Griff

Im currently re-reading this series, about 200 pages into a wise mans fear, and just wondering with book 3 hopefully coming out next year, once that brings us up to kote/kvothe's present day is there any details on whether there will be a present day continuation of kvothe's story?

Or is day 3 and the telling of kvothe's past the end?

I found exactly one source that mentioned Yeter'el when I googled it, and it didn't seem very reliable. Could you post a link or something for where you heard about it?

like deddinty said Yeter'el is a fallen angel and father of thr nephilim mentioned in the book of enoch, as for reference i dont no how to do links but in the book Encylopedia of demons in world religions and cultures page 333,is where i found him, andfallen angels are all associated with possessio,its a long shot i admit

A while back there was a topic about the names of the Unmade, which bore a striking similarity to the names of certain beings in Christian demonology. However, there were a few names which weren't cleared up. I believe I've figured out one.

 

So, the (presumed) Unmade and their counterparts:

 

Nergaoul: Nergal. Nergal was a Mesopotamian war god, which fits with Nergaoul causing the Thrill. There are similar connections with all of them, but they were overlooked the last time.

 

Moelach: Moloch. Moloch was known for providing victory in war, in return for child sacrifices. The connections to the Diagram should be obvious.

 

Re-shephir: Resheph. Resheph was a god who was supposed to prevent disease. However, in the Bible, Resheph is portrayed as creating disease. Reshephir creates the Midnight Essence, and possibly more. The connection here is more tenuous.

 

Dai-gonarthis: Dagon. Dagon was a god of the harvest, but for a long time was mistakenly believed to be a fish god. Daigonarthis is the Black Fisher.

 

Sja-anat: Sja-anat was one of the mysteries in the previous thread. To figure out who Sja-anat was connected to, I looked at the connections. Sja-anat corrupts spren. Which being, viewed in Christianity as a demon, is known for corrupting things? The Devil, also known as Satan.

 

The one remaining Unmade of which we know is Yelig-nar, who apparently consumes his victims. Unfortunately, I was unable to find a counterpart for Yelig-nar. There are few demons whose names start with "Y", and none of them sound like Yelig-nar.

Could Yelig-nar not be Yeter'el?

He was one of the fallen angels in christian theology? He possesed people which would possibly go with Yelig-nar consuming people, since when your possesed your essentially consumed by something else?

Elhokar had people who were supposed to set a trial for them. A ruler can't do everything by himself, he delegates. Where were the scribes that were supposed to prepare the paperwork so the trial could start? What about his advisers or those handling legal processes? Surely the dungeonguards and their superiors could have taken a lttle more interest as to when was the old couple going to be trialed as Moash's grandparents died in front of their eyes.

 

Also, please you the quote button at the end of my posts, else I don't get notifications.

U assume all that was set in motion? 

The way i read it was he put them into prison denying them a trial because they would win the inquest? So therefore the fault lies with Elhokar

 

 

Kal wants to have revenge. He wants to kill Amaram for himself, which is quite different than Adolin and much more wrong. Kal wants retribution. Adolin wants to protect his family. Does he have reason to nurture murderous thoughts towards Amaram? Yes. Would he be right to act upon them? No. It would be more wrong for him to kill Amaram than it was for Adolin to kill Sadeas.

Adolin wants revenge/ vengence for what happened at the tower as well. What Kal wants is retribution for Amaram killing his friends, i dont see how you can say Kal is wrong and Adolin is right.

 

Elhokar does not deserve a death sentence because of Moash parents! He does not deserve to be punished either. He was acting king, he made a youthful mistake by trusting the wrong person. He wanted to make it right and he thought showing compassion was the right way to go. You cannot blame him for that! The culprit was Roshone and he was punished. Now was the punishment sufficient, that is another question, but killing Elhokar for this is not only misplaced, it is plain first 

degree

 murder of an innocent. It is plain vengeance and a ten times much more worst crime than Adolin or even Jasnah for that matter.

 

 

Its still Elhokars fault, being ignorant, naive or too trusting isnt an excuse for causing the deaths of two elderly people, morally Moash was right for wanting retribution, i dont think that can be questioned, did Elhokar deseve to die for it? no, but was the only justice Moash could ever get, because he was a lighteyes and a king,

 

 

I agree punishing Elhokar for Moash's parents is uncalled for. No matter how thoughtful and experienced a ruler is, they're bound to make some mistakes. 

