Did Honor and Cultivation influence how their Intents were expressed?

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I was just thinking, do we think that because Honor and Cultivation were lovers that they influenced how each of them ultimately came to express their respective Intents? Because from what we've seen of each of them individually, it does seem that they each express at least a minimal degree of the others' Intent as well, with Honor trying to groom (i.e. 'Cultivate') the Rosharans to be more honorable and grow as a people, and Cultivation through the Nightwatcher seeming to tailor her boons/curses to the individual and at least in the case of Dalinar actively cultivating him into a much more honorable man over time.

Is this just a coincidence, or is there some kind of direct causal influence occurring between the two of them as far as this is concerned? Because as far as we know, nothing similar to this occurred in the case of Ruin and Preservation or Dominion and Devotion, though admittedly in the case of the latter we simply lack any sufficient information to say one way or the other. 

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

To be honest, I don't really know how a shard can operate according to another's intent without picking up that shard. There aren't any in-world mechanics I can think of that would explain that.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

To be honest, I don't really know how a shard can operate according to another's intent without picking up that shard. There aren't any in-world mechanics I can think of that would explain that.

This wouldn't be a magical mechanic. This would be a choice on the part of the Vessels. 

@Fanghur Rahl considering they were lovers, and Honor's death has been implied to have a profound effect on Cultivation in world... I wouldn't be surprised by it at all. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

This wouldn't be a magical mechanic. This would be a choice on the part of the Vessels. 

@Fanghur Rahl considering they were lovers, and Honor's death has been implied to have a profound effect on Cultivation in world... I wouldn't be surprised by it at all. 

Is it possible that there may literally have been a small degree of blending of their Intents from their ‘being together’ as Shards, assuming Shards are even capable of doing that?

[Scion of the Mists]

On 11/2/2018 at 6:30 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honor trying to groom (i.e. 'Cultivate') the Rosharans to be more honorable and grow as a people, and Cultivation through the Nightwatcher seeming to tailor her boons/curses to the individual and at least in the case of Dalinar actively cultivating him into a much more honorable man over time.

These seem like fairly tenuous connections that you could make between any of the Shards: Honor was trying to "Preserve" humanity (by not letting them get wiped out), the Nightwatcher offered Dalinar a "Ruinous" blade, Cultivation clearly has a very "Ambitious" plan, etc.  

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:43 PM, Calderis said:

This wouldn't be a magical mechanic. This would be a choice on the part of the Vessels. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a shard was heavily (if not overwhelmingly) influenced by their intent over time. If that is the case, I find it difficult to see how Honor could adopt part of Cultivation's intent without picking up the shard.

[vikorr]

 I think our original poster is confusing words with Shardic intent.

Honour will always try and cultivate honor. It's in the shards nature. The word 'cultivate' is just another word for "bring about", "increase", "imbue" etc. It's impossible for him to help his subjects become more honourable, without 'cultivating' such.

Cultivation, with Dalinar, was following her shardic intent of growth. She specifically says something along the lines of "Sometimes you have to prune, in order to grow". That's a very cultivation thing to do. She didn't specifically look for honour, but growth.

[goody153]

Considering how weird and focused vessels of shards can be. I think Honor and Cultivation can separate their own love from their shard intent 

similar to (MISTBORN FRANCHISE SPOILERS below)

Spoiler

How our Hero of Ages could have no problem having both intent of Ruin and Preservation when they're completely opposite. Like HoA could equally sees the important of both while having his own personal opinions. 

Shards are weird.

But it might influence the intent considering the intent is still a product of "interpretation" by the vessel which is still based on how they view things and what do they stand in life. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a shard was heavily (if not overwhelmingly) influenced by their intent over time. If that is the case, I find it difficult to see how Honor could adopt part of Cultivation's intent without picking up the shard.

The Vessel can have a strong role. They aren't all like Ruin. Just look at Odium. 

What the Vessel chooses to do with their power is bounded by their intent yes. If they choose to do something with that power that is not forbidden  by the intent, then it shouldn't be an issue. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Whatever Odium claims about her, I don’t think that Cultivation actually is apathetic about the kind of growth she causes. I think it’s pretty clear that she does care. Otherwise, I think she would be pretty much identical to the Shimmer from the movie Annihilation, which incidentally is almost exactly how Odium incorrectly describes her. So I don’t find it at all improbable  that her relationship with Honor helped determine the way she channels her intent, or vice versa. Technically, Honor doesn’t have to cultivate honor in others. He could instead merely have enforced it. Like Nale for example. His ‘intent’ (not literally, just an analogy) is justice, but he couldn’t care less about making others value it too outside of his Skybreakers, he only cares about enforcing it. 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:30 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

I was just thinking, do we think that because Honor and Cultivation were lovers that they influenced how each of them ultimately came to express their respective Intents? Because from what we've seen of each of them individually, it does seem that they each express at least a minimal degree of the others' Intent as well, with Honor trying to groom (i.e. 'Cultivate') the Rosharans to be more honorable and grow as a people, and Cultivation through the Nightwatcher seeming to tailor her boons/curses to the individual and at least in the case of Dalinar actively cultivating him into a much more honorable man over time.

Is this just a coincidence, or is there some kind of direct causal influence occurring between the two of them as far as this is concerned? Because as far as we know, nothing similar to this occurred in the case of Ruin and Preservation or Dominion and Devotion, though admittedly in the case of the latter we simply lack any sufficient information to say one way or the other. 

The combining of intents seems to come from combining of investitures in Spren on Roshar. We see thins combining of intents reflected with the Radiants. As you say there is a growing of honorable conduct. They swear oaths and gain power, but they don't swear them all at once. There is a Progression to it and it seems to designed to gradually grow them into more honorable people.

I think this is a result of the Vessels being lovers pre-shattering and most of the Spren on Roshar being a combination of Honor and Cultivation's investiture. The Spren are their kids and their kids take after both of them to some degree. 

 

Quote

 

EuroCon 2016 (Nov. 5, 2016)
#6 

Questioner

Hi. I have two questions about the Cosmere. The first one is if a Radiant can have a bond with two spren, and the other one is if Truthwatcher spren are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so RAFO on if a Knight Radiant can have two spren. But the second question was, "Are spren of Cultivation?" One more time?

Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

 

 

I would argue the Thrill seems like a mix of Cultivation and Odium. By causing people to go beserk in battle and become addicted to that feeling, The Thrill causes people to kill each other more frequently and often unnecessarily which causes more grief and bitterness which grows more hatred in the world. We don't know what The Thrill was before it was Unmade, but given that it's red maybe it was of Cultivation and Odium co-opted it.