Symmetry / Cymatics Images (Spoilers (probably))

[Maffu17 he/him]

I know this has been discussed, particularly by Satsuoni and ccstat who provided most of these comparisons, but I thought i'd put the images side by side for the benefit of anyone curious about Kabsal's Cymatics. 

 

So what is the connection with all these Fractals, Cymatics, and Symmetry?

 

I'm assuming the dawn cities were created by manipulating the surges of tension (to make rock into liquid) and then some form of vibration surge (cohesion?) to manipulate the liquid, then re-harden it when the appropriate shape has developed. 

 

What about the Julia Set Fractal of Roshar? Is a Fractal just a 3 or 4 dimensional Cymatic?

 

 

 

Thaylen City:                                                  Cymatic Pattern at 2041hz:

 

 

 

Akinah City:                                                  Fymatic from member Satsuoni?:

 

 

 

Map of Vedenar:                                            Hexagonal Cymatic Symbol

 

 

 

Kholinar City Map:                                               Cymatic Symbol:

 

 

 

 

Misc.

 

 

 

 

Order of the Willshapers:                             Another Cymatic Pattern:

 

 

 

 

 

Mystery glyph:                                 Snowflake(naturally created by Cymatics):

 

 

 

 

I didn't even get chance to check out what Gemstones are like at the molecular level, and whether the are latticed in symmetrical patterns but this being Brandon i'm sure there's a tie-in with the above content.

 

Credit goes to whoever created the images above, none of it is my own I just gathered it here for clarity.

 

I trawled for hours to find these images and you would not believe the amount of hokum associated with Cymatics; ancient wisdom, hidden secrets, crop circles, healing crystals, how dare they hijack and soil mathematics in their greed to fleece the naive, anyway, blah I need to go wash my brain. 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2014 by Maffu17

[Shaggai]

I know this has been discussed, particularly by Satsuoni and ccstat who provided most of these comparisons, but I thought i'd put the images side by side for the benefit of anyone curious about Kabsal's Cymatics. 

 

So what is the connection with all these Fractals, Cymatics, and Symmetry?

 

I'm assuming the dawn cities were created by manipulating the surges of tension (to make rock into liquid) and then some form of vibration surge (cohesion?) to manipulate the liquid, then re-harden it when the appropriate shape has developed. 

 

What about the Julia Set Fractal of Roshar? Is a Fractal just a 3 or 4 dimensional Cymatic?

 

 

 

Thaylen City:                                                  Cymatic Pattern at 2041hz:

 

 

 

Akinah City:                                                  Fymatic from member Satsuoni?:

 

 

 

Map of Vedenar:                                            Hexagonal Cymatic Symbol

 

 

 

Kholinar City Map:                                               Cymatic Symbol:

 

 

 

 

Misc.

 

 

 

 

Order of the Willshapers:                             Another Cymatic Pattern:

 

 

 

 

 

Mystery glyph:                                 Snowflake(naturally created by Cymatics):

 

 

 

 

I didn't even get chance to check out what Gemstones are like at the molecular level, and whether the are latticed in symmetrical patterns but this being Brandon i'm sure there's a tie-in with the above content.

 

Credit goes to whoever created the images above, none of it is my own I just gathered it here for clarity.

 

I trawled for hours to find these images and you would not believe the amount of hokum associated with Cymatics; ancient wisdom, hidden secrets, crop circles, healing crystals, how dare they hijack and soil mathematics in their greed to fleece the naive, anyway, blah I need to go wash my brain.

 

The complementary Willshaper image is missing for me.

[Maffu17 he/him]

 

The complementary Willshaper image is missing for me.

 

Before posting I had to redo the entire thing as I uploaded all the images in .png and the forum didn't accept them. Must have missed one, thanks Shaggai.

 

The Willshaper isn't a match, but I linked it anyway because it got me thinking Glyphs may also have their own Cymatics, although without a Chladni set-up of my own it's difficult to experiment ^^.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Maffu17

[Shaggai]

Before posting I had to redo the entire thing as I uploaded all the images in .png and the forum didn't accept them. Must have missed one, thanks Shaggai.

 

The Willshaper isn't a match, but I linked it anyway because it got me thinking Glyphs may also have their own Cymatics, although without a Chladni set-up of my own it's difficult to experiment ^^.

You're welcome. Now that I see it, though, I don't really think it looks very much at all like the Willshaper glyph.

[Tempus]

As long as you're investigating...

• Kholinar has threefold symmetry.
• Vedenar has sixfold symmetry.
• Thaylen city has eightfold symmetry.
• Akinah City has tenfold symmetry.

Chances are very good that there are six missing cities, and that they comprise the symmetries up to ten. Well, I guess one-fold symmetry isn't a thing, haha. Still, there were ten silver kingdoms, and I'm suspecting there will be ten Dawncities as well. And maybe some connection, hmm? Sesemalex Dar (spelling needs help) was supposed to have a unique pattern to it.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Tempus

[Shaggai]

Seselex Dar (spelling needs help)

Sesemalex Dar.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

As long as you're investigating...

