shawnhargreaves

On 11/23/2020 at 6:25 AM, Chalke219 said:

I also got the impression that the epilogue with Wit talking about the need to sometimes lie to your audience for the story to work was analogous to this exact reveal, he's been saying previously not to expect an 'avengers style team up' but it certainly seems to be heading that way now, and I'm all for it

This makes sense to me.  A consistent characteristic of Brandon's writing is that things move faster, with reveals coming sooner and on a much larger scale, than anyone was expecting.  He sets things up so you think all three Mistborn books will be about defeating TLR, or that Rayse is the big bad of Stormlight, but nope!

It would be consistent for him to take the same approach with broader Cosmere crossovers.

Whale, or Vayne? 

There's definitely something different going on with gemhearts vs. fabrials.  When Navani captures a spren in a gemstone, it's trapped until she does something explicitly to release it (afaik breaking the gem is the only way?) but Ulium can come and go from Venli's gemheart as he wishes.

This could be as simple as Navani is using cut gems while a natural uncut gemheart is less 'perfect', though?

In the light (pun intended) of RoW, I find it necessary to draw attention to this track from the weirdest album made by one of the weirdest musicians ever:

Frank Zappa - A Different Octave - YouTube

How did Zappa know about light/pitch equivalence, not to mention negative light???

If we accept the premise that Zappa somehow had insight into Cosmere details which Brandon would not write for another three decades, I must also draw attention to another track from that same album:

Frank Zappa - How The Pigs' Music Works - YouTube

Book 5 prediction: impact of Kaladin's split ends on the Mists of Preservation is going to be important.

On 11/24/2020 at 6:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

The parts of a Sleepless have to be within a certain distance. I doubt that a few light years is close enough. Unless he took all his horedelings along, his mind would rip apart when worldhopping.

What's your source for this?

I was imagining the parts that make up a Sleepless would be more spiritually than cognitively linked, in which case distance would be irrelevant.

(better made, I mean)

(in a physical rather than cognitive sense)

(in the US hardcover edition, anyway)

The ink used on the cover is watertight!  Unlike Oathbringer, which stained my fingers if I got the cover even slightly wet while reading.  This is a BIG DEAL for those of us who enjoy long reading sessions in the bath.

On 11/16/2020 at 11:29 PM, Eternal Khol said:

Harmony talks about having/finding a kind of Champion who would be like his main agent. Harmomy’s hands.

who do we think it is?

Wax?

Exact quote from Harmony:

Quote

I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A ... sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill.

Agree this is probably Wax, but my first out-there thought upon reading it was Kaladin!  He's a healer, and also a killer.  Harmony specifically uses the word protect...

The immediate pivot to Dany going after Cersei would have felt way more interesting to me if it'd taken place over a backdrop of "ffs Dany, literally two thirds of us just died in one night, and NOW you want to continue fighting against someone else?"

It's interesting that most of the reaction to the last season has focused on character arcs rather than fantasy aspects of the worldbuilding.  My personal opinion is that the character outcomes were fine although a little rushed, while I felt the fantasy side of things was frustratingly underdeveloped.   It wasn't quite a violation of Sanderson's First Law, because not much of the conflict got solved using magic, but so much time was spent establishing magical abilities of leading characters, I thought it sidled right up and pushed against that 'law'.  For instance:

• Face shifting powers were a major part of all the time spent on Arya's assassin training.  She used them once, and then... nothing.  Even though her assassin skills proved critically important, and she was in situations where hiding her identity could have been useful.  Perhaps this was a one-time-only power?  We just don't know enough about how it works.  If you're going to show a leading character develop an ability, then show her not using it, you need to explain why not!
   
