking at other people's art because I like seeing how other people picture things, but nothing anyone else draws matches my mental visualisation quite like my own drawings.  

 

On 06/08/2016 at 6:13 AM, Rasarr said:

Love that Shattered Plains gif. Not quite sure what makes it so great, but I could stare at it for a long, long time. Shallan in the coat is just adorable, and Adolin is great as ever (your drawings have pretty much become my headcanon for him, too). 

Also, may I just note that I love the discussion you and maxal are having here? I've got nothing to add to them, but they're a delight to read.

Adolin to me has always been on the cute and boyish side of handsome rather than the smoking hot butt-chin stubbly Hollywood-style lead actor handsome.  I'm not the only one who thinks that, but it is probably a small minority.  A virgin who blushes a lot and is smitten at first sight of a cute girl can't be a movie star action hero hot in my mind.  My brain just can't compute.  I'm glad that Alethi have such weird appearances like dark skin, stripy hair, and light Asian-looking eyes because it makes movie casting almost impossible.  Then they will never cast actors that I will disappointed with, because they will never cast actors at all.

On a side note, I just can't wrap my head around fan drawings of Kaladin where he looks like a 35 year old grizzled chain-smoking detective, or ones where he looks like a sparkling anime prince.  In Roshar years or Earth-converted years, he's only 20/22, so he's not that old, but he's lived a tough life so he's not that pretty either.  And that's why I draw things.  Nothing else out there looked "right" to me, so I had to make my own.  My headcanon is really picky.

Hey, feel free to join the discussion if there's something you want to add!  I know we talk about all sorts of weird and random things, and complain all the time because we like complaining.  If you want to read discussions that aren't all various degrees of complaining about characters we don't like, or you want to complain too, jump in!!!

 

On 06/08/2016 at 0:51 PM, maxal said:

Thanks. The follow-up may take a while in the coming since I am currently not at home. I am currently leaving the beach to go show my kids around New-York : I thus very little time to write. So huh it may take a few days. 

The beach is more important than the Shard!  Have fun!!!
(Does saying this mean I just lost my Cosmere Fan privileges?)

 

On 07/08/2016 at 5:50 AM, CarolaDavar said:

You are amazing! I love Adolin's Facebook page! It's the best

Thanks!  I like doing something different now and then, like cosplay or watercolour or animation.  It adds some variety because I would get tired of doing the same thing for 6 pages of thread, and I think people would get tired of seeing the same thing.

 

On 07/08/2016 at 3:29 PM, Argel said:

What!?! Family over the 17th Shard and Brandon's writing?!?! Heretic!!  Blasphemer!!   

@sheep, we need a "Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin visit the beach" scene!  

This is a funny story - I actually asked some other Cosmere fanartists if they were interested in collaborating in a "Cosmere Swimsuit Calendar" project, where each artist does one month with a Cosmere character of their choice.  I got a lukewarm response, because this concept had already been done before with a Cosmere pinup calendar.  (NOTE: it is a pinup calendar, don't expect anything different)

I had a few swimsuit sketches lying around so I combined them and threw in a beach background, if you scroll down to the bottom.

 

On 07/08/2016 at 10:31 PM, Doctor12 said:

This page is for all art, right? Not just @sheep's art? If I am, sorry for intruding! 

You can post your art here!

It's better to use this thread instead of cluttering up the forum with multiple threads, and it makes it easier to find art if it's all in one place.  If you want to post multiple pictures, put them in one post and spoiler them, or else we would have to scroll for days to reach the bottom post.  If you read 17th Shard on mobile, it gets super annoying.

 

On 10/08/2016 at 5:45 AM, Argent said:

I am going to have to revisit this thread, there is a scary amount of research and new content since the last time I checked it out...

When did you last look at this thread?  
I try to update with new art pieces approximately once a week, and totally didn't intend for it to be scary.  If you look closely, it's more silly than scary.

 

On 10/08/2016 at 6:50 AM, Chull #445 said:

Awesome drawings! Loved the Mraize from a while back!

Thanks!  It's always a bit of a fun challenge to tackle the minor characters.  I always end up using more imagination when there's not much canon to build off.

 

 

 

 

On 31/07/2016 at 6:05 AM, Argel said:

Finally, Sebarial!!  Slight edge to the B&W Adolin/Jakomav. Good stuff as always!!

It took me awhile but I figured out why the B&W was better.  The colouring removed the contrast on the Shardplate back plates so the detail was harder to see.  It made it too murky for what was supposed to be a centre of focus, for where the viewer's eye was meant to glance at first when "reading" a picture left to right.  The B&W looks cleaner in comparison, and easier to "read".

I hope Sebarial is pretty close to what you had in your head.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 7:18 AM, Rasarr said:

I'd say b&w version of Adolin/Jamakav is better; seems to fit the mood of the scene better, the colourful one is too... cheerful. Also, Adolin's facebook page cracked me up. 

I filled in the info box with Adolin's information, for those who noticed.  There is a section for where a real facebook page would list your school or university, but Adolin didn't go to school.  I'm still not sure how he even made a Facebook page since he can't read and relies on an ardent to send text messages/spanreed to Shallan.

The answer to that is not to think too deeply.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 10:38 AM, skeene1 said:

@sheep I really enjoy all your artwork. You've done a really great job at capturing the characters of the Stormlight Archive. 

Thanks!  I'm a very visual person so I think a lot about the imagery when I read books.  I also do cosplay now and then and it has gotten me into the habit of being obsessive about the details.

 

 

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

No author expects it, but a good author will try to give life to every character, even the minor ones as of those feels like cardboard and vessels for one characteristic, the the world-building ends up feeling flatter. Too many authors disregard the importance of crafting good characters, instead insisting on focusing solely on plot advancement and world-building artifacts. A good author certainly do not expect his readers to like every single characters, but they'd rather you felt something for them even if it is a negative emotion. The worst would be being indifferent and/or not care about the characters: it then shows the author has failed to convey the proper emotions to the readers.

Most authors are aware of readers' reactions, or they try to be.  That's what alpha and beta readers are for, which is the same thing that visual media (tv/movies) or advertising do when they work with focus groups.  The thing about writers is that because they are the sole creative force behind a work, their "blockbuster" level can protect them from publishers and editors wanting to change part of the work that isn't the spelling/grammar proofreading stuff.  Which can be a good thing, since media created by a committee bent on hitting the demographics can be really terrible or just really generic (examples being an unnecessary movie franchise reboot, or idol singer music group).  An author's creative freedom and licence to ignore the advice or wishes of their audience and publisher can be a good thing too, because otherwise it would lead down the dark path of plot armoured characters that lose all dramatic tension, or annoying characters that end up being hated.  Brandon has alpha and beta readers, and he takes their advice sometimes, and sometimes he doesn't - the WoR love triangle subplot was something that the beta readers reacted to in a predictable fashion (because SA wasn't intended to be YA, but somehow a distinctive YA trope fell into it), and we got the Kashadolin setup .  So I think that Brandon is aware that Adolin has fans, even if you don't think he knows it.  He's just too active and communicative with fans and readers not to know, and for someone who plans so far ahead, he won't have forgotten Adolin.

If you end up getting bored of SA before Oathbringer's release, or think Oathbringer is a terrible book because it barely mentions Adolin, that would be a shame.  But it doesn't mean that Brandon thinks Adolin is boring, or thinks readers think that Adolin is boring.  It may be that Adolin's spotlight time isn't just at that moment, and if he were to pander to the audience and include gratuitous audience, it could slow the rest of the story's pacing or make the Sanderlanche less satisfying.  If you look at the statistics here Adolin has had way too much screen time to be a minor character rather than supporting character.  He may not get as much screen time as he has been getting in every book, but in the end the wordcounts will add up to make him a character with more PoV's than a named flashback character.  Being a named flashback character doesn't guarantee anything, since they are confirmed to be possibly be dead by the time their book rolls around, or even that they will have the highest wordcount in their own book.  Kaladin had more pagetime than Shallan and her flashbacks in WoR

Awww, you hate Tyn and Jakamav?   But neither of them are really evil.  If they are "bad" people, it is only because the choices they make are the selfish ones that fit within their culture's definition of morality.  If the plot decides they are to be the antagonists because of this, I don't think it makes them worthy of hate, since they are interesting.  They are either unaware that they are being selfish and callous because they rationalise it as the "right" behaviour, or they know it and go ahead with their dastardly plans because they don't care.  That's what I really like in an antagonist that I don't see very often - the moustache twirling villain who ties a girl to the train tracks, and knows it's bad, but still doesn't go as far as killing puppies for fun.  I like Tyn because she is like an outside viewer of Vorin restrictive prudishness, and because she wasn't indoctrinated with it from birth, she observes the rules because she feels like it.  It makes a contrast to Jasnah, the princess who breaks the rules because she can get away with it.  And Jakamav is to Adolin what Sadeas was to Dalinar, or what Moash was to Kaladin.  If the Shardplate that Teleb wore in the Battle of Narak was Jakamav's, he will be mad at Adolin forever and ever, since that suit of Plate was lost in the chasms with the Everstorm.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

I think Dalinar father to son interactions with his eldest son are very complicated and much of it is based on perception, demands, responsibility, duty and orders and not enough is based on real trust and respect. Had Dalinar truly respected Adolin, as the majority of the readers seem to think, then he wouldn't have ask perfect obedience out of him. You don't ask obedience out of someone you trust, enforcing your own ideas on them, you let them free to take their own decisions because you trust they will make the right one. Dalinar doesn't trust Adolin will choose the right path, therefore he forces him into the one he thinks is the only right one. This simply isn't trust, it is fear his own son may still grow into the ghost of the Blackthorn.

I will thus say yet another very unpopular comment: Dalinar does not trust Adolin as much as he should, nor does he respects his son's identity, preferring to enforce those he sees as more suitable,

Dalinar lives his life teetering on a knife's edge, scared that he will fall into barbarism if he relaxes his standards by one little bit.  It's how he lived ever since he was reformed, and such a big part of his life that the idea that other people don't live by balancing their good and bad sides must be a strange and alien idea.  But he's not totally wrong, since Adolin experiences the same extremes of emotion that get amplified whn he gets stressed, and Kaladin gets his mood swings when he blames himself or it's raining outside.  The most conflict-making part of parental relationships in fiction (and life in general) really comes down to misguided good intentions being justified by "it was for your own good".  And a conflict resolution comes from both parties acknowledging that and moving on.

Hey, don't let an opinion being unpopular stop you from saying what you think.  Why should you let anyone's approval or disapproval stop you from enjoying yourself and expressing your opinion?  I think that is one of the reasons why you like and connect with Adolin so much, and why I like Tyn.  

Were there any regular knights in regular metal armour on the Shattered Plains?  I don't remember reading about about any lighteyed units in Kaladin's PoV chapters, other than the cavalry and archers.  In the border skirmishes, there were regular knights because they were only fighting against humans, with no Shardbearers because all of them would be making real money on the Plains.  On the Shattered Plains, the enemies were warform Parshendi, stronger than humans (they leap chasms instead of using bridges or chull drawbridges) who carry war axes and war hammers as their weapons because they specifically want to counter Shardbearers.  A regular knight wouldn't have a chance unless he is part of a heavy mounted cavalry unit - a metal plated knight's advantage is armour and momentum for quick flanking charges.  Without the height and speed a horse gives, a metal knight would have all the disadvantages of Plate (the portable sauna) with none of the advantage.  I enjoy military strategy games and military speculative fiction, and I think about these things, even if they're not very interesting to character readers.

If Adolin is aware of this, if he has trained with other units like the spearmen he bunked with for a couple of months, I hope he is sensible enough to realise that jumping in the front lines unprepared is very stupid.  Adolin is self-sacrificing when it involves defending the people he loves, but there comes a point where one realises that they're not being very helpful when they're dead.  He's a capable commander, while still having his flaws, or he wouldn't be one of the top Kholin Army officers.  He values the lives of all his men, because the lives of men are priceless, so why should he value his own life any less?  Anyone who doesn't arrive to that conclusion is neck-deep in angst and is close to the sort of eye-rolling drama that involves brooding vampires and the Volturi.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

am just trying to tie in all ends. Adolin may have responded positively to Navani's attentions and Dalinar may have stated she could get away with a lot with him, even stating how his son had the tendency to behave like a child again (which I have always thought was quite sad... even at 23, Adolin misses his mother ) whenever she was around, he still has never broached her for counsels. Adolin is shy, I think he may be shy with just about everyone. While it may happen, there is no telling is it will, not based on the reading we have had so far.

The reason why I think Navani could be a good parental figure for Adolin was because in the beginning of WoK, Adolin thought Dalinar was going crazy and all of their "allies" were distancing themselves from the Kholins because they all thought he was going weak.  Navani was one of the few people that Adolin and eventually Dalinar could trust, and later on fully confide in.  Adolin trusted her from the start, when Dalinar was giving her the cold shoulder, and was willing to discuss what to do with Dalinar and the abdication.  Normally Adolin doesn't talk about this stuff because he wants to look confident in front of other people, but Navani knew.  The only other people he has trusted enough to tell them the truth about his weaknesses and vulnerabilities was Kaladin (the girl advice) and Shallan (the first date).  When they are busy doing Radiant things, Navani will be the only non-Radiant he can trust.  Navani's character quirk is that she perceives her own value as a person based on how much other people need her.  Without it, she feels useless.  She's not a queen or a wife anymore, and her children have outgrown her so she doesn't feel like a mother.  Even Renarin has better things to do these days.  Adolin (and Elhokar if he stays normal) is the person in the best position to connect with her.  It would be heart-warming if it happened, and if they also happened to discuss Shshshsh, it would tie in nicely with Dalinar's flashbacks.

I think my cringe from reading certain romance plotlines comes from their being badly written and not really representative of a healthy relationship between two emotionally stable and mature adults.  When I was younger, I was perfectly happy to read the really shallow stories where the main character gushes over how the hottest guy in school looked in her direction.  And when I got older, I realised that you can't build a long-term relationship off "omg he's so hotttt" and any plot-contrived relationship drama that can be solved by people sitting down and having a talk, or a phone call or text message, is just stupid and unrealistic.  It's not necessarily the age gap between characters that makes me dislike a novel, but rather how unrealistic or poorly written it is.  Molly and Burrich had something like a 15 year age difference, but I didn't get a cringe reaction from that.  I would say my current "pickiness" comes down to being aware of what exactly ticks my boxes now that I've read enough to tell apart the good from the bad.  Even nostalgia isn't enough to make the terrible novels I read as a teen enjoyable.

There are always classic children's books if you dislike stories by modern authors.  The ones about animals are always appealing to both girls and boys (I don't know if 6 year olds have gotten into the stage where they think the opposite gender has the COOTIES!!!).  Doctor Dolittle, Charlotte's Web, Lassie Come-Home, King of the Wind, or Redwall, for example.  They might be extremely tropey and full of predictable characters (and sometimes literal underdogs), but kids don't care about that and they were written 30+ years ago so the prose is better than what many modern children's or YA authors use these days.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

I suspect the pressure to produce a heir may force Adolin to compromise on his future wife... I had a weird premonition recently the "Alethi wedding" Brandon told us he would write in the first arc won't be Adolin/Shallan or Navani/Dalinar, but Adolin/XYZ woman and it won't be a happy one. With everyone around him becoming Radiants, with Shallan most likely breaking it up with him, I think it may be the Kholins will decide they need to marry Adolin ASAP with the first available young lady. 

Hence Adolin will get stuck into a loveless marriage. Quite sad. 

You forget that a marriage involves two people.  Adolin might be pressured into a marriage, but even though Alethkar might be prudish with values different to modern Earth, any girl with a rank in the upper dahns high enough to be considered a potential wife would not be forced to marry against her will.  All of those girls that courted him would have married him if they were forced to do it, because he is the heir to a Highprince, but they chose to dump him because he did something they didn't like or disapproved of, and since he's not really a bad guy, they were all insignificant things easily overlooked by a real gold digger.  The only woman who could be forced into marriage would be someone low ranking and without connections, like Laral, but why would Adolin marry someone who would give no advantage when he doesn't even love her?  Even Shallan had the connection to Jasnah to her benefit.  I see Adolin as more likely to die alone than choose a loveless marriage.  Certainly it is not something that Dalinar or Navani would force on him, since they would have the experience to understand how unhappy an unhappy marriage can be.

I personally like reading unorthodox protagonists because they tend to be less predictable and therefore more interesting than the plain vanilla heroic underdog.  Not that I dislike heroic underdogs who start from nothing and work their way up, as long as they have depth that is more than "I do good things because it's the right thing to do".  But someone who breaks the mould and is a sympathetic protagonist who is shown as sympathetic because they do things other than rescuing cats from trees and dogs from wells is interesting in this age where the fantasy genre is simply flooded with generic everyman sword-swinging dragon slayers.  Kaladin as a struggling bridgeman was interesting, because he was inventive and it reminded me of Ender figuring out how to win the battles in battle school when the odds were stacked against him.  Kaladin as an overpowered Radiant with chronic hero syndrome is less interesting - but at least that is more interesting than the Kaladin (Merrin lol ) who took Helaran's Shards and became a Shardbearer.

I think many more people would dislike Shallan if she had no flashbacks.  Without it, she's dangerously close to a Mary Sue dream girl whose only visible flaw is her sense of humour (to those who think she tries to hard to make unfunny fart jokes funny).  Her past makes her more complex and justifies some questionable decisions, and since I like pragmatic heroines who are willing to do illegal or bad things because they are the right thing to do, Shallan's magical amnesia preventing her from accepting her past actions makes me disappointed.  Not only is it hurting herself and Pattern, her mental denial response to prevent accidental triggering is stopping her from moving on and being a total butt kicker of a character and doing interesting things.   If Wax had the same habit and he'd moved on from Lessie too quickly, it would have made his move to Elendel less significant, and his developing relationship with Steris less meaningful.  Adolin is already likeable as a character, and in the narrative sense he doesn't NEED a flashback for readers to understand his motivations.  All the justifications for his actions in the story so far have been the result of things that have happened in the last few months, with Dalinar's visions going public.  If he survives the first half of SA, I'd be more interested in seeing a more mature and level-headed future Adolin.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

In the case of Renarin, I like to put two similar characters within two different series, one I love (Steris) and one I find slightly boring (Renarin) in order to illustrates what works for me, as a reader and what does not work. Both characters have similar issue: both are autistic and both struggle because of it. 

I absolutely loved Steris when I read SoS and BoM: she was a pleasant surprise I did not expect to find. I find her an intriguing, complex character and there is more to her than meets the eye. The same could be said about Renarin, but the problem lies elsewhere.

That's the difference between characters who are revealed to have hidden depths previously unknown to the audience.  In the case of Steris, her disability doesn't stop her from making herself useful in unexpected ways, exploring her skills and showing what she is capable of to the reader.  Steris is organised and meticulous and plans obsessively, and it's shown to the reader first as a character quirk, and later in a humourous way when they are at the hotel, and then even later it pays off in a satisfying way.  

In comparison, what exactly are Renarin's hidden depths, his secret skills?  (Disregarding his Radiant surges since we don't even know his oath leve.)  Previously he was known to be a quiet but careful thinker, he likes wine, can read and write glyphs, and is interested in fabrial science.  Most of this is mentioned in one or two lines, or inferred by the reader and not outright stated.  And of this, how much of it has been used as a plot point or Chekhov's gun?  The answer is very little, and of that, the glyphs scratched on the walls wasn't entirely voluntary and was attributed to Dalinar the whole time.  That's why Renarin comes off as boring and passive.  His skills are never demonstrated on-screen as Steris's are, and his ridiculously high pain tolerance when he summons and holds his dead Shardblade is only inferred by the reader because Renarin has no PoV chapters.  And it is not exactly an example of being pro-active since he just accepted it as a normal part of being a Shardbearer and called himself a coward for not being able to do anything but stand there and hold it (see that conversation with Adolin right after Jakamav unfriends him).  

Honestly, most of this comes from Renarin just being in the background all the time as a minor character rather than the supporting cast.  If more of his identity, personality, and skills were explored, I'm sure he would be a more sympathetic character rather than a pathetic one.  He has done very little, and because of that, he has very little to redeem himself in your eyes, since you do not automatically think him an endearing character because of his disabilities.  Which is a reasonable response, because to me, a character's likeability should stand on the strength of their characterisation.  After all, you aren't automatically obliged to like every female protagonist you read just because you are female yourself.  

If you dislike the idea of Renarin being a focus character, remember that being a focus character doesn't mean he will get the most screen time.  If Kaladin survives past SA#5, I would not be surprised if he is still the spotlight stealing, one-liner spouting underdog hero we all know and love.

 

 

Art time

Stormlight Gifs
EDIT:  Apparently uploading gifs don't work in the same way static images do.

 

 

 

The Weeping  

 

 

Adolin test

This came out unintentionally creepy.  It wasn't supposed to, I swear!  If you ever watch kids' cartoons and get annoyed at long drawn out scenes where nothing moves but some mouth flapping, the reason is that animation is extremely effort intensive.

 

 

Jasnah test

Imagine you met Jasnah and tried to break the ice with a joke.  That is her reaction.  My costume designs are relatively simple compared to the elaborate havah designs by other fan artists, but there's a good reason for that.  If you ever draw the same character over and over again, you will soon wish that you hadn't made their clothing so fancy.  Same with the hair.  One of Jasnah's hairdos described in WoK had 6 hairspikes with golden chains strung between them.  I only use a two spike design because it's much easier to figure out placement - notice how they chance position when she turns her head.

 

 

 

Kaladin test

Kaladin has only two facial expressions.  :-|  and >:-(
Notice how jerky this animation is?  It's because I set it approximately 6 frames per second, where a movie animation goes at the rate your eye can see, which is 24 frames per second.  That is what makes a cartoon movie look so smooth - the transition from frame to frame is so gradual that your eyes make it out to be one continous movement.  But obviously it requires creating 24 slightly different frames.

On Roshar, a traumatic experience is enough to crack your soul for a Nahel bond.  On Earth, hand-drawn animation does the same thing.  Traditional animation using cels is enough to destroy it.  These days, modern animation for TV cartoons is efficient enough that a production studio designs the characters and draws the key frames (usually the first and last frames) and sends them overseas where other people do all the tedious transition frames between Kaladin's first :-| and his last >:-(.

 

 

Kholin Army Shallan

Because Shallan likes to steal other people's clothes.  
I think in past drawings I've established that Shallan is small compared to Adolin and Kaladin, since she has mentioned how big Alethi guys are, but other than freaks of nature like Kaladin and Rock, there have been no real numbers on the height of regular Alethis.  Whatever the actual numbers are, Shallan wearing an officer's coat would look pretty funny.  And it wouldn't be too inappropriate because the sleeve would be long enough to cover up her safehand.  

 

 

 

Kholin Army Adolin

Shardplate Adolin because I like Shardplate and I want to get better at drawing it.  No matter how many times I draw it, I still absolutely hate drawing the visor.  The visor slits aren't perfectly straight shallow "V" shapes, but kind of crooked at the end, which is super annoying.  But I stay true to the canon depiction where there are canon depictions, so I do it anyway.  

The background was supposed to make the Kholin blue "pop" but it really does nothing for Shallan's hair...

On 24/07/2016 at 2:57 AM, Rasarr said:

Storms, Sadeas' smile when he gloats over Oathbringer is creepy as hell  Likewise Wit leaning over Renarin. Brrrr.

On another note, I believe I am starting to get repetitive in my praise for your work, so let me just note that your Gaz design is pretty much the same as how I imagined it. 

Sadeas has lusted over owning a Shardblade of his own for decades, and he's salty that Adolin in his first appearance in WoK had a Blade and he didn't.  So the fact that Sadeas managed to get a blade, and the blade he got was Dalinar's legendary Oathbringer, which makes it double priceless.  It's enough that he will sell the Bridgemen to Dalinar, which was a sore point to him, because he wanted to make honourable Dalinar look bad in front of his men.  Just imagine that in private he summons the Blade over and over in his bedroom, and whispers "MY PRECIOUS" to it.  

Wit is like thousands of years old.  I, and other Shard artists (I think it's better to use the portmanteau "Shardists" over "Shartists") interpret the description of him to be ambiguously 30-something, in the way that Wayne is a generically faced 30-something.  He may look on the skinny end of normal when you talk to him, but when you look him in the eye, there's some indication that he's seen some things.  I think that's where unintentional (or not) creepy face comes from, when people try to draw that.

 

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I think you can differentiate a good story from a very good story by the strength of its secondary/minor characters. The best example of this I can actually come up with would be the Codex Alera which I recently read. While the story has undeniable qualities and it certainly is entertaining enough, it relies on a boring main protagonist bordering on perfection whom is surrounded by secondary main protagonists whom tend to be more interesting than him. It gets worst when you move onto the supporting cast as if these showed promises early on, it was never capitalized on and the story turned them into nothing more than lackeys having little agency of their own. The story thus felt unsatisfying, to me, because it lacked the depth other stories have, such as WoT which, despite its flaws, was certainly capable of reigning in a wide cast of interesting ans diverse characters: not many felt like lackeys.