A mistake that caused the deaths of two people isnt punishible?

When the mistake was to arrest them and leave them rot in prison til they died?

 

I have glasses and honestly, I must forget to put them on one morning out of two   Nobody makes a big deal of Renarin not wearing his glasses anymore which means he must not be completely blind without them. His prescription may be a mild one, much like mine. I do not see well without my glasses, but I can get around, heck I can even drive. It could he wished he could have good eyesight like his brother and pouf, stormlight, healing. He wanted to be a soldier, he wanted to be like his big brother, so yes I do see him wanting not to need those silly glasses anymore. Especially if they are just to correct is far away vision.

 

We see a few Thoughts about him not wearing his glasses by Adolin and Dalinar i think? About him trying to be more soldierish? i might be wrong. if he has a mild prescription than yes i could see him not needing them.

But wishing he didnt have glasses doesnt seem enough for his eyesight to heal, perception is how u see yourself not what you wish for. Therfore if he had glasses for a long time they would be part of him and part of how he percieves himself. Im not sayin its a big thing just strange imo.

 

 

I honestly do not see such evidence. Ym has expressed nothing of the first attribute of the Edgedancer which is loving. First attributes are primordial in Radiants, see how Kal, Shallan and Dalinar embody their personal first attribute? All of Ym questions have been triggered by a desire to learn things. He was a quiet listener and his shoemaker career allowed him to be very giving, something he must have worked to become. It is my theory that whereas each Radiant naturally express their first attribute, the second is something they have to work for. Much like Kal has to work to become a leader, Shallan to become honest and Dalinar to become guiding. I could former noble Ym who murdered his wife and once lived in luxury having to work to become a more giving person. It fits. The choice of running a clober's shop however does not fit an Edgedancer. On the other hand, Lift tendency to eas fancy meals into fancy houses, fits.

The definition of learned is " a person who acquired much knowledge through study" i wouldnt consider collecting street urchins stories as that, but it fits the second ideal of the Edgedancers, 

You make some good points though. Although i dont think Kal needed to learn leadership he seems a natural leader. 

Personnally i dont think Adolin was wrong to kill Sadeas in the slightest, Sadeas had betrayed Dalinar trying to get him and Adolin killed and being the cause of 6000 deaths(roughly i think) of Dalinars men. He also attempted to have Dalinar assassinated, there is more than enough reason for Adolin to rightly kill Sadeas,

Was it legal? No. But it was Right

For what Sadeas had done in the past and for what he would do in future. 

Adolin thought of killing Sadeas a number of times the breaking point came when he realised that Sadeas would never stop causing strife, and disent amongst the Highprinces, while it was done in a "i lost my temper" type moment it doesnt change the fact it was righteous retibution for past crimes.

Sadeas was very likely to powerful to ever be legally prosocuted aswel hence why the initial attempt at getting him to duel Adolin in the first place and not just arreasting him.

On kal which i saw a few people mention he had as much reason to kill Amaram as Adolin had to kill Sadeas,maybe more in truth, since Amaram basically robbed him, killed his friends and put him into slavery, 

On Moash, i dont blame him for wanting vengence on Elhokar either, whether through incompetence, naivety or whatever he was still responsible for the deaths of his grandparents, so if justice was justice then Elhokar should of bin punished regardless, but he wasnt.

Graves used Moash wish for vengence to manipulate him in my opinion.

The Alethi lighteyes are fairly corrupt and darkeyes dont seem to get justice.

If Kal killed Amaram and Moash killed Elhokar it would be wrong legally but morally i dont think you could truely say they would be wrong to do so, in societies where the criminal system favours one group over the other than people must seek there own justice 

Righteous retribution really.

This will probably not be a popular opinion but i think each is justified on the grounds that they cant have justice any other way. Therefore they are faced with the person getting away with it or doing something about it themselves.

Legally right and morally right are not the same thing.

 

 

Also, I don't think healing someone else is the logical progression of healing yourself. If you are a good cook, that means you can prepare nice meals not that you can touch someone and turn them into a good cook as well. The mechanism of healing yourself and healing others is different and only a limited amount of surgebinders are capable of healing others, but all can heal themselves. It was important to see the surge of re-growth. It foreshadows what Lift did and foreshadowing is something Brandon does often.

