kaellok

Ivory was capable of carrying a sword, so I'd guess that he just uses his whole body to make a black blade of misery, probably potent enough to damage a spren.

Also, and I have to emphasize this: Jasnah was scared to death of the Desolations coming and not having been able to stop it, so I highly doubt she took any intentional detours beyond the strictly necessary ones, which I can see talking to the Highspren as.

She definitely didn't take any unnecessary detours on purpose.  If you don't really know what you're doing when playing with a power that's an awful lot like teleportation, then you may end up with a whole lot of accidental detours just trying to get back where you started from.

   

I don't think he did anything special with the plates in this part. If I recall correctly, (at work can't really look up the part) his armor was just cracked all over from the pressure of the claw which made the stormlight "glow" around him as it was escaping the armor. Could be wrong but thats how I remember it

Also I am more incline to think the plate is not from the nahl bonded spren. As state before, Syl turned into a shield with Kaladin and didn't crack at all. Where a couple good hits with a shardblade and shardplate cracks and breaks, so if Syl makes Kaladin a full suit of armor, wouldn't it not crack like shardplate does?

Maybe one of the KR orders main thing is to make shardplate since they weren't all fighters and some where other things like diplomats? Nothing to really support this, just an idea.

Well, the bondsmiths probably crafted something 

We know that she is also really good at lying, to others and to herself--and those are the same kinds of people that, in my experience, are also the most prone to addictive personalities.  

Noone should base their self-value on romantic relationship; this isn't what I meant at all.

Humans are social creatures, we need family, close friends, love. Having a romantic relationship is a natural part of one's life. Not the most significant, not something to defy yourself with, but it's not healthy (or whatever's the appropriate word; sorry not my native language) for anyone to not have any romantic interests ever. 

 

Jasnah is so detached from such things it doesn't make her look strong and independent in my opinion. Just shows she's hurt and created thick walls between herself and others. She has some strong internal issues she hasn't dealt with. She could be strong, independent and in a happy relationship and I fail to see how this could possibly undermine her character.

I see what you're saying now, and I at least somewhat agree.  The closest thing she has to a real friend is Ivory, and then Shallan.  Having actual, real friends (which Shallan could easily become, but wasn't there yet) would be good.  

The concern that people seem to have with Jasnah being romantically engaged is that it isn't necessary to strengthen her character any--and if it's done in a "ALL THE MAIN CHARACTERS MUST HAVE LOVE INTERESTS HURRAH!" manner, then it would weaken her current strengths.  Of course, if it's done well then that argument flies out the window; it'll just be harder to have a convincing, realistic romantic relationship for her than a convincing, realistic and deep friendship with other people.  If you contrast that with, well, most of the other characters--they all feel deeply and strongly, even if not exactly love.  We've seen the breadth and depth of their emotions, and so it's not such a huge leap for me to accept them falling deeply, madly in love.  

Maybe Jasnah does too; we just haven't seen much of her yet, and nearly all of that has been through other people's eyes.

I really don't understand those of you who want her to end up alone. The series are going to cover many years. Do you really want Jasnah to grow old alone? I think that would be very sad. 

Alone?  No.  No one is saying that.  Or by 'alone' do you mean 'no romantic attachment'?  Not everyone judges their self-worth based on having a romantic partner.  She should learn to have close friends; that's an area where she's definitely lacking right now, but there are hints of potential.  But if she's paired up with someone just because it would be 'sad' for her to be 'alone' (because anyone who is single is obviously alone) then I think that would weaken her character, not strengthen it.  That doesn't mean that if it happens it's bad, just that if it obviously happens to ensure that all of the main characters are 'paired up' it would be bad.

 

To say that his story arc is a rehash of WoK is just false.  The lessons he learned are completely different.  The WoK was learning about being a leader. His 2nd ideal is an oath that gives him a position of power, the savior role.  In WoR was learning lessons about being a follower, about being subservient. You see this throughout the book as Dalinar castigates Kaladin for lack of respect.  The 3rd is an oath about being bound by responsibility, and not just your personal feelings.  This is not a lesson that Kaladin could learn as a bridgeman, when there was no lower that he could go.

 

What Kaladin's story lacked is the power that many thought he had gained at the end of WoK (and which he really didn't).  Instead of shifting to an external conflict, his story conflict remained internal. That is the only way in which the two stories are the same.

In some ways what you're saying is correct.  If we imagine Kaladin's story arc in WoK being a walk through deciduous trees, then in WoR it's clearly a walk through evergreens; completely different!  And yet, even though the details are different, the big picture is the same--he's still walking in a forest through a bunch of trees.  In WoK he struggled with accepting himself, accepting responsibility, and accepting others; in WoR he struggled with accepting himself and accepting others that weren't Bridgemen.  Maybe the lessons he learned were completely different if you're clever enough to look beneath the surface--but the presentation of them is what was so jarring, boring, and frustrating because it feels like a backslide or rehash.