Therefore, the mere fact SA has produced an interesting array of minor characters reader love to speculate/talk about de facto ranks it among the greatest. I do not like Wit nor Elhokar.

No author expects to make you like every single one of his or her characters.  It's just a fact of life that you will end up being ambivalent toward some of them, just like you can't be friends with every single person you meet.

I am doing this character design series of minor characters because they are like the acquaintances of the literary world, where the hero protagonists are the best friends 4 lyfe.  They are the kind of characters who are equivalent to people you pass on the street and don't think much about when they're gone.  And I think it's a bit more of a challenge when you only have a very vague idea of what they're like.  But still there is enough for me to be able to form an opinion on them and their personality, so Brandon has that going for him.

My favourite minor characters are probably Tyn and Jakamav.  I am aware that they are both not very nice people that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with if they were real people, but that makes them interesting.  It's the difference between characters in the soap opera genre versus slice of life.  I don't watch them because I see myself in them.  I just want to eat popcorn and laugh because Tyn is the SA version of a "bad role model big sister" and Jakamav is the head cheerleader.  Terrible people, but engaging drama - picturing them doing things and interacting with others is easy, so drawing them becomes easy.  People like Renarin are the boring ones.  

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I have a hard time considering Adolin's training, before the age of 16, as true military training. He was taught how to fight with a sword, but no way is it a substitute for real experience. There is only so much a 6 years old kid can assimilate. His "real training" probably didn't start until he hit puberty and was physically tall enough and strong enough to do it.  Also, at 16 years old, Adolin was not yet fully grown: nobody would think to oppose someone that age against a grown adult. Besides, there is a reason why modern days make the distinction in between the "junior category" and the "adult" one. Sure, there are kids which can compete with grown ups, but they typically aren't in fighting related discipline where age would make a difference, they tend to be in disciplines where growth would impact your performance such as gymnastic. It is a no brainer Adolin, at that age, no matter how talented, would have been at a disadvantage in any duels against a higher profile more experienced duelist. 

I got the impression that if you bribed the judge very very generously, you could get a retraction on the witness statement and cancel a duel that way - without an official witness, a challenge would just be a matter of "he said, she said". Of course, the judge would have a bad reputation forever after, and it's pretty dishonourable by Alethi standards, but it would prevent someone wholly unprepared from being crippled in the duelling arena.  Being branded a coward is better when you're a Shardbearing coward.

Quote

“Yes or no?”
“Two days,” Relis snapped. “Here in the arena.” He looked to the highjudge. “You witness this?”
“I do,” she said.
Chapter 53, "Perfection", Words of Radiance

Dalinar makes Shardbearer duelling out to be way more dangerous than it actually is.  Is he just being very inflexible or very overprotective, in his regular Dalinar way?

Quote

According to the Codes, most duels should be avoided when Alethkar was at war. There was a fine line between sparring for practice and dueling another man for an insult, potentially leaving important officers wounded.
The winner would be the first one who completely shattered a section of the other’s Plate. That wasn’t too dangerous; weakened Plate could usually still rebuff a blow, even if it shattered in the process.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings

The way arena duels are fought is very civilised and no one fights to cripple unless they agree on the terms beforehand.  And since the way Shardbearing is taught emphasises control and knowing one's strength from day one, there would be little chance of a Shardbearer accidentally crippling another.  If it happens, it would be on purpose.  To me, it seems like a spectator would be more likely to be hurt in a duel than a Shardbearer, since shattering Shardplate looks like an explosion of ripping metal.

Dalinar could have just banned duelling for Shards the way it was banned for Jakamav, and also bans on duels where the winning condition isn't breaking X amount of Plate sections.  Duelling until forfeit (the way the 4-on-1 duel was fought) is serious.  Everything else is pretty tame.  But Dalinar.  "Unreasonable" is his middle name.

According to the Codes, duels should be avoided in times of war.  When Adolin was 16, Dalinar was still Blackthorn, and he didn't care about the Codes, and they weren't at war.  So he wouldn't have had the moral dilemma about duelling back then, and he doesn't dote on Adolin (as of WoK/WoR) like he worries over Renarin's wellbeing, so any qualms (if he had any) about Adolin duelling as a kid would be based on the risk of losing Shards more than anything else.  Harsh, right?

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

How does one get forced to learn how to fight without Shards? Easy enough. Once every few years, there is a duel for Shards. Therefore, once every few years, someone loses his Shards to someone else. As a result, once every few years, there is one former Shardbearer which has to learn how to fight without them. It is a rare event, granted, but it has happened often enough for someone to comment on how hard it was. Shardplates are a huge advantage as they allow you strength, speed, protection without the inconvenient of a standard armor. I once read an article on how wearing an armor would seriously deflate your aerobic capacity because the weight on it prevents the blood from flowing right. It said the leg armors was a killer for this and any knight was in danger of dehydration and exhaustion whenever wearing one because the blood couldn't move back from the legs to the heart properly. Someone like Adolin, who never wore a regular armor, could probably not think about that and go on as he has always done only to run out of juice before the end. I have always thought book 3 was geared for Adolin to actually lose his Shards which would be a neat arc: seeing him trying to adapt would be interesting, but adapting to not take a bath for a week? Gee. You are asking for a lot, maybe if he gets thrown into jail for real it'll happen.

Without Shardplate, a Shardbearer instantly gets demoted to an infantryman.  And since standard Alethi infantry wields spears because most of them are darkeyes and can't use swords, that's a pretty big demotion.  I would have thought that anyone who loses their Shards would retire from battle, or at least change their tactical approach so that they don't actually have to unlearn anything.  Cavalry and archery is open to lighteyed men, or they could just be a behind-the-lines commander rather than in the front line.  Unlearning anything is difficult, especially if you're a 30 year old seasoned veteran, and having Shardbearer training drilled into you when you have no Shards is more of a liability than a benefit.  I could see Adolin without Shards assigned to being a tactical commander than a front-liner, just as he could be a good Highprince or King if it came down to it.  Perhaps it makes for a boring plot, but they are worthy positions that suit his abilities more than an Ardent or a citylord suit Renarin.  

Adolin is one of Navani's baby chickens too, for longer than Shallan.  She has been motherly to him and Renarin since WoK, when Dalinar was still giving her the cold shoulder.  I think you are seeing too much on the negative side than what is likely to happen.  Sure, going in with low or negative expectations means you tend to come out with less disappointments, but it really is a depressing way to look at things.  For instance, Shallan with her involvement with Mraize and the whole Ghostbloods sideplot is going to be keeping secrets, and off doing things on her own wihtout supervision or wanting people looking over her shoulders - not even her brothers, when they reunite for the first time in almost a year.  Navani, though she's probably not the one with the greatest relationship advice, has more experience in these things than anyone else that Adolin is comfortable talking to.  With Kaladin out of the picture, and Renarin busy exploring his Radiant powers, Bridge Four might be more of a support system to Adolin than to anyone else.  They are Kaladin's men, but Kaladin went away to Hearthstone/Kholinar, and Kaladin always kept himself distant from most of the bridgement apart from the named lieutenants like Rock, Sigzil, Teft and Moash.  Adolin since the beginning of WoR has shown some relationship progression with them.  I could see it developing further.

Quote

Those two insufferable bridgemen followed along behind him. Not that Adolin minded the men personally—they seemed like amiable enough fellows, particularly when away from their commander. Adolin just didn’t like needing minders.
Chapter 50, "Uncut Gems", Words of Radiance

Adolin was annoyed by them and their eavesdropping on his dates but he ended up appreciating and valuing them by the end.  He probably wouldn't bond with them like a chasm scene would do, but they are people who understand what it's like to be the sidekick to the hero, without superpowers but still doing the best they can.  

I actually went back to Anne of Green Gables (and you can read it online for free because the copyright has expired, btw) and after reading it, I have come to the conclusion that if Anne was an SA character, she would be a Lightweaver.  She brings so much happiness to Avonlea with the power of imagination.  The Radiant order is so perfectly fitting for her.  Regarding the age gap, my most recent cringe was reading a romance novel where the main character, when she was 8 years old, loudly declared that she would marry a boy whom she was crushing on (he was 17)  when she was grown up.  And they get engaged when she is 18 and he is 27.  I love childhood crushes becoming romance, don't get me wrong, but this was a bit much for me.  Honestly, anyone I liked when I was under 15 years old I now realise would be horribly unsuited to my preferences today.  And that is why YA romances appeal to me less and less as the years go by.  Most of them would appeal to 15-year-old me, but now they make me roll my eyes.  (Gosh I really love this smiley)

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I do think Kaladin was a poor soldier, good on the field, but terrible at following commands and having priorities which may clash with the army priorities. We see it when he was a squad leader. He thought his worth as a squad leader was directly linked to his ability to keep his men alive and he wondered why he wasn't send to the Shattered Plains... I think part of the reason may have been that while Kaladin had a good track record when it comes to casualties, he perhaps had a terrible one when it comes to meeting the objective of the fight. By devising his own strategies, he may have positions his squad in a non-standard position which perhaps caused all kinds of trouble. He certainly is more suited to the bodyguard job where he has no one to answer to except himself. It isn't such a bad thing, but it is obvious Kaladin doesn't do well in any position where he would be asked to take orders. I do not know what it would take for Kaladin to stop seeing himself as a victim and to stop thinking his own hardships gives him the right to look down on other people for failing at not having suffered enough for him to consider them worthy human beings. There is something troubling in Kaladin only being able to like Shallan after finding out she has suffered enough for him to feel sympathy......................

Jamie's rank was uncertain with his uncles being leaders of the Clan Mackenzie.  It was more convenient for him to not do anything which might produce an heir and put the succession into question.  Whereas for Adolin, it would be very useful if he were to produce an heir as soon as possible when people don't think Dalinar will live past book 5.

Kaladin makes a good squadleader when there are few enough men for him to know each one personally, enough to know their strengths and weaknesses and tailor the squad's tactics to fit that.  He would make for a terrible commander or general, because he wants to protect people so much.  That is what makes him different from Ender Wiggin (though no one who is not Mazer Rackham can be anything like Ender).  Ender's lesson that he learned is that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to fulfill the winning conditions, and that goes against the whole "journey before destination" thing - which is idealistic, but sometimes not realistic.  Good thing not everyone becomes a Radiant, right?  Protecting people and saving lives is what Kaladin does, and that is enough to make him disobey the orders, which throws the whole big-picture plan down the toilet.  It's well-meaning, but nearsighted, and he is just too pure and morally white for a world where things are fifty shades of grey.  And that is why people love Kaladin, because you know he's unambiguously good, but I personally like the more pragmatic characters.  Their internal conflicts, if they question their morality, is so much more interesting.

Ugh, Kaladin and his "suffering is a contest and don't bother competing because I win" attitude is as off-putting in the same way that you don't like Renarin's moping about.  If Kaladin meets Laral in Hearthstone in SA3, and he is mean to her because she's a lighteyes and lighteyes do not know the meaning of adversity, I will be extremely disappointed.  

For someone who is more of a character reader than a world-building or magic system reader, I am strangely neutral to the main characters than most.  I don't really like most of them, nor do I hate them, I just think of them as tools in the plot and they have to be very interesting to catch my attention.  None of the main "flashback" characters of the first 5 books make me super immersed; for me it is the character interactions rather than the character personalities that make me want to keep reading.  I'm probably weird that way.  I just care more about what they do than who they are.  Character development is great and all, but how does that affect the action and the overall plot arc?  Malta Vestrit's becoming less self-centred led to dragons returning to the world.  I want to see what cool things other characters are capable of.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I still cannot understand why someone who is so poor at athletic could potentially enjoy in training to be a soldier... If anything, WoR made it obvious the reasons Renarin isn't a soldier isn't solely tied to his handicap: he simply isn't good at physical activity. He seems uncoordinated and Kaladin remarks how Moash got better with his Plate after a few days than Renarin after weeks. There is a fair chance, even without his handicap, Renarin would have failed at being a good soldier, simply because he is just not good at those things, in the same way Adolin is terrible at understanding abstract concepts. Typically, people don't enjoy devoting themselves to activities they aren't minimally good at.

I think we feel similar things about Renarin.  I don't dislike him, but like you, I just don't feel empathy with him or his situation.  I don't go out of my way to force myself to feel empathy for him, nor do I feel regret or disappointment that I do not like him as much as some other people do.  Sure, it sucks to be disabled in a family where no one else has the same disability, and be in a society where it's stigmatised in terms of social interaction and relgious dogma to be anything other than perfectly fit and ready to defend Heaven from Voidbringer demons.  But I find Renarin ... boring.  To me, he is one of the hardest characters to picture and draw because in my head, I can't easily frame an image in my mind of him doing things.  Because he doesn't do many things.  He is a passive character, instead of active.  He fades into the background.  He is mentioned in one or two lines to establish his presence in a scene by a PoV character, and then completely forgotten.  That might be some magical Illumination surgebinding going on, or it could be that Renarin is just so boring that people's eyes glaze over and they stop noticing him.  He has few hobbies, and they are informed instead of shown on-screen (the difference between show and tell, pretty much).  He has very little physical description other than slender and speaking slowly, and being "proper".  It's just hard to understand him unless you keep up to date with all the WoB's and personally empathise with his disabilities because you are aware of what exactly they are.  

At this point I think that Renarin is one of those characters who is on his journey to character development, and hasn't gotten to the end yet, and that is why his characterisation feels so ... incomplete.  He wants to be a soldier, becomes a soldier for the first time in his life, and the next part of the plot would be realising that he doesn't actually like soldiering, and realising it wasn't as good as he thought it would be.  But his story so far ended at WoR and so we haven't seen the end, and what we have now is unsatisfying.  But that is okay, it's only a matter of time for now.

In the meantime, we can relieve our frustration by reading stories that have complete character arcs.  Since you finished Eagle of the Ninth, Marcus had similar problems.  He couldn't be a soldier, when he had wished to be a career legionnaire his entire life, and after his injury, he found something else to do.  He became an oculist and saved lives that way, even though it wasn't super exciting.  That is why I enjoyed the book so much.  When people find a simple life satisfying and fulfilling, that is what I call a good ending.  Not everyone has to save the world to be a good person.  Just don't be boring and passive.  That is all I want.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I like your Laral and to be fair, it isn't as if the girl had much choice on the matter. She was basically sold to Roshone and set up to marry his son. When he died, she was to marry him. I am sorry but she basically was a slave within her own household, her entire agency was removed from her and she certainly lacked the means to kill her torturer like Shallan did not to forget, unlike Shallan, she would have never gotten away with it.

The difference between Laral and Shallan is that Shallan had so many more opportunities and advantages, including having more family wealth, and more of a support system in the form of her brothers.  Because she had brothers, Shallan was more willing to take risks to save them, to leave the known comforts of an estate she rarely left and endanger her own life.  She had people to protect.

Laral was alone in the world after her father died, and she didn't have Shallan's inquistive scholar's mind, or artistic skill, which are incredibly advantageous because they are the perfect Vorin womanly virtues that make a woman attractive as a wife.  She had no agency, I agree, and no choice, and no opportunities, which makes her the anti-Shallan, who had these things for narrative convenience.  

Shallan's life sucked, I don't deny that, but Shallan had the chance to get out of it.  Laral didn't, and she had no Jasnah Kholin as a childhood dream to chase, to become a teacher or mentor.  Shallan got Jasnah, Tyn, Palona, Iyatil, and then Navani as female mentors.  Laral's only alternative to marrying Roshone was running away and becoming a tenner in the city, equivalent to Gaz's desertion from Sadeas's army.  If Gaz didn't have a patroness or benefactor in the form of Shallan, he would be a nameless mercenary/bandit languishing in obscurity and mediocrity just like city tenners would.  

And that is sad.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:26 AM, Erklitt said:

Just ... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
for that haunted look on Laral's face where she wears the bride's prayer.

Honestly, I didn't realize something like that was even possible in that kind of 'comic inspired' style.
(And I sure hope I'm not treading any dangerous ground here with that wording - I am such a non-artist )

If you ever watch animated cartoons (especially the classic Disney ones from the 1990's) in slow motion, you will be able to see how expressive they are.  If you pause anywhere when a character is talking, you can see what they feel, beyond the dialogue.  That is the level of emotiveness that I aspire to recreate, the kind of expressions where the audience can understand what emotion I want to represent just with a quick glance.  Of course, there is only so much I can do with a static image, but I try.  And when people notice, that is always a good thing - it means that all my practice and obsessiveness in trying to capture a moment and shove it into a 2D sketch made of flat lines on a flat screen was effective.

It's the same thing that a lot of graphic novels and webcomics try to do, but they have panels and panels of context to set the scene and the mood.  If my visual "message" in the form of one random sketch got across so that a non-artist can appreciate it, then I feel extremely flattered.  Thank you.  It makes me feel that what I am doing is "working".

 

On 21/07/2016 at 3:58 AM, Erklitt said:

@sheep You know what I find really fascinating? You don't like Hoid, and I do, yet you sketch him in a way I find fitting. I agree he's scheming, and usually I don't like scheming people, but for Hoid with all his knowledge and experience I make an exception, because I really think he's trying to do good. And to my mind, you captured the face he presents to the world very well - it's the mask he wears. In those rare moments when he talked openly to Dalinar, I'm sure he looked different - but while he goes about insulting people, I can perfectly picture him now thanks to your sketch. Thanks!!

I find myself disliking a whole lot of fictional characters; I'm kind of picky that way.  But I am aware that I am being overly nitpicky, and if I dislike them, it's due to something that I feel is justified, and it's not just because of something silly, like "I don't like their face".  It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of a series, or prevent me from being able to understand their character enough to turn them into a visual, drawn image.  In fact, I think that because I dislike them, I understand them better - their defining character traits are what I recognise as something that, if I ever knew them in person, would prevent me from wanting to be friends with them.

Wit is an interesting character, and he pops up so often and knowing so much.  I guess I am frustrated at that because he's always shown doing mysterious things for significant purposes, but the purposes and motivations are never explained, and I find it incredibly frustrating.  But if I never drew something because I disliked them, I would rarely draw anything at all.

 

On 21/07/2016 at 4:45 AM, Rasarr said:

I love, love, love those black-and-white sketches. Elhokar scenes and Wit chatting with a cremling are so fitting to their personality (also Elhokar is my favourite character in SA, so I'm just gushing in general here). And those scenes in the camp interiors 

Elhokar's a bit hard to pin down, to me.  One of his goals is to be a respected king, and he wants to look good to the people so that the people will love him, and that is why he hated Kaladin so much in the arena.  So my drawing of him shows him as someone who is somewhat aware of how royalty should look, with flamboyant clothes and fashionable hair, but is neurotic and overcompensating.  So I give him sad eyes.

All those minor characters have interesting personalities and motivations, and they need a bit of love, because no one ever draws them, and people rarely discuss them because it's more interesting to try and determine exactly how many lumens the stormlight coming out of Kaladin's mouth is compared to the lumens of a diamond broam.  I don't blame them, since it's been years since the last book, but I quite enjoy coming up with character designs.

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

I think Dalinar would have been ridiculously proud of Adolin after the duel, but before, he would have been ragging mad his young son saw fit to wager his new Shardplate, especially considering how much trouble the family went to secure this particular one. We should not forget how Adolin stated nobody thought he could win: everyone pinned him for the loser. Everyone surely included his own father, after all, Adolin was just 16 and inexperienced because let's face it, there is only so much experience you can have at such a young age.

Adolin at 16 had 10 years of military training by then, even if he only had Shardplate for a few months before the duel.  It would have been obvious that he was talented and dedicated by then (I'm not sure how old a person has to be to choose their Vorin religious Calling, but Adolin mentioned he chose Duelling as his), and if everyone underestimated Adolin's skill, they still respected it enough not to call off the match.  Remember in the 4-on-1 duel, Relis Ruthar's friends didn't want to hurt Renarin because they were all aware he was completely outmatched and couldn't put up the least resistance if they went hard on him - there's still some honour to them, even if they are completely scags.  If Adolin had been completely useless, and Tinalar had won, he would have been a full Shardbearer and everyone would clap him on the back in public. In private everyone would think he was a bully, and be extra careful when socialising with him because they didn't want to risk the wrath of Blackthorn Dalinar.

Even when Adolin challenged Relis to a duel, the Brightlady highjudge Istow asked him "Are you sure this is what you want?".  So that gives the implication that there are mechanisms in place to stop foolish kids throwing away their family heirlooms (and it makes sense because these things are considered priceless).  So the fact that Adolin went through with his first Shard duel means that there was consent.  If Dalinar wanted to, and wasn't confident in Adolin's abilities, he could probably stop a duel before it took place if he paid off a highjudge witness enough.  The reason he couldn't in WoR was because she was already bought, and the duel already in progress, which would have resulted in a public forfeit.

Evidence points toward Adolin's using Gavilar's Firestorm in his first duel, btw.

Quote

Dalinar shivered at the thought of someone else wearing his Plate or holding Oathbringer. It was unnatural. And yet, the lending of the king’s Blade and Plate—or before the kingship had been restored, the lending of a highprince’s Blade and Plate—was a strong tradition. Even Gavilar had not broken it, though he had complained about it in private.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings.

If Dalinar was so proud of Adolin, he would have encouraged him. in beating anyone who dissed the Kholin name.  I can't remember reading that Dalinar was upset with Adolin specifically for wagering his Plate, because Adolin in WoR reminiscing about Tinalar thinks "nobody took me seriously then, either", which I understood to mean the high dahn lighteyes rather than his family.  Please correct me if I have forgotten something!

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

I need to offer additional precision. Adolin, of course, is very fit, athletic and would give a run to anyone anyone's money in any yearly swimsuit calendar. He, however, has been training in a similar way, for years and while wearing an artifact which increases his speed, his strength and his endurance. It is commented in WoK (or WoR) how difficult it was for former Shardbearer to learn how to fight without them. I suspect relying endlessly on its advantages to keep you going might make you unprepared to pace yourselves appropriately and it would impact on your fighting strategy: you will not fight the same if you only need one strike to slay an opponent nor will you fight the same if the same opponent has to strike countless hits before he can think of harming you.

The best example to illustrate my point would be Kaladin upon his first bridge run. Despite being muscular, fit and well trained, he literally drop down exhausted after running the bridge above one chasm. His despair upon finding out he'd have to do it over again, several more times, before getting back to camp was palpable. Yes, he had been a slave for 8 months, but still this scene illustrates how unprepared all of Kaladin's previous training made him for this particular task. Training wise, stop and go is about the worst you could do, cardio wise, it is super hard, especially when you have never done it before. You may have run long distances before, but go to the stop and go motion could still kill you if you aren't careful. After a while, Kaladin decides to train for the bridge run and he improves massively, both in strength and in cardio. Overall, I do think Kaladin's training has been more diverse than Adolin which would give him an edge, training wise. 

Adolin would probably wear a full body wetsuit on any beach photoshoot.  Only the Shattered Plains annual wet uniform contest would be something he would participate in, and then only unwillingly.

Kaladin is probably more fit than Adolin, but I wouldn't say Adolin's current physical state (minus the bruises and broken wrist) is a disadvantage in itself, maybe when compared to stormlight-fuelled tanks like Kaladin, but to other Shardbearers, Adolin in top form.  It is difficult for Shardbearers to learn to fight without Shards, but how often does that happen?  Shardbearers give up their shards when they die or get old enough to retire, so they never need to learn to fight without.  And even when Shardbearers do fight in Shardplate, they take it off as soon as the battle ends, as Jakamav does when he goes to drink wine.  Adolin and Elhokar are the weird ones for staying in their plate for up to and over 24 hours out of paranoia, because although they can't feel the weight of the Plate while wearing it, it is still a stuffy, closed metal sauna that you sweat continuously in.  Dehydration can be as exhausting as fatigue at the end of the day.  Up until the end of WoR, Adolin's only fights without Shardplate were with Szeth and Sadeas, he otherwise didn't fight against humans.  So up until then, he had no need to consider learning to fight without Shards, just as he probably never learned how to ride normal horses in Plate, or how to go a week without a bath.  Maybe things will change.

Gilbert courted another, and Anne courted another man but refused him.  Courting back then was just "walking out with a beau", just dates and nothing really intimate.  I thought it was romantic for Anne to realise that she loved him the whole time and never knew it, but yeah it was frustrating for readers and Gilbert in the friendzone.  But compared to other authors that follow the "loved him/her all along" plotline, Anne of Green Gables does it very well and they end up married for the long term.  There have been other stories where it just seems too forced, or too convenient, or just kind of unsatisfying and kind of gross at the end if someone says "I have loved you since you were a child" and he/she was in an adult in the story at the time.  