First think i thought of when we first seen Kal heal himself was I wonder can he heal others or if different order of Knights could, so to me was a logical step.

 

 

You are a different person. I seldom think about my glasses despite wearing them from the moment I wake up in the morning until I go to sleep. I really don't understand why it is such an issue for you that Ren healed his eyesight. Just accept it and move on.

You dont think about your glasses but you know you need them, the hole routine of waking up-putting on your glasses is ingrained in you and a part of who you are, you dont think deep down "i dont need glasses" and as such same applies to Renarin, Do you see what i mean?

 

That was not a vision of the future. What Dalinar sees is a recording and the monologue is always the same. Dalinar saw a vision in which Tanavast talked about the possible future, but Dalinar did not see a vision of the future like Renarin did. Dalinar does not see the future, he sees the messages Tanavast has left in the past, therefor all Dalinar sees is past.

 

He didnt see a vision of the future like Renarin but Tanavast showed him the future he feared which is a possible future, just like Renarin(presumebly) sees a possible future.

 

 

That being said, I agree it's prematurely to put Ym as a Truthwatcher in coppermind when it's not canon yet. But I think there is more evidence to that than you give it credit. The other times someone (including) spren has talked about using light, it was about Illumination, Ym gives shoes in exchange of learning a story and this fits the attributes quite well. Also, as I said, I strongly disagree Ym's spren was like Wyndle.

Thats the only point i was trying to make. And i agree having read your points in this post that there was more evidence than i at first thought, but fact remains an there is equal arguable evidence that he is possibly an Edgedancer.

 

 

I would have no issues with Ym's Coppermind entry having a [disputed] or [speculation] tag next to where it says he's probably a Truthwatcher. That said, it's pretty clear from the section itself that Ym being a Truthwatcher is not confirmed and that it's speculation.

Since its not confirmed/canon then if he is in the truthwatcher section as u described there than he should also be in the Edgedancer section in the same vain, since both sides could actually be argued, or else in neither, thats all im trying to say.

Personally i believe he is a Truthwatcher but there is the possibility that he isnt, 

 

Lift isn'tt different because she heals, she's different because she's partly in the cognitive realm. Healing someone else is a huge stretch from what we've seen in WoK, it's completely different. Passive healing ability possessed by all Radiants vs specific healing surge limited to two Orders. Assuming healing yourself is like healing others is a fallacy.

 

i didnt say she was different because she heals i repeatedly pointed out she is different because she is in the cognitive realm, thus Yms interlude is to highlight how different she is because of that. And i dont agree that healing some1 else is a huge stretch from healing we see in WOK, its a logical progression.

 

He could have seen the result of the two storms colliding and falsely concluded they were going to die. He was in the middle of this huge event, so may be he could see himself or may be he he saw others and thought his fate would be the same. Seeing major world events isn't the same as seeing yourself, so don't assume seeing yourself in the middle of a huge event means you can foresee your own future.

 

Yes he could of, but he becomes histerical screaming we are all gonna die, if he didnt see there deaths than by common sense there was a chance for survival, and if thats the case wouldnt of screamed we are all gonna die and maybe of been more use at the oathgate, so logical thing is he saw them die.

 

You also seem to assume just because Renarin saw it happen it has to. Foresight might deal with the likeliest courses of the future. That doesn't make it the only outcome. 

 

We do not know what Renarin saw. We don't know how foresight works or how accurate it is. 

No i dont think anything Renarin sees will definately happen, being honest if the Truthwatchers do possess forsight i would think they glimpse the voidbringers/odiums( since we are constantly told seeing the future is of them) plans/ goals and try interpret them to find hidden truth in them.

 

 

His blood weakness is part of his self image, whereas the glasses weren't. Again, Lopen regrew his arm after 10+ years.

Lopen also made rude gestures with his missing arm so easy to see that happening, and with renarin why would the blood weakness be part of him an not his eyesight? Waking up every day and putting on his glasses for how many years? And there not part of his self image he doesnt see himself as needing them? Bit much in my opinion.

 

 

Dalinar never had a vision of the future.

At the end of WOK(i think) he gets a vision and asks is it the future and the stormfather says its what he fears but he isnt good at seeing the future thats more Cultivation. That is a vision of the future, the future Tanavast feared, worse case scenario of the future.

