Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 Something I've been wondering about is taking up a shard if someone already has some differences from the standard understanding of taking up a shard. The normal way it has been shown is someone with one body, one mind or soul, and one spirit, taking it up, and so expanding their mind, loosing their body - theoretically it being stored much like a shard blade - and their spirit binding into the shard. They then can sense all three realms, affect them, and control the power of the shard as though it were their own body. But what if there are these four conditions, three of which I think are very very similar ... Spren The first scenario is that of a spren taking up a shard. Spren, or splinters in general, lake a physical body, but some, such as cognitive shadows, can regain their physical form, or like Nightblood, be bound into one. Theoretically, there is no distinction between a spren and a cognitive shadow, and a Returned is similar to a normal human. If a Returned could take up a shard, then so could any other cognitive shadow - assuming, of course, that a Return could. Of course, in Secret History, it was shown that, under the right circumstances, a cognitive shadow could take up a shard without a physical body, though in a reduced state. So, I think that a spren would likewise be capable of doing so, even lacking a physical body. However, I remember reading that Brandon has said that its complicated with spren taking up shards, having said before that he isn't ready to talk about it, or that the question isn't well said. With that in mind, I think that one should also consider that Brandon has said that if they did, they would combine into a larger shard, and has said shards can gain their own minds if left by themselves. I don't see how a spren, with its own mind, is any different from a person with their own spirit made of investiture taking up a shard. If there are any differences, then how is Kelsier any different? That might be revealed. Knights Knights are bound, a spren becoming a part of their spirits. If a Knight took up a shard, I think the spren would also gain access to the shard, the two sharing it, or the spren as a subordinate to the knight, but still able to act independently. The spren lakes a physical body, but is part of the knight. Shardblades require the bond to the knight, and so might not be considered bodies, but together the spren, as part of the knight, would be connected to the shard, and have access to it. It might also be, however, that their minds would merge, and so the spren would become a part of the person with the shard, and might only be a separate being again after the shard is released, if it is. Several This is an expansion of the knights idea, but now with several people involved. I think that each person, assuming they don't fight one another when trying to take up the shard, and also not fighting one another when using the shards, would be in complete control of the shard, while sharing that control, able to act independently of the others, and able to work with them, possibly leave the planet and the others, and possibly be able to give that control away while the others continue to retain their power. If my theory about how Stormlight will end is correct, then ten spren and the ten people they are bonded to will take up Honour and a mixture of Cultivation or Odium, and so resolve the damage left to their system, much like a counter to Harmony - instead of one person with two, it will be ten or twenty people taking up one, or one and a half, maybe more. Multiple personality disorder Fiction often portrays multiple personality disorder differently to how it often manifests, and confuses it with schizophrenia. This is not to evaluate how fiction portrays it differently, but rather to consider it from the perspective that it usually is shown, that of several minds in one body. I think this would be very similar to the several people example given, and I think it might also be what happened with Bavadin, Autonomy being the shard taken by someone with multiple minds that wanted to have their own autonomy, and so took the shard that would let them be able to act independently, but also able to co-operate. I think that Bavadin's mind had several female personas, assuming Bavadin is male, and that the avatars are a mixture of those original personalities, and new ones that they formed, possibly formed according to specific criteria. This could also explain why Brandon likes Autonomy so much, as it lets a single shard be antagonist and protagonist, the different avatars fighting amongst themselves, and also governed by a council of the stronger and theoretically more temperate. 2
Scion of the Mists Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 16 hours ago, Ixthos said: Spren The first scenario is that of a spren taking up a shard. Spren, or splinters in general, lake a physical body, but some, such as cognitive shadows, can regain their physical form, or like Nightblood, be bound into one. Theoretically, there is no distinction between a spren and a cognitive shadow, and a Returned is similar to a normal human. If a Returned could take up a shard, then so could any other cognitive shadow - assuming, of course, that a Return could. Of course, in Secret History, it was shown that, under the right circumstances, a cognitive shadow could take up a shard without a physical body, though in a reduced state. So, I think that a spren would likewise be capable of doing so, even lacking a physical body. However, I remember reading that Brandon has said that its complicated with spren taking up shards, having said before that he isn't ready to talk about it, or that the question isn't well said. With that in mind, I think that one should also consider that Brandon has said that if they did, they would combine into a larger shard, and has said shards can gain their own minds if left by themselves. I don't see how a spren, with its own mind, is any different from a person with their own spirit made of investiture taking up a shard. If there are any differences, then how is Kelsier any different? That might be revealed. While similar in some respects, spren and Cognitive Shadows are fundamentally different entities. Spren are self-aware splinters of a Shard, while a Cognitive Shadow is a person's spirit which has been prevented from moving Beyond. A spren cannot Ascend because it's just a piece of Investiture. If it