You focus so much on Adolin that you forget that there are other cogs in the machine that are small, but still important.  There are plenty of normals who are happy being normal and don't resent their lives.  Navani has found her purpose, and it was proved to be useful, and I think she has the experience and motherly instincts enough to be able to help Adolin, since she understands what it's like to love someone that she can't be with because reasons.  There was never a good opportunity in the past since she had a grudge against Shallan because of Jasnah, and it forced Adolin to have to pick one over the other to spend time with, and he chose Shallan.

The bridgemen too - and the Bridge Four bodyguards have been around enough to be aware of the level of hate Adolin has for Sadeas, as one of them nodded to him after the confrontation in the chapter "Uncut Gems".  They're with him all the time, and after they saved his life in the Battle of Narak, Adolin stopped resenting them for invading his privacy and not being his dead Cobalt Guards.  They of all people would be the most likely to sympathise with his situation.

If everyone is getting something out of their relationship partner, what are they putting in?  I think that's the more important question.  What does Adolin contribute, and if his virtue is "being genuine", what does that mean when he's hiding the Sadeas secret and his public persona is a sham?

Quote

“I speak so confidently to everyone else,” Adolin said, “since I know they rely on me.”
Chapter 14, "Ironstance", Words of Radiance

 

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

Huh, many guys never even kiss 5 girls within their lifetime... Five is a lot and more than enough to remove the "wow" factor. In any way, it is very hard to determine how many girls Adolin has kissed or not: I am simply settling on "not many" while keeping the option "Shallan may be the first" open. Jamie Fraser issues were completely different: being a runaway wanted "criminal" and having been flogged to near death kinda put a hold on his romantic endeavor. Adolin has no excuse for his horrible track record except for himself.

This is true about Harry, simply knowing there was something else outside the Dursley's household may have been enough to keep him steady. His new found self-confidence, found at Hogwart, probably helped as well. The difference would be Renarin has not been mistreated within his own household. He was cared for, love and supported: he was never abused. So again, the comparison does not hold all that well.

Jamie Fraser was a soldier too, with all those soldierly opportunities just like Adolin.  Jamie said he didn't want it because they were all prostitutes in poor condition and he was grossed out, and thought he had better standards than that.

Harry turned out commendably well for being an orphan who was abused throughout his formative years, surrounded by many terrible adult role models like all those DADA teachers, the secretive Dumbledore, and the manchild replacement-father Sirius Black.  Renarin is different from Harry Potter that he has no named antagonist figure like Snape or Draco, and Dalinar keeps people from ever becoming one, like Wit and his teasing.  The sheltering/hover-parenting in some instances can be more of a bad thing than a good thing, and it is enough to set Renarin apart from his peers like any bully could do.  Just look at what Petunia and Vernon Dursley's love did to Dudley Dursley.

Kaladin's childhood was different from the other children because Lirin was a light-touch discliplinarian.

Quote

“I’m sorry, Father,” he said.
Kal’s father, Lirin, carefully tightened the strap around the arm of the young woman who was tied onto the narrow operating table. Her eyes were closed; Kal had missed the administration of the drug. “We will discuss your tardiness later,” Lirin said
Chapter 10, "Stories of Surgeons", Way of Kings

Lirin raised Kaladin to understand why the rules were rules, and that involved questioning the establishment.  The intent was to create in Kaladin a rational and clear thinker, which would make him a better surgeon.  But it failed because Lirin was so lenient in encouraging Kaladin to independently conclude that saving lives through medicine was the right thing that Kaladin ended up formulating his personal moral code in another direction.  Kaladin can be too clever for his own good that he ends up shooting himself in the foot, which makes him unsuitable for being a foot soldier or a squadleader/sergeant, because they are roles that require obedience and discipline.  He would be good in a commando unit, or as an elite solo bodyguard as he is in WoR, but the role of a regular soldier is something he could never truly be happy with, even whilst he is discontent doing it and wishing for the good old days.  I do not think Kaladin could ever be really happy no matter what he does; it's just not in his character.  It would teach him humility and to be more considerate with people instead of lashing out, if he understood himself enough to admit it.

Even the people who sympathise with Szeth and admire his more positive qualities such as his determination know that it's fuelled by blind faith.  I do not think you need to sympathise with Szeth to enjoy SA.  It is likely that he gets an eventual death by redemption so it's better for you not to feel an attachment.  I personally don't bother to like every single character or protagonist I read.  Understanding their motivations and accepting their importance in creating an enjoyable story yes, but a personal attachment or empathy is very, very rare.  

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

He practically spat on the idea of becoming a city lord... maybe he doesn't look down on it, but he states it as if he'd rather have all his tooth pulled then occupy this position. So again, had he expanded on why it was such a bad idea, I may have sympathize with him. I also think his family spoiled him by refusing to force him into any course of action, simply focusing on keeping him safe, but not carrying of their over-indulgence may not be the right solution.

I've read and thought about it and concluded that Renarin's introversion, isolation, and lack of occupations/hobbies has led to him being focused on his own experience and preferences to the point of self-centeredness.  He can't participate in physical activities and doesn't devote himself to his other interests like fabrial science because if he can't be a soldier, he doesn't want to do anything else.  Nothing else would be good enough, and when he becomes a real soldier, fabrial science wouldn't help him much.  I think it was always a matter of time for Renarin; he can be so fixated that if he didn't get Dalinar's plate he would eventually directly demand to be a soldier or threaten to jump off a chasm, rather than continue to make offhand passive-aggressive comments about his uselessness.  And that's why you don't like him - Renarin swims in self-pity, and you prefer pro-active protagonists who wield their agency deliberately and with awareness.  

 

Quote

“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.” The ardents were very specific about that. Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did.
You just did your best, picking a profession and an attribute of the Almighty to emulate. A Calling and a Glory, it was said. You worked hard at your profession, and you spent your life trying to live according to a single ideal. The Almighty would accept that, particularly if you were lighteyed—the better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had already.
Dalinar’s Calling was to be a leader, and his chosen Glory was determination. He’d chosen both in his youth, though he now viewed them very differently than he once had.
“You are right, of course, Father,” Renarin said. “I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I. Likely I will end up as citylord of a small town. Assuming I don’t tuck myself away in the devotaries.” The boy’s eyes turned forward.
Chapter 18, "Highprince of War", Way of Kings

Dalinar chose Leadership as his Calling, and Adolin chose Duelling.  Neither of them chose being a soldier.  The only thing required by Vorinism is excellence.  Renarin wants to be a soldier because it is the opportunity that was stripped from him by a fluke of genetics rather than a faith-based desire to get into Vorin heaven, no matter what he says.

Quote

“It’s no shame to not be fit enough for battle, Brightlord. Not every man is needed for fighting.”
“Sure,” Renarin said bitterly. “Everyone tells me that. Then they all go back to fighting. The ardents, they claim every Calling is important, but then what do they teach about the afterlife? That it’s a big war to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls. That the best soldiers in this life are glorified in the next.”
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

He singlemindedly wants what he can't have because he thinks it will make him "normal" and "just like the other boys", and anything else (like a comfortable desk job) would be a consolation prize to remind him of how he wasn't good enough for "the real thing".  Other people who lack a disability would not be able to understand it.  So he passes it off as being pious, which people would be understand, even if they do not keep the faith as much as they think he does.  

You consciously picked up on Renarin's sulkiness, and if you have also noticed his secrecy and lack of transparency with others and himself (though this last one is due to lack of page time and PoV) this has helped to set him up as a character undeserving of your empathy.  

 

 

 

 

Art time

 

Character design - Torol Sadeas

Quote

Sadeas strolled up to Adolin, hands clasped behind his back, wearing a fashionable open-fronted short brown coat and an embroidered green stock. The buttons along the front of the coat were gemstones. Emeralds to match the stock.
Chapter 50, "Uncut Gems", Words of Radiance

 

My strongest visual impression of Sadeas was that he was smug and punchable.  And his description in WoK as someone with a ruddy face, bulbous nose and long curly hair was not something that was particularly heroic, so I didn't bother try to make him look trustworthy at all.  The top sketch is him and Ialai as arena spectators.  Imagine Ialai saying something like, "That young Kholin is perhaps better than you at his age" and Sadeas saying "Hah, gurl pleeease."  Bottom is Sadeas in his Shardplate gloating (seems like something he'd do) over his new Shardblade, Oathbringer.  I try to follow book descriptions for clothing designs as closely as I can, but I do take artistic license and I prefer a sketched outfit to be cohesive in colour and style.  So I will choose something that I feel has a stylish and coordinated "look" over book perfectionism.  A "stock", by the way, is a cravat, and the coat design is based on a Tyrolean jacket.

 

 

Character Design - Laral Wistiow

Quote

“Don’t you want to become a lighteyes? Win a Shardblade?”
“Father says that doesn’t happen very often.”
She knelt down before him. “I’m sure you could do it.” Those eyes, so bright and alive, shimmering green, the color of life itself.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

Quote

“Laral,” Kaladin’s mother said. “She’s wearing a bride’s prayer on her sleeve.”
Kaladin started, seeing the white cloth with its blue glyphpair sewn onto the sleeve of her dress. She’d burn it when the engagement was formally announced.
Chapter 44, "The Weeping", Way of Kings

 

 

Lots of people don't like Laral because she wasn't very nice to Kaladin, but I kind of like her.  Her story is the one of the girl-next-door who got hot, and her motif colour is yellow, because she wears it the most often in story.  The dress design is a havah version of Madeline's dress from the animated tv show with the nuns, with open sleeves because Laral is young enough not to cover up, and it was a visual way to show how naive and innocent she was.  The bottom sketch is "Laral's farewell", because in that chapter it is where her engagement to Roshone is announced, and also when Kaladin and Tien are recruited into Amaram's army and they never see each other again.

The sad part is that Laral is pretty much the anti-Shallan.  She is the orphan girl from a good family that became poor, but unlike Shallan, Laral doesn't have Shallan's strength of will, precocious intelligence, creativity or determination.  Shallan killed her father and chased Jasnah by ship for 6 months, and when she didn't have suitable tutors for her education, she made up for it by studying on her own.  Laral, in a small rural town, had few education opportunities either, and fewer natural talents than Shallan, and therefore passively wished for a Shardbearer knight to come to her rescue.  Now you can see where "Shallan as a Mary Sue" character interpretations come from.

 

 

Character design - Gaz

Quote

A man lounged in the shade a distance from the eating men. He turned, revealing a face that was so scarred his beard grew in patches. He was missing one eye—the other was brown—and didn’t bother with an eye patch. White knots at his shoulders marked him as a sergeant, and he had the lean toughness Kaladin had learned to associate with someone who knew his way around a battlefield.
Chapter 6, "Bridge Four", Way of Kings

Quote

“The world just changed, Gaz,” Kaladin said, leaning in close. “I died down at that chasm. Now you’ve got my vengeful spirit to deal with.”
Squirming, Gaz looked about frantically for help that wasn’t there. Kaladin didn’t have trouble holding him down. There was one thing about running bridges: If you survived long enough, it built up the muscles.
Chapter 11, "Droplets", Way of Kings

 

Gaz, the designated villain who is actually quite sad and pathetic once you take away the sergeant's knots.  I drew him as wiry and scruffy, and because he is short, the "one size fits all" uniforms are too big for him and look baggy.  The uniform jacket is similar to the Bridge Four foot soldier uniforms, but in Sadeas green, and on Gaz it is wrinkly and poorly fitting.  The top sketch is Kaladin bullying Gaz after coming back from the Honor Chasm, and if I illustrated it properly, it would be all dark and dramatic with an open wire cage of recharged spheres spilling over the ground.  The bottom sketch is Gaz the carpenter, earning redemption by fixing up Shallan's slave cage.

This was one of the easier designs to do; I think everyone has a good idea of what he looks like.  I also think Brandon Sanderson makes people blush way too much.  Even Gaz blushes at one point at something saucy Shallan says.  Gaz.  Blushing.  

 

 

Alethi fashion plates
Styles by social class

 

Lower - Hesina and Lirin

Quote

Hesina was a tall woman, and she usually kept her hair pulled back into a tail, then wrapped a kerchief around her head. Today, she wore a knit hat over that. She had a long brown coat that matched Kal’s, and the blue hem of her skirt just barely peeked out at the bottom.
Chapter 25, "The Butcher", Way of Kings

You can probably tell this was inspired by Russian peasant clothing of the earlier 20th century.  In my mind, darkeyes wear simple, practical clothes in natural (undyed) colours because Soulcasting is expensive.  The crops that can be used for consumption can also be used for fibre, such as flax for linen, which is what was done in the old days before industrial farming and market demand for a hugely varied diet.  

 

Middle - Laral and Roshone

Quote

A middle-aged man with a short, grey-streaked beard stepped out. He wore a ruffled violet coat, tailored so that it was short at the front—reaching only to his waist—but long at the back. Beneath it, he wore a golden takama, a long, straight skirt that went down to his calves.
Chapter 25, "The Butcher", Way of Kings

Laral's dress is a version of the vintage 1950's housecoat, which looks glamourous but is made to be worn by working housewives.  Laral's job is to be a citylord's secretary.  Roshone wears a takama, which is the traditional manskirt.  The text description says he wears a tailcoat with a skirt, so out of lack of inspiration, I used the aesthetic of the Scottish black tie kilt, which has a similar silhouette.  I think this is too fancy and would be more fitting for Aladar than Roshone, honestly.

Now imagine Dalinar in a takama.  Do they wear pants underneath?

 

Upper - Inkima and Jakamav

Quote

Inkima—Jakamav’s accompaniment for the afternoon—gave a tinkling laugh. She was a plump thing with light yellow eyes who dyed her hair black. She wore a red dress. The color did not look good on her.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings

The fun thing about drawing rich and frivolous lighteyes is that I can use all the impractical designs and fanciful colours as I want.  I find it interesting to combine Vorin modesty with elaborate designs - I figure that a young and wealthy Alethi girl would think it's fashion forward and alluring to cover everything up except for her face and her right arm, which reminds all the young men that there's another arm just like it.  

And Jakamav has a preference for the curvy girls, which Adolin lacks.

 

 

A random sketch

Nothing Ridiculous

Quote

“Can you speak, yet say nothing ridiculous?”
Eyes turned toward Renarin, who stood just behind his brother. Renarin hesitated, eyes opening wide at the attention.
“Nothing ridiculous,” Renarin said slowly.
Wit laughed. “Yes, I suppose that will satisfy me. Very clever.
Chapter 15, "The Decoy", Way of Kings

 

When you look Wit in the eyes, all you see is crazy looking out.

 

The end.

On 19/07/2016 at 0:28 PM, Jondesu said:

@sheep, I personally picture Kaladin about 6'2", not crazy tall but just enough that he sticks out on the battlefield a little. Muscular, but not bodybuilder muscular, more like a classic tough bodyguard maybe. Not top heavy, all muscles in the arms but skinny in the legs, but more well balanced and just...powerful looking. I don't think anyone would look at him and want to pick a fight, at least when he's not looking like a slave. I remember how easily he stood down the soldier who tried to take the bridgemen's water. You don't do that if you're not at all physically imposing, even if you're no Ahnold.

jW

I originally put Kaladin at what I thought was a tall but normal-ish for Earth height, as some other artists were putting Kaladin at 6'9" because apparently he is only a few fingers shorter than Rock (what the heck is a finger???), and being someone who is not tall like that, I just cannot wrap my head around a person being that tall.  And it turns out that in some areas and some countries such as the Netherlands, 6'2" is not considered tall because it is the average height for young men under 25.  So I gave up and settled on something that is taller than average for most people, but not too far into walking beanstalk territory.  I know it's a fantasy series and most people don't care, but I thought about it a lot because I am crazy and want to get things right.  Even though I draw in a stylised style, I aim to stay close to realistic human proportions.

Yeah...I can't imagine Kaladin as an Ahnold.  Ever played the game Street Fighter?  The proportions on those characters (Guile, Nash, pretty much everyone, girls included) was something I tried to avoid.  To me, Kaladin has what they call functional strength, and he is fit and has those veiny arms, but a lot of intimidation-power comes from his scary eyes.  I try to draw them as best as I can when I know my art style can be cutesy and Disney-ish.  So if you would be too afraid to pick a fight with my mental image and depictions of Kaladin (relevant picture in the art pile at the end of this post), then I feel like I've done a decent job of capturing his character.

 

 

On 19/07/2016 at 4:33 PM, Erunion said:

With lower gravity, I think the Alethi are a bit taller than that, so their 6'5 is equivalent to our 6'2. Maybe. 
But Kaladin definitely is built like an athlete. Strong, overall well built. Muscles in the legs, back and shoulders. Strong, but not exceptional arms/pectorals. Imposing, but not bulky. Slim, but not slight or skinny. 
He had an excellent fighter/martial artist physique from the army, then lost a bit of it through 6 months a slave, then rebuilt muscle (especially shoulders/back/legs) hauling bridges, especially with Rock's extra rations. 

Add to that an intense (grumpy) stare, and Kaladin is NOT someone you'd want to mess with. 

There must be something about Rosharan gravity if Shallan thinks she is short for a woman. 

Quote

“Remove your top, slave,” she commanded.
Kaladin stared her right in her blue eyes and felt an almost irresistible urge to spit at her. No. No, he couldn’t afford that. Not when there was a chance. He pulled his arms out of the sacklike clothing, letting it fall to his waist, exposing his chest.
Despite eight months as a slave, he was far better muscled than the others. “A large number of scars for one so young,” the noblewoman said thoughtfully. “You are a military man?”
Chapter 6, "Bridge Four", Way of Kings

Kaladin actually spent 8 months as a slave and even though he was punished worse than regular slaves for his escape attempts and being disobedient, somehow he is still the most physically fit.  That is why there is so much confusion about Kaladin's physique - bodybuilders and weightlifters have to maintain a high protein diet even on their off-season if they want to keep their muscles.  If you're starving, they're the first thing to go.

 

 

On 19/07/2016 at 4:43 PM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, I do love that Veil Noir aesthetic! And your idea of Truthwatcher spren is neat, an has now become my headcanon. And Kaladin... oh gods, that headband. That horrid, horrid headband... Brrr. You have a good point with his bulk, though.

As for your question about Mraize, I've always imagined him with more triangular face and sharper features. Also, don't Thaylens have those long, tuck-behind-your-ears eyebrows? 

The headband is cool!  It keeps hair out of his eyes and covers up the shash brand.  

In my head, Mraize had a smooth and slick personality but since he is battle-scarred and carries a dartgun (like a pocket pistol in a world without gunpowder) he seemed too tough to have sharp features.  It would have made him look more delicate, and he is not the kind of care to worry about getting his hands dirty.  That is why I drew him with his sleeves rolled up in the character portrait.  The sharp features I reserved for Wit/Hoid.

Thaylens do have long white eyebrows.  The crew of the Wind's Pleasure were Thaylens, and Shallan would have recognised Mraize as one immediately, but she didn't point it out in the Ghostbloods chapter.  I can only assume that Mraize trims them off and dyes them, just as Tyn uses the eyedrops to change her eye colour.  Big white Thaylen eyebrows would be unusual and make for a bad disguise in Alethkar.

 

 

23 hours ago, Argel said:

I'm really loving the Renarin artwork. They are giving me a different, better sense of his character. Well done!!

Thanks!  I know it is kinda weird, but when I do a cartoony sketch of a character, I try to translate my thoughts and impressions of their personality into a visual image - and it becomes my version of a character analysis.  When I draw several drafts of a character, incorporating details I know about them from the narrative, and come out with a finished picture that screams "Yes, I am Wolly Winka" , I feel like I know them better.  It helps me understand characters better if I can translate text to a visual image, and if it has helped other people, then I am glad.  I think this paragraph makes sense if you skip to the bottom of this post and look at my character art.

In that picture Renarin I tried to depict Renarin as young and vulnerable, and conflicted - he holds his autism box, something that he knows makes him different, and reminds him of his blood weakness, but it is comforting to him.  And the spren that only he can see and hear and whispers things to him, healed his eyes.  And even though it is creepy and probably a Voidbringer, it is somehow comforting to have, too.  Glys is wrapping his tendrils around Renarin in a spren hug. 

 

 

18 hours ago, CarolaDavar said:

Wow, your Renarin pics are so good! (I mena, he looks weird with his glasses off, and that makes it realistic to me, because I think most people look weird without their glasses on. That is, if they had glasses in the first place.)

Anyway. I tried implementing a few of your ideas. . .

. . .Thoughts?

It looks a lot better now!  The jewels look way improved.
I think you could add a little more shadowing under and around the base of the gems, in order to show that they are hanging on top of the hand.  Right now, from far away, they look kinda like they are growing out of the hand.  You could add a bit more shadow underneath the chains as well.  And as a side note, if you want to portray a flat, reflective, polished surface like a gem or polished metal, don't be afraid to use a sharp highlight.  Reflective, shiny objects reflect more light, and facets facing the light source should have a highlight.  

An example of this would be in this depiction of a gemheart. 

Gemheart Example

It's a very stylised picture, but the sharp highlights give the impresion that it is very shiny and made of sharp edges, like a crystal.  You've done highlights on the tops of the gems, but you could try use a more opaque white instead to make them "blingy".  And you could do that to the gold settings on the gems, and the soulcaster wrist band.  Pretty much everything but the skin.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

OMG: I so want to read this scene... In my head, you have very young fopish Adolin who looks like a silly idiot, but a silly idiot with a brand new Shardplate which others think may be easy to win. Tinalar wanted a Shardplate for himself and he thought he'd goat the kid into foolhardily agree to duel for Shards. We know duel for Shards are very rare, so Adolin getting into one, at 16, was probably out of normal.

And I so want to read Dalinar's reaction when he hears about it  I also really wanted to know which weapon he used to defeat Tinalar... Did Dalinar let him used Oathbringer or did Gavilar have to step in to give his nephew a Blade to fight with?

I think Dalinar would have been proud for Adolin to be a full Shardbearer at 16.  I think Elhokar became a full Shardbearer at 21/22 after the War of Reckoning, with Parshendi Shards, and I don't think he collected them himself.  That is pretty young, but Adolin must have set a record for youngest Shard duel winner.
Even when proto-Bondsmith Dalinar banned Shard duels in WoK, he still allowed honour duels, and the old Blackthorn Dalinar was the type of person to kill a man who insulted him.  Honour is important, and Tinalar dissed House Kholin.  He had it coming.

It was probably Gavilar's Blade.  Gavilar is the King and a diplomat, lending Shards is what a King does, as a show of power.  Dalinar is the enforcer and nobody touches his Shards.  That's why it's super shocking for him to give his Shards to Sadeas and Renarin, because it's like he's throwing away his Blackthorn legacy.

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

My thoughts are Adolin's training is not as complete as Kaladin... Adolin has been prancing around in a Shardplate since he was a teenager  He may be a trained soldier, he remains a Shardbearer fully protected in his indestructible shell. Also, apart from his daily dueling practice where he does controlled regular moves in a secure environment and the occasional gem hunt where he hits a few Parshendis with the same difficulty my 3 years old son has tossing around his stuffed animals , he doesn't seem to be doing "other" physical training. In comparison, Kaladin has used to train himself, hard. Just look at when he decided he wanted to improve his "bridge carrying strategies": the guy is a machine! He also is used to use up his own body whenever he is doing work and while he may have the advantage of stormlight, it was unconscious use at this time and it still isn't the equivalent of a Shardplate. I'd say Kaladin is a much more versatile athlete than Adolin and I wouldn't be surprised if Adolin, once removed from his "protection", would realize his limits are not quite what he thought they would be. 

Well, Kaladin certainly isn't romantic, but the Gilbert and Anne romance did start off by them yelling at each other... Though in fact, Gilbert has always been infatuated by Anne: he just didn't know how to approach her. Alright, I do like hurt and comfort  When it is well done, it is adorable and cute, but it gets easily badly done which is a problem. I never heard of the laws of narrative causality... Adolin could or could not have a near death moment: technically he has had many, but none turned out into arcs for him. There is a trope for a character who sits by the bed of the injured... I forgot the name. It was cute.

Daily duelling practice is still vigourous physical exercise, Shardplate or not.  Every time Adolin gets out of his Plate, he's disgustingly sweaty.  He also does a lot of riding and some martial arts in the form of Shard-wrestling, given that he has a habit of using wrestling moves in the arena when he wants to show he can win a duel without using a Shardblade.  So even if Adolin doesn't have Kaladin's bridge-lifting bulk, he eats well and is very physically active, and in my imagination could give Kaladin a run for his spheres in the Cosmere's annual fundraising swimsuit calendar.  