@ maxal

 

 

I happen to believe Ym's habit of collecting children's stories fit quite well into that description. Knowledge does not have to be about the workings of the world or fabrials or Desolations or philosophy: knowledge of people is also a way to be learned. Basically, a learned person knows a lot about one or more subjects which can apply to Ym.

It fits the second ideal of the Edgedancers too, which is why i dont think it can be used as evidence he is a Truthwatcher.

 

Also, I have noticed our Radiants (bar Kaladin) all seem to have an bigger affinity with one of their surges. Shallan clearly mastersIllumination, but cannot light a stick with Transformation. Jasnah has mastered Transformation, but is struggling with Transportation. Kaladin, well, we have yet to see Kaladin fail at something, despite all his self-bashing   I therefore suspect Ym had a bigger affinity with Progression than with Illumination, quite the opposite of Renarin who seems to be using the later greatly (visions of the future are most probably a side product of Illumination). It is not impossible for Ym to not have mastered or experienced much the same aspects of Truthwatchers Renarin did.

 

This is a good point. When we see lift she has mastered friction but not progression(healing) and at the end we she her use it thus the link to Ym and how very different the ability of being partially in the cognitive realm makes her.

Arguement can be made either way.

 

As for Renarin, I would not see him into any other orders, truth to be tell. We have not yet seen how the learned attribute expresses itself in him, but I suspect we will. However, we can theorized a little boy prevented from learning to fight like all the other boys would cope by spending his time... learning stuff.

 

As for the blood sickness, personally, I think most of the problem is in between Renarin's ears, imo it is not physical. I know Kaladin diagnostic him a certain form of epilepsy (yeah right as if such diagnostic could be made just after a 2 minutes conversation, so I give little value to Kaladin's words), but I have since wondered if Renarin's sickness was not in fact a blockage he has. It always comes forward when there is fighting involved and never at other occasions. In fact, we practically do not see the sickness except in battle situation where Renarin has to hold sword and do something. I am therefore thinking there is nothing wrong with him physically, but mentally, each time he takes the sword, his body revolves by sending a fit. Some sort of protection mechanism, probably linked to his autism, but not something stormlight can "heal" as there is nothing to "heal".

I couldnt see him in any other order either personally i dont think he should of been made a radiant atal, yes it was the only progression of the character but because of how it was done/revealed it felt like a bit of a let down (same as dalinar) it just fell flat, was a oh for gods sake moment.

As for his blood weakness definately something funny going on there, as for his autism hes barely on the scale and no one would of noticed if not for a WOB.

Im not arguing Ym isnt a Truthwatcher just dont think there is enough evidence for it to be on the wiki yet.

 

 

Lift is still too young and her personality is yet to develop. She's mouthy, so she could get eloquent in time, she has it in her. She's fascinated by 'rich people's' atuff and lifestyle, which seems fitting for an Edgedancer. She thought when sliding on the floor to safe her life that her 'pose was not particularly dignifying', she has a small-picture kind of thinking that Nalan described as typical for her Order, she remembered a forgotten boy and went back to save him instead of run for her life (the bigger picture). She fits quite well the description of her Order and I expect her stay in the palace to let her shine in full Edgedancer manner. (Unlike Kal who probably wouldn't dress fancy even if his life depended on it.)

You make a good point here i agree with bits of it as for the end of it about her stayin etc who knows?

 

 

Ym is esoteric - being religious counts imo. He is a learned man as he is quite the shoemaker and he is also giving. Keep in mind that we don't know how credible in-world WoR is, so not fitting the description is not really an issue.

His belief in his religion doesnt make him esoteric, its the irali( spelt wrong i think) religion meaning a whole peoples religion so dont see how that makes him esoteric.

I term learned refers to scholorship etc so i dont see that the same as you, 

 

The healing we saw in WoK is not part of the Progression surge. We saw Kal healing his own wounds with passive stormlight related ability, not Kaladin actively healing anyone else with the surge of re-growth. It's different. Brandon is all about foreshadowing and he usually shows things he plans on using latter on in key events. We saw Shallan Ligthweaving before she needed it to escape the ship or convince the deserters. We saw Kal surgebinding before he used it to save Bridge Four and Dalinar. We see re-growth before it saves a key character who then saves a future main character. It's about foreshadowing.

