Adolin and Maya

[Calderis he/him]

33 minutes ago, Bremen said:

I've felt for awhile that the "extra" is that the spren needs to choose the person. A bond can't just be forced on them, even if they're a deadeyes (perhaps a Bondsmith could get around this?). Given the events of Oathbringer I think it is a safe assumption that Maya has choosen Adolin.

Also I do not trust WoB on this issue at all. If Adolin does revive Maya then he can't just tell us about it ahead of time. He wants to save that for the actual book.

Agreed on all counts.

Which is why I still stand by the first sign of the process of her healing wasn't her speaking her name, or anything in the Physical. 

It was when she attacked the Fused to protect him. It as the first time she did something of her own volition. 

[ftl]

Actually, that could contribute to the reason to why reviving deadeyes hasn't been done before.

Something with having to form the bond in the Cognitive realm rather than the Physical realm, because of some sort of realmatic jiggery-pokery. Or something with the perpendicularity to help, maybe the bond needs to be made via the spiritual realm which has to be closer.

Basically, something in all the new Realmatic discoveries has to contribute to making the healing work, otherwise it would make no sense why it's literally never happened before. (But of course, since it's a Spren bond, Adolin doing his part of the bond and acting like a Radiant probably also has to contribute.)

[+Bliev she/her]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Agreed on all counts.

Which is why I still stand by the first sign of the process of her healing wasn't her speaking her name, or anything in the Physical. 

It was when she attacked the Fused to protect him. It as the first time she did something of her own volition. 

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't something analogous to Syl's choosing Kal over the SF's objections. Maya must choose to risk herself for him (since that's what bonding requires), but in this case, it's not the SF's permission that must be granted, but his powers, to fully heal the damage. I really like the idea of this being the opposite, even, such that spren heal human spirit webs, and  must risk themselves to do so by entering into the physical realm; to heal a spren "spirit web", a human must enter into the cognitive realm and risk themselves or the bond not "taking". 

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, Bliev said:

@Pathfinder I concede the point on this. I think you're likely right about the oath-breaking. But I don't know how they could have coordinated the plan without the spren knowing. Unless they did know and fought it the whole way. 

So first I just want to say I did not post that to try and sway you to my side of thinking, or to try to say you were wrong and I was right. I only explained my theory in spoiler tags because @ftl asked me to. You can totally disagree and I wish you luck! But to respond to your question regarding my theory, that was my point. The spren did know their knights were going to kill them, and based on the information I referenced, I feel were powerless to stop them. The bond needs both knight and spren to agree to break it, for the spren to survive after. If the knight intended to kill their spren, then the spren could not break the bond and save itself because that very act would kill itself anyway. Knights so long as they truly believe in what they are doing is in line with their oaths, will have their powers. And finally knights can break the first oath just by walking away from it and kill their spren. So what I posit is that the knights decided to kill their spren, against the spren's wishes. They went to whatever location they decided to do it at, and made the conscious choice to walk away from the first oath, killing their spren. That I think it is more of a stretch for myself, that a group of bonded spren could keep the knowledge that "they were in on it" a secret from the rest of spren society. But to each their own. 

12 hours ago, Bliev said:

@DeployParachute I love Adolin's genuine niceness. It's such a nice change to have a person who is just...good and whole. Who has had hard things happen and is still mostly okay. I see a lot of folks really annoyed with Adolin and all, but man, I just identify so hard with him. I don't think he'll easily revive Maya, and I  agree with Pathfinder that it will take something more than his grit and plucky tenacity to do so, but I am really invested (pun not intended) in their journey together. 

So just to clarify my theory, and I will do so further on, but I absolutely think Adolin's actions regarding Maya has strengthened what I call the faux bond (the bond with the dead shardblade). That strengthened bond does not heal nor revive Maya, but creates the stronger link/scaffolding that Dalinar can use via his connection manipulation and investiture. Basically Dalinar can manipulate investiture regardless who it is Connected to (as we see when he strengthens Shallan's illusions). So basically what I am saying is, Dalinar would "fill in" the space torn out of Maya with investiture, using the strengthened faux bond as a guide, and term the new investiture "Maya" via connection, thereby restoring her. 

11 hours ago, Bremen said:

I've felt for awhile that the "extra" is that the spren needs to choose the person. A bond can't just be forced on them, even if they're a deadeyes (perhaps a Bondsmith could get around this?). Given the events of Oathbringer I think it is a safe assumption that Maya has choosen Adolin.

So my answer has to deal with an excerpt from Rhythm of War that was released in the newsletter, so suffice it to say that will have to wait till it is released in the "wild"

11 hours ago, Bremen said:

Also I do not trust WoB on this issue at all. If Adolin does revive Maya then he can't just tell us about it ahead of time. He wants to save that for the actual book.

Totally respect that is where you are coming from. I disagree, but I wish you luck!

6 hours ago, ftl said:

Actually, that could contribute to the reason to why reviving deadeyes hasn't been done before.

Something with having to form the bond in the Cognitive realm rather than the Physical realm, because of some sort of realmatic jiggery-pokery. Or something with the perpendicularity to help, maybe the bond needs to be made via the spiritual realm which has to be closer.

Basically, something in all the new Realmatic discoveries has to contribute to making the healing work, otherwise it would make no sense why it's literally never happened before. (But of course, since it's a Spren bond, Adolin doing his part of the bond and acting like a Radiant probably also has to contribute.)

Could very well be. Regarding my theory, it is because as per WoB, breaking their oaths resulting in killing their spren was pretty much never heard of before. When the knights broke their oaths, there were no other bondsmiths, and Melishi could have very well been part of the decision for all we know. If my theory that a bondsmith is needed to revive a spren bond, and there has not been a bondsmith in years and years, then that would qualify for it being thought impossible. They never experienced spren death like that before, and the only way to do it, wasn't even around any longer to test/check. Especially since it looks like the only spren that could produce a bondsmith were so pissed at the humans for doing what they did. But I could totally see Dalinar's now bond with the stormfather connected to Tanavast's cognitive shadow being the bit extra that never was before, resulting in Dalinar able to do so. 