See, Gilbert is very loyal, even if he didn't know how to show it.  How many other stories about school crushes have characters who love no one else for years and years and stay loyal?  Of all the novels that featured 12 year old protagonists that aged up, most of them dated or did the things with other people before realising that they loved their school friend all along.  And the trope you are looking for is the "Florence Nightingale effect".  Narrative causality is the mysterious force in fiction that forces probability to bend in order to create an interesting plot for readers.  It is the magic that leads a completely average cow herding farmboy to find the mysterious sword in the enchanted lake, and makes the evil Dark Lord explain all his evil plans to Cleftchin McMullet .  Yeah, none of it is realistic, but readers enjoy reading it, otherwise it wouldn't happen so much.

Navani would care for Adolin.  She's a non-Radiant who has a "too old for this crem" attitude and it's the kind of down-to-earth response that would help ground Adolin and keep him from dwelling too much on what his new station in life is.  Since she experienced a similar thing when Gavilar died and suddenly she had no power, and no one wanted her anymore, and Aesudan took over all the things she thought was her contribution to family.  It would be nice if he got over the "you seduced my dad" thing and they had a heartfelt discussion about the importance of holding Alethkar since Dalinar is Bondsmithing and Elhokar is useless.

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Of course, being rebellious is great when you are faced with undesirable conditions requiring others to take action, such as Bridge 4. However, when you live within a soceity, you can't always reject every form of authority, if you do, you are an anarchist. In other words, you have to choose your battles, which ones to fight and which ones not to fight. Kaladin isn't doing it, he fights everything, all at once and because he is a darkeyes, thus oppressed, he sees himself as justified to do so. Unfortunately, there is nothing I dislike more than having a character using an existing condition as an excuse to justify every single actions. 

I personally do not read his depression as a character flaw: it can't be a character flaw if it is outside your control and if it isn't something you can improve or heal from. It is more of an handicap than a flaw which again bothers me, because as the story currently is written, Kaladin has almost no wrong: he is a pure victim of circumstances. Other characters have obvious character flaws, but Kaladin just seems to have not many. The only one I can definitely pinned on him is narrow-mindness so well there's that, at least.

If Adolin has kissed 5 or fewer girls, it averages out to around one a year since he started wife-hunting at age 18.  That's rare enough to make a guy go "wow" if most of them were very quick, rushed kisses given by girls who were watched over by chaperones.  I find it hard to imagine that a guy who courted half the warcamp didn't get a kiss or two at the end of a date, when he drops them at their houses by carriage.  Even Jamie Fraser, that other 23 year old virgin, made a point of mentioning that he was a virgin and not a monk.  

Harry was 11 years old when Hagrid busted down the Dursley's door and told him he was a wizard.  Kids can be pretty resilient and impressionable, and if you raised them in an abusive household, they would assume that is the way life is for everyone and wouldn't question it.  It wasn't until he went to Hogwarts that he realised he was special and abuse isn't the status quo.  When he went home, he had Hogwarts to look forwards to, and that made his suffering bearable.  Renarin is 19, and he has no Hagrid, and his "owl letter" is a spren that gives him crazy visions and pretty much condemns him to Damnation.  Or it could be that the first Harry Potter book was written for 12 year olds and kids want to read triumphant escapism rather than an analysis of mental illness.

So Kaladin's rebelliousness and lack of respect of authority came from his parents?  It makes a lot of sense, since Kaladin was given a lot of freedom and choice, compared to other children in the village, and people of his own rank.  Lirin is too much of an intellectual and raised Kaladin to be one too.  An after many long chapters of Kaladin not knowing what he was and what he should do with his life, he decided to become a soldier.  And that is what WoR Kaladin identified himself as, when he was too afraid to accept that he was become a Radiant.  The amusing thing is that because Kaladin is so difficult with authority figures, it actually makes him a terrible soldier because the chain of command is one of the most important institutions of being military.  He's a good fighter, but that doesn't make a person a good soldier.  He's a decent squadleader because of his charisma, but he is not a good commander when he rejects the chain of command -- and instead of trusting his Bridge Four bodyguards to do their job, he takes the burden on himself and pulls shifts without sleeping for a week.

If you are looking for flaws in Kaladin, one of them is his wilful blindness.  At the end of WoR he came to a realisation about prejudice and trust, but it's not full self-awareness.  And until he begins dissecting his behaviour and understanding the source of his resentment, his self-assured identity based on being an oppressed victim lashing out at perceived wrongdoers (or a soldier) is going to be mentally blinkered.  Maybe it doesn't sound like a huge flaw, but it's a very realistic flaw that other characters have, and many people IRL have too.  If everyone had huge flaws, they'd run the risk of being unredeemable to readers.  The example being Szeth - so many people hate on him, and a small amount of others think he deserves pity.

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, I do not think he was allowed to do as he wished growing up. I get the feeling the Kholin boys grew up in a very sheltered environment. It may not be obvious when reading Renarin because his disability directly impacts his abilities to develop successful relationships: you do expect him to struggle there. But Adolin? I suspect the boys probably were each other's friends all through the most defining part of their childhood which could provide an explanation as to why Adolin is so bad at developing relationships. I somehow get the impression Renarin's family used up his disability as an excuse for keeping him away from any challenging or meaningful tasks thus making him be ridiculously proud of himself for washing dirty pots. There are plenty of people having more crippling disabilities than Renarin who refuses to let those stop them, fighting to find other ways to achieve their goals. It may be, while being loving and supportive, Renarin's family didn't do much in trying to help learn to compensate for his disability, instead insisting on over-sheltering him which ultimately led to the scene I do not like.

So what does my reaction to the character say about myself? 

I would not say that Renarin is being disparaging toward the Ardentia or city government.  He doesn't look down on them, or think that they are institutions filled with terrible people - he just does not want them because they are not his childhood dream.  Just like Adolin doesn't mind if people give their Shardblades names, he just personally doesn't do it for his own.  Not much has been mentioned about Renarin and Adolin's childhood, but based on how Dalinar treats Renarin and how he and Adolin step around his disability, Renarin, lacking army training unlike most high ranking lighteyed boys, hasn't had much in the way of being taught discipline.  Sure, he can follow orders to wash plates and jump off roofs, but I think his childhood was filled with "you shouldn't do this" instead of "don't do this" and "no".  His family is just too loving and supportive to be strict on him.  And that is why no one killed his dream of being a soldier and going to soldier heaven.

Your view on Renarin shows that you are a tough love type who doesn't empathise with long and drawn out internal struggles in the mind of an introvert.  You'd rather grab them by the shoulders and shake them and say "SNAP OUT OF IT!!" or "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN!" rather than let them stew until they reach self-realisation.  Some people would think you're too harsh because it's not like you can just punch depression in the face.  Other people would agree that the "Get over it" approach is the right thing to do when you don't know what to do, but then again they are also the kind of people who give advice like "Just talk to her and ask her out" and to people like Renarin, and people who like Renarin, that kind of advice just doesn't work.  

Well, it would be a very boring world if we were all the same.

 

 

Art time

Because we were discussing and asking the question "How tall and how buff is Kaladin?", I have come to a conclusion, and my answer is "Very".

 

My eyes are up here

A really silly piece inspired by you guys.  
Would you mess with this Kaladin?  Keep in mind that Shallan is 5'6"/168cm and in this picture I drew Kaladin as 6'5"/196cm and he is slouching slightly.  To anyone who ships Shalladin, how would this ship even work, logistically.  She is eye level to his armpits and we all know Kaladin is lucky to bathe once a week...

It is also in character for Shallan to enjoy looking at shirtless young men.  One of the first drawings she does in WoK is a sketch of Yalb, who goes around shirtless in only a vest. 

 

 

Character design - Elhokar

Quote

The king’s uniform had the traditional long coat with buttons up the sides, but it was loose and relaxed, and ruffled lace poked out of the collar and cuffs. His trousers were solid blue, and were cut in the same baggy fashion as Ruthar’s. It all looked so informal to Dalinar.
Chapter 18, "Highprince of War", Way of Kings

 

I have only drawn Elhokar a grand total of once previously, and based his design on that old sketch.  I'm not really a huge fan of Elhokar, but I tried to depict him as I understood his personality.  He likes feasts and hedonism, so I gave him the classic spoiled prince hair (the prince from Shrek 2 has the same haircut), but he is actually tired and sad and aware that he's pretty useless.  The crown is based on the design of the stylised Kholin glyphpair, and the uniform looks like a very relaxed "pyjamas" version of the standard Kholin Army officer uniform.  Combined with his hair, he looks very unsoldierly, but Dalinar is too soft on him to call him out on breaking the Codes. The bottom picture of "thumbs down" Elhokar is based on how Roman emperors showed their disapproval at the circus when gladiators didn't perform well enough.  If you've seen the movie "Gladiator", I was thinking of the Commodus character.

 

 

Character design - Wit

Quote

The newcomer trotted up to them. Tall and thin, the King’s Wit rode easily on a black gelding. He wore a stiff black coat and black trousers, a color matched by his deep onyx hair. Though he wore a long, thin sword tied to his waist, as far as Adolin knew, the man had never drawn it. A dueling foil rather than a military blade, it was mostly symbolic.
Chapter 12, "Unity", Way of Kings

 

I don't really like Wit either, so I drew him as knowing and smug because he knows all the secrets and doesn't share any.  I saw the King's Wit as a court jester-like position, so I gave him one of those old fashioned page boy haircuts.  In my head he is very bouncy and energetic and exaggeratedly expressive - if Elhokar was giving a speech, Wit would be behind his back making funny faces at the crowd.  In the top right sketch, Wit is allomancing, not retouching his lipstick.  In the bottom sketch, Wit is talking to a cremling telling it his life story or whatever, as inspired by the epilogue to WoR.  I figured he was annoying like the Doctor from Doctor Who and did all sorts of crazy random things while talking very quickly for unknown reasons that end up making sense 5 episodes later. 

 

 

Character design - Kid Kal

Quote

The rocks Tien had given him were still in his pocket. He pulled them out, then took his canteen off his belt and washed them with water. The first one he’d been given showed the white swirls and strata. It appeared the other one had a hidden design too.
It looked like a face, smiling at him, made of white bits in the rock. Kal smiled despite himself, though it quickly faded. A rock wasn’t going to solve his problems.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

 

Do I like anyone at all?  I don't even like Kal that much either.  This design was deliberately made to resemble adult Kaladin, but with softer features.  Instead of intense and grumpy eyes, kid Kal is confused and uncertain.  His hair is shorter and neater (isn't it cute???), and I drew his trousers in the knickerbocker style because when a kid keeps growing taller by the day and clothing is expensive, you don't give him long pants.  Top right - Kal can actually smile when he is with Tien and the smiley rock.   Bottom - Kal being emo and thinking "These spheres ruined my life".  I tried to sum up my thoughts on his character in these sketches, and from my impression of his flashback chapters, he gets nonstop mood swings on top of those pesky puberty thoughts.

 

 

And those are my views on various characters.  As I've mentioned before, my imagination runs in 2D and this is how I interpreted these characters when I read.  Feel free to share what your own mental image is like.  I know that mine is biased because I don't like everyone!

And since we speculated on Kaladin's physical appearance, why can't Adolin get some time to shine?
Some random comics.
Disclaimer:  They were funny in my head!

 

Meanwhile, During a Highstorm - Shallan and Adolin

What does warcamp interior design look like?  Who knows.  The right side portrait is Dalinar's Shardplate and Oathbringer, if you bothered to inspect the details.
This was inspired by the "draw me like one of your French girls" scene from Titanic.

 

 

Meanwhile, During a Highstorm - Adolin and Kaladin

Kaladin:  Fashion?  You're spending the highstorm looking for new clothing?
Adolin:  Presentation is important, not that you would know.  What do they even teach in bridge school these days?
Kaladin:  You idiot!  We're wearing the same thing!!!

 

The end.

Sorry for this post being so long.

On 16/07/2016 at 7:42 AM, Rasarr said:

As usual, all I can do is gush and gush over your images. Love your Mraize design, even if it doesn't match up with my mental image, and Teenage Rebel Adolin is just plain hilarous.

I wish everyone could draw so then we could gush and gush over each other's mental images.  

What was your mental image of Mraize?  I honestly didn't have one until I decided to make a sketch and read and re-read the passages from WoR.  I'm so boring and obsessive that I try to keep my depictions canon-exact, and only use my own imagination where Brandon doesn't fill in the blanks.  I even went searching through all the Words of Brandon to make sure I drew chouta the right way.  

And yes, I really love silly AU's.  

 

On 16/07/2016 at 9:51 PM, Erklitt said:

I'm no artist and don't know what I'm talking about, but the way I imagine him his scars would be more disfiguring. Like where they cross the eyebrow or the lips, they should have some real (destructive) impact on those said eyebrow and lips. Make a deep dent or something, you know what I mean? He seems just still too handsome for someone so scarred.

But still, thanks for giving that man a distinctive face in my mind!

It's hard to see in a small picture, but the scars look scarier up close.  There are ways to make scars look deeply carved in, by shadowing and texturing the skin on either side, and I made the eyebrow patchy where scar crosses it.  But in low-res to fit the width of this forum, it's difficult to tell.  Admittedly, I could have made the scars even bigger, but Shallan's first impression of Mraize was "I think I know this guy" rather than "run away screaming".  And he is described as so charmingly affable, refined, and smooth that I figured that it was safer to go light on the scars than to go all the way into Uruk-Hai territory and make him completely disfigured.

 

Mraize's Scars

It was my impression of Mraize as easy to like that influenced how I drew him.  If I had read the book and thought he was evil or annoying like Roshone or Elhokar, I think I would have drawn him less handsome.  

I will probably go back to the picture later and fix a few things, and adjust the lighting so the scars show up better.  I have a habit of returning to older pieces months down the line, because immediately after finishing something, I am usually so tired of looking at it that I would do more harm than good attempting to fix it up.

 

 

On 17/07/2016 at 8:49 AM, CarolaDavar said:

Wow, the Maize and the teenager Adolin are great. Thanks for the tip, again. I will try to incorporate some of those things you told me about, and then i'll show you again. By the time I finish, I'll probably post it in the Stormlight Archive gallery. 

I'm so glad you think i've been getting better! You have no idea how much that means to me!

Good luck!!!
Use lots of layers over what you already have, so you can delete them easily if you mess up.  You can also do multiple paintings of the same thing, and compare different brush or lighting effects.

I think that anyone who looks at a lot of other artwork and experiments with recreating and combining what they've seen will inevitably improve.  It's just a matter of time.

 

 

22 hours ago, maxal said:

 I SO want to read teenage Adolin pre-Gavilar's death. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease Brandon. Just one quick snapshot, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease give us just a tiny bit of young Adolin. We never get to read characters such as him.

Dalinar pre-Gavilar's death was still Blackthorn Dalinar.  He would have been more willing to lay the verbal smackdown on disobedient children than the moral and lead-by-example Bondsmith Dalinar - not that Adolin and Renarin were disobedient children.  But at that point in time, Dalinar and Gavilar were exploring, and Elhokar was managing Kholinar.  If Elhokar managed to get into trouble with Roshone, then Adolin would have had an equal (non-existent) level of parental supervision.  

Well, something must have happened between teen Adolin and Tinalar to make him challenge for a Shard duel.

 

22 hours ago, maxal said:

As you once said, the beauty of SA is everyone is free to imagine the character as they see fit: your vision, my visions, other drawers visions, all are valid. I tend to picture him with a longer top and shorter side, but not with an undercut, but yours is great to. I mean, everyone loves vanilla ice cream: I love vanilla ice cream. I think the difference is the "statement". You hair do doesn't make one, as you say you designed for this reason, while in my own imagery, Adolin's hair are a statement by themselves. They are more crazy, but seriously, messy mop of hair could be a LOT of things.

As for Ann of Green Cables, well, I am Canadian. I would be denying my entire origins if I hadn't read every single book written by Lucy Maud Montgomery throughout my teenage years  So yes, of course, I have did read Ann of Green Cables and its sequels. All of them. Every single one of them. Emily of the New Moon was quite good as well, according to my 14 years old self, of course 

 

Is your mental image of his hair closer to this?  It's the hipster undercut but with less styling pomade and no shaved sides.  In fact, it's the same haircut as the classic vanilla Adolin hair in terms of length of and texture, just combed in a different way.  It's messier, but would you say it's stylish?

 

Adolin's Hair part 2

This boring hairstyle is in fact much easier to draw than other styles, since I can quickly shorthand it into "chunks" of hair when doing quick cartoon sketches or multi-panel comics where drawing in the individual strands will make you hate a character after a while.

And speaking of mental imagery, I asked a couple of other Cosmere fan artists how buff and tall they thought Kaladin was, and there was no consensus, because most people had no idea.  The whole "beaten and starved slave" thing makes a big impression on many, and that is why they draw Kaladin as skinny.  I say that end of WoR Kaladin could outbench Adolin with or without stormlight.

Gilbert is more of an Adolin, even though he has Kaladin qualities.  One of his main (and best) qualities is loyalty, and he loved Anne for years even when she refused him, and promised to come back and marry her after he finished doctor school.  Kaladin had opportunities to do what he dreamed of and what he promised Laral as a kid, but he's no romantic figure.  He is more like the Mr Darcy who is grumpy and rude to Elizabeth, because he thinks her family are all gold diggers.  Gilbert's story is way more romantic, especially because he's the childhood friend rather than the dark and mysterious shirtless Fabio that appears on the covers of cheap romance novels.  And you love hurt/comfort storylines, nothing wrong with that.  According to the laws of narrative causality, Adolin has to have a near death experience, or pass out after week on ridgebark, for Shallan to come to her senses and rush to his bedside. 

 

22 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin states, back in WoK, how everyone his age and everyone younger has been married for a while. He also states how appalled everyone is he has reached his 23rd birthday without a spouse. My thought are Dalinar got away with marrying old because he was the second son: the continuity of his bloodline did not rest on him. Unfortunately, Adolin is the heir which implies the pressure to have a heir rest on his shoulder only. We never see anyone angsting over Renarin not being engaged to anyone.

I also loved how Shallan wished her ordeal down in the chasm may prompt Adolin to be more forward with her and how disappointed she was it turned being a mere hug  How can people still think Adolin banged half the warcamp after that?

Regarding none of the Kholins angsting over Renarin being unmarried when Adolin can't land a wife - Adolin's mental monologue is aware that Renarin is weird to girls, but he and Dalinar don't angst over it, because it would require admitting that Renarin's habits are weird and there's something off about him that isn't just the blood weakness.  They know he has been diagnosed with epilepsy, but not the autism.

 

Quote

“I know,” Renarin said. His voice was measured, controlled. He always paused before he replied to a question, as if testing the words in his mind. Some women Adolin knew said Renarin’s ways made them feel as if he were dissecting them with his mind. They’d shiver when they spoke of him, though Adolin had never found his younger brother the least bit discomforting.
Chapter 12, "Unity", Way of Kings

 

Adolin is obvious unicorn bait, but I still think he has kissed at least a few girls.  He doesn't back off or push Shallan away screaming "GET THEE TO A NUNNERY, WITCH!" when she kisses him.  It's pretty clear that he enjoys it, and suggests that if he is too prude to make the first move, he wouldn't reject a girl that he likes (and he likes all of them, at least at the beginning of every courtship) if she makes the first move, when no one is looking.

For someone who slept in a cupboard and was abused and mistreated by his aunt and uncle his entire childhood, Harry is remarkably sane.  The treatment has nothing on Kaladin's slave life, but Harry was raised in 1990's Muggle England, and the life where a young boy is fed on his cousin's leftovers and sometimes forgotten about altogether (at one point Harry during summer holidays is living off snacks sent by owl) is extremely shocking.

Now that I think about it, young Kal's childhood moodiness comes from an internal and unconscious resentment of authority, which carries over to adult Kaladin and turns him into a surly, grumpy soldier.  As a kid, his unhappiness was not from  being forced to be a surgeon, because ultimately his parents weren't going to force him, but being told he has to be something and make something of his life.  He doesn't even know what he wants to be (before Tien's recruitment) but the thought of doing what he's told is something he dislikes, unless he personally agrees with the decision.

 

Quote

In that moment, Kal knew his fate had been sealed. If Brightlord Wistiow had demanded it, Kal would go to Kharbranth. He turned and walked from the surgery room, passing out into the sunlight, not saying another word to his father.
He sat down on the steps. What did he want? He didn’t know. That was the problem. Glory, honor, the things Laral had said…none of those really mattered to him. But there had been something there when he’d held the quarterstaff. And now, suddenly, the decision had been taken from him.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

YMMV if it's a personality trait or a character flaw.  Some people cheer on Kaladin's indepedence when he rejects expected social norms and does what he wants, and sometimes it is pretty cool, like bullying Gaz and Lamaril and organising Bridge Four into a team, but to me the same characteristic makes him needlessly abrasive.  Kaladin is no diplomat.  

And Kaladin's depression could be said to be a character flaw as well.  It is what limits his power, and combined with his internalised bitterness with authority figures, ended up stripping him of his powers.  It's not an external or narrative-contrived plot point to nudge him into self-realisation and character development, but rather something from within that pushes him into mental low points that he has to actively struggle out of.  If you are concerned that Kaladin is too overpowered, his depression could be the trait that is supposed to balance it out (it's up to your interpretation if it actually works, of course), the curse to his boon.  In fact, mental illness or having atypical thought patterns in most of the Knight Radiants we've seen so far might be the narrative solution to keeping the Radiants away from the label of "god modding", as RPers call it.

 

22 hours ago, maxal said:

Well I supposed Jakamav does own land.. I suspect the house lords which follows Dalinar all owns various land within the princedom: not every parcel belongs to Dalinar. The Kholins must have their own lands, but the rest must belongs to lords faithful to them. A Highprince can only be as powerful as his lord allow him to be. 

And a King can only be as powerful as the Highprinces allow him to be.  And that king is Elhokar.

Is suspect that in Renarin's life there were very few things he wasn't allowed to do, outside of combat training, and only because he might actually die if he has a seizure and gets hit in the head when he's not in control of himself.  And added to that, he has so few expectations placed upon him by his indulgent father that a suggestion that he do something with his life, like get a job as a citylord or ardent didn't come across as a genuine expectation, but a soft recommendation that he can just say "no thanks" to with no consequences.  Since Dalinar isn't giving him ultimatums, his impression of the situation is not incorrect.  I wouldn't say he looks down on the positions; I'm sure he's perfectly aware that they are respectable jobs for a highborn young man.  He just refuses them because they aren't the one thing he really wants.  Renarin would rather wash dirty dishes used by ex-slaves instead of being assigned a permanent desk job.

It says a lot about his character.  And what everyone, from the readers, and the characters like Sadeas, and the characters like Adolin, make of the whole thing says a lot about them too.

 

 

19 hours ago, Erunion said:

Don't forget - Renarin is a teenager. One who's been raised in a culture where he is surrounded by warriors, leaders, fighters. Where being a soldier is considered the greatest thing you can be. 
As the son of one of the most powerful warlord Alethkar has ever seen, his disability must be a constant source of embarrassment and shame to him. 

Is he acting the way he should? No. But he's acting the way most teenagers would under his circumstances. 

In Alethkar, there's no distinction of "teenager" as the interval period between child and adult.  Shallan and Laral, who are teenagers by modern standards, are treated as adults in their society, regardless of personal levels of maturity.

I think the "my life sucks baww" impression of Renarin's character stems from the fact that even though he is a legal adult, he has none of the accomplishments that society regards as what makes a man a man.  In the beginning of WoK, everyone is freaking out that Dalinar, the legendary Blackthorn has gone weak.  Sadeas makes pointed comments on him going weak.  Adolin is mentally panicking at the thought.   If you have an eReader and can search for the keyword "weak" it's all over those first chapters starting from Chapter 12, "Unity".  Renarin's entire life consists of being considered weak, with not even a glorious past to hold up to the critics.  And that is why some readers dislike Renarin.  His angst is justified, but to some people, it's just too much angst for them to stomach.  To others, it makes him endearing and relatable.  

 

 

 

Art Time

With all that discussion of Renarin, why not start with a picture of Renarin?

Truthwatcher

Spoilery title, hahah.   It's Renarin, his metal box thingy, and his spren Glys.

I draw Renarin as much younger looking than Adolin.  He's not as handsome, and I try to keep his features softer and more childish.

I drew Glys as something in between Pattern and Wyndle.  His "face" is like Pattern's, symmetrical and made of 10 overlapping glowing green leaves instead of Pattern's eye-twisting fractals.  He has floating tendrils and sprouty vines like Wyndle, but I took a lot of influence from the description of Ym's spren.  I have no idea what Ym is, but he's either Edgedancer or Truthwatcher with his healing magic, so I tried to include that. 

Quote

Something moved in the dimness to his right. Ym glanced in that direction, but didn’t change his posture. The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before.

It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows. When it moved again, those withdrew.