A much, MUCH more interesting way to have presented his struggle with the lighteyes would have been to bring the Parshendi into it; after all, Kaladin says that he felt closer to them, and was uncomfortable fighting them at the end of WoK.  You'd think that he'd make some efforts to learn more about them in WoR, but no.  We see a couple reminders of this, with the comment someone makes about the Bridge 4 bodyguards not fighting, and then when he gives Shen a spear saying (paraphrased) "Others judge me by the color of my eyes, and that's wrong; so I won't judge you by the color of your skin, because that's equally wrong."  So it doesn't seem like that was forgotten at all, but that Kaladin's time on screen was cut down to being unreasonably angry with a chip on his shoulder (he is just as guilty for judging people by the color of their eyes as any lighteyes is, after all) interspersed with action scenes.  Up until the walk through the Chasm, anyway.

His final realization that Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien, and his actions saving him, well, it's pretty damnation awesome.  That scene is one of my favorites in the book.  But I still firmly believe that he could have reached that point in a much more interesting, less frustrating trudge through an internal conflict eerily similar to one he already fought through once.

Does inherent Soulcasting really need specific gem stones? I was under the impression that that was just for fabrial, and that Jasnah just pretended to need to corresponding gems. And that Jasnah typically carried her Soulcaster with what allowed her to transform crystal, smoke and fire (but she still managed to transform all the food and stuff). But maybe I missed something. 

Jasnah makes mention of Shallan only bringing one mostly spent sphere with her when she entered Shadesmar near the end of WoK, and one of the spheres in Jasnah's fabrial was cracked after the encounter with the murderers/rapists in the alleyway.  So, it would seem very likely that spheres, or at the very least stormlight, is required--even for non-fabrial soulcasting.

@ King of nowhere, nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate.  However, I think that to compare the abilities and which we would rather have then it makes sense to assume that if we had them we'd also have the resource to power them equal to the novels.  I mean, surgebinding is useless without stormlight otherwise, so maybe we're all surgebinders and just don't know it!  Even if we assume a drastically de-powered version, though, it's not a guarantee that a gemstone will crack when used; the larger the change, the greater the chance it will crack.  So, instead of large-scale works, a real-world Soulcaster would focus on small-scale ones.  Instead of creating housing for a village in a day out of essentially nothing, maybe it'll take a month or two.  Instead of ending a drought by turning a large section of rock into freshwater to drink from, maybe you're only able to create enough to survive until the drought breaks, a little bit each day.  I still say that Soulcasting remains one of the most versatile powers, and one with the greatest potential to change/help the world through non-violent methods.

I was thinking something along very similar lines myself, but didn't make the connection with aluminum.  Just because all of the artifabrians thought that Blades were fabrials (and were wrong) doesn't mean that Plate isn't, after all.  And the plate seems to work similar to the Oathgates.  I can't help but feel that we're missing an integral piece of the puzzle, though.  The old KRs seem to have been able to summon and dismiss their Plate helms at will (from Dalinar's visions, where he made specific mention of being surprised by the sudden appearance or absence twice).  Also, per Dalinar's visions, they glowed and seemed somehow...more...than present day versions.

 

1.  So let's look at Dalinar's specific case. He has a known murderer, Sadeas, in front of him. However, he also has a bunch of innocents that he must protect (bridgemen, his soldiers, his soldier's women and children, and the Alethi people as a whole). He can either abandon said innocents to their fate, or he can let the murderer walk free. Going after Sadeas in that case would be wrong, because it would mean abandoning the innocents that he has a duty to protect (civil war, Desolations, etc.)

 

 

2.  Letting Amaram go free is similar. Sure, Dalinar could probably figure out SOME way to stop Amaram. But by doing so he would potentially abandon the innocents that he has a duty to protect. He chooses, rightly, to protect the innocent, and as a consequence: Amaram goes free. If he were to go after Amaram, it would not be an outside consequence that the innocents are left unprotected. It would be an actual abandonment.

Snipped a bit from your post, and added numbers.

Towards 1: The explanations of the first ideal that we have in-book do not discuss "lesser of two evil" scenarios; they are just pretty blanket "if the journey is wrong, so is the destination."  Allowing a known murderer to walk free is always wrong.  As your example shows, there are just ways to make it so that going after said murderer is more wrong than letting them walk free.  In the same way, I believe that it's always wrong to take a life, but sometimes it's more wrong to not take that life.  Dalinar is faced with this same situation with Sadeas.  It's wrong to let him live and go free--but it's also wrong to attack, kill, or aggressively confront him.  Sadly, the First Ideal does not differentiate between these, so no matter what Dalinar does, it's in violation.

Towards 2: Dalinar knows Amaram is a liar and a thief by the end.  He has every reason to believe what Kaladin said originally.  But, the only action that Dalinar takes it to let Amaram know that he knows, and to strip him of his perfectly meaningless KR cloak.  At the time of the confrontation, Amaram is very much in the middle of Dalinar's strength.  Amaram is vulnerable, not Dalinar.  As Dalinar's army is preparing to ride off for war, the danger of provoking a conflict is even relatively minor--what's Sadeas going to do, after all?