• Kholinar has threefold symmetry.
• Vedenar has sixfold symmetry.
• Thaylen city has eightfold symmetry.
• Akinah City has tenfold symmetry.

Chances are very good that there are six missing cities, and that they comprise the symmetries up to ten. Well, I guess one-fold symmetry isn't a thing, haha. Still, there were ten silver kingdoms, and I'm suspecting there will be ten Dawncities as well. And maybe some connection, hmm? Sesemalex Dar (spelling needs help) was supposed to have a unique pattern to it.

If you're just going by total lines of symmetry, Kholinar actually has six lines of symmetry too: one for each side, one for each vertex. What you want here is n-fold rotational symmetry– where the shape will always remain the same image when rotated by 360/n degrees. With rotational symmetry, Kholinar would have threefold symmetry, Vedenar sixfold, Akinah City tenfold, and Thaylen City fourfold, as opposed to eightfold. Edited April 28, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Tempus]

If you're just going by total lines of symmetry, Kholinar actually has six lines of symmetry too: one for each side, one for each vertex. What you want here is n-fold rotational symmetry– where the shape will always remain the same image when rotated by 360/n degrees. With rotational symmetry, Kholinar would have threefold symmetry, Vedenar sixfold, Akinah City tenfold, and Thaylen City fourfold, as opposed to eightfold.

 

Yes, I was thinking discrete rotational symmetry all along, I just assumed we were condensing it here. I... didn't actually notice they were also symmetrical as well. Well, almost symmetrical. You're right about Thaylen, for some reason I thought that the reflective symmetry would count, in which case it would be eightfold, but that isn't the case obviously as it makes no sense.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Also, if Stormseat is a Dawncity and the mural is accurate, then it appears to have no rotational symmetry at all (or, alternatively, onefold rotational symmetry). It would be kinda sixfold-ish, but the Oathgate plateau interrupts it completely.

[Tempus]

Interestingly, the shattered plains has eight segments, making it an eightfold reflected symmetry design like I assumed Thaylen to be, or a traditional four fold design.

 

The Stormseat mural feels like something very strange to me. There are probably things going on about it that we don't have any idea about.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Interestingly, the shattered plains has eight segments, making it an eightfold reflected symmetry design like I assumed Thaylen to be, or a traditional four fold design.

 

The Stormseat mural feels like something very strange to me. There are probably things going on about it that we don't have any idea about.

 

Hmm. By pure rotational symmetry, it's definitely fourfold like Thaylen City. But, it could just as easily be measured in segments, making it eight, as you said. Then all cities would still have their own unique number. I wonder if that number also corresponds to a Herald/order. That would make Kholinar Chach's, Vedenar Shallash's (very fitting), Akinah City Ishi's, Thaylen City Vedel's, and Stormseat Kalak's.

[Tempus]

It would be nice if Stormseat was nine. That mural is really not accurate enough to make any valuable judgements, I feel, but... there is evidence that tentatively links Stormseat to the ninth order.

[Maffu17 he/him]

Jezrien: Would Brandon use a pure circular city to represent 1 rotational symmetry? Or a completely irregular shape like Sesemalix Dar.

Nalan: The city that's built into lines carved into the rock, the one Kaladin asks Sigzil about if it looks how I imagine would have 2 rotational symmetry.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Maffu17

[Maffu17 he/him]

I contradicted myself in the above quote. Sesemalex Dar is the city that's built in giant troughs. I always imagine it like a beast has clawed the landscape from North/South, meaning they'll have protection from either of the Storms. This would still in my mind's eye give it one or possibly twofold rotational symmetry depending on the pattern. 

 

I'm wondering where Kharbranth would feature, but it's likely not a previous Capital city, I did toy with the idea that the Palanaeum might have been the original city, being shaped like an inverted pyramid, and some think it was cut by the Dawnsingers themselves. However it's part of the Silver Kingdom known as Thalath. Which also contained Thaylen City which like an inverted pyramid also has fourfold rotational symmetry. Meaning it could be a possibility that each city in a given Silver Kingdom had the same rotational symmetry ie all Alethela has 3, all Valhav has 6.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Maffu17

[Maffu17 he/him]

WoB

Q:  Is the Palanaeum named for Palah?
A:  Yes.  In fact, it was named based on...it was Greek in our world...the Athenaeum?  It was based off of that.

 

It's a damnation shame the Palanaeum wasn't an inverted Pentagonal shape. As Palah is number 5 in the Ars Arcanum.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Maffu17

[Maffu17 he/him]

As a sidenote I just googled "Kholinar Map" and clicked images and the cymatic symbol in this post is the 2nd result next to the map of Kholinar ^^ because of this thread ^^

Edited May 3, 2014 by Maffu17