Jess Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 It has become a commonly expressed theory that the Ideals of the various KR orders progress from the primary Divine Attribute to the secondary Divine Attribute, specifically that the Second and Third Ideals express/reflect DA1, and the Fourth and Fifth Ideals express/reflect DA2. I do not like this theory and I don’t think it holds up to scrutiny. On a storytelling level, it is overly formulaic, literal, predictable, rigid. Obviously this is a matter of personal taste, but the thing about Brandon’s magic systems is: even though they are systems, even though you can predict parts of them just by thinking logically, they are also filled with enough complexity and exceptions to be surprising at times. They are logical but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are obvious. There’s just enough pattern-breaking to be interesting, and I think this theory misses that aspect of Brandon’s magic systems. The table in the Ars Arcanum is described as “an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism”. For this reason alone I think it is silly to treat the DAs as prescriptive. It probably reflects an outsider’s view of the orders’ temperaments, and while that does of course correlate somewhat with the Ideals, there’s no reason to believe in a perfectly structured 1-to-1 relationship. We know all the ideals of one order, and the early ideals of three more orders. This is not actually that much data to try to extrapolate such a rigid pattern from! But, let’s go through and examine how well the Ideals we do know fit their respective DAs: Windrunners “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves” and “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right”. Yes, these very cleanly fit DA1, “protecting”. Edgedancers “I will remember those who have been forgotten” and “I will listen to those who have been ignored”. I think it’s fair to say these also fit DA1, “loving”, however I would like to point out that they are both very specific manifestations of the broad concept “loving”, rather than something more obvious like “I will love the unloved”. This indicates to me that even in cases where the Ideals do reflect the DAs, it may not be easy or even possible to guess the Ideals based on the DAs alone. If we knew as little about the Edgedancers as we do about, say, the Dustbringers or the Willshapers, do you really think anybody would be able to guess their ideals based only on the description “loving”? Lightweavers Lightweavers are of course major wildcards. However, I find it interesting that it is their secondary DA, “honest”, that is clearly reflected in their Words and how they advance in their power. Their primary DA, “creative”, is only reflected in their temperament, not in their Words. This to me is evidence that the DAs are mostly about how the orders are perceived, and do not have a predictive structural relationship to the Ideals. Bondsmiths “I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.” The Bondsmiths’ DA1 is “pious” and I don’t see that reflected in this ideal at all. If anything, this ideal seems to be a manifestation of DA2, “guiding”. “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” It’s actually weird to me that these two statements are bound together as a single ideal because they seem to me to be quite distinct ideas. Nevertheless, I still wouldn’t call either one inherently “pious”. However, there is one hypothetical way in which these could be construed as pious: they are both very Honorable. This raises a very important question: Does a Nightwatcher Bondsmith have the same oaths as a Stormfather Bondsmith? Maybe a Nightwatcher Bondsmith has very Cultivationy oaths instead. In that case, the Bondsmith Ideals could be called “pious”, for a very specific in-world idea of piety: reflecting Shardic intents. But this is a *very big If.* I have no idea how the Sibling would fit into it, and no idea how likely any of this is. It seems like kind of a reach honestly. So, even though the Bondsmiths are mysterious enough that there is some wiggle room, on balance I do not really think that their Second and Third Ideals are closely related to their DA1. The Second Ideal seems to neatly express DA2, in fact. Skybreakers Ironically, even though we have more information about the Skybreaker Ideals than those of any other order, it also seems to me that this is the area where the relationship between Ideals and DAs is most muddied. My analysis of the Skybreaker Ideals and DAs is much longer than the rest of the orders put together. If you don’t care for extended musing on the pursuit of justice, feel free to scroll down to the bolded tldr at the bottom. Nale is insane and untrustworthy. We cannot take his view of how Skybreakers