• Ditto Bran's powers.  Much time spent on the story of how he gained them.  He turned out pretty important.  But what exactly are these powers?  Still completely unclear to me.  I kinda want to believe he masterminded the whole thing and knew how it would turn out the whole time.  In which case he's actually a really dark character, having used Hodor and Theon, not to mention not doing anything to stop Dany's massacre, just as steps on his way to the throne.  Was he playing the game so skillfully that he won the throne without anyone else even realizing he was playing?  I'd love this to be the case, but maybe I'm just reading too much into things because they never told us.  Perhaps his powers are much less useful, can basically only see stuff without changing things (but in that case what's with Hodor?) and is a fundamentally good person who never wanted the throne.  We just don't know.   Same as with Arya, no fair giving lead characters maybe-important powers that remain completely unexplained.
   
• Exactly how powerful are dragons?  It's seemingly quite variable :-)
   
• How intelligent are dragons?  I'd placed them somewhere around a dog or horse, although with a strange telepathic-ish link to Dany.  But right at the end, we learn that dragons understand character motivation and symbolism well enough to want to torch an inanimate object made out of swords. If they're that smart, surely they had complex opinions and goals and motivations all along?   Why didn't we see any of that earlier.  Now I'm full of questions about how Dany's relationship with them worked, and how being bonded to these super intelligent reptiles played into her arc.

Leaving these big questions aside, there are a few small things I think could have made a big improvement to how I felt about the last season:

• More people needed to die in the battle with the White Walkers.  I get why they wanted to wrap that up leaving time for other plot, but it just felt too easy - intense imagery but no real cost to justify the supposed scale of the threat.  Could have killed all of Tormund, Brienne, Sam, Ghost, and the Onion Knight with no real effect on what came after but greatly increased emotional impact.  Possibly even Jamie or the Hound.
   
• They shouldn't have explained the backstory of how the Night King was created.  If you aren't going to fully develop a magical threat, don't develop it at all and leave things mysterious.  That would have left us with a doubt of whether the threat was truly gone forever, or just one individual defeated temporarily, which would have made the ending of Jon and wildings heading north much more ambiguous and open ended.

I just finished Foundryside, by Robert Jackson Bennett.  Wow!  Such a great book, and now so frustrating to be waiting for the next :-)

I'm posting here because this tickled all the same appreciation centers in my brain that Brandon consistently does, so I figure there's a better than average chance that others here will also enjoy it.  It has many Brandonish elements:

• Interesting and deep worldbuilding.
• Magic-as-science: everything is built from consistent rules, but these rules are not fully understood by in-world characters, some of what they think they know turns out to be wrong, and ongoing experimentation is constantly discovering more.
• Cinematic action sequences using previously established abilities in creative ways.
• Plot twists (some of which I saw coming, others not so much).
• A generosity of pace: there are big mysteries that I was expecting to have to wait multiple books to get resolved, only to be presented with answers in the middle of the first book, at the same time as the story zooms out and the scope keeps getting bigger and bigger...

Early on I worried that it was TOO Brandonish, to the point of being derivative.  The magic system was basically Forging (that same word is even used in a few places!), the main character was Vin, and an early action sequence was a steel+iron Allomantic fight with unrealistic physics. But then I realized the physics were perfectly fine - it's just that the magic was working a different way from what I'd started out with in my head.  There's still a lot in common with Forging, and also with Soulcasting. but these are developed well and go to different places.  Great conversations with the cognitive aspects of inanimate objects: fans of Stick will love the debate with a barely sentient locked door, trying to persuade it that opening would be consistent with the small print of its programming.

Highly recommended!

1 hour ago, Kaleid said:

What's scarier than a shard? Two shards?

Is there something out there that even shards are scared of (other than Sazed)?

Probably!

Brandon does surprises well.  Every book he's ever written, huge things were unveiled halfway, two thirds, or even nine tenths of the way through the story.  Not just filling in the dots between already established endpoints type things (like more Fused arriving, or learning more about the remaining Unmade and Thunderclasts) but the kind of move where the camera pans back and you realize that what you thought was the entire canvas is actually just a tiny corner of something MUCH bigger.

Stormlight is gonna be the same.

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

Lightweaving isn't affecting anything physical (well, light, but that's basically massless).