 

Yes but as i said in the previous post we saw healing(oneself) early in WOK so healing some1 else isnt a stretch, so no real need to show Ym do it before Lift really,

Second part i see what you mean but couldnt it be done to show how special/different Lifts ability is forshadowing that?

 

 

We have no idea what he actually saw, we only read his interpretation. While it is a good point against the Truthwatcher theory that Ym didn't seem to have visions of the future, we simply do not have enough information.

We see Renarin yelling we are all gonna die or something similiar which would imply he saw them die or saw them not surviving which is the same thing so not a stretch to say he saw them die, also strange we didnt see his spren u have to admit?

And as you said we dont have enough information which is why it shouldnt be on the wiki yet.

 

 

t doesn't matter how long. Lopen had one arm since childhood, but he was able to grow himself another one. Kal only has his slave brands for a little over a year, yet he thinks they are part of him. I personally seldom think about my glasses, so I'd hazard stormlight would heal my eyesight as well because I do not think of myself as someone with bad eyesight.

Renarin constantly states how his blood weakness stops him being a soldier etc he seems to mope about it quiet actively so when he sees himself like that yet doesnt see himself as needing glasses? Doesnt fit in my opinion.

I also wear glasses an see them as part of who i am i have had them since childhood and wouldnt ever see myself as without needing them.

 

 

What do you mean Ren had Dalinar's visions? Ren only saw the coming of the everstorm. At any rate seeing the past was ok unlike seeing the future. They even discussed it in WoK that it's fine so long as Dalinar's visions were only of the past. It is logical to you to accept both kind of visions, but they are different in nature much like healing yourself with stormlight is not like healing someone with re-growth. Accepting visions of the past doesn't mean you accept visions of the future.

 Dalinar also had a vision(s) of the future, Renarin had access to all the information regarding Dalinars visions  Therefore his ability to see the everstorm isnt without precedent and since his father had them and trusted them yet Renarin didnt says something more i think then religious taboo.

 

 

That data about the Edgedancers is from in-world WoR, not Lift. Being born a noble doesn't mean you automatically like expensive things. Ym hadn't save money for anything fancy, so I say he wasn't interested in fancy things. Else he'd at least charge people.

I no it came from in-world text i was pointing out how lift doesnt fit it so saying Ym doesnt isnt a confirming fact that he isnt an Edgedancer, because he doesnt fit the in world text about Truthwatchers either in my opinion

 

 

Ym had only five spheres, how is that a successful 

businessman

?

if i remember correctly it says he always has 5 spheres in that drawer, does that mean thats all he has?? he owns a shop so in my opinion easy to infer that he obviously has more, that just how much he leaves out for viewing when the urchins, also says was robbed twice which means he replaced them as many times and didnt seem like he struggled to do that did it?

 

The interlude is not pointless. It did some world-building (new religion and town), we saw a new kind of spren and the surge of re-growth before Lift used it, thus we are introduced to the healing ability before it is used to solve a problem, so it doesn't feel like it came from nowhere. Also, we learned a lot about Nalan, so it's not a surprise for the reader he wants to kill Lift.

 

There is foreshadowing Ren's going to be a Radiant like his glasses and the problems with his Blade. From a meta-text perspective becoming a Radiant was the natural progression of his character. Giving the description of the Truthwatchers, it wasn't unpredictable which Order he'd be, but I admit I didn't expect Ren to be a Truthwatcher.

So you think that makes more sence then showing how different/special Lift is?

We were introduced to healing early in WOK, so showing it as healing some1 else isnt a stretch so no need to show Ym do it before Lift.

As for Renarins glasses i dont see how his eyesight healed being honest as healing via stormlight has to do with perception and dont see how Renarin saw himself as not needing glasses after years of having them.

 

 

Renarin didn't saw anything about himself as far as we know, so why would Ym? There's little on foresight, but it predicted one major world event and nothing of personal matter, so I'd hazard the Truthwatcher either has to be more experienced or there are limitations preventing one from knowing their destiny.

Renarin saw them all dying, hence his histericalness and generally lack of usefulness at the oathgate.If he could see him and all Dalinars men dying doesnt it stand to reason that Ym would see his own death? He certainly seemed more advanced and more in control then Renarin if indeed he is a Truthwatcher?

 

 

Renarin starts with seeing the future - something forbidden and blasphemous in Alethkar, associated with the Voidbringers. It's completely natural he wasn't accepting it and Glyss probably had memory problems, so he couldn't explain anything (like Syl in the beginning of WoK), because their bond was relatively new. Ym on the other hand has no such upbringing and a talking spren didn't bother him.

