Radiants magnitude of brokenness is irrelevant

[signspace13 he/him]

Something I feel everyone is missing is that it doesn't seem to be just brokenness that makes you a Radiant but showing an outstanding virtue through that brokenness like Honesty, Honor, Leadership, and Bravery and loyalty.

 

and so far I think that everyone who is a radiant deserves it, Renarin for his loyalty, Shallan for her Honesty (or her ability to make others honest), Kaladin through his Honor, and Dalinar for his Leadership.

 

Shallan has shown that she can bring out the best in people by telling them how she sees them or how they could be seen, perhaps this has always been a quality of Shallan, as it has been said that shallan had a shardblade and a spren even before she lost her mother.

 

Something that was said that i can't quite recall where was that even with Radiant's spren, you have to show their virtue to attract them, just like any other spren. so maybe instead of finding all of the broken Characters in the books and pointing "Radiant!", and then discussing how broken they are, we should consider what we know of their character to judge it's possibility not exactly how broken we think they are.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

It's hard to tell if what you see in characters is even a fraction of what has happened to them or how they have been effected. Shallan is a great example of a character who would appear normal on the outside, but has actually had a lot happen to her. So pointing out characters with shaky values or pasts can only do so much anyway. 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Take an upvote from me.  A "cracked soul" is necessary for bonding with a spren, but I don't think that is what attracts the spren in the first place.  Some pretty serious virtue is also needed.

 

People who are "merely" broken won't attract spren in the first place.

 

People who have the right virtue but without cracks will attract spren, but then not be able to bond it.

 

Not sure I'd go so far as to call the magnitude of brokenness irrelevant, though.  So far we only have detailed backstory for Kaladin and Shallan, both of whom are seriously mangled!  That might not be necessary, but it seems quite likely that it is.

Edited May 6, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[qqemonte he/him]

I more or less agree with the creator of this thread. True virtues can only be determined through testings... And this so called situation of 'brokenness' will determine whether a person's virtues are true or not. It's easy to be honorable in the face of comfort but how about in the face of tragedy.. would someone still be able to uphold his principles and values? I think this is the way for sprens to filter radiant candidates. The more they level up in their ideals, the more their virtues are tested... like what happened to both Kaladin and Shallan...         

[RenegadeShroom]

(Darn. Sorry, I accidentally downvoted you, signspace. Someone care to balance that out with an upvote?)

 

It's hard to tell if what you see in characters is even a fraction of what has happened to them or how they have been effected. Shallan is a great example of a character who would appear normal on the outside, but has actually had a lot happen to her. So pointing out characters with shaky values or pasts can only do so much anyway.

 

I don't know, it should be a simple enough task to see how someone exemplifies a certain trait through their viewpoint, and if interacting with other viewpoint characters, those too. As we saw with Syl, a proto-Radiant who spends too long not fulfilling that trait will end up without a spren. I think that identifying characters who are broken should be more difficult than identifying those who exemplify the virtue they need to attract a spren, because we don't necessarily know their histories.

 

Actually, finding characters who are both broken and exemplify a virtue should be more difficult than just finding instances of one or the other.

[hoser he/him]

(Darn. Sorry, I accidentally downvoted you, signspace. Someone care to balance that out with an upvote?)

done

[signspace13 he/him]

I think I was wrong to say irrelevant, but "Isn't they only thing" didn't have the same ring to it. I still think the focus on it has been too high, I mean, I have been rooting for a few more radiants but every time we here about one they get compared to Kal and Shallan's for Brokenness, and truly I don't really want any more Kals and Shallans, they are unique in their brokenness, that why they are main Characters. so really just think we should stop thinking of them as the benchmark when they are obviously far from ordinary.

[Leuthie]

The spren has to have an opening to enter the Physical. The spren also has to have synergy with what its bonding with.

The virtues create synergy which attracts the spren. The crack gives it something to fill. More synergy, stronger bond. Larger crack, more access to the Physical realm.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Leuthie

[signspace13 he/him]

The spren has to have an opening to enter the Physical. The spren also has to have synergy with what its bonding with.

The virtues create synergy which attracts the spren. The crack gives it something to fill. More synergy, stronger bond. Larger crack, more access to the Physical realm.