I don't think we know for sure whether lightweaving actually affects light, or the perceptions of those who later view that light?  If cameras existed in Roshar, what would a photo of Shallan's lightweaving show?  (if it was viewed later on, once the lightweaving was no longer active, so the perception of the person viewing the photo would not be affected).

There seems to be quite a bit of quantum mechanical stuff going on with surgebinding (eg. the ardents who experiment with recording observations of a spren in WoK) and the distinction between actual state of reality vs. making observations of that state is an important (although surprisingly subtle) aspect of that branch of physics.

In Kholinar, while surrounded by corrupted spren, we observe that Kaladin draws screamers as soon as he attempts to use his powers, yet Shallan is able to lightweave to her heart's content with no repercussions.  Why this difference?

The characters explain this as her magic somehow being 'quieter' than his, but that's a "just because" rationale rather than proper explanation.  This observed difference seems like a symptom of something more fundamental and perhaps informative about the nature of these magic systems.

Ideas:

1.  We know that different orders of Surgebinders are aligned with varying blends of Honor vs. Cultivation.  Perhaps the screaming spren are more sensitive to Honor than Cultivation?

2.  Related - are the screamers corrupted windspren?  Perhaps that is why they pick up more easily on Windrunning.  If so, would corrupted creationspren have been able to sense Shallan?

3.  I subscribe to the theory that surges can have different effects in the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms.  Perhaps the screamers pick up more easily on physical effects, like Kaladin is using, while Shallan's lightweaving is more cognitive or spiritual in nature?  (I would have guessed it was primarily cognitive, but Stormlight Ars Arcanum says it has a major spiritual component).

On a slightly different note: Shallan makes detailed observations of which kinds of spren have been corrupted vs. which are unchanged.  I noticed a pattern here: it appears to be the spren of negative emotions which are corrupted: fearspren, painspren, hungerspren, etc.  Those of more positive emotions (anticipationspren, gloryspren) are unchanged.  Does this indicate a limitation on Sja-anat's powers?  Perhaps she can only change spren which are in some way Connected to herself.  In which case, her recent ability to corrupt Radiant spren (which we are told has not happened before) might be an even bigger sign than I'd previously realized that Sja-anat is changing?

In OB part 4 we learn that the spren no longer consider it safe to travel to Cultivation's perpendicularity in the Horneater peaks.  Apparently the Fused and Voidspren are there in force - sounds like they are putting significant effort into controlling that area (much more so than other places in Shadesmar).

We have nowhere near enough info yet to understand why, but let's not let that stand in the way of a random speculation thread! 

My first thought was that controlling the perpendicularity was about getting easier access to Braize, perhaps as part of the process by which the Fused respawn and/or voidlight is powered.  But the Fused and Everstorm appear to predate Odium having enough force to take over parts of Shadesmar.

Any other ideas?  Perhaps this is about blocking Cultivation from doing something?

I don't see how Timbre could be a Cryptic, since we know what those look like and his appearance is completely different?

Venli was a scholar, which is kind of an explorer in the intellectual rather than physical sense?

But it was Eshonai that was described specifically as being an explorer, not necessarily all Willshapers.  WoR epigraphs say their order was varied in personality, loved adventure, novelty or oddity, and could be frustrating/unreliable.  Eshonai's exploring certainly fits those traits, but I think Venli's research does too.
 

18 hours ago, Kered said:

If this is the case than it only makes sense that the reason Hoid has a grudge with Rayse is because Rayse has somehow impeded Hoid from eating bacon.

This can be easily demonstrated through an application of basic set theory:

Take the letters in the word "Rayse':  r, a, y, s, e.

Order them alphabetically, producing the set R = { a, e, r, s, y }

Now take 'bacon', which gives the set B = { a, b, c, n, o }

We can understand Odium's past interactions with bacon by looking at the intersection of these two sets, R ∩ B = { a }

Of course any cosmere scholar will immediately recognize that a solitary 'a' must represent Adonalsium.  Therefore, it is proven that Rayse has consumed all bacon since the time of the Shattering.  He takes not only pain and other strong emotions, but also delicious and crispy pig products.  No wonder Hoid doesn't like him!

