Celestial kingdoms...

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Morsk said:

Thanks for pointing this out. I only know LDS from mormon.org and Wikipedia, but the idea that Jesus is a demiurge who created the Earth is not something I'd ever heard; it sounds completely made up.

Many fantasy authors do copypaste their religion's theology into their fiction. Tolkein is famous not only for doing it, but for believing it was a sin not to. And sometimes they lie; Robert Jordan claimed not to be doing it, but fandom eventually found out he was a Freemason and held organized religion in disdain, which is what we see in his books. So I understand the impulse to go assuming Brandon is doing it too, but I believe Brandon is actually different and isn't doing it.

Yeah I think Brandon is making an effort to not insert his personal beliefs into his books. I mean, they are going to be there sometimes. I don't think it'd be possible for them not to influence his writing. But he makes an effort to offer things from multiple viewpoints, even ones he personally disagrees with, as part of his worldbuilding and learning, and tries to avoid any blatant insertion or definitive "this is the one true way" type theme.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well, there ARE some definite Mormon themes in the Cosmere, probably the biggest being mortals ascending to godhood, and also the idea of there being three distinct realms and one nebulous and ill-defined fourth ‘realm’ that God’s God presumably dwells in. Suffice it to say, Brandon’s story is vastly superior to Joseph Smith’s though. lol.

As an aside, I literally did a huge double-take when I read that Brandon was a Mormon; based on pretty much all of his writing, I had been sure that he must have been at the very least an agnostic.

[Ripheus23]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:23 PM, 1stBondsmith said:

In the original post there are several incorrect statements about how the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints understand the Godhead, and how kingdoms are governed, and a couple other misstatements. I am a lifelong member, and have studied our theology and other religions theology extensively, -and have taught ours extensively. It really appears that there was an intent of the original poster to make a discussion about those things by trolling them and then tying them very loosely to Brandon's writings. Brandon has clearly said he does not match any of his writings to his theological views. He admits he may be influenced by them. But there is no correlation as described by the OP. 

I don't know what the goal was, but sowing misinformation to start is a rotten way to get a discussion. I hope that wasn't the goal. I appreciate the way the community here has responded, as fans of the books. It is both kind and professional, but I did not want to have the OP statements taken at face value about our beliefs. You can go to several of many official sites, and have those subjects of our beliefs correctly explained..

https://www.lds.org/topics/creation?lang=eng says:

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Under the direction of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth (see Mosiah 3:8; Moses 2:1). From scripture revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith, we know that in the work of the Creation, the Lord organized elements that had already existed (see Abraham 3:24). He did not create the world “out of nothing,” as some people believe.

Also https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-5-the-creation?lang=eng says:

Quote

The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ said to those who were with Him, “We will go down, for there is space there, … and we will make an earth whereon these [the spirit children of our Father in Heaven] may dwell” (Abraham 3:24).

Under the direction of the Father, Christ formed and organized the earth. He divided light from darkness to make day and night. He formed the sun, moon, and stars. He divided the waters from the dry land to make seas, rivers, and lakes. He made the earth beautiful and productive. He made grass, trees, flowers, and other plants of all kinds. These plants contained seeds from which new plants could grow. Then He created the animals—fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind.

This is not a Gnostic demiurge scenario, but more like a Platonic one. In Plato's scheme, to my knowledge, the demiurge is not evil, but is still subordinate to the Form of the Good.

As for the visitation/ministration of the Godhead in relation to the three kingdoms, https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-stories/chapter-26-the-three-kingdoms-of-heaven-16-february-1832?lang=eng says:

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Righteous Saints will become like Heavenly Father and Jesus. All things will be theirs. They will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus forever. ... People in the terrestrial kingdom will see Jesus. But they cannot live with Heavenly Father and Jesus. ... People in the telestial kingdom will not see Jesus or Heavenly Father and cannot live with Them. However, angels will visit these people, and the Holy Ghost will teach them.

I apologize for any untoward appearance in my original statements, although I am confused as to why anyone would think there was anything untoward in them?

EDIT: On second thought, I realize my use of quotation marks in the OP might have been off-putting to the unawares reader. That is, it is possible to mistake them for scare-quotes. I have been obsessively rereading A Theory of Justice and picked up on Rawls' habit of using quotation marks to make special note of certain phrases, which is what I was actually doing in the OP. I would also like to note, for what it's worth, that the person I feel the most strongly about, more or less, of anyone I've ever met, is LDS, so having an unnecessarily sarcastic or hostile attitude towards the LDS community is totally not what I am about.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well, even though Brandon has explicitly said that he’s never going to give any definitive answers as to exactly what happens in the Beyond, I don’t think there’s any harm in speculating. Personally, my favourite theory (or model if you prefer) is that it’s something vaguely akin to what happens when people die in Peter F. Hamilton’s ‘Night’s Dawn’ trilogy. 

Basically, everyone has a soul that survives physical death, and it’s basically some kind of mind-imprinted quantum energy as opposed to mind-imprinted Investiture, and once a person dies their soul enters what is coincidentally also referred to as ‘the Beyond’. If they aren’t able to accept their death, they basically stay trapped there, able to get glimpses of the world they left behind (kind of like Kelsier in the Well) and still long for, but if the person is able to come to grips with and accept their death, their soul moves to the end point of the universe, called the Omega Point, where all souls merge together and effectively become the God of whatever the next universe is.

 

I very much doubt that this is what happens in the Cosmere, but hey, it’s as good a conjecture as any (and a pretty good series itself by the way, if you’re into fantasy-in-space).

[Ashspren]

I feel like Sanderson has done a really good job of showing multiple viewpoints in his books– for example, Jasnah and Dalinar. They both have very different viewpoints, but they hold so much respect for each other. 

Also, I saw a comment in here somewhere about Odium seeing himself as a god... well, of course. Rayse has an ego as big as the Alethi are tall. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well, Odium IS a god, at least if we would also consider beings like Zeus, Odin, Shiva, etc. as gods.

[Ripheus23]

Sanderson's distancing of explicit statements of LDS doctrine, from exposition re: the Cosmere's essence and structure, notwithstanding, it still remains that Sazed's, "There is some truth in all these religions," theory, is almost verbatim a copy of something that LDS missionaries and General Conference members have said upon occasion. The system of the Devotaries, with Callings and Glories, is reminiscent of the specific calling-system administered (if I'm not mistaken) by local LDS bishoprics. Also Shallan's description of creation-from-nothingness is a translation of the classical ex nihilo doctrine into the from-preexistent-substance model (i.e. substance in itself is not created, because it is not the kind of thing that is created or destroyed; it is objects over and above pure substance that this concept applies, as such, to). These things are not simply fabricated out of nowhere. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, even. Whenever I write stories, my beliefs about God have to find a place in what I'm writing if I think of those beliefs as important, universal, possibly necessary truths, no? Now, Sanderson actually is a little subversive in his usage of the inclusivism-minded phrase, to be honest. But I would look at him not as a traitor to or opponent of his church, but something along the lines of a reformer or case-tester, such as these things are (if anything).

EDIT: Before I forget, the whole, "I cannot trust anything not written on metal," or however that quote goes, is an almost obvious nod to the Book of Mormon being written on metal plates to preserve it during the post-Nephite era.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Ripheus23