Ym brushed wooden scraps off the bench for later sweeping, then set the last on the bench near the spren. It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.

He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

Interlude 2, "Ym", Words of Radiance

Just imagine that in this picture Glys is whispering to Renarin, "Those crazy visions are what will come to pass unless you listen to me".  Renarin is creeped out but he can't tell anyone, and the only thing he can do is keep opening and closing his little metal box.

 

 

Stormlight Noir - Veil in Amaram's Office

After drawing Mraize, which was influenced by classic trench coat and tommy gun mobsters, I felt like the whole Ghostbloods storyline could fit well with a film noir aesthetic.  Lots of sneaking around at night, hats and trenchcoats, rainy streets and dramatic spherelight.  Replace spanreeds with typewriters and we'd have something awesome.

 

You think I forgot about the headband?

Remember that headband from Michael Whelan's first draft cover of WoR?  Kaladin remembers.

People think Kaladin is lanky-fit from his days starving as a slave, but apparently he is very muscular, which is hard to believe since you can't get huge muscles unless you are eating a lot of protein, which bridgeman gruel and soulcast stew doesn't really have. 

On another thought, how tall is Kaladin anyway?  If Rock is 7 feet tall, how tall is Kaladin?  How tall are Alethis?

For the purposes of convenience, I make Kaladin around 6'5", otherwise his head would be cut off by the top of the frame in group pictures.

On 16/07/2016 at 1:58 PM, esamitch said:

We sorta used eyeliner first so we could draw it out (we used a photo reference) before we did the sharpie. Unfortunately, it seems like the combo of baby powder and hairspray to set it isn't working all that well (Pinterest has FAILED ME) so we may have to do touch ups tomorrow...

I definitely don't think I'd be able to do on myself! Your design is awesome though and if you have an artistically proficient friend or family member you should totally go for it.

 

 

I ACTUALLY WENT AND DID IT.

 

 

I had my digitally drawn picture open on my screen and eyeballed it while drawing the guidelines in with a water-based red felt tip marker.  It was supposed to be washable.   I traced the red outlines with a Sharpie at first but it smeared too much, so I switched to a Faber-Castell permanent marker, which actually turned out to be better, with a finer tip, less bleeding, and a more opaque black.  I let it dry and rinsed my arm in water to wash off the red marker, but I couldn't get all of it off and I didn't want to scrub it and risk ruining the black lines.

I continued on with my day as usual, and had a shower and went to bed and when I woke up, it was fading already.

 

 

There's still a slight tinge of pink from the red marker, and the black ink is now grey.  If I wanted to touch it up, it would be much easier than starting from scratch since I just have to trace over the old lines.  I'm not sure if I want to, now that I know how high maintenance it is.

Well, it was an interesting experience.

 

Postscript: I showed my friends and they all said it looked fake. 

Did you freehand this or mark out guidelines before you started?  Whatever you did for the glyph worked, because it looks really great.

I really want to do this too (with Sharpies of course) just to see what it's like, but I'm afraid that my hands are too shaky and I'd have it on me for a month.

 

 

I'm really tempted.

On 14/07/2016 at 2:51 AM, Rasarr said:

It's not "disgusting", it's sweet! (unless you're sugar intolerant, I suppose). And I love the lighting in this piece.

Also, Adolin a la Pompadour killed me  It is now my personal headcanon that this is how Adolin used to keep his hair back in the day. 
"Dad, it's not a phase!"
*cue the Blackthorn shaving Adolin's head with a Shardblade*

I like to make my fanservice-y shipping pics as sweet as possible, because that's what fanservice is for. 

Oh man, Pompadour Adolin is great.  Because of this post, I had to draw this:

 

HEY, DOLLFACE!

 

He can make anything look good.

But Dalinar disapproves. 

Adolin:  Dad, look at my new jacket!  It's swell!

Dalinar:  First you wear grease in your hair, then you buy a leather jacket and listen to loud music all day.  Son, you'll be worshipping Odium by next week.

 

 

On 14/07/2016 at 4:37 AM, esamitch said:

Thanks for the compliments and the artistic advice @sheep! I appreciate it. I didn't have any sort of reference on hand when I drew the Shardplate (I was both without book and without internet I believe) so I expected it to be a little inaccurate. Just to clarify though, that's not bare skin in the gaps, it's more of an undersuit thing. I guess I should have made more of a difference between its color and the color of his skin!

Shading it in black or with blue would have made it clear that it was part of the Shardplate or part of the padding underneath.    It's kind of like those pictures of tennis players jumping about where they're wearing skin coloured tights underneath their tennis dresses and everyone on the internet is using their CSI enhance tools to zoom in and ogle.   

I think you did a great job for drawing armour without a reference.  Keep drawing; it gets less scary when you break it down into rectangular sections of arms, legs, and chest and draw it piece by piece.

 

 

On 14/07/2016 at 5:06 AM, Erklitt said:

Shallastick ?!?!?

That word alone really sent me rolling on the floor, laughing!

(And as a usually silent admirer of you art, @sheep, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for those special moments! My all-time favorites are still the "Let's draw... (K/S/A)" series - that was another ROFL moment.)

Ah, another lurker has been revealed.   Since it's usually the same people posting in this thread, I forget that there are other lurkers around reading all the crazy (and sometimes off-topic) things we post.  I hope we don't sound too crazy.

The strange thing is that I label the random sections at the end of my art dumps "Obligatory Silly Stuff" because I have a weird sense of humour and a lot of time the silly drawings are ideas that only sounded funny in my head -- that's why I call it "silly stuff".   I'm glad to see that other people think they're funny too.

And if there's an excuse for Shallan to draw shirtless Adolin, I think she would take advantage of it.

Just in case people were wondering what it looked like up close.

 

 

15 hours ago, CarolaDavar said:

@sheep thank you! I tried the skin tip you gave me (all the while deciding what a Soulcaster looked like), on a hand, and it is already 120 percent better than I used to be. Also. . . Could you perhaps look at this and give me some constructive criticism? (I live and breathe other artists' constructive criticism)

Oh wow, that work on the skin looks good.  Those brushstrokes show texture, and that is exactly the rough but realistic effect I was talking about -- perfectly smooth skin in a digital painting starts looking like one of those clothing store mannequins if you're too perfect with shading.

In terms of constructive criticism, I'd like to point out that due to the angle of the hand being slightly tilted, the gems should be slightly tilted away too, instead of facing the viewer face on.  If you taped a coin to the back of your hand and tilted it, you would see that the coin is an oval shape and only perfectly circular if you were looking at it directly. 

The gems facing away from the viewer should look something like this, with the back facets looking narrower than the front ones, and the curve of the settings wrapping around and being invisible from the back due to the angle of the gems. 

 

EXAMPLE

And some suggestions to make your painting "pop" and look more dramatic:  using more and darker shadows and complementing them with highlights in specific points will make your painting appear more three-dimensional.  Don't be afraid to experiment a bit and use a deeper brown in shadowed areas such as the place where the fingers connect to the palm, and highlight the highest points on the hand, which is usually the knuckles and the bones that connect them to the wrist.  The areas closest to the viewer are lighter, and the areas that are farther away, or are blocked from the light are darker.  And if you incorporate the background colour (the apricot-y shade) onto your subject, the result looks more atmospheric and cohesive. In the shadows I've used an apricot-y shade here and there.  If you held your hand on top of a piece of red coloured paper, there would be reflections of red on your skin where it is closest to the paper.  That's the effect I tried to replicate.

If you are having trouble colouring in a metallic gold object, such as the bands on the fingers and wrist, I've added a colour palette for you to experiment with.  Metallic objects reflect more than skin, so they have brighter highlights and reflect more of the surrounding colour.  Gold on a blue background would have a similar but cooler set of shading colours.

I hope this explanation was understandable; please ask if you want a clarification.  You've done a good job so far, it's seriously impressive work.  If you're drawing from life, you're getting pretty good at it, and when you do it enough, understanding and applying your knowledge on how light works becomes second nature.  It gets easier from here!

 

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

It was a serious discussion on a subject of the utmost importance  For my part, I tend to picture Adolin with the undercut upper hair in the picture but without the undercut  Exactly the kind of hair cut a boys band singer would have or yeah Justin Bieber  (BTW he is about Adolin's age so it isn't such as bad representation though google tells me he has changed his hair cut into something Adolin would totally not wear  The hair style I liked he once had seems to have bee a few years ago, so huh yeah he does look very young in those pictures, so you kinda have to age him by a few years, but it isn't so bad, hair cut wise).

From what I've seen, everyone seems to imagine Adolin's hair as way more fashionable than my version.  Long top, short sides, or undercut styles are very popular these days, but mine is the equivalent of vanilla ice cream.   It's not too long and not too short, not too old and not too young, fulfills the criteria of black and gold and kind of messy, and doesn't really make a statement.  I guess I am boring, because instead of a cool and fashionable pop star or soccer player's hair, I designed Adolin's hair to be a wholesome kid movie hero's hair, like Peter Pevensie from the Narnia movie series, or Taran from Disney's version of The Black Cauldron. 

Oh gosh, Gilbert.   If you haven't read the Anne series and like historical drama/romance/slice of life books, you might like it.  Gilbert is adorable and loyal and kind, but kind of stupid at how he shows it in the beginning.  He only called Anne "Carrots" and pulled her hair because he didn't know what flirting was.  If Mr Darcy is the Kaladin of romance novels, Gilbert is the Adolin.   And Anne didn't even notice it for years and years.

And Gilbo is Canadian, too.

 

Quote

I would say Alethi generally marry in their teens, so I do think they are expected to remain chaste until then. However, this expectation must not be withhold when it comes to older spouse, such as when Dalinar married Shshshshshsh. I don't think anyone expected him to be a virgin.

Adolin is one year away from how old Dalinar was when he met Shshshsh for the first time.  At this point in time, he might be considered an older spouse, or at least close to it.  The traditional age for being an "on the shelf" spinster was 25 in the old days.  I think that at his age, people would not be shocked or appalled to find that he is not a virgin.  Shallan didn't care about his playboy tendencies when the betrothal was arranged because it was only the marriage she wanted, and I don't think she expected unicorn bait on her wedding night.  But there is reason enough to suspect that she has revised her opinion on him.  He is very shy and doesn't like being kissed in public.   That's one of the things she wished for while she was in the chasm with Kaladin.

Harry was put in a bad spot by circumstances out of his control, because of Snape and Dumbledore and the prophecy.  He's the victim of the situation, and would happily have traded being "the Boy who Lived" for his parents being alive.  For that reason, I can forgive his moodiness in later books (being in the magical equivalent of high school with fellow high school students doesn't help) but Kaladin ... Kaladin was yearning for glory since he was a boy, and discontent with a comfortable life as the highest ranking darkeyed family in town because it was boring.  Kaladin thinks he's the lead actor in what is really an ensemble cast production, and the people around him are NPCs or mooks who are incapable or can't be relied on to take action.  Some are sympathetic, like Bridge Four and that guy Hobber who lost his legs, but they're still mooks.  That's why he think it's his job to save the girl, save the day, and save the world. 

Some people would say that you will only get disappointment if you expect realism in fantasy fiction.  But my opinion is that Kaladin has been set up since childhood at having a habit of excelling at whatever he tries to do, which is only balanced out by his really terrible luck.  If Kaladin was bad at things and also the recipient of the universe dumping chull dung all over him, he wouldn't be the type of protagonist people like and root for.  You hate the underdog characters, but the majority likes them, because they work -- they make stories fulfilling to most readers.  At least there is one thing that Kaladin is bad at, and that is making one liners.  I'll accept "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do" as cool because it's understated and mostly humble, but the whole "skies are mine" speech had me rolling my eyes all the way around. 

15 hours ago, maxal said:

I thought a land lord simply was the lord of a house who had sworn to serve under a Highprince which would make Jakamav a candidate for the next Highprince of the former Roion's princedom. To be of the 3rd dahn means Jakamav is very high ranked indeed and yes, he is the same rank as at least Renarin and probably Adolin. Renarin is not a land lord though, he is a prince. He does not own land nor do I think Adolin owns land. Dalinar probably owns land which should be passed down to Adolin upon his death. I am not sure what the second son gets, so yeah it does get confusing.

I assumed that being a landlord, Jakamav would fulfill the traditional requirements of being one, which is owning land.  They own land within a princedom, but the land is theirs (or their family's) and they pay taxes and send soldiers to the Highprince, but they get to make their own rules on their own land.  That's what I assumed based on how the Sadeas princedom worked, and how Amaram worked for Sadeas.  It would also explain why Alethkar was united only a generation ago.  All that autonomy for the landlords and the Highprinces makes it difficult to have an organised centralised government, which they don't have even now with most of the Highprince of Commerce/Information/Whatever jobs vacant.

Renarin was being pressured to go into the Ardentia through most of WoK.  He mentioned at one point that he didn't want that, and the other option was to be a citylord somewhere.  From that I am guessing he doesn't own land and is not expecting to get anything unless Adolin dies.  Yeah, the dahn ranking is a confusing thing when you have people like Jakamav who owns Shardplate, and holds land and the landlord title in his right, who happens to have the same rank as a second son who mooches off his dad and has no assets or prospects of his own.  I can understand why all the lighteyes would hate Adolin when Renarin collects Plate and Blade within a few weeks of each other.

 

 

 

 

Art time

Quote

Of the half-dozen or so people in the room, one drew her attention most. Straight-backed, with jet-black hair, he wore white clothing and stood in front of the room’s crackling hearth.

The man turned around, revealing light violet eyes and a face scarred by old wounds, including a cut that ran down his cheek and deformed his upper lip. Though he looked refined—holding a goblet of wine in his left hand and dressed in the finest of suits—his face and hands told another story. Of battles, of killing, and of strife.

This was not the messenger from Shallan’s past. The man raised his right hand, in which he held some kind of long reed. He placed this to his lips. He held it like a weapon, pointed right at Shallan.

Chapter 43, "The Ghostbloods", Words of Radiance

 

Character Design - Mraize

This one was a bit of a challenge since there was barely anything to go off.  But I read the chapter, and gathered my thoughts, and drew Mraize as a guy who is tough and intimidating but outwardly stylish.  Black hair, sharp white suit, scars.  My interpretation of his character was based on how he approached and threatened Shallan in Urithiru, and how he seemed likeable, polite, and civil when talking to her.    The result was drawing him as inspired by classic mobsters.  "Wouldn't it be a shame if your house burned down?" types.  Peter Ahlstrom said Mraize's nationality was Thaylen, but no one mentioned him having big white eyebrows, so I drew them to match his hair.  Maybe he trims them down and dyes them.

 

 

Mraize - Character Portrait

With a stylised Ghostbloods logo.  I'm guessing that this is what the shape of the triple diamonds looks like, but the arrangement of diamonds was never specified in the book.  He looks tough but Taln could beat him up.

 

Process pic:

Quote

I reworked the face multiple times because I couldn't get a good grasp of his features...minor characters are hard when there's not much to build on.

Let me know what you think of this character design.  I'm aware most people don't make clear mental images when reading, and the ones that do rarely do it for very minor characters who appear in like 3 chapters.

20 hours ago, Rasarr said:

@sheep, your art continues to be the awesomest (also, I'm not the one who asked about it, but thanks for pointers on painting skin!). And I absolutely adore your Jakamav design. *sigh*

I am glad people want to know about how stuff works!  I post process pics so you guys in this thread can see that cool arts start from very humble origins.  I don't feel like I'm qualified enough that my answers are the ultimate answers, but I can answer a question or two to the best of my ability.

 

 

20 hours ago, CarolaDavar said:

Ahem. . . Anyway. I love this. Your art is great and your ideas are both amazing and hilarious. Thanks for the tip! That will be really helpful!

I found an old example that shows the difference between airbrushing and textured painting. 

 

I think it illustrates the techniques much better than the hamfisted 2 minute job I posted earlier.  The first one is a sketchy, textured painting done with chalk brushes.  This kind of look has hard lines and exaggerates shadows, and gives a more stylised, storybook illustration type of effect.  The second picture is the first one redrawn from eye (not traced, so it's not exactly the same) with a combination of airbrush and hard round brushes.  The cheeks and chin are smoothed with airbrushes, and the nose and lips detailed with hard brushes.  This gives a soft and smooth appearance which is good for portraits and photorealistic copying.  

Brushes are tools, and tools aren't bad.  You need to keep working at it, so you can get better at using your tools to their full potential.

An example is this one that I drew around 7-8 years ago.

I used the airbrush to shade the arms and they look like tubes.  I used the dodge and burn tools to shade and highlight.  That's another tip digital painting - don't do that!  It looks bad on skin, it looks bad on cloth.  You think you have discovered the new pro-tip shortcut (that doctors don't want you to know about) but it's not a shortcut because it makes your paintings looks weirdly flat.  The hard way works the best way, sadly.  And now you know how long I've been level grinding to get to this point.  And I still think I can improve.

 

 

19 hours ago, esamitch said:

Somehow I missed this topic! A lot of my art is in the galleries, but I have some new things that I haven't uploaded yet, so I guess I'll add them in here! I don't have a lot of "scenes", but I'm working on it. 

Here are some of my newer pieces!

That Szeth one is awesome!  I feel so sorry for poor King Hanavanahananahanahaha (gosh I can't even remember how his name is spelt.)  It's so dramatic!  Everything Szeth does is so dramatic and literal overkill and you showed it really well.
As a note for the Shardplate, officially there are no gaps, and in between the big plates are small layered ones like scales.  The way your drew it looks like there's bare skin showing underneath (I don't know if you intended it for it to be pants).  So now I'm a bit concerned for poor Adolin's inner thigh area, the bits that aren't covered by the codpiece.  

 

19 hours ago, Hitoshizuku said:

Oh my god, @esamitch, that is an amazing Szeth.

Even if I must say I'm not sure what Adolin's hair is doing in the last drawing.

 

19 hours ago, esamitch said:

Thanks @Hitoshizuku!! He's definitely a hard one to capture...I'm glad you think I was successful! 

Haha my personal image of Adolin is him having sidecuts/undercuts on his hair, with cool designs shaved into them. I thought it would be an interesting way to show his interest in fashion, and maybe a more frivolous side, while still being acceptable for battle and court.

 

Everyone draws Adolin's hair a different way.  The description in WoK says it's a "messy mop of blond sprinkled with black" and it's vague enough that all artists take their interpretation of it, and I love to see how people do it differently.  It's one of the things I enjoy about the Cosmere fandom, next to everyone's designs for the Bridge Four and Kholin Army uniforms.  Michael Whelan drew it on the cover of WoR like a strange fusion of a utility jumpsuit and a Middle Ages doublet.  Mine is closer to a Napoleonic era army uniform.

@maxal and I had a long conversation a while ago about Adolin's hair , for artistic research only, of course.  That is why I came up with this handy chart so you can see what best fits your personal mental image of his character and appearance. 

 

THE OFFICIAL ADOLIN KHOLIN HAIRCUT CHART

 

The reason why I draw Adolin with the first style is because it's standard young man hair.  The "Bieber" makes him look too young, like a boy.   The "Dalinar" is the soldier's haircut to fit under a standard helmet and Adolin hated the standard uniform in WoK.  So something that is in-between fits him when he is referred to as "lad" or "youth" through all of WoK.

It's the same hair as Gilbert's from the Anne of Green Gables animated series.

 

 

13 hours ago, maxal said:

There are many reasons why people would go to the prostitutes, but my point is very few would give away their "first time" to one of those. It isn't so much about purity, it is about yourself. Would you get intimate, the first time with a complete stranger paid to do it to you? Adolin's problem isn't so much purity, it's the fact he never had a serious enough girlfriend to actually feel comfortable enough to even start to think about doing it.

Well, I'm not even going to ask what sort of strange things poppped into your mind.  I think my own imagination on that is more than enough.  And a whitespine named Toothless is so deliciously ironic and so cute that even hipsters who don't do irony even ironically would like it, because everyone likes the How to Train Your Dragon movie.  

Everyone values their purity differently, and it's down to culture and then personal preferences.  But generally speaking, for cultures where it is valued, it is more important for the woman to be pure than a man.  Since there's no way to tell for men, so it comes down to the honour system.  Alethi might value purity on wedding day for both bride and groom, but I don't think they expect it, not for a high ranking lighteyes that can get away with lots of things through connections.  So Adolin must be an odd one out in his society for his purity, even though everyone is supposed to be proper and reserved in public.  Dalinar and Navani are proper in public and he resents her trying to get close to him in WoK because it looks bad.  Makes you wonder what Elhokar is up to .  His wife lives in the capital and even if he doesn't miss her, he must be restless.

 

13 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Kaladin's skills, I am of the opinion he picked up everything too quickly, including spear fighting and bridge lifting, which is just bulk strength, really. That last one gives credence to my claim stating Kaladin isn't some skinny guy: he must have impressive upper body strength. opSurgebinding though brought us to another level entirely: only a few days and he beats up a more experienced opponent, even surprising him with his skills with the sword. The sword, really? He practiced twice with it. Adolin needed 17 years to reach his current level and he couldn't even land a blow on Szeth. Alright, there was this thing called stormlight, but still. Did Syl choose Kaladin for his combat skills? I do not know, but she was looking for a knight within an army, so maybe the thought crossed her mind. Shallan's skills are drawing is plausible for me: she has been drawing since childhood. I can actually believe she got this good, she had years to practice. Kaladin is a tougher sell, for me.

My thoughts on Sadeas is he didn't come with his Plate until his later years. When he killed Yenev, during this duel, the telling of this story made me think it wasn't a duel for Shards... They wagered lands and money, but Shards were never mentioned. Had Yenev have a Blade, Sadeas would have win it. Had Yenev no have a Blade and fight Sadeas with Shards, then Sadeas would have had no Blade to borrow as there is only one sets of Shards for renting. It just seems to me as if Sadeas didn't have his Plate back then. WoR doesn't give us the right sense, but winning Shards is extremely hard. Gavilar was willing to go to lengths to secure the Iriali's Plate which I think was meant for... Sadeas. In other words, I think "earning" his Plate has been so gruesome for Sadeas, he probably wasn't willing to wager it for a Blade. Duels for Shards are extremely rare, one every few years.

As I said, yes, you can have a receding hairline and grey hair at 20 (I sure had grey hair at 20), but for most people, it tends to happen at a later age. The fact Adolin identify Elit as "balding" indicate us he probably is closer to his thirties, if not above, than closer to his twenties. Of course, this isn't conclusive, but statistic wise, it makes more sense.

 

Harry was marked as the "Chosen One" from birth and Voldemort kept following around for years trying to kill him.  Kaladin chose himself by deciding that he had to be the one to stand up and protect everyone.  Some readers praise his willpower and determination but to me it feels like he has a martyr complex.  And his belief that he is responsible for everything and blaming himself if something goes wrong is ... tiresome .  I don't think Harry got that annoying, even if he was as blind and unobservant as a flobberworm.  

Oh man, have we derailed this into a "let's complain about Kaladin" thread?   I think most people who don't particularly feel an emotional bias towards Kaladin have criticised him for how fast he picks up Lashing skills.  And I totally agree, it's way too fast - but I accept it because it's part of narrative convencience, like a training montage in a kungfu movie where they play "Eye of the Tiger" and have the student break planks with his face in slow motion.   It doesn't make sense realistically, but if you get hung about it, you can't move on to the next chapter and enjoy the story.  Adolin couldn't land a blow on Szeth twice, but in the prologue of WoK, Gavilar hit Szeth a couple of times, but Szeth healed each time.  It has been commented in that duel with Resi (I think?) that Adolin is the best, better than Dalinar in his youth.  Adolin in top form without panic-mode would therefore be able to land a hit on Szeth, even though he wouldn't be able to kill him.  But of course he couldn't, because Kaladin needs people to protect.

So the big question (which probably won't be answered because he's dead) is where Sadeas got his Plate from.  If he won it from someone, then why couldn't repeat his performance?  Unless people refuse Shard duels with anyone who has won one in the past, because they don't want to lose.  I think Gavilar getting Plate for Sadeas of all people is a bit of a stretch.  Uncle Toh and Shshshsh wouldn't give their family heirloom to a stranger.  Shards are family heirlooms that go to family.  You can't just loan Shards and expect them to be given back once your son is old enough to hit the practice grounds.

Quote

“I will return to Alethkar,” Dalinar said. “Though I hate to leave our army here down a Shardbearer. Could I…but no, I could not give them up.”

“Of course not!” Adolin said, aghast. A Shardbearer, giving up his Shards? It almost never happened unless the Bearer was too weak and sickly to use them.

Chapter 52, "A Highway to the Sun", Way of Kings

 

And I would say Elit is around late 20's.  He hangs with the group of young lighteyes, including girls that Adolin dated.  It would be kind of weird for a 30+ year old man to be socially involved with young 20-something unmarried girls.  