1 minute ago, Master Knapper said:

Could Bavadin have restricted access to Taldain simply to protect the supply of Ramen? I had to do the same thing once to protect my beer supply.

Autonomy is notoriously unforgiving of other people stealing stuff out of the fridge.  GET YOUR OWN!

I think we might be reading too much into the WoB that Tanavast and Cultivation were a couple.  That doesn't preclude the possibility that they could have had major disagreements, or fought, or that Cultivation could have worked with Odium at some point!   What we see in Vorin culture is very Honor-forward, with Cultivation reduced almost to myth, which doesn't seem like a very equal relationship between the two of them.  I think there's a lot of complexity in that history which we still have to learn about.

Pet theory:  Odium works by stirring up conflict between others.  eg. getting humans and Parshendi to fight each other.   When he arrived on Roshar, he did the same thing at Shardic level, hammering some kind of wedge into the middle of the Tanavast/Cultivation relationship.  I believe it's possible that this went so far as for Cultivation to have been involved in splintering Honor.

Honor told Dalinar in a vision that Cultivation is better at future sight than he is.  I don't think we know yet whether Odium is good at it or not though?  (or maybe I missed that).  Perhaps the prohibition in Vorinism is not specifically because future sight is of Odium, but because Vorinism is Honor's religion, and future sight = either Odium or Cultivation but definitely not Honor?

It makes perfect sense that delicious (yet non-nutritious) food of the dried, "just add water" variety would originate on Taldain.

And I love this first theory!  Can it be extended further?  Is the reason Hoid collects so many invested objects because there are other delicious snacks that have not been available since the shattering of Adonalsium?  Perhaps his ultimate goal is the ability to recreate the cheesy wotsit?

2 hours ago, aemetha said:

As Taravangian gets smarter, he loses his empathy and compassion. We've seen scenes where he orders peoples death for the most minor of slights. Now, consider when he wrote the diagram he was an order of magnitude more intelligent than even his smartest other days. If he was in such a state, I could foresee a situation where he literally stopped caring about the people of Roshar altogether, and decided the goal was worthless. So he wrote a diagram to make himself think it was a means to the stated end, but is in fact a path to a selfish acquisition of power for himself at the expense of the people of Roshar.

Remember that super smart T = Cultivation.

Cultivation indeed has no empathy for individuals, but that doesn't mean the goal is selfish acquisition of power.  Cultivation will use whatever tools are available, including destroying or harming her own tools in whatever ways may prove useful, in order to achieve growth and change toward a desired outcome.

For instance, this winter I planted clover in my raised beds, as a cover crop to protect the soil from winter rains.  This will fix nitrogen into the soil, then start flowering in late February.  At that point I will turn the soil over, killing thousands of baby flowers, let it rot for a couple of weeks, then plant onions and carrots where they can feed on the corpses of dead clover.  I will feel no guilt for this mass slaughter - it's just the best way I know to grow big nutritious spring vegetables.

THAT's what Cultivation is.   I pity what may happen to poor T once this is all done playing out :-)

9 minutes ago, Beltway2A said:

Isn't that basically what hemalurgy is? Ruin co-opting Allomancy by way of metal spikes? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Odium harvested pieces of Surgebinding spirit web to give to the Fused as voidbinding.

This is more of a meta reason than something I can justify from the next, but I think it's still valid line of reasoning:

I don't think Brandon would be so unimaginative as to repeat himself that closely.  Either giving Honor and Odium the same Surgebinding magic, or giving Odium something so close to Ruin's Hemalurgy that the Fused could have stolen Surgebinding - these are just not different enough.  We should be looking for voidbinding to be something fresh and exciting and unusual.