33 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't something analogous to Syl's choosing Kal over the SF's objections. Maya must choose to risk herself for him (since that's what bonding requires), but in this case, it's not the SF's permission that must be granted, but his powers, to fully heal the damage. I really like the idea of this being the opposite, even, such that spren heal human spirit webs, and  must risk themselves to do so by entering into the physical realm; to heal a spren "spirit web", a human must enter into the cognitive realm and risk themselves or the bond not "taking". 

So as I said above, I totally feel Adolin has strengthened the bond. In my opinion, just like Dalinar did with Oathbringer. So I believe Maya saving Adolin reflects the strengthening of the faux bond, not actual "healing".

However I think it should be stated and admitted that we know that dead eyes naturally always go to where their sword wielders are. That does not speak of any particular devotion or connection with the wielder. That we have never seen how a dead eyes interacts with their sword wielder in the cognitive realm. So for all we know, what Maya did could be completely and perfectly natural for a dead eye to act with any wielder. That the moment mentioned, is not extraordinary, or unique whatsoever. 

Basically the moment where Maya saves Adolin could just as easily have meant nothing for all we know. I do not think that is the case (as I explained above), but I acknowledge the possibility that Maya saving Adolin being meaningless could be just as possible. 

[+Bliev she/her]

Oh, no, @Pathfinder, I really appreciate you posting those WOBs. I have a hard time keeping up with them all (if they're not in Shardcast haha) and I love the info, even if it means I'm wrong! I totally agree with you on that now, actually. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So just to clarify my theory, and I will do so further on, but I absolutely think Adolin's actions regarding Maya has strengthened what I call the faux bond (the bond with the dead shardblade). That strengthened bond does not heal nor revive Maya, but creates the stronger link/scaffolding that Dalinar can use via his connection manipulation and investiture. Basically Dalinar can manipulate investiture regardless who it is Connected to (as we see when he strengthens Shallan's illusions). So basically what I am saying is, Dalinar would "fill in" the space torn out of Maya with investiture, using the strengthened faux bond as a guide, and term the new investiture "Maya" via connection, thereby restoring her. 

In terms of this, I actually agree re: Dalinar's role in this (the newsletter interlude shored this up for me for sure). I think that how Maya acted in and since Shadesmar *is* unique to their strengthened bond, as well, and that there is some inversion there with how spren fill in broken human spirit webs and how Adolin might (with Dalinar's help), fill in Maya's. 

[DeployParachute]

15 hours ago, Bliev said:

@DeployParachute I love Adolin's genuine niceness. It's such a nice change to have a person who is just...good and whole. Who has had hard things happen and is still mostly okay. I see a lot of folks really annoyed with Adolin and all, but man, I just identify so hard with him. I don't think he'll easily revive Maya, and I  agree with Pathfinder that it will take something more than his grit and plucky tenacity to do so, but I am really invested (pun not intended) in their journey together. 

It's not just about "Adolin being too nice". It's about the complete lack of challenges this character faces that force him to look upon his actions, his motivations, and his behaviors to determine where he is deficient, where he needs to change. There is nothing he needs growth on. You said it yourself: he is "whole". Due to this, and his current status and import in the narrative, were he to receive this "powerup", both in terms of physical and magical power as well as narrative influence (in the form of reviving Maya and potentially becoming Radiant), without being accompanied by a deep challenge to his personal stakes or behaviors or dare I say it...character, then it cheapens the narrative. It cheapens the narrative in a way that does a disservice to all the other better written characters working through their struggles, and having to find ways to live with their flaws, and journey on in spite of them.

There are far more minor characters that have more going on internally than Adolin does. Brandon is obviously a very experienced and accomplished writer, and I can think of no logical excuse for why he has short changed Adolin's character potential so much unless he plans on Adolin not being around for much longer.

I get that you identify with him, as do many other people. He's written in a way that it would be impossible for him to not be liked. (Another point in favor that he's been marked by Brandon as the sacrificial lamb). However, the measure of a good character is not made based solely on their relatability, imo. I'm fine with the way Adolin is written if he dies, for then the way he was written makes more sense. I am not fine with how Adolin is written, if he is just going to continue to not face any personal challenges to his behavior or beliefs, but instead continues to be rewarded just by being...himself. How droll, how boring. It would be a completely avoidable black mark on a narrative that, for the most part, has had very stellar character drama.

Edited October 15, 2020 by DeployParachute

[+Bliev she/her]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

I get that you identify with him, as do many other people. He's written in a way that it would be impossible for him to not be liked. (Another point in favor that he's been marked by Brandon as the sacrificial lamb). However, the measure of a good character is not made based solely on their relatability, imo. I'm fine with the way Adolin is written if he dies, for then the way he was written makes more sense. I am not fine with how Adolin is written, if he is just going to continue to not face any personal challenges to his behavior or beliefs, but instead continues to be rewarded just by being...himself. How droll, how boring. It would be a completely avoidable black mark on a narrative that, for the most part, has had very stellar character drama.

See, I get you to some degree--that I would love to see Adolin's internal POV more. But you assume because you see him through others' eyes on the page, and they see his life as perfect and easy, that it *is* so. I relate to him not because I, too, am perfect. (el oh el) But rather, because I too have had a seemingly charmed life, and have it all together, and people like me, and I am helpful, nice, etc. So when I feel the inevitable insecurities, trauma, pain, anger, etc., it makes me almost guilty (e.g., How dare I feel this way when I have it so relatively good?). He is loyal. He is in pain because his two best friends (his wife and Kal) are in pain and he can't always help them. His world is in disarray. And you think his consistency means a lack of growth. I think it means a different type of growth. One where you realize the importance of maintaining, and of seeing your place in the world. I don't find him boring at all. I find him fascinating as a character study *because* I know how deep still waters can run...or rather, how much "normal" can hide. 