ought to conduct themselves at face value. The modern Skybreakers haven’t achieved the Fifth Ideal in centuries, and they don’t all achieve the Fourth Ideal either. The order is, I think, a shadow of its former self, far short of its true potential, far more narrow than it necessarily has to be. This is not to say that Ideals we learn in OB are wrong (after all, modern Skybreakers are still attracting spren), but rather that the interpretation and application of the Ideals shown in OB (as well as the general temperament of the order) may very well have drifted since the Recreance. Quote “The second is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice.” -Master Ki “I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal.” -The Second Ideal as sworn by Szeth That said, this is a straightforward reflection of their DA1, “just”. So far so good. Quote “The Third Ideal, the Ideal of Dedication, requires you to have first bonded a highspren. Once you have, you swear to dedicate yourself to a greater truth—a code to follow.” -Master Ki “You must choose a Third Ideal. Most Skybreakers choose to swear themselves to the law—and follow with exactness the laws of whatever lands they visit. That is a good option, but not the only one.” -Nale “I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.” -The Third Ideal as sworn by Szeth The function of this Ideal seems to be that as a Skybreaker matures, they don’t just abstractly seek justice; they eventually must come up with an answer to questions like “What is justice anyway? How do I determine what is and is not just?” Once an individual Skybreaker has an idea of what the answers to those questions might be, the Third Ideal “locks them in” to that specific path to justice. This raises so many questions. Presumably a Skybreaker’s Third Ideal must reflect what that individual genuinely believes to be a valid path to justice. For instance, if a Skybreaker, having sworn the Second Ideal to seek justice, genuinely believed that the law was not a very effective route to justice, they would have to find some other moral philosophy or code to use as their Third Ideal. But what happens if, after a few years, the Skybreaker’s conception of justice changes? What if their Third Ideal conflicts with their earlier oath to seek justice? What if, hypothetically, Dalinar ordered Szeth to do something which Szeth genuinely and fundamentally believed to be unjust? In these cases, it seems like the Third Ideal actually supercedes the Second Ideal and its inherent pursuit of justice. This is borne out by the wording of Szeth’s Second Ideal (“...until I find a more perfect Ideal.”) So how well does the Third Ideal reflect the DA “just”? In practice, it probably does still reflect it for most Skybreakers. But this is hardly a guarantee. The Third Ideal (at least as presented by Nale and the modern Skybreakers) actually prioritizes consistency over justice: Quote “Only in strict adherence to a code can we approximate justice.” [...] “You followed men before. They caused your pain, Szeth-son-Neturo. Your agony is because you did not follow something unchanging and pure.” -Nale, OB Ch. 117 Quote “Regardless, you are certain you wish to follow a man with your oath?” “It is not as perfect as the law, I know,” Szeth said. “But it feels right.” “The law is made by men, so it is not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency.” -Ob Ch. 121 Quote “The only path to Honor is to stick to your chosen code.” -Nale, Edgedancer In fact, Nale (and by extension the Skybreakers that he has recruited and trained) seem to believe that consistency basically is justice, that it’s not possible for the Second and Third Ideals to conflict in the first place. Perhaps anybody who has the capacity to question whether their chosen code will actually enact justice is simply not cut out to be a Skybreaker. I find this unsatisfying. The idea of relying on an external moral code instead of your own fallible judgement is fascinating and valid, and I believe Skybreakers at their best could exemplify the strengths of such an approach. But that requires the Skybreakers to actually care whether their chosen code really is a viable path to justice, to actually wrestle with the question “What is justice?” After all, how is a new Skybreaker supposed to decide what code to use as their Third Ideal in the first place? It’s not a decision to be taken lightly. But Nale and the modern Skybreakers seem to take the attitude that any old code will do, and the actual contents of the Ideal aren’t important—up to and including swearing to follow another equally flawed and malleable human! That’s not justice, and it’s not an adequate answer to human fallibility. This is the paradox of the modern Skybreakers: they know they are fallible, they