I understand where your coming from but Renarin also had dalinars visions( some in the past some the future) so wasnt without presedent really, it doesnt explain away his lack of trust toward the spren in my opinion but until we get a POV we wont no for certain.

 

It doesn't say luxury anywhere, but they are supposed to be the most refined and very demanding, so I figure preference for expensive things is common for Edgedancers. Theymoved gracefully and were articulate and refined, which sounds to me like the Edgedancers being (or at least) acting like nobles. It's possible to interpret their description differently, however this is my reading of it.

 

I understand what you are saying and why but that is at odds with Lift the known Edgedancer as much as it is with Ym, Ym was a "noble" but lost his wealth,so quiet likely he is refined and likes expensive things, i dont think we see enough of Ym to say he wasnt how you describe.

 

 

People that get labeled as strange are usually not the popular crowd and someone who doesn't fit is more or less an outsider like Renarin and Kaladin's father. I am under the impression people went to Ym only when they needed shoes and he has a rather lonely/isolated lifestyle

I didnt get this impression of Ym atal, seemed to me like a successfulish buisnessman (cobbler shop) who gives bk by helping street urchins, 

An old man trying to make things better for the forgtten kids.

 

 

Ym did talk, but what he wanted was to learn the boy's story, so Ym had a preference to listen rather than talk.

I think that was more in line with the second ideal of the Edgedancers and his religion than it is with the attribute "learned" of the Truthwatchers,

I dont see any similaritys with Renarin being honest. 

And which makes more sence writing Yms interlude to show how Lifts ability is so special/different?

Or to have a pointless interlude showing a truthwatcher before Renarin claims to be one? There is no forshadowing in that, but with lift there is, at least thats my opinion,

And if he was a Truthwatcher would he not of saw his own death coming? If foresight is a ability of theirs? 

Also does it not say something that Renarin doesnt trust his spren thinking its all in his mind and that Ym imediately does??

 

 

The Knights of each Orders have specific personalities, so it is relevant that Ym didn't refer to things described as common for Edgedancers such as luxury and elegance.

Where is it said Edgedancers like luxury and elegance? i must of missed that.

 

 

Both Ren and Ym tend to listen instead of talk (to analyze others), both are outsiders, people find them strange, both have specific and somewhat limited interests (fabrials and shoemaking), both make others uncomfortable. 

Ym did plenty of talking in his interlude, and explaining (the one religion) 

I dont see how you can say Ym is an outsider see little evidence of that.

The boy found it strange that Ym didnt charge for shoes probably thought it was a trick an Ym wasnt as he seemed,going to take advantage of him or something like that, which would explain why was uncomfortable an at the end the boy doesnt seem uncomfortable or that Ym is strange atal.

Being a cobbler is his profession i wouldnt say that limited his interests, plus having limited interest doesnt fit with him gathering stories from children but fits perfectly with the second ideal of the Edgedancers " i will remember those who have bin forgetten" and whose more forgotten than street urchins?

I take your point with Rock but think he would of mentioned it to Kaladin.

 

 

There's basically nothing similar between Wyndle and Ym's spren except for the fact that they both "grow", which is explained by them both sharing the Growth Surge.

The way they move is similiar in my opinion, think described quiet closely.

The lights as i said could be the crystals Lift sees on wyndle.

We actually have no idea how Lifts ability to see into the cogitive aspect changes how wyndle is viewed/seen. Evidence suggests they are totally different in either realm as Swimmingly noted.

 

 

Chapter icons can be important, but I've already noted that Kaladin gets Vedeledev when he heals people, and Ym got Vedeledev for healing the urchin. So the icons are important here, they just don't show us the right order.

 

 

I also find it interesting Ym's chapter has double Vedel icon. When Kal has two Jezrien, he does something super Windrunnerish.

I agree with aleksiel here which is why i feel the chapter icon is important.

 

The Truthwatchers learn, or as Renarin puts it, "see". Ym gathering stories fits in with that quite well.

 

And as for Lift, yes, Lift doesn't fit the Edgedancers' stereotypes, so Ym doesn't have to fit the Truthwatcher's stereotypes. That's the point I was making.