 

13 hours ago, maxal said:

To have earn the title of "land lord" and to be of the 3rd dahn indicates he was born into his position, he didn't achieve it because he won a Plate on the field. Moash was made 4th dahn upon being given Shards, the 4th dahn, not the 3th dahn and he was asked to join an already existing house. Adolin said he could start his own, but details were scarce. Moash has not been given land... So all in all, Jakamav no doubt inherited his titles and him being the land lord as opposed to the son of a land lord means his father is probably dead. So huh, he's probably older than Adolin.

Is there a difference between having a house under a highprince's banner and being a landlord?  I don't understand the distinctions between the dahns and the requirements for each rank.  Jakamav is a landlord at Dahn 3 which is the same rank as Renarin.  Does Renarin have land under his own name?  Or does his rank just come from having a highprince as a father?  I don't get it, and it's confusing.

When Feather sees the Renarin picture she will die.

Quote

“Fine,” Adolin said, striding back into the room. “You. Moash, was it? I guess those Shards are yours, now. Congratulations. You now outrank ninety percent of Alethkar. Pick yourself a family name and ask to join one of the houses under Dalinar’s banner, or start your own if you are inclined.”
Chapter 66, "Stormblessings", Words of Radiance

 

 

 

In other news, I cleaned up, repainted and coloured a picture that has been sitting around in my art folder for a while after I abandoned it.  I posted it on Page 1 of this thread and wasn't happy with it so it got revised.  It's now slightly better, but I think my monitor settings are off because it's more yellow than I intended.  Oh well. 

 

 

Disgusting Shadolin Cuteness (pls close your eyes if you ship Shalladin or Shallastick)

Original pencil sketch

 

All of my sketches are messy as Braize.  I draw with red coloured pencil then go over with graphite pencil, and when I scan it in the red pencil lines can be removed with some easy digital editing.  I also adjust things slightly, moving and rotating lines around so things come out proportionate and symmetrical. The final piece looks a whole lot different from the original but the skeleton is the same.

How big is a Shardbearer exactly?  On Page 1, in the "Shardplate Proportions" picture, I estimated Adolin in Shardplate to be around 6'6"/200cm.  So yeah, I based the proportions on that.  And in Shardplate, when you touch things through your gauntlets, you can feel what you touch through the Plate.   Lesson 1 of Shardbearing is jumping off the roof, Lesson 2 is eating dinner, Lesson 20 is hugging someone without breaking them.

On 11/07/2016 at 3:20 AM, Rasarr said:

I've just noticed... I have a folder in my computer where I save the Stormlight fanart I want to keep, and today I've realized that half of it is sheep's art. 

I enjoy making character designs!  It's always a bit sad when I make one of a minor character with only a few lines of mentions and the next book adds new description that turns out completely different.  But until then, I love using my imagination and seeing other people's designs and how they imagine things.  For example, the Vorin havah - most people draw it completely differently, if they aren't following the Michael Whelan official endpaper illustration.  The safe sleeve goes from as formfitting as a sock over the hand, to as flappy as a kimono sleeve.

I have a folder of Stormlight fanart too...and like 90% of it is my own.

 

On 11/07/2016 at 10:10 AM, Erunion said:

One thing on the Shardhammer - it's probably more like a giant version of a medieval warhammer. So sharpened points, more proportional and balanced of a look. Still huge, but not THAT huge.... Doing some quick estimation math (0.4m*0.4m*0.6m), the hammer you just drew weighs over 1600 lbs, around 750 kgs..... 
So, uhhh... that would take 4 people to carry..... Or more. 

Other than that, AWESOME job

I intentionally designed it as a fantasy weapon rather than something that was historically accurate, because I gave up trying to do the maths ages ago, haha.  I try to be realistic when I can, for example, clothing designs that can feasibly be made without a sewing machine.  But when it comes to Alethi arms and armour, I threw up my hands and just went "it's magic".  I will agree it is useful to consider how much things weigh when depicting realistic weapons and their size relative to a human.  When I first tried drawing Shardplate, I went and looked for descriptions of its size to figure out how much extra height Shardplate gave a man.  When I saw the weight measurement, I was like "this can't be right" because it was in stones, and when converted, was enough to break a horse's back.  Ryshadium are magic horses, and maybe they can carry the weight because magic, but Elhokar, Sadeas and Renarin all have regular horses.  And these horses can carry them 4 hours or more over plateaus, fight, and then carry them back to their warcamps.  What.

So yeah, a smaller hammer would be more realistic.  Something like this, probably:

 

Jakamav's backup hammer

But artistic license plays a part, and I thought a larger hammer would look cool.  And Roshar seems to run off coolness when reality is just too limiting or too boring, like the whole stripy hair and spiritual DNA deal.  

 

 

On 11/07/2016 at 10:39 AM, maxal said:

Toothless? Really?  Poor Adolin. I think just as in our modern world, giving out your first time to a prostitute isn't quite everyone' first genuine choice: you have to be really, really, really desperate to do it. Those who seek prostitutes likely are married men unhappy about their marriage and/or their wife or men being separated from their wife for too long and not wanting to remain chaste while warring. Just as it is the case here, most people don't go to the prostitutes, but there are those who do. The fact Adolin would refuse such advanced isn't surprising, especially if he's never done it before.

Well, if you have a whitespine, and you're not going to leave it in a cage all day, you have to train it.  Any animal that you can apply a "How to Train Your X" tagline to is perfect for being named Toothless. 

Some people go to a prostitute because they just are bored, and it's a novelty thing, or they don't think much of "purity" and just want to get it over with so when they have to do it "for reals" they aren't fumbling around not knowing what goes where.   What we know of Vorinism is more about social hierarchy and Vorin Heaven than what they think of that.  But Adolin isn't religious, open prostitution is an established thing and not a novelty like in Las Vegas or Amsterdam, so purity must have some personal value to him.  It feels weird speculating on a fictional character's unicorn bait status.

 

On 11/07/2016 at 10:39 AM, maxal said:

The fact House Gryffindor won the cup several years in a row was a rather weak plot point: why did everything Harry touched have to be super successful? Because it was a kid's book and in a kid's book, the hero always saves the day. Quidditch was definitely designed such as to make Harry plausibly shine by giving him a role he needs no prior training to be good at. Arguably, being a Chaser, a Beater or a Keeper demands more training as seen when Ron tries to do it. 

Yeah, the reason why I dislike the Seeker position so much is that you don't really need to train with your other teammates to be good at it.  You just need to have good eyesight, decent flying skills, and stay out of the way of the other people.  An 11 year old boy can do it.   Compared to the other positions like Chaser, where you have to learn to fly formation with your teammates, everyone relying on each other and defending one another from the opposing team.  The Seeker just feels superfluous.

Here's a video of Chasers formation flying.  Team sports are about the team and about the audience who pay to watch.  Everyone wants to watch the formations.  The Seeker just circles slowly around the pitch until just before the end of the game.

That's why I thought the Keeper position would be better for Kaladin.  Sure, he picked up Surgebinding in two afternoons, but the non-magical things he does like the spear kata and bridge carries are done through lots of hard work and practice.  Is Kaladin's unrealistic skill level a result of Surgebinding being something that someone can be innately talented at?  Do spren look for people who have innate talent as well as following their moral codes and being broken?  Pattern wouldn't have come to Shallan if she couldn't draw.  But she wouldn't have gotten so good if she hadn't practiced since she was a kid.  But kids don't start drawing unless they like drawing.  And now it's a chicken or egg problem.

It's still weird that Sadeas, if he is physically capable of it, isn't participating in duels, since he is skilled and has years of experience.  It could be that Shardbearers over the age of 30 settle down and get used to their cushy Fourth Dahn life and don't care about the rankings for honour duels, and don't want to put that comfortable position at risk to get a Shardblade if just the Plate works well enough with hammer or grandbow.  But Sadeas is a highprince, and his Shardplate is his own and not a loaner, and he would still be highprince without his Shards so I have no idea why he hadn't gotten his own Blade years earlier.  Other than narrative convenience to free the bridgemen.   And balding can mean anything from shiny egg bald to hairline receding.  I know one guy whose hairline started to thin at age 23, and one guy whose hair started going grey at 20.  Receding hairline is still technically balding, but some people would just say that the person has a huge forehead since it's not totally obvious unless you know what you're looking at.

Dalinar and Navani are going to stay a couple because both of them are willing to and are going to put in the effort to make their relationship work, Radiant-ness or taboo-ness or not.  The reason why Radiant/non-Radiant couples break up, or never become a couple in the first place are for the same reasons why other relationships fail - because they're incompatible, uncompromising, uncommunicating, or a mix of all of these things.  Not because of the spren.  Radiants are human and magic powers in their spiritweb doesn't change that.

 

On 11/07/2016 at 10:39 AM, maxal said:

I love you Jakamav designs. Now should we play at how old is Jakamav? How old do you need to realistically be to be a land lord?

I assumed he was a few years older than Adolin, but not that old.  Maybe 25-26?  And there are no requirements to being a landlord other than having the right family or owning a Shardblade.  These lords hire stewards to manage their estates (Lin Davar had one, and how else would Alethkar be run when everyone is chasing gemhearts?) - and their wives do the paperwork.  They don't need to do any actual work, so they don't need to fulfill any requirements.  Moash, a darkeyed ex-slave, got to be a landlord.  Adolin could have been highprince at 23, and would have been hilariously out of his depth if he had to do the work himself, since he can't read. 

Jakamav couldn't risk his Plate in duels so who knows if it is truly his.  It could be that it's a family Plate and he's a landlord in name only.

 

 

4 minutes ago, CarolaDavar said:

I love your design of Jakamav. I've been trying to get a feel for how I imagined him for a long time now, and you just nailed it.

And the comic was hilarious.

Also, any tips on digital painting skin? I've been trying for a while

I just imagined him as really smug and cocky.  Like how Adolin presents himself in company, but with this guy, it's part of his personality rather than a public persona.  I think it's easier to get down the "feel" of a character if you can narrow them down to one or two main traits.  Especially if there's not much text-description to go on.

The important thing to skin is to understand the structure of the body.  The muscles over the skeleton, and the planes of the face.  Once you have the background information down, you can practice technique.  One thing I learned to avoid when I first started digital painting was over-airbrushing and using the "blur" tool.  It looks too artificially smooth and plasticky when you do that, like a really bad magazine cover featuring a person who has no pores.  Skin has texture, so don't be afraid of brushstrokes showing through.  It gives a bit of depth, and when I see them, I look at the brushstrokes, and think "I laid each one down, and it was on purpose".

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Skin texture - airbrush and hard round brush

It's a really quick and rough job, I know, but the smoothness of shading wasn't what I was looking for.  If you know what you're doing, airbrushing can look really good, but the effect it has is to give the impression of soft and smooth, perfect skin.  It's good for painting the skin of younger characters like children, or something ethereal like fairies and other things fantasy, but it wasn't what I was going for in this piece. 

A good tip is to figure out the capabilities and effects of different types of brushes and densities and combine them.  Hard brushes in high opacity for sharp edges, airbrush for smooth, and something in between to transition from one to the other.  There are plenty of guides out there that can explain better than I can, I think.

 

 

Art time

Candid Shardbearers:

 

Jakamav:  "The worst thing about Shardplate  is...

...what it does to your hair."

I wanted Jakamav's design to show him as a stylish but vain sort of person.  The type of person pre-WoK Adolin would have liked being seen with, part of the popular crowd who have reserved seats in the most popular wine bars, just like the "cool kids' table" in a high school cafeteria. 

 

 

Renarin:  "Dad, does this Shardplate make me look fat?"

"Is the Shardplate shrinking to fit supposed to feel this weird?"

"I think I have a wedgie now."

 

 

Just me playing around with colours and lighting and stuff.  Jakamav is in green and yellow because he sided with Sadeas, and I couldn't remember what colours Roion has, since that is Jakamav's official liegelord.  Renarin is in grey and blue because grey is the colour of Dalinar's unpainted Shardplate, and blue is the Kholin colour.   Gavilar and Elhokar's Plate is officially canonised in the WoR Shallan's Sketchbook, but Dalinar's Plate has no official depiction, unless you count the weirdness that is the Michael Whelan cover of WoK.  The in-text says that it's plain slate grey, no ornamentation, and has a high collar covering the neck.  So I drew it with fantasy-RPG-style aesthetics, with the big ol' pauldrons.  I watched the Warcraft movie not too long ago, so I was inspired.

Depending on whether or not Roshar has invented banking yet (maybe the Thaylens have it, if the Vedens don't, since Lin Davar's creditors seem pretty medieval), the Heralds could have made heaps off interest.  Since, you know, they're immortal and it's been 4500 years since the last Desolation.

Jezrien was a king before he retired.  Maybe he set everyone up with something when they abandoned their swords.  Maybe they have a secret stockpile of Shardblades and they auction one off when they're running low.

On 03/07/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

Adolin has never been close to a girl before and I fear he will never experience intimacy unless he passes his inhibition and he settles on a prostitute. Marriage seems heavily unlikely for him.

My daughter is suggesting: Pike, Piky, Monster or Warg. We should start a thread: how to name your Whitespine 

Adolin has had opportunities in the past to see a prostitute, but it seems he is uninterested.  Or maybe he doesn't want to embarrass himself in front of a "professional" and have the gossip spread to her next customer.  

Name it Toothless?

 

On 03/07/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

The scoring for Quidditch simply illustrates how little knowledge Rowling has of team sports... She designed a sport with the intended purpose of making Harry a hero, so she incorporated a position which enabled him to save the day, all by himself, despite being part of a team.

To be fair, Relis would be more like Adolin, another Chaser. After all, he was yet another very skilled duelist, if one with disputable morality. Elit certainly is a Beater considering he spend his entire duel trying to injure Adolin. Anyway, considering he was balding, I always took him as much older  I know you can go bald in your early twenties, but Elit just sounded old  

I absolutely hated Wit for hating Adolin and for being willing to hurt him in order to favor, yet another, Radiant. 

I do not know how I would feel about Kaladin flirting with Shallan... Part of me wants for Shallan and Adolin to work out, but the other part keeps on thinking it will never happen in a million year because nobody can compete with a Radiant.

Rowling wrote Quidditch as a sport to make Harry feel valuable and part of a team after being lonely all his life.  And that is why an 11 year old boy with no previous experience gets to be the Gryffindor team's star player and win the House Cup several years in a row.  Now I see how very Kaladin-appropriate it is.

Relis as a Chaser fits, I like it.  He would probably be afraid of Dementors and fall off his broom if they wandered into the Quidditch pitch.  I always thought Elit had premature balding.  It seems that people who fight Shard duels and go on the rankings are all young men with things to prove and nothing to lose.  As soon as their reflexes slow down, they don't want to risk the Shards they have and retire from duelling, which explains why Sadeas doesn't duel anymore even though he's been lusting for a Shardblade for years.  If he is older than the rest of the group, I'd think Elit is still under 30.  And high testosterone levels cause early balding, so that could explain why he is so angry and aggressive.

Wit doesn't hate Adolin.  He just thinks Adolin is just another puny mortal in a world full of insignificant puny mortal chess pieces.  Considering that he's thousands of years old and has seen everything, I interpreted the scene as his attempt at humour (YMMV if Wit is actually funny) because life gets boring when you live forever and have all the powers.  He's not favouring Kaladin or intentionally trying to hurt anyone.  He just wants to eat popcorn and laugh at people. 

Being a Radiant doesn't make a person instant boyfriend material.  If anything, all their duties and oaths them less desirable, because they have a spren partner who is always around talking to them, and they are too busy saving the world to spend time going on dates.   Dalinar isn't going to dump Navani if another Radiant pops up.  And Navani isn't going to get jealous if Dalinar the Bondsmith might happen to work with other Radiants who happen to be female.

 

 

 

On 03/07/2016 at 5:20 PM, FeatherWriter said:

That image of Syl sitting on the end of Kaladin's spear may be one of my favorites of all time. I love the flowing Rapunzel hair, it's perfect!

I imagined Syl was like Tinkerbell from Peter Pan when I first read WoK.  It was easier to picture windspren and spren in general if I imagined them like magical sidekick pets that Disney characters have, like Mushu or Iago, because I was a noob who didn't know what Realmatic theory was and the idea of physical manifestations of concepts was just too weird to grasp the first time around.  That first impression sticks around forever.

 

 

Art time

 

This is an older piece that I drew as a companion piece to "Eshonai's Victory" from a couple of pages ago.  I intended to do it in a hypercartoon style to match Eshonai's but changed my mind and went for something more dramatic, because this is one of the most dramatic scenes from the book and it really sets the tone of the series.

 

Quote

Szeth screamed, kneeling, infusing Stormlight into the wooden balcony, Lashing it downward. The air frosted around him. The tempest roared, traveling down his arms into the wood. He Lashed it downward, then did it again. He Lashed a fourth time as Gavilar stepped onto the balcony. It lurched under the extra weight. The wood cracked, straining.

The Shardbearer hesitated.

Prologue, "To Kill", The Way of Kings 

Szeth's Victory

 

Extended cut (you have to keep scrolling forever lol)

 

It's interesting, because it's the first time Shardbearers are introduced on-screen, and the impact is like POW!   And then everyone who read it had to wait until WoR before they got to see an official depiction of Shardplate. 

Quote

Another figure stepped from the king’s quarters; he wore glistening blue armor made of smoothly interlocking plates. Unlike common plate armor, however, this armor had no leather or mail visible at the joints—just smaller plates, fitting together with intricate precision. The armor was beautiful, the blue inlaid with golden bands around the edges of each piece of plate, the helm ornamented with three waves of small, hornlike wings.

Prologue, "To Kill", The Way of Kings

 

Close up - Gavilar in Shardplate

 

 

Process pic:

 

 

This came from the movie posters thread, Jasnah Kholin in a minimalist-style artsy abstract poster.

 

Words of Radiance - Jasnah Minimalist

 

 

I really liked the design.  There was something really epic about it and I wanted something worth printing an actual poster for, so I painted it.

Words of Radiance - Jasnah Kholin illustrated

It was a culmination of a lot of ideas and thoughts I had floating around.  I took my old character face design and costume design, and the Soulcaster design, and what I thought Ivory would look like as a Shardblade, and melted it together.  The polestone/gemstone of Elsecallers is Zircon and their essence is Oil, so I drew Jasnah's theme colour as yellow.  But I have no idea because zircons come in all sorts of colours... 

 

Close up - Jasnah's Soulcaster

You may be wondering why I made Jasnah's nails red.  Well, in-canon, Jasnah is very glamourous and makes an effort to present herself well.

Quote

She wore a beautiful dress, deep blue with golden embroidery. Her sleek black hair was done in braids and pierced by six thin golden spikes; her cheeks glowed with blush, her lips bloodred with lip paint. She stood out in the white room like a flower upon a field of barren stone.

Chapter 48, "Strawberry", The Way of Kings

Everyone I know who bothers to do the full face of makeup doesn't skip the manicure.  And long nails (not the Lana Del Ray plastic claws) make her seem more elegant and refined and definitely not someone who works for a living.  Alethi ladies only need to do one hand, so it's half the price of a full set.  

Jasnah is the Miranda Priestley of Alethkar.

 

Process pic:

 

Movie poster version:

 

Speaking of movie posters, how about this?

 

Stormlight - Team Adolin vs Team Kaladin

I always wondered why the Twilight movie was so blue, but the New Moon movie was yellow.  

Here's the non-parody version:

(Shardblades are described as silvery but I colour Adolin's Shardblade as a green-grey instead of straight grey because it's an Edgedancer's blade. )

Adolin and Kaladin

 

Shattered Plains - alternate background

Probably makes a better poster...

 

Process pic:

The first sketch always looks like absolute chull dung.  I move arms and fiddle with the pose and proportions a bit because it's easier to do it in the sketch than try to fix a messed almost finished painted picture.  That Shardblade is huge, man.

I hate colouring Adolin's hair!!!!  AHHH!!!!

 

And no for something different...

Character Design - Rock the Pacifist

For some reason, everyone images Rock the same way when reading about Bridge Four. 

I always thought that for someone who says he's a pacifist, he's pretty good at using pointy things with sharp edges.

Process pic:

That first sketch ahhahahhahh

 

Character Design - Jakamav

He doesn't get much pagetime or description, but since he's a clotheshorse, I wanted to try designing some lighteyes' fashionable clothes.  It's something sort of military-inspired but definitely not a uniform, with an Asian-inspired silk tunic with frog buttons and a silk scarf  around the waist where a side sword would hang.  The jacket is influenced by the "fashion folio" coats from WoR.  And I added a Shardhammer, because I don't think anyone has drawn it before.  It has a haft as thick as a man's wrist and takes two men to carry.  So I went for something that's RPG-huge.

Quote

Both of the other men at the table wore the sort of outfits Adolin’s father frowned upon. Short jackets over colorful silk shirts. Toral wore a thin yellow silk scarf at the neck and another around his right wrist. It was quite fashionable, and looked far more comfortable than Adolin’s uniform. Dalinar would have said that the outfits looked silly, but sometimes fashion was silly. Bold, different. There was something invigorating about dressing in a way that interested others, moving with the waves of style. Once, before joining his father at the war, Adolin had loved being able to design a look to match a given day. Now he had only two options: summer uniform coat or winter uniform coat.

Chapter 58, "The Journey", The Way of Kings

After finishing WoR, I kept thinking what a sleazy friend Jakamav is, so I drew this (really really stupid) comic:

 

Jakamav the sleaze:

...I think it was only funny in my head.

Jakamav gets a ponytail because Sadeas has long hair and everyone knows Dalinar doesn't approve of long hair since it's against the Codes.  It must really sweat up the inside of a Shardplate helmet, though.

On 27/06/2016 at 3:36 AM, maxal said:

It is in part the reason why I love Adolin so much: he and I are very similar. It is also why I feel, at times (and perhaps wrongly) I can understand him or visualize how it feels for him. I know what it feels to be griped with emotions you have a hard time controlling, I know how it feels when the inner cup fills up too much and I understand anger. I understand anger is not always evil, it is often needed and while it is a powerful motivator, it also is a difficult beast to tame. I understand emotions, the ones which puts words into your mouth and which gives you the inner feeling you are totally justified in your rant. It probably is why I yearn to read more Adolin: he is a character I can connect with on a personal level which is not something I can say about the other characters.

When I speculate or predict future happenings, I speculate and I predict future happenings: it remains a prediction. Others can either take it or leave it, but it remains predictions. I typically look into a given character's personality, events in his life and how he may evolve based on them. I seriously dislike the term "trauma stick": my wishes are not to watch characters suffer uselessly, but to give them the most significant character arc possible within the realm of the active story. I have no desire to recreate Fitz stories which were rather depressing and unsatisfying based on their lack of ending nor do I wish SA was a single-POV story focusing solely on Adolin. I love multi-POV stories because they offer a greater variety of characters and it changes the viewpoint from time to time. I simply wish for Adolin to inherit a satisfying character arc, one befitting the character I have been able to read so far. I feel he is a character with a story to tell and he has the potential to grow with it: I want to read it. I want him to have enough page time to make this story fulfilling. In other words, I wish for Adolin to move onto one of our main protagonists because I sincerely feel this is where he belongs: his voice is unique enough and his character is interesting enough for it. This being said, a good character arc does have some trauma to it: Kaladin's arc has trauma and so did Shallan. Those two characters arc are at least as dramatic as Fitz's entire story. The main difference in between Kaladin and Fitz arc is I can expect Kaladin's to perhaps not end so bad, but I disagree Brandon cannot be sadistic nor do I think Hobb is sadistic. She enjoys putting her characters into hopeless situations, so does Brandon, but Brandon makes his characters succeed more frequently while Hobb reserves success for the very last pages of her book. 

 

It seems like a strange thing to me to choose what books to read or media to consume based on how closely the protagonist resembles me in personality.  But I guess that is part of the differences between people, what they prefer, and what process they use to decide what they will read, and what they will like.  For me, actively looking for books for similar personality characters, or reading into characters in series I’m already reading in order to find mutual experiences or character traits is something that I don’t think I’ve done more than a few times.  That is the reason, I think, that explains why people don’t understand what you see when you write essays or speculate, and even when you explain, they still don’t see it.  And in some instances, I can be that person, because when I read fantasy novels or fiction in general, I enjoy reading characters that don’t resemble me in any way, because it’s fantasy – you can be anyone and anywhere if the author is skilled enough.