do not trust themselves to judge what is right or wrong, so they follow an external moral code. But first they must choose the moral code. So, the relationship of the Third Ideal to DA1 is murky. What about DA2, “confident”? On its face, the idea that you must replace your own moral intuition with an external code seems extremely unconfident. In fact, it almost sounds obedient, which is a DA for a whole different order. Nale is always going on about how even he cannot really trust himself. And yet, it seems that a strict code is exactly what gives Skybreakers relief from self-doubt and the confidence to act decisively: Quote “You are questioning, Szeth-son-Neturo. This is not good; this is weakness. To question is to accept a descent into inactivity.” -Nale, Edgedancer Quote [Szeth] feared only that he had made the wrong choice. Szeth expunged that fear. Nin was correct. Life could not be lived making decisions at each juncture. -OB Ch. 120 Quote “Then we will both fight with confidence, knowing that we obey the precepts of our oaths.” -Nale, on the prospect of fighting Szeth in the future, OB Ch. 121 So it seems that the Third Ideal is concerned with both DAs, and may in fact be more concerned with the secondary one that the primary one. Quote “Someday, you may achieve the Fourth Ideal: the Ideal of Crusade. In this, you choose a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of your highspren.” -Unnamed Skybreaker “I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees.” -Szeth’s intended Fourth Ideal, unclear if the Words are accepted as of yet. Finally, on to the Fourth Ideal. Presumably, there are limits on what kinds of quests a Highspren will accept as a Fourth Ideal. Taking it upon yourself to complete a quest seems to be a manifestation of confidence, but the quest itself is presumably concerned with dispensing justice. Without more detailed information, it seems like this Ideal reflects both DAs. Quote “The Ideal of Law,” Ki said. “It is difficult. You must become law, become truth. As I said, it has been centuries since that was achieved.” “Nin told me we were to follow the law—something external, as men are changeable and unreliable. How can we become the law?” “Law must come from somewhere,” another of the Skybreaker masters said. -OB Ch. 90 Quote “I have certain leniencies. The others have told you of the Fifth Ideal?” -Nale, who infuriatingly doesn’t actually go on to talk about the Fifth Ideal after this Ah, the mysterious one. I really have no idea what it means to “become law”. I wonder what Nale’s exact Words were. On the surface, becoming the law seems pretty confident, but… well, as I alluded to before, Skybreaker confidence is about as paradoxical as Skybreaker justice. They lack confidence in their own flawed judgement and choices. But they are confident in their choice to follow the law. But they admit that the law is flawed too. And then when they achieve the Fifth Ideal, they are allowed to have some confidence in their own judgement again? But the only existing Fifth Ideal Skybreaker still doesn’t have any confidence in himself. So is becoming the law an expression of confidence? Honestly at this point it is a toss-up. On top of that, this Ideal is clearly still concerned with the primary DA as well. Skybreakers Summary: Second Ideal: Straightforwardly expresses DA1, ‘just’. Third Ideal: Can potentially express DA1, but not guaranteed to do so. Arguably the focus on consistency means that DA2, ‘confident’ is a better fit. Fourth Ideal: Seems to be a mix of both DAs, but more information is needed. Fifth Ideal: Ultra mysterious. Definitely expresses DA1; relationship to DA2 is much murkier. Nale is insane and his Skybreakers are paradoxical. ----- In conclusion, the Divine Attributes are surely related to the Ideals, but since these are in-world cultural associations, they have just as much to do with the orders’ temperaments. In particular, there is no good reason to believe in a neat, clean, predictable schema where the Second and Third Ideals reflect the primary Divine Attribute, and the Fourth and Fifth Ideals reflect the secondary Divine Attribute. We just don't know enough about the late ideals, and many of the Ideals we do know are far too complex, nuanced, and flexible to force such a simplistic pattern on them.
Scion of the Mists Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 I don't think I've ever heard the Divine Attribute-Ideal theory before. I agree with you, though, that the connection seems pretty tenuous. I feel like the Divine attributes are so vague that they could apply to many different Ideals (similar to how the results from personality "tests" are so general that most people would identify with them).
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