ETA: I want to be clear that I'm not expecting to convince anyone! Just to explain that I like him for precisely the opposite reasons that you seem to dislike him; because I see the characterization as fascinating, not boring. The COVID quarantine has made me feel this way even more, as I'm the person who always looks like they have it all together, I'm the "strong" one who checks in on everyone and solves all the problems--checks in on her struggling students, always sees the signs before they do, swoops in, gets them resources. Stays productive on research to not let the team down. Stays positive and happy for my kids and partner and nieces and parents. But that doesn't mean that I *feel* like I have it together. And there just aren't that many of us in fantasy (I feel like its' the broken reluctant hero or the confident hero, but rarely the "normal" dudes or dudettes). People who aren't broken, but who are stretched. People who choose to be positive and optimistic and steady, even when it's hard, because we know that we don't have it as hard as some other people do. Our stories involve growth, it's just less obvious. (and I think it makes it even harder to see when we have so few POVs from him.)

Edited October 15, 2020 by Bliev

[Much-ado-about-Mishram he/him]

My totally off-the-wall idea is that Maya will be “revived” or “healed” or what have you (mechanism of that TBD) and that Adolin will NOT bond her when given the choice in order to set her free to return to Spren society (probably for some greater good in order to win favor in the spren battle of public opinion. He will then loose his shard blade in a specific moment that will be of great cost to him and/or the ones he loves. Obviously completely speculative but I like the idea of a show of good faith to make up for the pst abuse of spren in the recreance at the hands of humans...

[Realmatic Shadow]

6 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

It's about the complete lack of challenges this character faces that force him to look upon his actions, his motivations, and his behaviors to determine where he is deficient, where he needs to change. There is nothing he needs growth on.

I think that a key part of the bond that might arise between Maya and Adolin is that Adolin isn't the one that is broken and need to grow and heal, bur rather Maya is the party in the bond that requires the progression and healing that the oaths typically provide for the Radiants. I am fascinated by this idea of an inverted bond dynamic, and I have to agree with @Bliev that one of the big parts of Adolin that is interesting to read about is that he appears so collected and 'whole' from the outside. From my own experiences, and those of many close friends, I feel that that is almost always not a very accurate read of the persons actual view, and I am very interested to read about how this view would apply to Adolin and his personal experience.

In the end, each character in a narrative is up to the reader's interpretation, and not everyone will interpret them the same way. I find almost every character in the series to be enjoyable at most times (Even early Shallan chapters, but I can definitely see how others can find her annoying at first), and that probably skews my opinions on arguments such as this.

[DeployParachute]

23 hours ago, Bliev said:

I relate to him not because I, too, am perfect. (el oh el) But rather, because I too have had a seemingly charmed life, and have it all together, and people like me, and I am helpful, nice, etc. So when I feel the inevitable insecurities, trauma, pain, anger, etc., it makes me almost guilty (e.g., How dare I feel this way when I have it so relatively good?). He is loyal. He is in pain because his two best friends (his wife and Kal) are in pain and he can't always help them. His world is in disarray. And you think his consistency means a lack of growth. I think it means a different type of growth. One where you realize the importance of maintaining, and of seeing your place in the world.

See, this is the trick with Adolin as he is currently being written, and the level of depth Brandon has decided to pursue with his character. All of these things you are stating about him are things you are projecting onto him. They may be well reasoned, rational projections based on your own personal experiences in life, but without Brandon taking us into Adolin's head, his world, and putting those things front and center for us readers to see, then all it will ever be is the little dribbles of things that come out during other characters interaction with him. We don't get to see what exactly is painful for him about his relationship with his wife, or his inability to help her with her problems. We don't get to see his thoughts on the matter, or what he does to cope with it. We don't get to see the personal toll it is taking on his psyche. And ultimately we don't get to see how those things affect his ability to operate successfully in the world. If we don't get to take the journey with him, then what lesson are we to glean from this character? How is our understanding about people in his situation (or your situation) supposed to change? 

Always maintaining the air of being the strong, competent and reliable person in any and every situation has a cost. Setting aside your own needs, desires, or sufferings so that you can always prioritize others has a cost. Knowing what those costs are, and how they balance the scales against the alternatives is how we can judge whether or not decisions we make are in the long run helpful or harmful. We should see these costs present themselves to Adolin, we should see him choosing to accept them, and we should see the impact they have on his life, positively and negatively. A "different type of growth" that the readers are not able to experience alongside the character is not something I would wish for someone as prominent in the narrative as Adolin has been.

Anything we get with Adolin, as it stands now, is in service to the plot, and to other characters. He's become increasingly more like a cardboard cutout of a main character with each passing novel, and Brandon is relying on his readers to fill in the blanks, to write their own "headcanon" for what he thinks, how he feels, how he's suffering instead of Brandon having to write it in any in depth way. Perhaps that is exactly why so many people enjoy the character: he's the character they can write themselves, his internal motivations being so left to interpretation due to lack of prose.

16 hours ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

In the end, each character in a narrative is up to the reader's interpretation, and not everyone will interpret them the same way.  I find almost every character in the series to be enjoyable at most times (Even early Shallan chapters, but I can definitely see how others can find her annoying at first), and that probably skews my opinions on arguments such as this.

 I think you are conflating a reader's "interpretation" of a character, with their "enjoyment" of a character. A good character, when written, should have fewer "interpretable" characteristics than not. We as readers should mostly be on the same page in understanding what typically motivates a character, how they respond to situations, what their outlook on life is, what their goals are likely to be. Even when those things are unknown to the character, we as readers should all be able to collectively agree that it is "unknown" until the writer happens to fill us in, and until they do so we are only able to surmise, or offer our own "interpretation".

Example: If I were to state: "Kaladin Stormblessed is typically a very even-tempered, jolly fellow, who is quick to joke and quick to smile, and always has something positive to say about any situation". You would likely respond, correctly, "No, that is not a valid interpretation of the character".

An author has a view of their main characters, a goal and an intent behind how they structure their personalities. The goal of the author is not usually to obfuscate who the character is to the reader. We as the readers should know these things about a character, if not at the beginning, then at least by journeying with them. What the character ultimately means to you, the lessons you take from them and their journey, as well as your personal enjoyment of that are the things that are ultimately subject to personal interpretation.