I actually had a think about the books I’ve recently read, and the reason why I liked them or didn’t like them.  I think it’s a good exercise for a person to do, when they want to understand their consumption habits in order to narrow their preferences or at least write a review.  I find story fulfilling if the world is thoughtfully built and carefully crafted, or the characters are well-fleshed out and believable.  If the characters are flat, then the world building must be good, like in science fiction – space operas use planet scale or world building, and the characters tend to be an ensemble cast with regular casualties.  If the world is flat, then the characters must be human and sympathetic, like in urban fantasy which is set in modern Earth, and the author often expects you to know what it’s like already, so doesn’t bother describing environments or social customs.  If the books fail to meet my standards for world and character, and are poorly written (bad prose, plot holes, can’t suspend disbelief) they get dropped.  And even if they meet the requirements for being readable to me, sometimes I find that they are not completely enjoyable.  The reason why I like Brandon more than Hobb is that Brandon’s multiple PoVs and plot threads tie up in the Sanderson Avalanche, or “convergence”, where everything comes together in a satisfying way.  Hobb doesn’t give me that until the end of the third book of her trilogy, and at that point I’ve been strung along for so long that it doesn’t feel completely satisfying.  And this is why I’m very wary of multiple PoV stories, because it takes a high level of writing and plotting skill for an author to match conflict to closure in a way that balances neatly – too much on either side and it becomes unfulfilling, or seems a Deus ex Machina. 

It comes down to narrative pacing and preferences, I guess.  Brandon guarantees a bit pacing payoff in the form of the Avalanche climax at the end of every book, for every major character arc, while Hobb dangles it on front of you for two and a half books and gives a bittersweet ending at the end of the third.  Spend too much room developing and deepening the plot conflict, or expanding on the characters’ quirks and personalities, and you will have less room to actually move the plot along.  Novel writers get more leeway in their pacing and world building, but in short stories and novella writing, you don’t mention details unless you are going to reference it again later on.  Unless, of course, you are deliberately subverting expectations with a red herring when writing in the mystery genre, or experimental literary writing. 

And that is why I presume Adolin won’t be getting flashback sequences.  He may be an important character two books in, but if he isn’t getting the “star treatment” with his own book, it gives the impression that he will not be a major character throughout the 5 book front half of the series.  Adolin’s character was used as a narrative tool to contrast with Dalinar in WoK and Kaladin in WoR, and if his appearances were thrown in, it is possible that Brandon didn’t think it would affect the long-term storyline across the whole of the series.  So apart from doing things in the “close focus” like killing Sadeas and leading armies, it would be safe to assume that Adolin won’t be doing “big picture” things like saving everyone in Roshar, worldhopping with Hoid, or becoming Odium’s champion.  What backstory of his that is explored will only be dropped in bits in pieces that are relevant to the main storyline, and nothing more.  It would be similar to what was revealed of Teft and Moash’s pasts – Teft was the one with the crazy cultist parents, which explains how is so knowledgeable about Surgebinding, which is taboo when Radiants are considered evil, and Moash’s dead grandparents who died because Elhokar was being a manchild.  Each reveal explains why a character’s personality is a certain way, so their actions are justified within the story – but since they are not major characters, they don’t get extra paragraphs or chapters devoted to them, because then you’d be wondering if they’re important, or if they will become significant players later on.  And if they don’t, it would appear like a buildup with no resolution, or a failure of pacing. 

So Adolin not getting flashbacks may seem like a disappointment, but that doesn’t mean he won’t get his character development coming full circle.  Moash, a minor character, is someone who most people expect will have a change of heart, or go full bad and get dealt with in a satisfying manner (if you like tough guy fights and one liners).  Based on the page space spent on Adolin, it would be a failure of pacing if there was no resolution for him.  I do not doubt that Adolin won’t get his closure, because Brandon is too skilled and aware not to deliver on that, even if it might take 10 years to get there.  It’s just that his past that will probably stay unrevealed when Brandon plans out his books with word limits in mind, and from what has been happening in-story, the consequences of Adolin’s present actions have more relevance to the plot than the person he once was.  There was some of the “old Adolin” in WoK, when Adolin mentally disagreed with most of Dalinar’s ideals – for instance, when he admires his own Shardplate which is painted and has decorations bolted on, and compares it to Dalinar’s plain grey Plate, the only plain one in all of the warcamps.  But in the time between releases, there’s always writing fanfiction or speculating.  At least the benefit of Adolin being demoted to supporting cast is that he will never get a book cover featuring him.  Your mental image will never be destroyed by high fantasy cover artwork where he is in a cheesy superhero pose wearing a hideous headband that does nothing but look atrocious.

The reason why I seem so dismissive of speculating – and I’m not trying to demean you or your character analysis – is that at this point in time, years from the last release in the series, and years until the next one, most of the low hanging fruit in terms of fan theories have already been picked, so what people are throwing out these days are theories that are just way out there.  I think you would call them “thin air” speculating, and you know what I mean, the ones where Kaladin’s father is secretly a Herald, and his mother is a Returned from Nalthis.  And Tien’s body was taken from the battlefield and he was secretly inducted into the Skybreakers.  These are the types of theories I dislike, because it’s not far from grasping for straws.  Brandon is fond of twists, but he tends to do foreshadowing before the reveal.  I’m not being maliciously disparaging of speculation, just these types, which make me roll my eyes, because occasionally there are good theories, thoughtfully explained with justified reasons supporting the author’s belief.  The ones I dislike are the ones where instead of proof or quotes, the author of such a theory just says “WOULDN’T IT BE COOL IF IT WERE TRUE”.  Yes, maybe it would be cool, but is there more substance than coolness value?   In books with flat worldbuilding and cardboard characters, I will keep reading and suspending my disbelief if the writing is done humorously tongue-in-cheek.  I think thin air theories are acceptable if they are funny.  And anything involving the Stick automatically becomes unfunny.  (I think Brandon’s April Fool’s short story featuring the Stick made it seem like it was a significant character (is it even a character?) but in reality it was only a couple of sentences in WoR, so can people get over it already!) I know I sound salty.

I also think that people on the forums who are so fixated on being 100% canon-compliant that they demand quotes and page numbers for every assertion posted by other people can be pretty rude.  And if rude is a strong word, then I would call them unpleasant.  I like quotes because I refer to them all the time when I sketch and draw fanart, and it makes me feel satisfied when my illustrations match the description; it’s like I hit the bullseye when everything is neat and correct.  To me, it’s fun.  However, when people who post get verbally “attacked” by others who demand quotations, that is not very fun.  Though I enjoy quotes, I know that not everyone cares or enjoys citing every sentence they write, and fiction and forums should be about what you enjoy, or else why bother?

I’ve been trying to think of stories with characters similar to Adolin, but it gets difficult when it has to have a sociable, extroverted, preferably male protagonist with character development, be a fantasy, preferably a completed series, and preferably a series with multiple viewpoints.  (That last one is difficult as any multi PoV series with an arrogant patrician tends to have other characters who are more humble and lower-ranking, often becoming Underdog Saves the Day protagonists.)  I think finding similar stories comes from putting trope labels on either the character or the plot, or both. Would you read an “Arrogant Patrician” type character who learns humility in a “Fall From Grace” style plot that is either self-inflicted or caused by some outside event, like being shipwrecked or kidnapped?  The only examples I can currently think of are scifi or historical, and they explore the world more than the characters.  And disappointingly, the characters turn out to be more character archetypes than fleshed-out characters.  The fantasy ones I can find just tend to be re-tellings of Beauty and the Beast in a different setting, and a romance plot that often has a female co-protagonist who is so generically beautiful and innocent that everyone falls in love within one chapter of meeting her.  “Fall From Grace” style plots do tend to be predictable, because it is expected that the main character earns their way back through lots of hard work, or learns a lesson if it was self-inflicted.  It is down to the author to make the journey enjoyable and entertaining, since the destination is going to be the same every time. 

 

 

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Alethi are meek: they do not express any outward emotions. They are naturally reserved, reacting stoically to insults, not reacting which is why most of the young society likes to taunt Adolin. He reacts. He bursts out. As Sadeas put it, he has little control over his emotional response. You see no other lighteyes publicly calling others "coward" or forming fists ready to strike or rushing up in the middle of the king's counsel because they can't keep themselves under control. He may be the odd one out, but he remains a very expressive young man. The map scene you were referring to was very, very meek, IMHO, considering the circumstances. It was a first time for Adolin, a first time when he had so much emotions, he had to let them out. If we look closely at what triggered his response, it wasn't much: simply believing his father may be going crazy while being refused to have the discussion he needed to have. Five times he tried to broach the subject, in a calm manner, with his father and five times he was turned down. Then he exploded. If this is how he responds when his father refuses to acknowledge his visions may be damaging, how is he going to react upon the events of WoR? His circumstances are much more dire now than they were early in WoK: this will add up and he will explode again. Emotional people just don't burst out once and then learn to be meeker, it isn't out emotive responses work. They burst, then they burst again up until they learn control. Adolin is leagues away from even starting to learn control: his only control mechanism has been his brother and his father. External control, not internal one. 

 

Meek would be the wrong word – the dictionary defines it as “shy” or “submissive”.  I don’t think the warlike Alethi would be described like that, at least not the lighteyed upper classes.  They would be accurately described as aloof, and being seen as reserved and haughty in public makes them appear dignified and leader-like in front of other lighteyes and the darkeyed lower classes.  In a society with a rigid social hierarchy, people are more aware of their place in it than they are in the modern day, which is why Kaladin is such a freak.  He is supposed to speak when he’s spoken to, but he doesn’t.  Even though Alethkar has a lot of Asian influences, I sense some Victorian-era British prudishness in lighteyes’ sense of propriety.  Men can visit brothels if they want, and no one blinks an eye, but it’s shocking for a lighteyed girl to kiss her potential future husband on the cheek in public.  It seems like having a stiff upper lip is the Alethi way, and being stoic and in-control all the time is how you display leadership qualities.  Since Dalinar’s visions cause him to hit the ground and start twitching, to other people it looks like he is losing control of his body, and that makes Jakamav and Sadeas believe that is enough to make him unworthy to be a leader.  It must be immensely restricting for Adolin when his whole life he is taught that his natural response to stressful situations is wrong, and not what real men do, or at least not what real Alethi do, when all he is doing is feeling feelings.  Being a “real Alethi” must be a stressful situation in itself for him, since he has mentioned that people regularly comment on his hair, and tell him that his bloodline is impure.  Self-deprecation for humour often is a way people deal with insecurities, and Shallan does it all the time.  Honestly, if Shallan was more self-aware and perceptive she would have been able to tell that Adolin is not as happy as he outwardly presents.  But she tends to focus on her own problems and only the very un-subtle gets noticed, like Kaladin publicly being a jerk.

You could say that Dalinar is partially responsible in training Adolin to be the kind of person who won’t adapt well to changes like the return of the Radiants.  I would add that even though Dalinar holds some of the blame for emotionally stunting his son and controlling him to the point where he feels uncomfortable accepting the responsibilities of independence and what passes for adulthood in Alethkar – Dalinar didn’t do any of this on purpose.  He thought what he was doing was for the greater good, and it was changing his son into his own conception of what he considered a fair and worthy leader.  And before the whole “Desolation” thing, before the visions, all Dalinar expected was that Adolin would eventually become Highprince after him, not be involved with supernatural conspiracies or saving the world with taboo magics.  If the world went along according to plan, with Adolin inheriting, would you say that Adolin, without the outside plot-induced stresses, would be perfectly capable of holding his own in such a world?

Hm, maybe rebellious is too strong a word, but Adolin appreciates having a choice, even if he does end up choosing the option that everyone wanted him to pick.  Hence his uniform being more fancy than everyone else’s, and his duelling methods being unorthodox, using wrestling moves instead of the Shardblade-only combat approved by the Highjudge.   I do not see him ever liking being forced into an ultimatum, because it has the potential of forcing him into a situation where he is completely unprepared, eg, when he fights Szeth both times and has trouble deciding if his life is worth more than Dalinar’s.  Still, freedom of choice is something I imagine Adolin values a lot, because it gives him the security of knowing that he is his own man, which he projects in public, even though some part of him must subconsciously identify himself as his father’s son.  He makes a big deal of his having his choice of wife, courting a new girl every 2 weeks or so, but inwardly, he wouldn’t mind it if he had a formal arrangement with just one girl.  Those thought patterns are very strange and contradictory to people outside the personality type, I guess.  But choices, actions, and consequences I suspect will make up a lot of Adolin’s character development.  And ultimately, Adolin is responsible for what he does, not Dalinar, who formed the framework of his morality, but doesn’t make the decisions.  Dalinar isn’t solely responsible for Adolin turning out the way he is.  When Adolin was a child, his father was away conquering Alethkar, and Adolin didn’t get the join in the fighting until the War of Reckoning.  Before that, it’s assumed he spent his days training in the company of his mother (before she died) and Renarin.  And based on what is mentioned about Shshshsh, she doesn’t seem to be a bad person.

 

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“Origin of the Makabaki,” Renarin said. “Mother told me that story when I was a child.”

Chapter 61, “Right for Wrong”, Way of Kings

 

Who knows, maybe it’s Shshshsh who unwittingly influenced Adolin into becoming an insecure, overstressed daddy’s boy.  That could be a real theory there, since from what we know of Shshshsh hasn’t been that flattering of a description – Navani doesn’t think she’s clever, and since she was dragged along by her brother to a foreign land, I don’t think she can be considered a strong-willed, self-confident and assertive type of person, even if she is kind and well-intentioned.  I don’t think she was the one who stole the Shardplate from Iri, and she is definitely not the person who came up with the plan to carry it to Alethkar and arrange for political asylum through a strategic marriage.  She could not have been a good role model for young Adolin, if he was left alone with her for years while Dalinar was on campaign with Gavilar, since her whole life, like the lives of high ranking women, was to be a glorified secretary/bureaucrat who shuffles papers in support of a husband who makes the decisions.  She, like Queen Aesudan, would be expected to “run the farm” and play a support role to her husband, if he was away.  I do not think she is the type of character with the political acumen and dominant personality to demand equal status in a relationship like Ialai Sadeas.  Ialai breaks conventions and eats men’s food at the men’s table.  Shshshsh goes along with her brother’s plan to marry her off for political protection.   Adolin is follows the rules and remains observant of social conventions.  He doesn’t even realise it until he meets Shallan who does the completely unexpected.

Alternatively, it could be kids his age who instilled in Adoiln the impression of being inferior because of his foreign and impure blood, as little kids on the playground or training arena tend to do, and young Adolin developed into a young adult who acts arrogant in public to compensate.  Or it could even be the rigid Alethi society where the Asian concept of face is held to utmost importance, and any display of emotion is a sign of weakness that causes sharks to circle, because Alethis can be petty and cutthroat.

I would be hesitant to say that it’s all Dalinar, because before Dalinar got his visions – I’m not sure about the timeline on this, so I’m assuming they started a year or two before the events in WoK, he was still mostly Blackthorn and universally lauded as an Alethi hero.  In that period, Adolin’s posturing and hotheaded reactions to goading wouldn’t have gotten him into much trouble other than a disadvantaged duel or two.  I’m still not sure why Dalinar banned duelling for officers if Adolin in WoK was still duelling for honour rather than Blades (with Sadeas, Elhokar and Dalinar commenting on how good he is, since he comes out untouched), if the whole purpose of the ban was to prevent potential injuries.  It wasn’t until Dalinar got really into the Way of Kings enough to speak the words and get the visions that he considered paths other than standard lighteyed Alethi authoritarianism and being a backseat autocrat.  So it could possibly be argued that Dalinar’s negligence with regards to Adolin’s training and education rather than heavyhanded-ness that caused Adolin to go off the rails at the end of WoR.  Everyone was so involved with their own problems, and no one really communicated – the scene where Dalinar wants to abdicate and Adolin starts yelling at him is a prime example.  They don’t exactly resolve their disagreement because of stubbornness and plot-induced convenience.  “Do your sons mean so little to you?”  I really wanted an answer to that question in WoR.  What I’m really trying to say is that it could be Dalinar’s recent flip-floppy behaviour from Blackthorn to Proto-Radiant, from “NO DUELING” to “Win me Shards, son” and other events that happened in the background, like Szeth’s assassination attempt, that set routine-oriented Adolin off, rather than his father being too controlling.  And in the end, it was his own choice to go off the deep end, since it was confirmed that it wasn’t Odium controlling him.

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The look of utter shock on Sadeas’s face amused a part of Adolin, the very small part that wasn’t completely, totally, and irrevocably enraged.

Chapter 89, “The Four”, Words of Radiance

Adolin has to have some awareness and control if he can think that, and spout out a one liner before knifing Sadeas.  He is the one ultimately responsible for his actions, not Dalinar.  Even though Dalinar will take it personally, and if he thinks Adolin is a failure for doing that, it is because he failed his son. 

I like characters having a sense of agency, and to blame their decisions on someone else is kinda disappointing in a narrative sense.  Of course things aren’t that clean and clearcut in real life, but fictional character motivations are all down to perception and interpretation, and I prefer to see it as an action Adolin did for himself, with the added bonus of protecting the people he loves, rather than an explosive tantrum of repressed daddy issues.

 

 

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Doing as you say would involve quite a bit of time: I do not have the time to re-read formally beloved stories. Even WoK and WoR, I haven't re-read entirely. I tend to leave them in the bathroom so it allows some time to re-read parts of it but a full re-read it not something I usually do.  And I do use up the dictionary, but thewe have re is just a way into my writing which doesn't sound quite right. I have ideas, but I can't put them convincingly into words, not as I wish I was capable of doing. The fic I had in mind ends with Adolin actually climbing the "Radiant tower" after having refused to climb it before because he wasn't "one of them". He isn't a Radiant (not yet), he hasn't revived his Blade (not yet), but he has found its name and he is bringing it to the top of the tower. In other words, he has started his journey, but it will be a long one. 

I thought Ender's Game was fine, but not extraordinary. The writing style came across as slightly old: I had the feeling the story would have flowed quite differently had it been written more recently. I liked it, but I did not liked it enough to want to read the sequels, especially since I have heard the story went downhill after a while. I agree modern day YA has changed how stories are being written. For instances, if I read Hunger Games or Ender's Games or Eagle of the Ninth I can read the difference in between stories written in the current century and those written in the past. Neither is either better nor worst, but something has changed in the last decade or so as to how writers craft their stories. I am not quite capable of putting a name on it, but I definitely see a difference.

 

I never re-read WoK or WoR in its entirety, either.  Most of the time I re-read a chapter at a time after wanting to find a quote and searching up a key word with my eReader.  I always skip the interlude chapters because even though they are useful worldbuilding, I find them hard to get into because they are so different in tone to the main storylines.  Especially that first Purelake one.  The sudden contrast and setting-switch is jarring.  Anyways, if you haven’t got the time to go through old favourites, you can at least pick up a book that you found hit your standards for the three main points of prose/style, plot and characterisation.  That one book that you could immediately name as one of your top 10, and has been so for years.  For me, it would be a book that I would bother owning in hardcopy and eBook edition.  If you get to a point where you are actually going to sit down and write, it helps if you have that one book in front of you, so you can double check and compare your sentence structure and level of description.  It’s a useful trick if you want to emulate a certain style of writing, and I used to do it in my old school days.

I thought the writing style in Ender’s Game was serviceable.  Descriptive without being elaborate, and carries the plot, but it is workmanlike in the same way as Brandon’s, but not beautiful.  Now and then there are poignant moments, but overall it is blunt and definitely not poetic.  The Eagle of the Ninth is more introspective and pays more attention to building imagery and relationships, with an old fashioned sort of charm that I like.  And since it was written for kids, it doesn’t have the intrusive satirical comments on society or politics that many older authors liked to put in their books.  Since YA wasn’t a genre when it was written, it is suitable for all ages to read, which is the best type of YA novel – one that you can enjoy as a kid and re-read as an adult and enjoy it just as much, or even see it on a deeper level.  I think that’s the difference between old YA novels and modern ones with garish covers, supernatural love triangles, and teen protagonists who have problems respecting authority figures.  I have recently read/skimmed a few YA novels, and the main thing I see in common is that they lack complexity.  The conflicts are more black and white than grey and grey, the world tends to be some version of alternate Earth or historical Earth rather than something more original and alien, and focus is put on the characters first and worldbuilding second.  Of the characters, each has one or two main traits (barely better than cardboard) with the obviously defined MC with the most development, but character arcs tend to be minimal and sometimes non-existent.  Of course, this would not be something that would bother a child reading for enjoyment, but I would not be immersed, and I’d be rolling my eyes the whole way through.  Having a simple world or simple characters is not a bad thing if the author does it well, and makes up for it in other ways, but modern YA published in the last 5 or so years rarely has any substance to redeem itself.

My problem is that I’ve been spoiled by too many good books and now I’m too picky.  Well, at least it means that it has forced my taste and my writing skills to improve.  I have learned what kind of styles work, and what writing styles are not worth copying unless I want to write cookie cutter YA.  If you can pick up a book and immediately dislike the writing style enough to be able to explain why it bothers you, then you have become a prose connoisseur.  And if you can translate to skill to writing, you can consider yourself better than published authors.

 

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Oh I didn't mean it as a critic of your story: it wasn't an Adolin centrist one. Shallan was the main protagonist so it made sense it would explore her issues. I do not think Adolin is unhappy, per say, but I do think he is very lonely. In canon, he only realizes this in WoR when he yearns for a sympathetic ear to listen to his women problems only to be turned down by the one person he thought was a good friend. He had always entertained a large circle of acquaintances, but he never truly noticed the fact not one of them actually cared about him pass the benefit a "friendship" with him may mean. When push comes to shove, he is all by himself and if his family, those who should care about him, start to reject him based on his actions, then I have no idea how bad he will react to it.

I certainly think there is much to be said in the Adolin/Dalinar relationship and I hope book 3 will broach it. Adolin admires his father, he hero-worships him: he can't be allowed to fail in his eyes. Ah there is an entire story to be written just about these two.

 

I don’t mind critiques!  I think if they are written by a thoughtful reviewer (someone who can do a better job than writing “THIS SUCKS 1 STAR”) they help authors improve plot and pacing, because people who write things spend a lot of replaying scenes in their head and proofreading to the point where they lose sight of the impact of their writing.  Twists aren’t shocking twists when you’ve read over it two dozen times trying to make it sound right.  I want to get better at writing so I know what to avoid and what to use the next time I decide to write something.  One theme that I really enjoy reading (and writing) is friendship.  I enjoy heartwarming stories as much as I enjoy a good romance, and I wanted to explore friendship within a relationship, which is something that many modern romances lack, because they run off “hey ur hot, let’s have sex” relationship development.  The Power of Friendship is cheesy as heck, but if the friendship is well-written and develops organically, then it’s one trope I unashamedly love.  The lack of platonic or sibling relationships involving trust and communication in WoR was a disappointment to me, because it would have solved a lot of problems, or at least kept them from turning into massive problems. Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan don’t have friends that last the whole book, and only start to become friends at the end.  But hey, fanfiction is authors writing what they want to read, and a lot of what I wrote was author appeal.  I guess it says a lot about me as a person, hahah.

 

Shallan is around 17.5 as of the end of WoR, so it might be closer to 5 years’ difference between her and Adolin rather than 6 years.  To Rosharans, the age difference in-story doesn’t seem to be a big deal and no PoV character has commented on it, so no one thinks it’s unusual or immoral for Adolin to be dating someone Shallan’s age.  Lin Davar considered marrying Balat off to a 50 year old woman, which would be socially acceptable since everyone understands that the marriage would be in the nature of exchange, as most high ranking marriages are.  They thought it was too much because she’s twice his age and probably is too old to have children, but it is still perfectly socially acceptable, if unusual.  Balat would have been a trophy husband in that instance. 

In the second flashback, Shshshsh was 18 or 19 and Dalinar must have been around 24, which is a 5-6 year age difference, which again, is not commented upon.  If they married at age 21 and 27, would you consider that too much?  Because if Adolin’s relationship preferences turn out to mirror his father’s (as they seem to be turning out to be, the more gets revealed from SA3), I could see he and Shallan getting married at that age, if they decided to get married at all.  She would be a legal adult in all countries by Earth standards, if Brandon wanted to avoid the squeamishness of readers who dislike the thought of teenagers doing “things”, or teenage pregnancy.  Though he has written about it before in Warbreaker, with Siri was around 17 and Susebron who was biologically (but not physically) 50 years old, and a prime example of being a manchild.

If Susebron (the tongueless version) was the measuring stick for being a manchild, I would say that Adolin is very far from that.  He may be emotionally stunted, suffers from PTSD and lives in a strict society with no therapists and no friends, but he has adult responsibilities that he is capable of managing himself.  When he rescues the prostitute from being beaten up in WoK, and she offers herself to him no charge, he handles the situation calmly, and I have the suspicion that Dalinar wouldn’t call Adolin out for visiting a brothel.  Dalinar isn’t the type of person who could comfortably talk about “those things” when he can barely discuss them with Navani, so I doubt he would confront Adolin if he did.  Susebron in comparison didn’t even know how that stuff worked.  So I would not say that Adolin is “trawling for teens” because that makes him seem creepy, as it was Jasnah who suggested the match, but rather looking for “the one”.  And if the person who might turn out to be “the one” happens to be a teenager, what is he going to do about it?  Dump her or tell her to come back in 3 years?   What exactly are the symptoms of Adolin’s manchildness?  The wandering eye, playboy behaviour?  The fear of commitment and eventual self-sabotage?  Seems like standard personality flaws rather than being the Rosharan equivalent of a modern neckbeard who lives in his mum’s basement and plays World of Warcraft all day.