The Truthwatchers are described as learned and givng which would fit Ym but learned to be me would mean scholarly.

 

 

Ym is hard to understand, and his religion is very weird. That's why I think esoteric fits him very well.

I dont think he was hard to understand and his religion wasnt as weird as vorinism its actually a pretty simple concept.

 

 

didn't care about Edgedancer things like 'rich people's food', expensive clothes or doors, and he didn't think anything like Lift in the lines of 'the pose wasn't particularly dignifying'. Overall prestige, luxury, looks and the like weren't part of Ym's PoV. Ym cared whether or not the shoes fit perfectly, not about making them look nice.

I dont think this is an arguement that he couldnt be an Edgedancer, Lif is a child with an interesting view of the world.

And at the same time Ym is nothin like Renarin.

I would actually say he is more like Lift then Renarin.

Im not saying he is an edgedancer and not a truthwatcher i just dont think there is enough evidence for it to be on the wiki.

Interestingly as well we dont see Rock comment on Renarins spren which is off topic but strange in my opinion.

Also think it makes more sense if Yms interlude is to highlight just how different and special Lifts ability to see in the cognitive realm is rather then anything to do with Renarin claiming to be a Truthwatcher.

Has any1 asked Brandon about Yms spren??

Ps i dont no how to do the quote things properly sorry

QUESTION

Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from wind— from honorspren.

Why does this discount the possibility that they are the same spren? Lift is partially in the cognitive realm which allows for the difference.

Ym's spren is described as "specks of light" WOR pg 171, on the same pg it says " it moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their borrows. When it moved again,those withdrew."

On pg 177 says "the little spren moved along beside him"

".. a thin, twisting trail of vines grew out of the darkness and approached Lift. It looked like a little stream of spilled water picking its way across the floor. Here and there, bits of clear crystal peeked out of the vines, like sections of quartz in otherwise dark stone. Those weren’t sharp, but smooth like polished glass, and didn’t glow with Stormlight. The vines grew super-fast, curling about one another in a tangle that formed a face."

They move similarily no where does it say Yms spren "floats" it says slinks across the workbence which is the same as wyndle. 

Yes the crystals dont glow to Lift but she is in the cognitive realm partially, sinec Ym isnt that might be how the spren is seen in just the physical.

" And, conveniently, the Truthwatchers have Illumination and Growth, and Ym's spren is a growing light."

If this is accurate shouldnt a glowing light be more relevent to Lightweavers? Pattern doesnt glow. 

As for your points

Chapter icons can be important though.

I dont think that fits with the truthwatchers atal

Lift isnt "a thing of beauty" nor articulate either.

Where is the evidence Yms spren wasnt confined to the ground?

Ym does not seem esoteric atal. Esoteric is defined as "Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest:" and "only taught to or understood by members of a special group : hard to understand"

That could easily of meant to mean use the stormlight tho Edgedancer. Dont see how illumination would of helped him against "Nalan? Darkness" givien how "Taln" reacts to Shallen using it in front of him

This topic has more then likely been brought up before but having just finished a re-read of WOR and having a nose through the coppermind wiki, i think Ym should be removed from the Truthwatcher section. 

We have no evidence that he is a Truthwatcher, and there is seemingly more evidence that he is in fact an Edgedancer.

Im not saying either way that he is one or the other but if you look at the evidence i think it is premature to label him as a truthwatcher.

Evidence of Edgedancer:

1. Ym's chapter icons are of Vedeledev who is the Herald associated with the Edgedancers

2. “ I will remember those who have been forgotten.”— The Second Ideal of the Edgedancers^[3]                                       Fits with his looking for the stories of the children instead of charging for his shoes. 

3.Historically there are referred to as: The most articulate and refined of the radiants. They were considered things of beauty. But would also ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things as some would see it.

Example of this again is looking for stories of individuals over worldly concerns  (i admit this could be more due to the religion of the one). 

4. Ym's spren is quite like Lifts spren if you think about it. Lift is partially in the cognitive realm and hence why she would she wyndle differently. The crystals Lift sees on wyndle could be the lights of Ym's spren and all that is visible without Lifts special ability.

5. Truthwatchers are described as: Silent and secretive most of the time and were considered esoteric. This doesnt seem to fit Ym in my opinion.