To date, Brandon has done minimal work in "telling" us what Adolin may be thinking or feeling, but he has not done a whole lot of "showing" us that. I certainly hope that changes once we get to the Parts in RoW where we can finally be seated in his head again. I sincerely hope Brandon takes advantage of those, certain to be brief, moments to make it worth it. Because I'm not going to do his writing for him in my head for this character.

Edited October 16, 2020 by DeployParachute

[Pathfinder]

So I was hesitant at first to write this, but then again, everyone is saying their personal opinion on how they view Adolin, so why not right?

I feel I have more of a middle of the road view of Adolin? So on one hand I do not see him as a happiness pump (I have been binging "The Good Place", so if you are curious about the term, it comes from there). On the other, I think the whole is a "main character", is not a "main character" is problematic. 

We know who are the three big "guys" are. Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan right? We can all agree on that? Blurbs on the book, words from the author himself, and plain and simple the books itself all show they are the focal points. They may come back and forth into and out of the foreground, but the first five books are definitely about them. Can we all agree on that?

The back five will still have some of the same characters (those that survive), but will mainly focus on Renarin, Jasnah, and the heralds. We got a whole lot of info on that right? Can we all agree on that?

So regardless the definitions of "main characters", or the number of "PoVs" or the "depth of characterization", we know the basic formats of the books (understanding there can be and have been tweaks here or there such as shifting from Eshonai to Venli and etc) right?

For myself, and why I see this as "the middle ground" (not meaning to imply anyone is extreme, nor that my view is any more reasonable or valid), is I kind of see Adolin outside of all of this terminology. I just like to read him as a character in the stormlight novel. No different than Teft, or Rock, or any other character. And before it is stated "those are secondary characters! Adolin is a main character!", in a book with so many "main characters", is anyone really "main" by any definition? Which is why I said earlier what characters are the focus of the novels. It avoids the whole laden meaning behind "main" and "secondary". It just covers who is being "focused" on. For myself, that opens up the narrative for Adolin to be based on whatever information we have, instead of trying to fit a "role" and trying to define whether or not he was written to fill said role. So if someone feels the information in the narrative leans towards Adolin reviving Maya, then it does not matter if he is a "main" character, or character number 143. They believe based on the information they have read, Adolin will revive Maya. If Adolin does revive Maya and it is not as lengthy, or in the manner they like? Then they just didn't like it. And that is totally fine and understandable. Just the same in the reverse. 

Hmmm, to avoid rambling further TLDR: I like reading the character based on what we have and trying to understand that. I guess to each their own. 

[DeployParachute]

So I'll start by saying that my distinctions for main characters and other characters are in reference to where I believe they fall on the gradient of complexity of author development tied to that character. If this shorthand is incorrect in describing my intent, or there is a more appropriate one, I am more than happy to drop the term, as I am not married to it for the purposes of the ideas I'm putting forth.

So let me try to distill down the point that I am trying to make, in regards to Adolin and this potential Maya plot:

If, say, the plot point of reviving a Deadeye spren, something that has never been done, so far as we or anyone in cosmere know, something that is presumed to be impossible, something that the author himself states would require some serious business to make it happen, were given to a character like Rock, then I absolutely would be making the same argument about Rock that I am making about Adolin. If such a thing was never achieved by anyone else in the world(universe) before this individual, then tell me why this individual. What is it about this character that puts them in such a unique position. What are the events that lead up to it, but more importantly, what is the character thinking about as it is happening. What is it about them, their nature, their thoughts, their approach to the world that makes this absolutely momentous event in Cosmere history possible. Was it hard? Did it take conscious effort? Were there costs to the person who did this? Did they have to give up something, do they regret that, are there ongoing repurcussions to their life? Why do they want to do this, or does it just happen by accident? If it is a struggle to achieve this, can I (the reader) be in their head as they experience it?

Adolin reviving Maya, if such a plot exists in Brandon's plan, is not a minor occurrence in universe. It is a game changer in the perception of the world our characters live in, the very nature of their relationship with Spren, as well as a shift in prioritizations for everyone involved with them. The momentousness of that accomplishment, imo, better come balanced by an equally momentous character journey on the part of whoever achieves this feat. 

Adolin, as he is written now, is currently not up to my standards for this. I'm fine with him as a character as he exists today, for he is currently balanced in proportion to his overall influence on the greater plot. However, it would be a disservice to the story for him to be given this plot point without some additional serious character development on Brandon's part. He needs to restore some of the things he has taken from this character over the course of Oathbringer. Like motivations, agency, sense of purpose that isn't just in service to the plot, or the arcs of other characters. He needs his own arc re-established, one that can do justice to the gravitas of reviving Maya. The Maya plot needs to be driven by him, by his actions, his agency, his struggle, not anyone else's.

If he is going to be playing an increased role in the significant development of the greater narrative plot, due to his interactions with Maya, then his development needs a proportional increase in depth. Without it, I suspect that when this plot lands, the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment will be diminished, or absent entirely.

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

So I'll start by saying that my distinctions for main characters and other characters are in reference to where I believe they fall on the gradient of complexity of author development tied to that character. If this shorthand is incorrect in describing my intent, or there is a more appropriate one, I am more than happy to drop the term, as I am not married to it for the purposes of the ideas I'm putting forth.

So first and foremost, just want to stress that I was not saying you were incorrect or correct. You are totally entitled to your opinion. 

To hopefully clarify my own opinion. I don't see the point of the classifications to begin with. I don't see the point of measuring any characters against those classifications. I don't see why it should matter whether or not Adolin, Rock, or whoever is a "main" character or not. I just look at it as a character, in a book, with things happening. 

Ok, maybe this example will help. I already stated my theory regarding reviving Maya right? Without getting into other people's opinion's and risking misrepresenting them, it has been stated that whether or not Adolin is a "main character" would determine whether:

 

1. Adolin could revive Maya

2. How Adolin could revive Maya

3. Who revives Maya

4. When Maya is revived

5. If Maya is revived at all

 

Now I have seen a whole host of theories in all sorts of directions regarding Maya. In not a one of them, have I seen it mentioned in the books that "so and so is a main character" so they have to do X. I have not seen anywhere in the books that "so and so has x number of PoVs, so they have to do X". What I have seen is Sja-anat. I have seen Dalinar use connection powers. I have seen Maya tell Adolin his name. I have seen Maya attack the fused. So that is what I am seeing, and that is what I am reading. Personally trying to get "meta" spoils the enjoyment for me regarding reading the book. So I choose not to think on who, if anyone, is or is not a main character or what have you. I just come up with a theory based on what I read and that is as deep as it goes. 

