Spren and the Ideals

[Arin he/him]

My question has to do with Nohadon and the book Way of Kings. Surges existed before the book. So spren bonded with humans. Did the ideals exist also before the book? How or why do the spren require the oaths? Since Nohadon wrote WoK, did he copy ideals already in place or force them on Surge Binders and spren?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Arin

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I wonder why you associated the Ideals with The Way of Kings. I don't believe they had anything to do with the book.

Regardless, as far as we know the Ideals existed before the book. The spren require them because it is how being a Radiant works. The only prerequisite to become one is to display a set of ideals and follow them. The spren then make the Nahel Bond based on that. I've always felt that the ideals are necessary because of Honor. In order to be a Radiant, one must follow an honorable code.

I don't think the Ideals were forced upon the Radiants by any outside entity, but that they are simply natural, a part of the world.

Edited April 8, 2014 by GreyPilgrim

[Wherethewindgoes]

I wonder why you associated the Ideals with The Way of Kings. I don't believe they had anything to do with the book.

 

Isn't the first ideal of all the Radiants a quote from The Way of Kings? 

Edited April 8, 2014 by Wherethewindgoes

[Arin he/him]

At one point surgebinders existed before the KR were created. Someone created the order from those surgebinders (some think it was Nohadon) and the book WoK give lessons the KR use. It seems the ideals force the Spren and surgebinders into a "contract" that limit their behavior. In one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon mentions the surgebinders caused as much damage as the voidbringers.

Someone/something forced the ideals on spren and those ideals create KR now. If the ideals existed since the beggining, then why are they used to create KR now and not at the start.

I was trying to figure why they were imposed or who could impose them because they are imposed on some very big spren.

[duladen he/him]

I'm on mobile and don't have the link, but there was a theory here that the First Ideal is not actually necessary for forming a Nahel Bond. There's no big climactic moment when characters say the First Ideal.

I agree that it's most likely that it was a construct of forming the Knights Radiant and giving them a common code. In Dalinar's vision, Nohadon says, "Not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren." The First Ideal, created with the KR, would ensure the knights met a certain standard.

[The Ja he/him]

(Slight WoR spoilers) I have to agree that the first ideal is actually just the motto of the KR.  When Kaladin is at Honor Chasm, he is ready to throw himself off the edge.  This is definitely not life before death, but Syl seems to be just fine with it.  Yet when Kal just considers the idea of breaking his oaths, Syl begins to fade.

[Leuthie]

In the case of the chasm, he's conflicted. He hasn't made a solid decision and put a true plan of action in place.

Syl loses the bond when Kaladin actually takes action toward assassinating the king he's supposed to be protecting.

[batabab]

Is there any reference to when the spren appeared?

[Vaspin]

There is no reference to when the spren first appeared, but there is one as to how the actual orders were founded( comes from Words of Radiance

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

 

We were all led to believe it was Nohadon whom it was attributed the founding of the Knights Radiant but I came across that passage and I'm now unsure of who is responsible.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Vaspin