Calderis he/him Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: I'm not sure what all Dalinar can do I am just saying what we have seen him do with the power. Vin absorbed the power directly into her being while Dalinar has his soul bonded to a spren that is also a Splinter/Cognitive Shadow of Honor. There is an extra layer of remove which may make a difference. Preservation wasn't splintered at the time and Honor is, even if Dalinar merged directly he wouldn't be as powerful as Vin & Lord Ruler were. Per Odium, at least temporarily, Dalinar "ascended." that means he held a significant portion of the Shards power. Obviously less than TLR wielded with the well, but it still means that he held it, not just bonded it through the Stormfather. Considering what the powers of a Bondsmith are, and that through the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast Dalinar is connected to the entirety of the shard, I think that Dalinar is uniquely suited to repair the Shard. He is connected through that Shadow to all of the pieces of Honor, as the shadow is of the vessel who held it all. With his power to forge Spiritual bonds, it seems likely to me that the shed will be restored. What is splintering other than severing the bonds that make the power cohesive? All of that power still exists, it's just not an interconnected whole. Edited July 30, 2018 by Calderis
tmnsquirtle Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Calderis said: Per Odium, at least temporarily, Dalinar "ascended." that means he held a significant portion of the Shards power. Obviously less than TLR wielded with the well, but it still means that he held it, not just bonded it through the Stormfather. Considering what the powers of a Bondsmith are, and that through the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast Dalinar is connected to the entirety of the shard, I think that Dalinar is uniquely suited to repair the Shard. He is connected through that Shadow to all of the pieces of Honor, as the shadow is of the vessel who held it all. With his power to forge Spiritual bonds, it seems likely to me that the shed will be restored. What is splintering other than severing the bonds that make the power cohesive? All of that power still exists, it's just not an interconnected whole. Oh man, I'm curious to see what that would look like. Would most of the spren just become a part of honor again? How would radiants be effected? I'm sure Sanderson has a cool plan for it but the prospect of a reunited honor seems really cool!
+Child of Hodor Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said: Unless it functions in a way analogous to Kaladin’s bond with Syl; when he violated his oaths, which could be thought of as the ‘intent’ of a Windrunner’s power (albeit in a very nebulous fashion), he effectively killed Syl, at least until he got his act back together. Maybe in that same vein, Dalinar wouldn’t be able to misuse Honor’s power without severing his connection to it in a similar way? I think it is less about misuse and more about not getting distracted by all that Honor represents and more focused on uniting. He knew he was losing and going to be splintered by Odium either way and he wanted to make sure the KR had access to at least some of his power. He put it in the Stormfather to safegaurd the splinter instead of in a person or a physical object. Spren don't die of old age and it can think for itself and choose who gets the power, unlike an object or location which anyone could stumble on. The visions and refrain of unite them where him trying to focus this bondsmith on what he felt was most important to defeating Odium. Dalinar keeps hearing "Unite Them". Tanavast wants him to be focused on uniting. I would argue Honor was inadequate to fight Odium because nearly everything Honor tried when he was alive failed and backfired horribly. The Oathpact failed, the Knights Radiant failed and took out ton of spren with them. Sheltering the humans fleeing Ashyn backfired horribly. Honor wants to fight "fair" and assumes humans will keep their word, honor their agreements. He has MAJOR blindspots someone as devious as Rayse/Odium could exploit. I'm not saying Honor was like "Honor sucks, l'm gonna kill myself and forge a different Shard". It was a last resort. Everything he tried failed and he was being killed and splintered by Odium. He was reflecting on where he went wrong and why he failed. Tanavast thought "I'm dying and going to be split into pieces. I should entrust a piece of myself to a Spren I trust and they can bond a KR. That way humans will have access to some of my power after Odium tears me apart. Where did I go wrong, what advice can I give to them? Focus on uniting." Quote Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)#1 Seons are Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Splinters of Devotion. Questioner Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall... Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather? Questioner The Stormfather. Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself. Questioner Does he have another Splinter? Brandon Sanderson So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.
+Child of Hodor Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, Calderis said: Per Odium, at least temporarily, Dalinar "ascended." that means he held a significant portion of the Shards power. Obviously less than TLR wielded with the well, but it still means that he held it, not just bonded it through the Stormfather. Considering what the powers of a Bondsmith are, and that through the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast Dalinar is connected to the entirety of the shard, I think that Dalinar is uniquely suited to repair the Shard. He is connected through that Shadow to all of the pieces of Honor, as the shadow is of the vessel who held it all. With his power to forge Spiritual bonds, it seems likely to me that the shed will be restored. What is splintering other than severing the bonds that make the power cohesive? All of that power still exists, it's just not an interconnected whole. I agree he held the power briefly, but most of the time the intentional splinter Honor created resides in the Stormfather meaning he didn't hold it fully. I don't agree that he had the power of the full Shard at his disposal. Why does Rayse bother splintering shards if it doesn't break their power up? If a person holds a piece of it automatically has access to all of it's power what is the point of splintering it and why does he keep doing it? He seems to think it is an effective way of preventing other from holding the full power of the shard. Although I agree with you that Honor put his splinter / cognitive shadow of Tanavast in a bondsmith spren with the idea of them bonding it back together eventually. Odium probably agrees with you as well. Odium tells Dalinar in Oathbringer "I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong."