Having said that, again, if you choose to do so, that is totally your right, and I respect that. This is not meant to offer commentary on you whatsoever. People were sharing their opinions on Adolin. This is mine. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

If such a thing was never achieved by anyone else in the world(universe) before this individual, then tell me why this individual. What is it about this character that puts them in such a unique position.

Brandon said something on his livestream yesterday, relevant to this. For him, books should have a promise, and a payoff. That payoff is based on the what happens to the characters, and what their arc is taking them towards. That doesn't mean predictable, but there should be some kind of closure to the arc, and it should be satisfying, if not predictable or obvious. When multiple character arcs come to completion at once, that's your book's ending.

The relevance to Adolin and Maya should be obvious. Adolin's arc has to do with reviving Maya, so I think Maya will get revived. I think Maya will get revived so that way they know it can be done, because it needs to be done again for the Sibling, and then the Sibling will enter Urithiru willingly and be confined as if inside a fabrial. So Adolin reviving Maya is secondary, while reviving the Sibling is primary. 

Your point is well made, though, and makes me think it's going to be Dalinar who actually does the reviving, or whose perspective we are in when it happens. Adolin just needs to be stubborn and show a proof of concept, he doesn't need to do everything. In that way, it's more like Lopen regrowing his arm was proof of concept of Stormlight healing what should be permanent wounds. Lopen is a tertiary character, at best, and once he regrew his arm he returned to the place whence he came: comic relief. I can see the same for Adolin.

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

See, this is the trick with Adolin as he is currently being written, and the level of depth Brandon has decided to pursue with his character. All of these things you are stating about him are things you are projecting onto him. They may be well reasoned, rational projections based on your own personal experiences in life, but without Brandon taking us into Adolin's head, his world, and putting those things front and center for us readers to see, then all it will ever be is the little dribbles of things that come out during other characters interaction with him.

I'm genuinely confused by this rationale. 

We see inside Adolin's head more than any character who isn't one of the "big three" over the course of the series, and there's plenty to judge about his motivations... And even if there weren't, a person can't be judged by their words and actions? 

Adolin, as a character, has always seemed to be a character that's very clearly written, which is why the divisiveness of the character has surprised me continually. 

[Georion]

On 10/16/2020 at 1:37 AM, Much-ado-about-Mishram said:

My totally off-the-wall idea is that Maya will be “revived” or “healed” or what have you (mechanism of that TBD) and that Adolin will NOT bond her when given the choice in order to set her free to return to Spren society (probably for some greater good in order to win favor in the spren battle of public opinion. He will then loose his shard blade in a specific moment that will be of great cost to him and/or the ones he loves. Obviously completely speculative but I like the idea of a show of good faith to make up for the pst abuse of spren in the recreance at the hands of humans...

That s my feeling as well, Maya will be healed or reviewed or whathaveyou, but Adolin will not become and Edgedancer, and Maya will be set free.

Yes, some of the qualities of the Edgedancer's from the descriptions would fit Adolin, but let's keep in mind those are fairly loose and many of them would fit good soldier/ hero type people. In the other thread someone pointed out how well Adolin fits the Stonewards, let's take a peak at the rest:

Windrunner:

Quote

The Windrunners tend to attract “big sibling” types, who seek to protect the defenseless, but also enjoy action and fighting for what they believe in..... They tend to be the most like conventional soldiers, believing in structures of command, team dynamics, and the importance of a squad of brothers and sisters.

Perfect fit

Skybreaker

Quote

The Skybreakers were the enforcers of the Knights Radiant, often tasked with keeping the peace, policing the other Orders, and making certain that dangerous or dark forces in the world were contained.... Anyone believing in finding true justice, in defending the innocent, and in punishing the guilty would be welcome in the Order.

good fit

Dustbringers

Quote

They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding....  They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

good fit

Lightweaver 

Quote

"They have a reputation for having looser morals than other Orders, but the Lightweavers are quick to point out that their personal values are strong. They just don’t feel they need to match what other more hardline Orders tend to require."

not a good fit overall, but this sentence could be applied to Adolin. 

Willshaper

Quote

Many among the Willshapers are warriors focused on freeing those who are captive, and others are focused on radical self-expression. The Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose. They are united through a love of building, but some consider the building of society to be more important than the building of structures. Among the Willshapers, you’ll find both those who dress very conservatively and those who wear very daring and original styles. The common ground is that both agree that freedom to express who you are is the important part.

decent fit, at least this part

Bondsmith is a bit of a wild card order, because it depends most on the special spren rather than personality of the radiant, but whatever, let's say that one + Elecaller+ Truthwatcher really dont fit Adolin. He would be a decent to almost perfect fit for the rest of the 7 orders. If it wasnt for Maya, I dont think people would even consider Adolin becoming an edgedancer, if he was to become radiant, most people would agree he's a stoneward/windrunner/dustbringer.

EDIT: plus, there are several theories about him either dying or being taken by Odium, and I find those theories narratively more cohesive, then the idea of him just becoming another Edgedancer, because he heals his spren.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Georion

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

I hate to say it but it seems like Adolin is being set up to be killed off, similar to the way Elothkar was killed off.  

Elothkar had an arc that seemed to be progressing, similar to the Adolin/Maya arc.  It was repeatedly foreshadowed that he was going to swear oaths as a Lightweaver, as well as grow into his role as the king of Alethkar.  Then when he was literally beginning to swear the words, and it seemed that he was growing into the king that could save his kingdom, his arc was brought to an abrupt end.  