"consumed" is an odd word to use in that context.  Therefore, something odd is going on.  I think we'll see "her" again in some form, but likely not as the same Aesudan that eg. Jasnah would necessarily recognize.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

And in the end I think that's probably the point that Sanderson was trying to make, the twist he was hoping to execute. That sometimes the nice guy that you go on a few good dates with can be The One and sometimes the one that you go down the start of the wild and passionate forbidden love turns out to not be the right pick after all. The subversion makes the cliches work because when you get to the end, Brandon says, "In any other story, she would have picked the forbidden passionate one instead of the one she was 'supposed' to be with, but in this story, I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen and she ends up with Adolin instead."

Thanks for chiming in on this thread, Feather!  I've been curious to see what you would make of it all.

I'd like to clarify something you may have missed while skimming the nearly-entire-Stormlight-novel-worth that has been written here so far.  Many of the more passionate posters in this thread are not primarily approaching this from a Kaladin vs. Adolin perspective, but instead are concerned about Shallan's mental health and the haste with which we feel she made an important decision.

I completely agree that "I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen" would be an interesting way to go.  I would love to read that story!  But I am struggling to reconcile your take on this with what I read during Oathbringer, where I didn't feel that Brandon did actually show us what the right pick was either way.  The way I see it, Shallan was unstable during most of OB, and also clearly conflicted about her relationship options.  Many words were spent exploring both sides of that (although more so in WoR than OB, where she was kept busy with more immediate crises).  Then at the end of OB, she made a snap decision that was not well considered, not agreed to by all of her alts, and most importantly, coming from a place of unresolved mental illness and fresh off the heels of a massive series of external stresses that would leave anyone incapable of making serious life decisions in a proper way.

To me this is has nothing to do with whether I found her relationship with Adolin vs. Kaladin cuter, more plausible, or cliched.  It's as if a friend of mine went out partying, got incredibly drunk, and woke up married the next morning.  Let's just say my first reaction would not be "pray tell me more about this new spouse: what are your common interests and I cannot wait to meet them!" :-)

I know very little about Dissociative Identity Disorder (unlike depression and addiction, with which I have enough real life experience to attest to the accuracy with which Brandon portrays Kaladin and Dalinar), but others on this thread have expert knowledge of it.  They've done a great job articulating the details of what to me was a vague intuition that Shallan has a lot of work still ahead to integrate her personalities. At least according to current real world medical knowledge, in her current state a marriage to Adolin is more likely to hurt than help that healing process.

So I am left wondering:

Did Brandon really spend so many words and so much nuance setting up her tension between two options, only to resolve it so quickly that many of us were left feeling unsatisfied?  His writing can certainly move fast over big things at times (that's the very nature of the avalanche technique), but these are usually so carefully prepared that just a few sentences can change everything yet leave me with a sense of awe about how obvious the conclusion is in retrospect and how well everything fits.  To me at least, this wasn't that.

Also, did Brandon really write a portrayal of Dissociative Identity Disorder that contradicts current understanding of that condition?  I find it unlikely, especially considering how accurately he is portraying other mental illnesses (eg. Kaladin's depression is not magic fantasy depression, but follows the same patterns and smells the same as what various people I love dearly struggle with).

Or did Brandon write a character who is following textbook DID, in which case her state at the end of OB is far less healthy than it might superficially appear, yet who independently made an unrelated and correct decision about who should be The One for her?  I just don't find that plausible, and my sense is that Brandon takes marriage seriously enough that he wouldn't either.

So I'm left with only three options:

1. Are my perceptions off, so Shallan is healthier and her decision less hasty than the way I read it?
2. Is Brandon a less careful and skilled writer than I believe him to be?
3. Or is this storyline not finished yet?

I do not like #1 or #2, so am choosing to believe in #3 at least for the time being :-)

38 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Not sure if it is enough though to draw the Shardbow at least Kaladin doesn't think so.

Specifically, Kaladin thinks "Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn’t vastly improve strength".  But Kaladin's knowledge of how Stormlight works comes from personal experience.  In other words, he knows how it works for Windrunners.   What if Rock is on the way to bonding some other kind of spren?  (eg. Stoneward?)