 

this is interesting, Is say this because it meansa radiant has two ways oif being more powerful,

 

1. be more broken (can't really be consciously changed)

2. live closer to your ideals

 

if this is the case then we have barely seen any of what Kal and Shallan can do, because they are pretty broken, but it certainly means that their magnitude of brokenness matters, which is something i don't really like, it's like saying to someone "oh you want to be more powerful so you can help people better? go be suicidal for awhile that will help".

 

but i still like the theory, have an upvote

[digitalbusker he/him]

Tests are a gift. And great tests are a great gift.

--1pt

[maxal she/her]

if this is the case then we have barely seen any of what Kal and Shallan can do, because they are pretty broken, but it certainly means that their magnitude of brokenness matters, which is something i don't really like, it's like saying to someone "oh you want to be more powerful so you can help people better? go be suicidal for awhile that will help".

 

Wasn't Teft's family involved in a sect that believe exactly just that? They constantly tried to put themselves into suicidal situations just to "force" a bond to happen? I wonder if we will see a character try to attempt just that?

[signspace13 he/him]

Wasn't Teft's family involved in a sect that believe exactly just that? They constantly tried to put themselves into suicidal situations just to "force" a bond to happen? I wonder if we will see a character try to attempt just that?

 

hm, forgot about them, and yeah maybe one will, lets all hope it's no one we like, i mean i would be fine if Mr T gave it a go (not a fan) but i hope none of bridge for takes Teft's families example.

[maxal she/her]

hm, forgot about them, and yeah maybe one will, lets all hope it's no one we like, i mean i would be fine if Mr T gave it a go (not a fan) but i hope none of bridge for takes Teft's families example.

 

Yeah Mr T jumping down a chasm just to get a bond would be nice.....................

[kaellok he/him]

this is interesting, Is say this because it meansa radiant has two ways oif being more powerful,

 

1. be more broken (can't really be consciously changed)

2. live closer to your ideals

 

if this is the case then we have barely seen any of what Kal and Shallan can do, because they are pretty broken, but it certainly means that their magnitude of brokenness matters, which is something i don't really like, it's like saying to someone "oh you want to be more powerful so you can help people better? go be suicidal for awhile that will help".

 

but i still like the theory, have an upvote

 

Presumably, the Heralds are stronger than a KR.  They also spend an inordinate amount of time hanging out in Damnation, and are pretty broken as a result.  This could easily help to explain a power difference between them and KR (and possibly explain why they go to Damnation between the Desolations, especially since WoB is that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor, and not including Odium at all.)

 

[signspace13 he/him]

Presumably, the Heralds are stronger than a KR.  They also spend an inordinate amount of time hanging out in Damnation, and are pretty broken as a result.  This could easily help to explain a power difference between them and KR (and possibly explain why they go to Damnation between the Desolations, especially since WoB is that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor, and not including Odium at all.)

 

 

Hmm that does make an interesting point, but I don't quite agree, with the idea that the heralds were stronger than the radiants or that they go to damnation to be more powerful. The thing that makes the heralds special isn't that they are surgebinders, that comes from their honorblades, and based on what Syl said about an honor blade not requiring the same checks as a spren I don't think brokenness would be a factor in their power.

 

The thing that a herald special is that they are immortal. I think they are slivers of honor in a similar way that the returned a a sliver of endowment. but they have retained memories of their afterlife and they know what their mission is to stop.

[Asejet he/him]

Sprens are bonded to broken who healed themselves to belive in virtue in extreame situations and become cracked so can bonding with spren can fill that crack

[signspace13 he/him]

Sprens are bonded to broken who healed themselves to belive in virtue in extreame situations and become cracked so can bonding with spren can fill that crack

Thank you for your extreme eloquence in restating what I originally posted. this thread is made to get people to focus more on the virtues of becoming a radiant and less on the brokenness, and from what I have seen around the forum, it has worked well enough.

 

Edit: even if this thread wasn't the actual cause.

Edited May 10, 2014 by signspace13

[royishere]

I honestly thought this thread was about the Radiants' high power level, and how "broken" they were compared to, say, an allomancer....