Something similar could happen to Adolin.  His attempts to free Maya might very well be a distraction.  Everybody knows that in this series about a world-ending apocalypse, there has been a noticeable lack of dead protagonists.  A lot of villains have been killed off with no heroes to balance the scales.  Adolin’s death would have a major impact on the growth of Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin who have all used him as a source of stability.

22 hours ago, Rainier said:

Adolin's arc has to do with reviving Maya, so I think Maya will get revived.

I am not sure if the Maya will or will not be revived, but if the rationale for her being revived is that it simply completes “Adolin’s arc” then you could make that argument for any theory.  

As stated above, you could have made the argument before Oathbringer that Elothkar’s arc hasn’t been completed so therefore he can’t die.  That would have been wrong.  I hope we never get to a point where the story becomes so predictable that we know characters can’t die because their arc still has loose ends.

22 hours ago, Rainier said:

I think Maya will get revived so that way they know it can be done, because it needs to be done again for the Sibling, and then the Sibling will enter Urithiru willingly and be confined as if inside a fabrial.

The Sibling is not a deadeye, a distinction that is hugely important.  We do not know the details behind the Sibling, but we do know that it disappeared long before the Knights Radiant abanded thier oaths.  We have no idea if Adolin’s knowledge of spren revival will be relevant to the Sibling considering we have barely any information on the Sibling itself.  

Edited October 17, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

if the rationale for her being revived is that it simply completes “Adolin’s arc” then you could make that argument for any theory.  

You've got it backwards. I think that any argument you make about any theory should reflect that character's arc, because it's only through the arc of a character that we get a story at all. So maybe I'm wrong about what Adolin's arc will be, but he's got one going for him, and it's going to come to a conclusion. I might be wrong about when the conclusion is coming, but I guarantee you that there will be.

Take Elhokar. After WoK I could say that his arc is to realize he's been a bad king, acknowledge it, work to get better, then bond the Cryptic that was hinted following him. I'd have been mostly right, and wrong in some important ways, and certainly wouldn't have predicted the conclusion. He has an arc, it ended, the arc served the story. The entire story is a series of arcs: promises that deserve payoff. Elhokar's promise was that he'd see how bad he was, and try to get better. We got that.

Adolin's promise is that we get to see him revive Maya. Before you protest, we've already seen this, revival isn't all or nothing. Adolin is slowly increasing Maya's awareness through his Connection with her. So we know his arc, and we know it's going to serve the story. We don't know how, exactly, and we don't know when or how it will end.

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

The Sibling is not a deadeye, a distinction that is hugely important.  We do not know the details behind the Sibling, but we do know that it disappeared long before the Knights Radiant abanded thier oaths.  We have no idea if Adolin’s knowledge of spren revival will be relevant to the Sibling considering we have barely any information on the Sibling itself.  

First, you're right that we don't know the details, but the Fused think deadeye and Stormfather says sleeping but won't comment. In the interest of framing it in arcs that serve the story, I think the main way the Sibling will affect the story is by exploring the nature of fabrials, and specifically the nature of trapping spren in fabrials in order to exploit them. I'd guess that will be revealed to be the reason the Sibling left, and that will need to be the obstacle overcome in some fashion. Just like with Maya, this has already happened. The Oathgate spren are not trapped, they are bound by oaths, demonstrating for our characters a different way to make fabrials than the one presented by Navani.

I simply thought the Fused were more right than they know, but if they knew what we did, they might be more cautious.

[Annoyspren]

Hey everyone, this is my first post, so I will start it off by voicing what is probably a very unpopular opinion:

I am not sure I even want Mayalaran to be revived.

One of the most noble things about the spren we know about is they all seem to understand that tremendous risk that comes from forming a Nahel bond.  Pattern encapsulates this best.  In very plain Crypticspren english, he says that he is 100% convinced that the bond will kill him.  He does not say this to caution Shallan, he does not say this out of bravery.  He states this as the simple, inevitable truth.  Yet he sacrifices his very psyche for the greater good.  The Stormfather also believes his bond will be the death of him, but risks everything to stop Odium.  The incredible sacrifice that the spren are undertaking with no concern for their personal welfare is a wonderfully brave and noble thing to do.  Maybe it is not fair to compare the minds of spren to humans, but I think this little detail adds some depth to their “character”.  

If knowledge was uncovered that spren could be brought back from spren death, then their heroic sacrifice would become meaningless.  Even if the method of spren revival is hard to replicate.  For example, maybe Adolin will prove that the deadeye needs to spend a decade with a human on top of some other crazy stuff.  But if the possibility of spren revival exists, then I will care less about whether or not the knights are keeping to their oaths.  It is one thing to be able to heal any wound with enough stormlight, it is quite another to revive the dead.  

Edited October 18, 2020 by Annoyspren

[Realmatic Shadow]

On 18/10/2020 at 8:38 AM, Annoyspren said:

Hey everyone, this is my first post, so I will start it off by voicing what is probably a very unpopular opinion:

I am not sure I even want Mayalaran to be revived.

First of all, welcome to the Shard!
From what I have seen of other threads on this topic (this is not a very representative one here), that opinion is not so unpopular as you may think.

On 18/10/2020 at 8:38 AM, Annoyspren said:

But if the possibility of spren revival exists, then I will care less about whether or not the knights are keeping to their oaths.

We have already sort of seen spren revival occur, with Kaladin breaking his oaths in Words of Radiance and killing Syl, which he then picked back up and brought her back. This is definitely different to reviving a deadeye, but it does show that even if a Radiant broke their oaths, they could pick them back up and the spren could be brought back. 

I personally find the idea that, if one Radiant breaks their oaths, another person could come and pick up those fallen oaths and, through much hardship, revive that spren, to be a reassuring idea. Brandon has made statements about how he dislikes 'revivng' characters too often, like what happened with Jasnah (most readers thought her dead, Shallan and other characters did so too, then she shows up in the Epilogue all of a sudden), so we likely won't see deadeye spren being revived all over the place, but we may see some story critical points using it for their gain. As others have said above, Maya being the preview for the Sibling being revived is a popular theory, and this may be the only few times that we see spren being brought back from the dead at all, with maybe a show that a few other people also revived their deadeye blade, and that would probably play a little better for still having stakes for all of the characters. 