Evidence of Truthwatcher:

1. Only evidence i see of this is Ym's spren doesn't resemble Lifts spren. Which i described above.

The Divine attributes of Paliah (Truthwatchers) are learned and giving.

The divine attributes of Vedeledev (Edgedancers) are loving and healing

Either ones could be argued so that is why i left them out.

The point of Yms interlude could be to illustrate just how special Lifts ability actually is and the differences this ability allows her.

As i said earlier im not arguing that Ym is an Edgedancer and not a Truthwatcher. He might well prove to be a Truthwatcher i just think having him on the Truthwatcher section of the coppermind wiki is premature and misleading to a degree and should be changed until it is confirmed as he fits Edgedancers more then Truthwatchers.

Any thoughts are welcome i might have missed something.

1. Malazan book of the fallen

2. The broken empire

3. The traitor son cycle/ kingskiller chronicle

4. The dagger and the coin

5. Stormlight archive (on the list for its potential only 2 so far out of 10 books so hard to include/ exclude, great start )

If a hearld is killed during a desolation he goes somewhere to be tortured, maybe when he returns for the next desolation he reappears where he was killed.

Taln was killed defending a pass near a northern waterway, so what if he was killed in the water and reappeared in the water? or waterway shifted from where it had been and he landed in it?

Would explain why was wet, also would explain why arrived at kholinar, an not any other location,

Also is there a WoB that all the hearlds were lighteyes? or is that an assumption?

Finally as per the blade, WoB is that Hoid did not switch the blade, so is it possible that Bordin was the one who switched it?

Or was it one of the blades that Adolin won in his duels that Dalinar bonded?

In book one the prologue was Szeth and the flashback sequence was Kaladin, Both technically wind runners (yes I no Szeth has an honour blade)
Connection is there tho.

Book 2 prologue is Jasnah and flashback sequence is Shallan,
Shallen is Jasnahs ward.

So again the connection is there between the prologue character and flashback character. Since there is only 2 books I might be reading to much into this but could be a trend,

What do ye think?

So book 3 (Szeths) be a skybreaker we dont no is one yet, or a parshendi who hired him.

Book 4 (Eshonai) I think will be Gaviliar, since he told them of his plans to bring bk the parshendi gods at the feast,

Book 5 (Dalinar) will be a Herald, we didnt spot at the feast, since thats the break point of the series,

Thoughts?

Edit: Downvoted for this?

To be honest I just think he had poor eyesight, if he was trying to blur the world as lifts awesomeness says then why would he stop wearing them all of a sudden? Wouldnt make sense to suddenly do that.

We know seeing the future is of the voidbringers/odium, so I think the point of the truthwatchers is to actually find snippets of truth in the future, maybe by seeing what odium wants them to see but looking for hidden truth in the visions etc

That would explain why in his vision he saw them all die, but day didnt, they somehow tap in to odiums future sight, but because Renarin is so inexperienced he saw it as the definite future instead of takin it as odiums goal and findin hidden expects of truth in the vision,

I could be way off with that.

I agree Lirin would make a good truthwatcher, but I just dont see him being one and dont think glasses are the connection for truthwatchers like you said,

Also Ym's eyesight didnt heal like Renarins did which is strange, considering he was actively using stormlight so one would presume was ahead of Renarin in ability, an as how one sees themselves plays a big part in SA than that strikes me as strange as Renarin hardly saw himself as not needing glasses,

Lirin is the only other character I recall having glasses, if glasses are a sign/ foreshadowing of a truthwatcher than by that theory Lirin is one which I doubt,

Thanks again moogle il try get my hands on what u recommended and have a look through what u suggested,

Thanks

thanks i taut was missing something, since lot of info out there i havent come across, most of the info comes from Q &A's so does it?

where can I get shadows for silence in the forest of hell? doesnt come on on amazon, im in ireland by the way,

Okay, so here is my query, I have read:

Elantris

The emperors soul

Mistborn triolgy

the alloy of war

Way ok kings

Words of radiance

Warbreaker,

Am I missing any cosmere related books/novellas etc? and if so where can I get them?

Reason I ask is there seems alot of info around about different things that I havent come across in the books ie

Hoid getting to the well of ascension before vin,

any info on 17th shard besides the letter in way of kings,

the planet yolen I see mentioned

shards explained

adolinisim (spelt wrong I apologise) bar a little in mistborn which doesnt really count because mentioned more in passing

Thanks for any info in advance