[signspace13 he/him]

I honestly thought this thread was about the Radiants' high power level, and how "broken" they were compared to, say, an allomancer....

I guess that is also something that could thought about as well, but if you ask me the balance is made with the ideals, think of the knights radiant as the future Cosmere police and special forces, made to keep everyone else in line, sought of, i think this mostly because they have to follow their Ideals, where as a mistborn is unrestricted in his power.I also think that a lerasium mistborn would be quite a bit of trouble even for a windrunner, especially if he knew what he was fighting.

 

but as the title suggests i don't think their brokenness is to blame for them being radiants, I understand that you have to be broken to form a Nahel bond due to the whole 'crack in the soul to fill' thing, but I feel everyone has been focusing to much on that than the obviously good poeple in the book, i think poeple like Rysn and Adolin have some pretty high chances of becoming KR not because they are broken but because they are good poeple who show the qualities required to become KR.

[maxal she/her]

 

 

but as the title suggests i don't think their brokenness is to blame for them being radiants, I understand that you have to be broken to form a Nahel bond due to the whole 'crack in the soul to fill' thing, but I feel everyone has been focusing to much on that than the obviously good poeple in the book, i think poeple like Rysn and Adolin have some pretty high chances of becoming KR not because they are broken but because they are good poeple who show the qualities required to become KR.

 

I believe that too. I felt many people focus too much on who's had a hard life, who's "broken enough" and not enough on who exhibits that right qualities. I agree many characters were (or are) broken, but it doesn't mean they have what it takes.

 

One example that comes to mind is Elhokar. Some people believe he will be a KR because he is "sort of broken" (well he is wailing in self pity, I do not know if it qualifies as being broken or not, but let's say it does) and he supposedly sees "some sort of spren". My whole issue with it is that Elhokar has not exhibit any of the qualities one of the Radiant need to have. If we look at our crew, there primary attribute is the strongest component of their whole personality. Kaladin has the HUGE desire to protect people; Shallan is IMMENSELY creative, Dalinar is ANNOYINGLY pious and well we don't enough about the others just yet, but I suppose the same parallel could be made. Elhokar has not shown any of those qualities.

 

On the other hand, Adolin is the EMBODIMENT of bravery. It defines him just as strongly as the desire to protect people defines Kal. He has the primary attribute, but not the crack. However, breaking down would not be enough, he would need to go through it by being even more brave than before, much like Kal went over his breakdown by protecting the bridgemen. If he does this, then yes he should be a KR.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

I believe that too. I felt many people focus too much on who's had a hard life, who's "broken enough" and not enough on who exhibits that right qualities. I agree many characters were (or are) broken, but it doesn't mean they have what it takes.

 

It seems pretty clear that you need both attributes.   Right qualities to attract a spren in the first place, plus a cracked soul for the spren to bond with once it arrives.

 

There are plenty of people who could count as cracked (eg. Roshone) but clearly lack the necessary character.   But I don't think it's as simple as being a "good" character, as we have seen that each Radiant order values different aspects and at least in the past have violently disagreed about goals and fought with each other.   The defining characteristic seems to be to focus obsessively on the right narrowly defined objective - things which in moderation are clearly good but could become harmful when taken to excess  (eg. Skybreakers).

[maxal she/her]

It seems pretty clear that you need both attributes.   Right qualities to attract a spren in the first place, plus a cracked soul for the spren to bond with once it arrives.

 

There are plenty of people who could count as cracked (eg. Roshone) but clearly lack the necessary character.   But I don't think it's as simple as being a "good" character, as we have seen that each Radiant order values different aspects and at least in the past have violently disagreed about goals and fought with each other.   The defining characteristic seems to be to focus obsessively on the right narrowly defined objective - things which in moderation are clearly good but could become harmful when taken to excess  (eg. Skybreakers).

 

Which is why I believe there is second attribute... I believe the fist attribute is what qualifies someone to be a potential KR, the second attribute is what keeps under control. I mean, giving too much power to people is a bad thing, unless you can think on a control mechanisn and for me, the second attribute is just that. All KR we have seen so far, have issues with their second attributes, they have to work to achieve it, whereas the first attribute is part of their personality, it always is something given or taken for granted.