[LuckyJim]

If the possibility of revival exists, it wouldn't be as easy as developing a relationship and swearing new oaths. Brandon has said that deadeye spren have serious damage, a piece of their spiritual being is literally missing and would have to be replaced. I know it's sort of a meme, but I don't think Adolin "filling the gaps" in a reverse Nahel bond is really plausible because the bonds don't really work that way, spren are fundamentally different from humans, I seriously doubt the roles could be so easily interchanged. I do think Maya will be revived, but it would have to be through some means that are either so specific or difficult that there would basically be no reason to unless you really wanted to revive a spren for whatever reason.

[DeployParachute]

On 10/17/2020 at 6:05 PM, Rainier said:

You've got it backwards. I think that any argument you make about any theory should reflect that character's arc, because it's only through the arc of a character that we get a story at all. So maybe I'm wrong about what Adolin's arc will be, but he's got one going for him, and it's going to come to a conclusion. I might be wrong about when the conclusion is coming, but I guarantee you that there will be.

You claim that Adolin has an arc, and that it is "reviving Maya". But as I've argued elsewhere in other threads, I find it difficult to understand why something like "Reviving Maya", which constitutes a plot point, a task, an event that happens within the story, is often declared as an "arc" for a character.

Would you not agree that a "plot point" and a "character arc" are two different, and distinct, elements of a story? Would you agree that a character "arc" involves a change of state of the character. Character starts out with these views, these goals, these perceptions, and then they achieve this, journey there, meet a person, or lose something (make your pick, there are countless others), and through those acts of the story, change to have altered sets of views, goals, and perceptions of the world, or a better understanding of themselves.

If you agree, that a character arc isn't just "character does this action" in the narrative, that it involves some kind of set up for change for the character, and you also believe that Adolin has such an arc planned, can you please share your thoughts on what arc you believe has been set up for him? What changes in his beliefs, his goals, his motivations, his ideals, his behaviors are necessary for the growth of this character? What interesting internal journey can Adolin, as he is written now, take?

 

On 10/16/2020 at 8:33 PM, Calderis said:

I'm genuinely confused by this rationale. 

We see inside Adolin's head more than any character who isn't one of the "big three" over the course of the series, and there's plenty to judge about his motivations... And even if there weren't, a person can't be judged by their words and actions? 

Adolin, as a character, has always seemed to be a character that's very clearly written, which is why the divisiveness of the character has surprised me continually. 

Not trying to imply that we don't know Adolin. We know him as well as we can know any other character, but it is because, as Brandon has stated: "What you see is what you get". And what we get for Adolin does not run very deep in terms of character development.  Most of what we see of him throughout OB and these first couple of chapters in RoW is very light on any kind of internal struggle. And what little he did have, based on his internal viewpoints up to that point, seemed to be concluded by the end of OB. He got the girl he was pursuing, he didn't have to shoulder the burden of a potential crown (responsibility) he didn't want, and he cleared his conscience of murdering a highprince. The internal struggles we knew of have been wiped off the board, and if Brandon doesn't replace them with new ones, then what are we left with? If Adolin is written to be that person who "seems like they have it all together, and says and does all the right things at the right times, but is struggling internally because of the pressure of having to always be that person", well then I would say it is HUGELY important for us to be in his head, so that we can see the struggle. We very much need more than his words and actions to other people as perceived by those people.

This whole "still waters run deep" motif with Adolin might as well not exist if we can't peer beneath the surface. There may be a whole ocean under there, but we'll never be able to distinguish it from a puddle if we keep having to rely on viewing it externally. So my implication is that you should not give that kind of a character a plot point of the magnitude of reviving a deadeye spren, without also fleshing out that character. We should be taken beneath the surface so that we as the readers can be given a feeling of depth to their journey. That way the plot altering achievement accomplished in the world, a Maya revival, is mirrored by an equally satisfying character arc. That is the crux of my argument.

 

Quote

there's plenty to judge about his motivations

What are Adolin's motivations in life? What are his goals (for himself)? What does he want (for himself)? What do you think he needs (for himself), if anything? Can you list a couple of these things? Right now, it seems to me like what little motivations he has are centered around other people, and nothing to indicate his own personal internal ones. Not having any personal goals or desires for oneself in life and the problems those deficiencies generates is a great foundation for a character arc. But guess what? We've already got that going for another character: Kaladin. So again, I ask, what are Adolin's motivations and goals that apply to himself, and not solely to other characters and their arcs? No, he certainly does not need to have such individualized motivations if his importance in the narrative stays where it is, or diminishes. But if you are going to give him bigger plot points to own, then he should have those fleshed out for us readers.

[+Bliev she/her]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

He got the girl he was pursuing, he didn't have to shoulder the burden of a potential crown (responsibility) he didn't want, and he cleared his conscience of murdering a highprince.

I think I see the disconnect here. I think we have gotten much more info on Adolin's motivations and inner thoughts than you have. I think this is a wildly simplified view based on your interpretation (so valid, but not more valid than anyone else's). 

 

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

What are Adolin's motivations in life? What are his goals (for himself)? What does he want (for himself)? What do you think he needs (for himself), if anything?

I remember in WOK you saw him rubbing up against societal expectations. Trying to be a good Alethi, a good son, which often meant hiding parts of himself to make his father proud. Fiercely loyal. We saw him as a child in OB getting yelled at and becoming more "perfect" in response. We see his perspective in OB of starting to doubt himself, but shutting that voice off in Shadesmar to focus on his friends. We see his insecurity when he tries to let Shallan go. We see his insecurity again when he turns down the crown and wanting his father to react. Wanting something. You read this as "he gets the girl and no responsibility so he wins". I read this as "insecurity unaddressed" and a potential problem for him. We haven't seen his internal reaction to learning about Evi yet, but we see what Kal sees--that he is thwarting Dalinar's desires. I think you think we're projecting more depth, but I think you're projecting *less* depth. Because the textual evidence is there that there is more going on, if you interpret it that way. It would not be unexpected to get Adolin POVs that show just how much he is pushing down and out because of fear or insecurity or anger. Because we see hints of them throughout the series:

We see his anger in WOK when Sadeas is insulting his father. We see his inability to let things go when Renarin seeks to calm him down. We see how he reveres his father.