Calderis he/him Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 50 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said: Oh man, I'm curious to see what that would look like. Would most of the spren just become a part of honor again? How would radiants be effected? I'm sure Sanderson has a cool plan for it but the prospect of a reunited honor seems really cool! It wouldn't change anything for the Spren or Radiants. Those spren were a part of honor when it was whole, they would just be connected back to the larger mass again. Splinters of something greater. Snipped to only show the relevant part (its a long one and only the end touches on this. Click the source if you want the context.) Quote Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. source 33 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: I don't agree that he had the power of the full Shard at his disposal. Why does Rayse bother splintering shards if it doesn't break their power up? If a person holds a piece of it automatically has access to all of it's power what is the point of splintering it and why does he keep doing it? He seems to think it is an effective way of preventing other from holding the full power of the shard. I didn't say the full power, I said a significant portion, and obviously less than TLR used with the well. Things would have happened very differently otherwise. And it's not holding a piece of Honor's power that is causing this. Splintering a Shard is not not going to let anyone using or connected to a Splinter do what Dalinar has. That's explicitly because of the way that the Stormfather contains the Cognitive Shadow of a person who once held the Shard. That is not by any means a normal circumstance.
tmnsquirtle Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 @Calderis So if nothing would change for the KR, and the spren would continue to exist as previously (like the mists or atium, as Sanderson implies), what WOULD change? Just the ability of one person (the vessel) to direct the entire body of the power all at once?
Journey Before Pancakes Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: With his power to forge Spiritual bonds, it seems likely to me that the shed will be restored. Dang, I'm excited to see how well furnished this shed will be. 1
tmnsquirtle Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said: Dang, I'm excited to see how well furnished this shed will be. What does shed mean?
+Child of Hodor Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 55 minutes ago, Calderis said: I didn't say the full power, I said a significant portion, and obviously less than TLR used with the well. Things would have happened very differently otherwise. And it's not holding a piece of Honor's power that is causing this. Splintering a Shard is not not going to let anyone using or connected to a Splinter do what Dalinar has. That's explicitly because of the way that the Stormfather contains the Cognitive Shadow of a person who once held the Shard. That is not by any means a normal circumstance. What do you think Dalinar is doing mechanically when he Ascends? Is he reforging spiritual bonds to more of the shard than is in the Stormfather, but not all of it?
Calderis he/him Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: What do you think Dalinar is doing mechanically when he Ascends? Is he reforging spiritual bonds to more of the shard than is in the Stormfather, but not all of it? I think he accomplished temporarily what will need to be done permanently. Forging internal bonds between the Splintered investiture. Maybe a fraction, maybe the whole thing. Either way he didn't "Ascend" to the threshold we've seen previously. There was no reshaping the world or moving planets. 1
Journey Before Pancakes Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 35 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said: What does shed mean? A shed is a small building for storage. I assume he meant shard, I was just making a joke about the typo.
tmnsquirtle Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said: A shed is a small building for storage. I assume he meant shard, I was just making a joke about the typo. I've never seen that word before in my life. /s Seriously, though, I'm always afraid that I'm missing some weird cosmere jargon. Thanks for clarifying.
Leyrann Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 8 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said: I've never seen that word before in my life. /s Seriously, though, I'm always afraid that I'm missing some weird cosmere jargon. Thanks for clarifying. Not weird Cosmere jargon, but it is a weird science unit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_(unit)
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 11 hours ago, Calderis said: I think he accomplished temporarily what will need to be done permanently. Forging internal bonds between the Splintered investiture. Maybe a fraction, maybe the whole thing. Either way he didn't "Ascend" to the threshold we've seen previously. There was no reshaping the world or moving planets. I think he did Ascend enough to be considered a Sliver though.
Ulthwithian Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Honestly, given Odium's 'We killed you' line, Unity was likely the Intent, if such can be said, of Adonalsium. Which makes some sense, given that Adonalsium was killed by breaking up, and that is how the other Shards are also killed. If indeed Unity was Adonalsium's Intent, Honor may be telling Dalinar to try to recreate Adonalsium. 'Unite them' -- the nations of Roshar against Odium. 'Unite them' -- the Knights Radiant against the Voidbringers. 'Unite them' -- the Shards back into Adonalsium. This would lead to the theory that Honor has (had?), with benefit of hindsight, decided that the Splintering of Adonalsium was a mistake and it needs to be undone. (This is my personal theory as to what Hoid is up to, as he seems to be collecting Investiture from the different Shards.)
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