I think it’s just your modern perspective overlaying your reading which results in such a dislike of the age gap.  Some of my friends told me that they thought 18 and 22 was too much, but to me, it’s so subjective and honestly, best judged on an individual level rather than with a blanket Yes/No.  Years later, these same friends seem to have changed their minds and have admitted that someone a bit older and with a more “settled” way of thinking would not be a bad thing.

 

 

 

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Well, there is ignoring the canon and there is... ignoring the canon. I can manage to ignore the various shipping writers like to explore (even if I dislike them, I am free to stop reading a story at any given time), but I have a harder ignoring characters being OOC. Even in a modern day setting, I prefer when the characters have to retain their primary characteristics. Too many fics ignore those and change the characters almost beyond recognition. YMMV on this one, but some of the takes others have taken in fanfiction just do not work out for me.

As for the OT3, I guess I do not understand the appeal of a girl playing around with two guys: it seems disloyal, though the OT3 mostly is Adolin and Kaladin together with Shallan watching which makes it kinda creepy. I basically read everything which comes under my hand, even if the ship does not please me, I may still like other aspect of the story. I read fanfiction because I want more of the story and the author isn't producing new material fast enough for my personal tastes.... I just want more, so in absence of canon material, I rely on fanfiction.

From what I have seen in the fandom, in general, Shalladin is more heavily supported than Shadolin. I had a great explanation with respect to demographic as I certainly think it plays a role.

 

I think most fanfics lose me within the first 4-6 paragraphs due to being OOC or just not having an interesting plotline that is sometimes helpfully summarised by the author’s blurb.  In those cases, I only finish the first chapter and close out.  It is the very best fanfiction that makes me want to hit “Next Chapter” as soon as I finish the last, which happens very rarely.  Mostly because many fanfics are short one-shots or incomplete and hanging in writer limbo.  To be fair, I am just as picky with published fiction, and first chapters are important for cementing the style and tone of a written piece.  If your first page doesn’t grab me, then I will struggle trying to immerse myself into the fictional world. 

OT3’s are love triangles, but instead of having the conflict of the girl choosing which one is better, she gets to have them both.  Even if Alethi society was accepting of such an arrangement (they probably would not care, as long as no one knew about it), I have the feeling that Adolin and Kaladin are the type of people who would prefer a monogamous relationship.  It looks like fanfiction authors are writing Shallan as someone with a voyeur fetish.  Well, it’s a bit unusual, but I wouldn’t say it doesn’t fit her character if you stretched your interpretation a bit.   She does enjoy watching shirtless sailors, lets Pattern spy on people, spies on people herself, and likes doing life study drawings.  If Shallan happened to stumble across Adolin changing his clothes in the locker room, her reaction would be more of interest than embarrassment.  Her drawing skills and memory make her the ideal stalker and peeping tom in a setting without modern technology.

 

 

 

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Just as canon Adolin is allowed to go out to the winery and have some fun, providing he remains sober, modern day Adolin also is allowed to attend to various parties, providing he behaves properly. Inside the household, however, he has to live by his father's rules which are quite strict, so yes, no video games. His father thinks badly of them and Adolin is incapable of taking any action his father may disapproved of. Even in his drunken state, Adolin still hero-worships him, thinking of his former days, when he was the Blackthorn, a famous NFL player. He still naively thinks if he does well enough, if he performs well enough, his father will come around to his senses. 

Dalinar, of course, disapproves of relationship in between unmarried people, so there's that. Adolin is allowed to date, but he knows his father would disapproved if he ever moved pass first base, so he hasn't. Anyway, he is too afraid for this: what if he can't do it right?

 

Oh, Dalinar.  I have serious doubts that Dalinar was a virgin at 27 when he married Shshshsh, and that he was a virgin at 24 before he had even met her.  It must be hilariously hypocritical to forbid such “intimacy” for his son, especially in a modern setting where education about these things starts early, and where the “consequences” of a mistake would have been extremely shameful in a medieval setting, can be taken care of in the modern day without too many questions asked.  How does a father even enforce such rules on a son without keeping him locked in the house?  How would a father even find out if his son got to second base with a girl?  Kids don’t talk about these things with their parents (how uncool is that) past the mandatory educational speech everyone gets at around age 12, and even if they did mention it in the presence of others, there is always hip slang that grownups don’t understand.  I don’t disagree that Adolin is a virgin – I’m pretty sure he is, if a kiss on the cheek makes him blush.  If he has kissed girls before Shallan, there wouldn’t have been very many of them, and I assume that he didn’t get any farther than that.  But I believe that his “purity” comes from his own choice or own inability to make a choice rather than his father’s view on marital morality.  Dalinar would probably be glad to see his son had finally settled down.  In WoK he has mentioned before that a good wife would be useful, to Adolin as an officer’s secretary and to the family as a whole, since the only person so far who can be trusted fully with writing notes is Navani.

…And that brings up another question about Adolin’s fears of getting married.  He’s afraid of not being able to do it right.  Is it even possible to do it wrong?

I don’t know if you picked up on it, but when I wrote Adolin in my story, I wrote him as one who is intimately inexperienced.  In the last chapter, the Epilogue, I tried to make it clear that he and Shallan were doing the things.  Even if you start out inexperienced, I don’t think it’s that hard to figure out what goes where.  I tried to walk the line between tasteful and humorous without going into explicit, and writing it made me laugh pretty hard, because the reason why Adolin avoids Shallan for a few days after his first time is that he thinks he broke her or something silly like that.  If I had written the story with Adolin’s PoV, I would have included a mention that afterwards, Adolin went to Kaladin for doctor advice on how to “unbreak” Shallan because he was freaking out about finding some spotting on his bedsheets.

I remember you saying a while ago in this thread that Adolin’s lack of experience would make his first experience cute and sweet.  I personally thought it would turn out to be unintentionally hilarious. 

Jeez.  Your story gets dark pretty quickly.  It seems to fall into the genre of literary fiction or family drama than fantasy, if that’s what you were aiming for.  With family dramas, it is easy to accidentally turn it into soap operas if you have too many viewpoints going on at once, without keeping in mind the balance of internal character exploration and the overall narrative.  But if you do it well, it can turn into a heartwarming family story.  Are you planning to write it out properly, or is this just a mental scenario? 

I think I am the kind of person who feels bad for putting fictional characters in depressing situations.  I would feel guilt if I had to write a “Fall From Grace” scenario where a character ends up in a bad place, especially if it was all self-inflicted.  I feel bad reading about the ways Kaladin was forced to run bridges and get strung up in a highstorm, and I felt bad for every bad thing that happened to Fitzchivalry.  I admire writers who can convincingly write characters at the worst point in their lives, because I don’t think I could do it.  I’m just too soft-hearted, and I need hope spots or else I can’t pick up the book.  Even now I hesitate to re-read books that I know explore depressing character arcs because it’s a mental rollercoaster for me, and I can’t handle the feels.

Kaladin and Adolin as roommate would be a cute idea, if they develop a bromance like they had going on at the end of WoR.  When Adolin went to jail as a protest after the 4:1 duel, he and Kaladin were basically roommates.  I’m a very boring person who enjoys fan service in the form of simple “slice of life” stories instead of high drama, so a story about roommates who do mundane, everyday things like grocery shopping and going to the gym together would be something I’d find enjoyable.  I know it’s boring, but sometimes I like a little light reading.  If Adolin gets over all the drama and ends up doing simple things that make him happy, I think I would be fulfilled with such an ending.  I know other people who have read fantasy novels featuring farmboys who are given magical swords of destiny expect the farmboy to end up as a king at the end of the day, but I like it when the farmboy retires and goes back to his farm.

I do not see Adolin wanting to become friends with Shallan’s brothers.  They are secretive people because of the whole “cover up our parents’ death” deal and the abusive parents thing has traumatised all of them to certain degrees.  Adolin wouldn’t know the reason for their being so evasive, but he’s such a good judge of character that he would pick up on the fact that there is something wrong with them, something that they’re not telling.  He would find it hard to trust them, and he would struggle to befriend them, since Balat is a cripple and can’t participate in Adolin favourite hobby, duelling.  It would be annoying for Adolin if Jushu runs up gambling debts and tells his creditors that Adolin will pay the bills.  But the Ghostbloods are trading Shallan’s brothers in exchange for her participation in their schemes, so an actual introduction of the Kholins and the Davars is likely going to happen SA3.  How exciting! 

 

 

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Considering the fact we haven't seen Pattern react as negatively to the dead-sprens as Syl, it is safe to assume not all sprens are going to react the same. It could be, being a Honorspren, Syl is more sensitive to oaths being broken, but why would she take it on current day bearers of the dead-Shards? It isn't their fault, they aren't to blame, so why does she hate them? I would understand why she would hate the original knight, the one who broke their oaths, but hating Adolin seems pointless. 

As for Kaladin, even prior to Amaram's betrayal, he refused to pick up the Shards he had won. This is how it all happened: Kaladin refused to take the Shards for himself and decides to give them to one of his men, thinking he would be allowed to do so. Technically, he was in his right, but practically what he did was unprecedented and decency has it he should have given them to his lord, not some untrained spearman. Amaram was wrong, but I sadly can understand his point of view. The problem was Shards are just too valuable: kingdoms have been lost for one Shard. In his disdain, Kaladin failed to acknowledge their worth. I personally dislike Kaladin's attitude towards the Shards: I find it disrespectful. They are dead, they are suffering, they do not deserve your disdain: it isn't their fault nor is it the current day bearers' fault.

We do not know, yet, what form the mook of a Desolation will take. It may be the Stormform Parshendis only are a tiny subset of it as if it were only them, then humanity wouldn't have faced complete annihilation each time a Desolation popped by. The creatures who lurk will be terrible, far more terrible than the little we have seen so far and I personally bet, without Radiants, they are completely doomed. Former Desolation threaten to destroy all human life: whichever foes it will propel, they won't be as easily beat down as the Stormform Parshendis.

 

Oh man, Kaladin’s arrogant and presumptuous attitude really annoys me.  We all know his terrible past and abuses he went through in the past with Amaram, when he refused the Shards Adolin offered him and didn’t really give an explanation, that must have felt like a slap in the face to propriety and polite behaviour.  To me, it was something like Shallan telling Adolin she doesn’t need his protection, but doesn’t explain why.  Adolin is left with the awareness that something bad happened, and he doesn’t know what exactly it is, but he still has to step around it carefully like Legos in the dark.  If that scene was a Tumblr post, it would have a trigger warning. 

I think Stormform Parshendi would be the most common Desolation mook, since they are slaves in every rich person’s estate.  Lin Davar, in rural Jah Keved, and Wistiow in the small farming town of Hearthstone had a couple of Parshmen slaves.  No one knows how Thunderclasts and Midnight Essences pop up, if they need an Odium spren to come out of the ground and attack people, but Parshmen just need an Everstorm to change their forms.  I guess we’ll have to wait and see the rarity rankings of various Voidbringers, but in the Shattered Plains at least, with its close proximity to Narak/Parshendi hometown, would have the most number of Voidbringer mooks.

If Honorspren hate dead spren blades, I would not assume that all Windrunners would hate them too – it is only Kaladin who is extremely biased against them due to his traumatic past.  If there were other Windrunners, they would feel uneasy when close to a dead Blade, and they would hear screams if they touched one, but I do not think they would attack the owner of a dead Sprenblade and force them to break the gem bond and throw the Blade down a chasm.  Let alone Radiants forcing Shardbearers to go into hiding.  Shardbearers aren’t criminals just for owning a Shardblade, and since Radiants are into doing the “right thing”, for all flavours of morality, I just can’t see it happening.  A Shardbearer could say he got rid of Blade and never summon it in a public place, and no one would ever know.  It would take years for a bias against dead Blades to spread from Surgebinders/new Radiants to the whole population, since most people know Shardblades as mythical blades of the ancients that are worth kingdoms, and are immediately bestow rank and status to darkeyes.  Little kids in rural farming villages know the stories and legends of Shardblades.  They would not immediately accept the dead Blades as TOOLS OF EVIL.  And even if Shardbearers are kicked out of the army (which is a stupid idea tactically when the Shardplate doesn’t cause screams, and grants extreme mobility, strength, and endurance and immunity to lightning) because Surgebinders think they’re bad people, the majority of them are ambitious, powerhungry Alethis who still feel the Thrill.  Instead of teaming up and fighting Voidbringers with the new Radiants, the Shardbearers would go back to the Princedoms and fight border battles with each other, trying to take lands that aren’t being watched due to all the chaos of the Desolation.  And if the Soulcasters, they don’t even need to follow standard rules of supply and logistics that military actions usually require.  The Alethi upper classes are that petty and selfish.

I think people immediately believing Shards are obsolete is unrealistic, but that’s just me.  News doesn’t travel that quickly in a medieval type setting, when only rich people can afford spanreeds that require gems and Stormlight to operate, and only females are allowed to read.  The warcamps’ messenger system involves young women riding horses and reading the announcements to the men within earshot, over and over.  That’s not very efficient, and can’t cover a country the size of Alethkar within a month or three, which I’m expecting is the timeline covered by SA3.  I think we just disagree about the impact and presence of dead Shardblades in the Desolation.  I agree in a narrative sense that it would create lots of delicious narrative drama and conflict for newly discovered Radiants who ascend from humble origins and can now go toe-to-toe with the established ruling class noble Shardbearer families.  It would make for a great read seeing how people manage to work together and overcome their differences.  But in a realistic sense, I just don’t think it would be something that could pan out over the 3 months or so that each SA book covers (excluding the flashback sequences, of course).

 

 

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Ah well I am currently speed reading Shopaholic to the Rescue...  BTW, I have finished both Eagle of the Ninth and Sabriel. I rather liked both. The first one was written in the old style, but I liked it nonetheless. I disliked the physical description of Marcus and the drawings in the book, so I focused on Channing Tantum instead. It worked much better. I liked Sabriel, I especially like Touchstone, I mean, "prince being rescued" is absolutely a brilliant trope (now I want Shallan to rescue Adolin). It isn't as deep or complex as SA, but it is devoid of under-dogs or depressive characters, so definitely a plus.

Robin Hobb isn't an author I enjoy enough to yearn for her next book: I typically tend to wait for her trilogies to be completed before reading them. I am not emotionally invested into her stories, I enjoy them, but not much more than that. 

 

Would you like the books less if I told you that Marcus in Eagle of the Ninth was 21 when he met the love interest girl Cottia when she was 14 years old?  And Sabriel is 19 while Touchstone is biologically over 200 years old.   Both books were ones I enjoyed reading as a kid, and enjoy re-reading, because they focus on adventure questing with the romance as a very minor plot that you can ignore if you aren’t interested in it, while still acknowledging that it’s there and that the characters aren’t total robots.  I think it’s because they were written in 1954 and 1995, years before YA became the genre it is now, and both blur the lines between adult fiction and youth oriented fiction.  “Sabriel” is one of the classics of rules-organised magic systems, and Brandon has definitely read it, because he references the author Garth Nix in his Alcatraz Smedry series.

I’ve recently read pulp 1980’s fantasy, one of those cheap paperbacks with the terrible cover pictures that never seem to match with any scene in the book, and they tend to use inscrutable classic wizards with robes and staffs who have seemingly limitless power and never explain anything.  The reviews say that it was good for its time, but in this day and age, readers are so aware of tropes that to use the classic ones can be boring and predictable.  Which is why I enjoy Sabriel as an example of a strong female protagonist who saves the day, and saves the prince.  It also features necromancy and zombie apocalypse without veering into grimdark territory.

Brandon’s writing of battle scenes is more violent than standard YA fare, but I’d say it’s pretty typical in terms of tone for a fantasy series.  It’s not squeaky clean; it’s visceral and bloody and gets across the point that war is not pretty or glorious, especially when the PoV character isn’t running on adrenaline or the Thrill.  But compared to grimdark fantasy, or hardcore military scifi/fantasy, Brandon doesn’t revel in the bloodshed and linger on the gory descriptions like other series do.  When you read it, you get that it’s a dirty job, but you aren’t retching while you read.  When I am physically cringing while reading a violent battle scene, that is what I’d call genuinely grim and disgusting. 

 

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The first wave killed Kaladin’s leathery-faced friend, dropping him with three separate arrows. The man to Kaladin’s left fell as well—Kaladin hadn’t even seen his face. That man cried out as he dropped, not dead immediately, but the bridge crew trampled him. The bridge got noticeably heavier as men died.

The Parshendi calmly drew a second volley and launched. To the side, Kaladin barely noticed another of the bridge crews floundering. The Parshendi seemed to focus their fire on certain crews. That one got a full wave of arrows from dozens of archers, and the first three rows of bridgemen dropped and tripped those behind them. Their bridge lurched, skidding on the ground and making a sickening crunch as the mass of bodies fell over one another.

Chapter 6, “Bridge Four”, Way of Kings

 

This is where Kaladin realises how bridges work for the first time, and is one of the things that makes him want to hit the Honor Chasm.  It’s descriptive, but not overly emotive.  I can picture what’s happening in my mind (one of Brandon’s strong points in writing), but I don’t feel it.

Compare it to true grimdark:

 

 

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Have you ever burned yourself, Jorg?’ Father asked.

I had. I once picked up a poker that had been left with one end in the fire. The pain had taken my breath. I couldn’t scream. Not until the blisters started to rise could I make any sound above hissing, and when I could I howled so loud my mother came running from her tower, arriving as the maids and nurse burst from the next room. My hand had burned for a week, weeping and oozing, sending bursts of horrific pain along my arm at the slightest wiggle of fingers. The skin fell away and the flesh beneath lay raw and wet, hurt by even a breath of air.                

With a scream I let the hammer swing.

Justice’s leg broke with a loud snap. For a heartbeat there was no other sound. The limb looked wrong, upper and lower parts at sick-making angles, white bone in a slather of red blood and black fur. Then came the howling, the snarling fury, the straining at his bonds as he looked for something to fight, some battle to keep away the pain.

Chapter 10, King of Thorns, by Mark Lawrence

It’s a well written series with great twist endings, and it’s so descriptive sometimes that it hurts.

I like Brandon’s books, but there are things that other authors are better at writing, and when I read other things and later come back to Cosmere works, I find I can appreciate them more.

 

 

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Nah I simply wondered if the "knocking Adolin out, gagging him and dragging him out of the battlefield" plot line would have really happened. I can see Shallan wanting to do it, but it wouldn't sit well with Adolin... I love the idea of the woman being the one ending up protecting the man, from whatever danger there may him (himself in the case of Adolin), but in the fic you wrote, I certainly think Adolin would do a last stand just to prove he has the nerves for it. His military career hasn't been great and he has trouble admitting he may not have the stomach for warfare. It would definitely fit within the character to do something very stupid just to make a point. 

Canon Adolin doesn't have anything to prove as a soldier, but I think he'll have thinks to prove as a son which may end up in him doing something equally stupid.

 

Adolin in WoK didn’t like the idea of a darkeyed slave saving him and the remnants of his army from the Tower.  But he’s pragmatic when he comes down to it.  In the heat of the moment, he would definitely do a heroic last stand.  When he calms down afterwards, he’d be eventually appreciative of the effort taken to save his life.  I think it would be something that would strain his and Shallan’s relationship if it actually happened, but Shallan wouldn’t regret it if it saved someone she loves.  Shallan is selfish for good reasons, like stealing Jasnah’s Soulcaster to save her family.  She knows that Jasnah wouldn’t like it if someone took her stuff, but she just doesn’t care, because she considers saving her brothers worth the risk.  I wanted to emphasise that Shallan, even though she is “good”, however you interpret it, she can be a person who is not conventionally nice.  She’s still selfish and self-centred, and the fact that Kaladin is willing participate in her schemes shows that he’s not completely goody-goody either and understands that Adolin being alive is beneficial, and not just because they both value his friendship.  I also wanted to hint that Kaladin is still not completely over his crush on Shallan, and even when she decides she doesn’t like him romantically, she still compares how different he is to Adolin.  Brandon does it in a superficial way in WoR, when canon Shallan thinks of Kaladin as rugged rocks, and Adolin as kind and genuine.  Come on girl, you can do better than that. 

This is why I take a break and read romances, because they get deeper into the emotional development instead of the relationship being a minor sideplot to saving the world.   I tried to explore the relationship between Shallan and Kaladin in the direction that I felt SA would develop given enough time.  Shallan and Kaladin can have a working and functional platonic-only relationship, because they have so much in common, but if they tried to base a relationship on it, Shallan would bail because she would rather move on instead of linger in self-pity as Kaladin has a tendency to do with his grudges.  I do not see Adolin being interested in maintaining a platonic-only relationship with Shallan.  He would put effort into a relationship if it was important to him, whereas Kaladin is such a workaholic that he would take it for granted, do other things, and come back wondering why his relationship is crumbling.  I think I’m much better at writing romance than the family drama genre.

 

 

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Kaladin is stated as an oddity for knowing how to read, it is thus safe to assume the male quartermaster are just as illiterate as Adolin... If a prince didn't learn his glyph, then we can safely bet pretty much everyone else didn't.

I certainly think Renarin is the son who takes up the most after Dalinar's ruthless instincts: he simply lacks the means to demonstrate it, but once he figures out his worth... I say watch out for him...

 

Sigzil, a darkeyed slave, can read.  So can Renarin and Dalinar.  Adolin knows enough to recognise some basic shapes of glyphs, but he can’t read.  I would say that most lighteyed men can read glyphs, or else they wouldn’t print café menus in glyphs – if it was for women only, all the writing would be in the squiggly women’s script. Some higher nan darkeyed men can too, if it is relevant to their trade.  Adolin is the odd one out for being illiterate when he hasn’t learn the writing that is allowed to men.

 

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“Sir!” said a lanky, long-armed man at the front of the bridgemen. “We were just heading in to check on the highprince, when . . .”

Adolin didn’t hear the rest. He pushed through the bridgemen, finally seeing what the spheres illuminated on the floor of the sitting room.

More scratched glyphs. Adolin knelt down, trying to read them. Unfortunately, they hadn’t been drawn in any kind of picture to help. He thought they were numbers . . .

“Thirty-two days,” said one of the bridgemen, a short Azish man. “Seek the center.”

Damnation. “Have you told anyone of this?” Adolin asked.

“We just found it,” the Azish man said.

Chapter 50, “Uncut Gems”, Words of Radiance

 

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The back side of the wood had been scratched with a knife, jagged lines forming a series of glyphs.

Adolin stood up. Several of those were numbers, weren’t they?

“Thirty-eight days,” Renarin read. “The end of all nations.”

Chapter 33, “Burdens”, Words of Radiance

 

Which goes onto prove that Renarin is perfectly capable of holding a supply position as quartermaster, and contributing to the Kholin army in useful and constructive way.  He just doesn’t want to because he’s too single-minded and inflexible about being a proper Alethi “real warrior” and going to warrior heaven.  For someone who so adamantly refuses to go to the Ardentia and become a priest, he sure does get fixated with those crazy Vorin religious beliefs.

I always figured that Renarin’s dislike of Adolin being around Sadeas was because Adolin is normally friendly, flirty and easy-going.  When he is around Sadeas, it’s essentially an OOC moment for him, since he keeps his twitchy moments (summoning Shardblade over and over, highstorm nervousness) to himself most of the time.  I didn’t think Renarin’s Truthwatching powers manifested in a way that let him predict that Adolin would end up ruining his life killing Sadeas 2000 pages later, but rather that he knows his brother and his habit of doing stupid risky things out of impulse.  It could just be confirmation bias, but the more I look into Renarin’s character quirks and compare it to Dalinar’s, they really are alike.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that both are on the autism spectrum, but Adolin has previously mentioned that he and Renarin’s grandfather had mental illness that gave him visions/hallucinations in old age.  Renarin and Dalinar care a lot about control and try to keep themselves perfectly composed, because if they don’t, they feel like their weakness is exposed to the world.  To me, it seems like a conscious effort to present outward calmness and control, and their perception of themselves comes from how well they hold their control   Adolin in comparison values what other peoples’ perceptions, and puts on his confident playboy act naturally and subconsciously.  He doesn’t become aware of how fake it is until Jakamav rejects him and he realises he has no friends and no one really cares about him.

Seems like Dalinar putting his own framework of Codes onto Adolin instead of letting Adolin interpret the Codes for himself is like shoving a square peg in a round hole.