were to merge with a "whole" Shard, it would just make a slightly larger Shard (see the below WoB, which is more recent than the "not ready to comment" WoB). It wouldn't be able to function as the Vessel, as it's not and never was a physical being. Quote Questioner What happens when a... spren picks up a Shard? ... Brandon Sanderson *hesitantly* It's like you're asking if electricity can gain a charge of electricity and get electrified. Does that make sense? I mean-- It's a question that doesn't make a lot of sense. If a shard were to somehow-- They would just combine into a bigger shard and get larger-- if that makes sense? source 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted October 2, 2018 Author Posted October 2, 2018 @Scion of the Mists The thing is though that Fused are both cognitive shadows and spren, and are mistaken for spren on Roshar. Indeed, Rosharan terminology calls anything made of investiture a spren, including shards. A spren is made of investiture with a mind, as you said a splinter, while a shadow is a mind that is imprinted on investiture, a splinter shaped into a mind. Brandon has compared it to fossilisation, the process where a bone becomes stone, the original matter gone but the shape preserved. Unless I mistook what happened to him, Kelsier effectively turned into a splinter, not passing on because his cognitive aspect had been replaced by investiture. Unless somehow there is a "membrane" or sheath that isolates the investiture that makes up the mind of a cognitive shadow or human from a shard that a spren or other splinter lacks, how does a cognitive shadow, made of investiture in the shape of a mind, differ from a spren? When Kelsier merged with Preservation, what kept him from merging to the shard, especially considering that the investiture that he was made from was mainly Preservation to begin with - after all, how much of his original cognitive component remained?
Calderis he/him Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 Rosharans would call a Cognitive Shadow a spren. A Cognitive Shadow, though anchored by the investiture of a Shard, cannot be a Splinter. Splinters were never human, and need not be sentient/sapient. Quote Puck (paraphrased) How is a Splinter different from a Sliver? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Let me see... You have met splinters in Elantris, Warbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn. Puck (paraphrased) I feel like we know that. So, qualitatively, what's the difference? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human. Puck (paraphrased) But it derives from a Shard's power. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. That's not it completely, but there's at least something to think about. source The Honorblades are also Splinters, as are the Divine Breath that anchors a Returned. In the case of a spren taking up a Shard, what I personally think would happen, is that the Spren(speaking specifically of Rosharan Splinters here, not the near meaningless way Rosharans use it) would be subsumed within the greater power of the Shard... But at the same time they would seed their mind inside that. So a mind would be far far more likely to develop. What finally emerged would not be the original spren, but its personality would be based around the type of spren and the personality of what was. 1
Scion of the Mists Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) So terms like spren and splinter are somewhat problematic in that they can have very, very broad definitions. A Rosharan would consider basically everything made of Investiture a spren, including Nightblood, Shards, and Adonalsium. Similarly with splinters, Brandon has said that he would consider most Cognitive Shadows splinters "in some ways." However, super general definitions like this aren't really useful. If "spren" can mean anything from a true Rosharan spren, a Shard, even Adonalsium, then there's no point to even using it because it's not specific enough. It's much more useful (and indeed, in line with how most people refer to things) to limit the terminology. So spren would refer to just the Rosharan version (or to any self-aware splinter, but I prefer the former definition), with splinter being the general term for a portion of Investiture (that's much smaller than a full Shard). With respect to Cognitive Shadows, you may be able to stretch the definition of "splinter" to encompass them, but it's much more useful to have the be mutually exclusive categories and require a person. Edited October 2, 2018 by Scion of the Mists 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted October 7, 2018 Author Posted October 7, 2018 Apologies for the delay in responding! @Calderis, as @Scion of the Mists has noted, there doesn't seem to be a clear distinction between a Cognitive shadow and a splinter. My main issue is that I can accept if Brandon says there is something different in the structure of a cognitive shadow that makes them distinct, but there doesn't seem to be any, and so any issue with a spren taking up a shard should apply to a cognitive shadow. If there is some membrane a cognitive shadow has that a spren lacks, something to prevent the soul of the vessel from dissolving into the shard and being lost ... I do agree with you that - assuming spren can't take up a shard without loosing their distinctive nature - then the mind of the spren would become a seed for a new mind in the shard, in much the same way that if Odium took up another shard, or part of another, it would change, becoming something different, though still with the same memories and, depending on the composition of the new combined shard, a similar personality. But then again, a human taking up a shard is also changed, and it could be argued Ati was no-longer the same person he was after taking up Ruin, though it took some time, so why would it not take time with a spren? If we continue to talk about splinters, and take @Scion of the Mists's suggestion to instead speak about splinters, then that adds a new dimension to the discussion of Knights, or anyone bonded to a splinter. What would happen, for example, to a Selite bonded to a Seon if they took up a shard? Or a Herald or someone else bonded to an Honourblade? Or a Returned? Would the splinter attached to them remain distinct after taking it up? Could they manifest it physically again, or would it merge with them and become a single whole?
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