Dalinar violates the First Ideal, multiple times.  He does it by not standing up to Sadeas after the Tower, and providing a clear and shining example of how to live (and die) a life that is virtuous, honorable, and brooks no evil.  Yes, he would have died.  Yes, his men would have died, too, and it may have fractured the Alethi kingdom.  That isn't the point, though.  The First Ideal isn't about living, or survival; it's about how you live.  Dalinar violates the First Ideal again when he lets Amaram walk free, for so very much less of a reason than he did with Sadeas.  He does so for expediency and the result he is working towards: a united people to face the Desolation.  That really only reinforces how it's a violation, though.

 

My question is, is it immoral by Alethi's standards?

I don't think so.

I can't be sure, as I do not share their standards. We know at least slavery is no problem them, and that Sadeas leaving the battlefield was not blameworthy either.

It doesn't matter what Alethi standards are; they are irrelevant to the moral code laid out by Nahodan in The Way of Kings.  

 

3) Navani's failure as a mother and matchmaker

 

Navani is clearly really bad at figuring out relationships (it took her, what, 35 years to figure out Dalinar?). Jasnah obviously is going to need a lot of help. People are helpful (especially on this forum) => lots of interest in helping Jasnah. Or 'helping', as the case may be. How can anyone see her plight and not feel compelled to assist? One cannot.

 

 

P.S. Jasnah is clearly the best scholar of the lot. I also hate Navani.

In Navani's defense, Dalinar had to significantly change first.  Presumably, she also changed, but not nearly as much as the "Bloodthirsty Warlord dominating enemies in the field transforming into the leader demanding discipline and honor from those around him."  A better example would be the lengths she went to encourage Adolin's relationship with Danlan.  Unfortunately, now this has me doubting Shallan/Adolin.  Bother...

Regardless, completely agree with everything else you said.  And your PS is just awesome.

Fascinating idea.

 

Not sure if I agree. But very thought-provoking. Thanks.

At the very least, we know that Nalan is bound by the laws of the lands he's in.  Since I forget how to do the spoiler thing, and I'm too lazy to search for it right now, I'll just be annoyingly vague.  In that one section with the awesome character, we saw the lengths that he went to in order to abide by the dictates of the land--and the consequences when the law was broken.  Also, we saw the result when the circumstances changed.

He specifically said that he wasn't concerned with whether the actions taken were good or evil.  We can assume that he had a mission or goal of some sort that he was working towards, but only within the confines of the laws.  Classic lawful neutral 

Let me clarify. How would you have wanted Kaladin to act in WoR?

If the depression, anger, fear, and backpedaling of progress that he'd made was necessary (and for which so many of you have made such persuasive arguments saying that it is, so I'm not arguing that it wasn't) then to have presented it to us in a different way--so that he wasn't just retreading what had already happened.  More meaningful interactions between him and Syl and members of Bridge 4 who didn't happen to be named Moash would gone a long way to alleviating this, I think.  A character arc that's not boiled down to "Learn to trust in myself and my friends, even though I did that once already" would have as well.

I still like Kaladin; I still think that WoR was an amazing book.  But I also think that even if his characterization was realistic and apt, it didn't serve to engag me as a reader nearly as strongly as it did the first time around in WoK--and it actively broke me out of continuing my reading binge on two separate occasions (while I'm sure work was glad that I managed to scrape together the 4 hours of sleep each time, I think that's beside the point).

Soulcasting ftw, for sure.  I mean, they're providing over 100,000 soldiers, plus their camp followers, with the necessities of life with a relatively few soulcasters.  Assuming enough gems and stormlight, it has some of the greatest potential for good in the real world.  What's that, you're starving?  Got a rock? Cool. Here's 50 pounds of boring, but nutritious, food.  Instant housing.  Oh, and you also want to be able to use it for offensive purposes? How about lightning bolts, turning someone into smoke/fire/blood/crystal?

Kaladin's character arc in WoR was almost identical to what it was in WoK, but not done as well.  It doesn't matter how logical it was, or how much sense it made, or even how necessary some of it was--the fact that it took an entire book for him to get to where he left off at the last book was boring (for a Sanderson novel, anyway; I still loved WoR and finished it in only a few days, going sleep deprived, but thankful that when my eyes were burning too much I could find a Kaladin chapter and decide to sleep instead of pushing on.) 

On the other hand, every other PoV character was either awesome (Lift is all of the win) or much improved from WoK--I even found myself liking Adolind.  I loved Shallan even more in WoR than WoK, and so I was very happy with the amount of screentime she got.

The difference between these characters and Kaladin?  Their character arcs progressed, while Kaladin just floundered. Again, maybe this was a masterful portrayal of what he was going through--but you could probably have cut out 1/3 of his scenes and not changed his arc at all.  That leaves a lot of time to get seriously annoyed with one of the main characters.  Clearly, he did something right with this character arc to have so many vocal supporters, but I'm just not seeing it.  I might have amdifferent opinion if his actions were more in keeping with Syl, rather than dismissing her arguments or ignoring her completely--up until the point he kills her.  And even then, he doesn't try to find out why, or what happened; he just mopes some more.

I always felt that his character arc in WoK was about coming to terms with himself, and learning to take responsibility for actions he takes or doesn't take.  I was just disappointed that that can also be said for WoR.