In WOR, chapter 14, we see him talk to Maya and refuse to name her, feeling like she's an extension of the soul. We do not see any other characters treat their (dead) blades with such reverance. We see his insecurities there as well:

Quote

“I remember when I won you,” Adolin whispered, looking at his reflection in the blade. “Nobody took me seriously then, either. The fop with the nice clothing. Tinalar thought to duel me just to embarrass my father. Instead I got his Blade.” If he’d lost, he would have had to give Tinalar his Plate, which he’d inherited from his mother’s side of the family. Adolin had never named his Shardblade. 

Quote

“I speak so confidently to everyone else,” Adolin said, “since I know they rely on me. But if I lose today, that’s it. No more duels, and a severe knot in Father’s grand plan.” 

And the entire Shadesmar scene in OB, like:

Quote

Adolin felt useless. All his life, he had understood. He’d taken easily to dueling. People naturally seemed to like him. Even in his darkest moment—standing on the battlefield and watching Sadeas’s armies retreat, abandoning him and his father—he’d understood what was happening to him. Not today. Today he was just a confused little boy standing in Damnation. Today, Adolin Kholin was nothing.

Quote

Adolin felt small. So very small.

LIke, I don't read this as "I don't want responsibility," though I can see how someone could read it that way. I read it as deep insecurity born out of a childhood seeking validation from a cold and distant father.

Quote

More, he felt his own growing worry that he might actually have to take the throne. He’d grown up knowing it could happen, but he’d also grown up wishing—desperately—that it never would. In his quiet moments, he’d assumed this hesitance was because a king couldn’t apply himself to things like dueling and … well … enjoying life. What if it went deeper? What if he’d always known inconsistency lurked within him? He couldn’t keep pretending he was the man his father wanted him to be.

And I see this as incredibly strong foreshadowing for Adolin's character arc, and the Maya awakening plot point:

Quote

Ico turned and regarded him, then smiled wanly and nodded toward Adolin’s spren. “What is she to you?” “A friend.” “A tool. You use her corpse on the other side, don’t you? Well, I won’t blame you. I’ve heard stories of what they can do, and I am a pragmatic person. Just … don’t pretend she is your friend.”

Adolin sees her as a friend. Not as a tool. We know that cognitive thoughts matter, intent matters, in the Cosmere. As others have noted, it is surely not "enough", but that's where I see adolin's growth coming into play. He is trying to figure out who he is as a man, as a bit player on a field full of superheroes and fragments of gods. He focuses on helping his wife, his best friend. But who is helping him? You're right we have little insight into his brain. But I could continue posting the evidence ,particularly from OB, that supports my "still waters" idea, which is more than just projection (though I agree, my explanation was rife with such lol). 

Overall, I think an awakened Maya, in some capacity, fulfills plot points for Adolin and Dalinar (if the theory of his role rings true) and also provides an opportunity for growth for our friend Kal, who spoke so dismissively of her in the bar chapter. It also provides an opportunity for Adolin to see himself differently, to see his path as worthy in and of itself--even as it detours from his father's or Kal's or Shallan's. That's the character arc to me. 

[agrabes]

I think a lot of people are projecting things in a lot of different ways about Adolin, which I think is part of the intent of his character.  He's intentionally written as a little bit of a blank slate.  He's the equivalent in a teen drama of the jock who turns out to be actually kind of nice, but is still a jock and can often be a jerk without meaning to.  And at the end of the day, some people just won't like him because of who he is even if he's not a bad person.  

My personal view is that Adolin does not have a significant character arc in the books.  He hasn't had a significant change in personality or outlook.  I think the biggest reason I feel like he doesn't have his own arc is because there is very little he's aspired to do for himself.  His greatest goal in life was to become a renowned duelist and it is the only thing we've seen him actively pursue on screen.  Everything else he's done is more out of duty, out of being born or placed into a position where he has to fulfill certain expectations.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it sets him apart from characters like Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar.  All three of the primary main characters have goals and aspirations that they actively work towards, while Adolin doesn't even have dueling anymore.  

It's not his character's major arc or purpose to revive Maya.  In fact, (to my memory) he's never even said he wants to try doing it.  I think people read a little too much into the situation there.  Adolin is a good soldier who cares a lot about his weapon.  He maintains it and treats it well.  He personifies it a little bit, not that different from what many similar soldiers would do in that position who have a similar sword.  We see in the books that Dalinar did the same with his sword Oathbringer with the same results (Oathbringer hates him less than other humans).  Kaladin doesn't, because his weapon is the spear which is expected to break in battle.  He doesn't have just one spear that stays with him throughout his life.  I don't think Kaladin's opinion of the Adolin/Maya relationship is wrong.  Maya is dead.  All other Radiants have put aside dead shardblades to bond live spren.  Adolin has more of an emotional connection to the Shardblade that's been his constant companion than to the deadeye spren Maya.  Adolin is basically making the same choice Kaladin did in a certain respect - Kaladin wouldn't take up Heleran's shards because it felt wrong despite the power increase he would get.  I could see Adolin doing the same thing and sticking with a deadeye blade for similar reasons.

I do think we're being promised that something will happen with an attempt to revive Maya.  I don't think it's clear what the results of that attempt will be.  I do like the idea that it could be Dalinar who revives Maya - that maybe the loving attention of a dedicated shardbearer + a bondsmith's power is enough to revive a deadeyes.  I could also see the Radiants making a very serious attempt and eventually learning definitively that Maya cannot be revived back into a spren.

[+Bliev she/her]

As an aside, to me, this week's chapter adds more evidence to the idea that Adolin is *not* just blithely okay with his father's reflections on his mother, and his character arc toward self-realization seems more clear (as per Navani's POV anyways). Seeing him and Shallan present a united married front to Dalinar was really a great sign that their marriage is strong, and it was nice for me to see Shallan comfort Adolin and relax him in return. We rarely see any other character provide solace to Adolin; usually it's the other way around.