Windrunner VS Steel Inquisitor

[TheArcanist]

Except Inquisitors, barring those made from Mistborn, wouldn't have had access to Bendalloy or Cadmium, and they wouldn't have known about it as all the Inquisitors except Marsh were killed right before the Final Ascension.

[Cstryon]

I wonder if Sazed would have given Marsh Larasium at some point. Making him a more useful agent of Harmony.

I don't think Sazed would have to worry about him being too powerful.., if he needed to he could take control of Marsh.

It would be useful to have Marsh being full Mistborn, if there was certain heroes needing to be trained by the boogy man.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Cstryon

[TheArcanist]

I think he'd have to wait for the cycle of Preservation's Body to fill the Well of Ascension in order to synthesize physical Lerasium. That being said, Sazed also made Spook a full Mistborn and no longer a Tin Savant with remarkable ease. So who knows- maybe he made Marsh a Lerasium Mistborn, but I think it's more likely he just left Marsh with whatever Spikes he already had.

[Renegade]

Just wanted to point out that (as of now) Brandon's title is Knights Radiant, and Peter's title is Steel Inquisitor...

 

I'm starting to get worried.

[skizm]

@TheArcanist -- Inquisitors could have access to bendalloy via an atium spike which can steal any allomantic, feruchemical, or human ability. With enough atium spikes an inquisitor could be all powerful. And if the inquisitor was made from a mistborn... game, set, and match. Chain some bendalloy bubbles together and the inquisitor could be behind the windrunner stabbing him in the nape of his neck before he flinches.

 

Although for fun I think I would try and break the windrunner via Swimmingly's plan.

[Swimmingly]

Wow, I just realised how powerful bendalloy and cadmium are when burned together. You can trap your enemies in a shell of slow time around you while being unaffected yourself. Even better, because it's a mechanical effect arising from the overlap of the bubbles, two Mistings standing next to eachother have the same effect. Wayne and Marasi, for example? With Wax in the mix, they could slow, detect, and repel any bullet, and make close-range attacks prohibitively dangerous for any attackers.

[CWS]

In most of the mistborn vs someone fight, it seems like its either assumed that the mistborn would only know the metals at the time of the final empire, or that certain combos aren't as powerful as they seem...

 

Feruchemy and Hemalurgy aside, atium + bendalloy + chromium alone seems like a pretty potent way of ending a fight against someone with investiture...  IF chromium wipes target investiture and not just allomantic metals...  if not theres still a lot of unanswered questions on how compounding some stuff works, especially the whole compounding to increase allomantic effects, instead of just compounding to increase feruchemical effects...

 

Too much unknown for me to hazard a guess if we go with a level 5 windrunner vs a decked out SI with complete knowledge of the metal magic systems + compounding, but if I was forced I'd go with the strongest possible mist/feru/hema metalborn over a level 5 windrunner, just on the basis of seeing the future via atium being a pretty absurd power...   scadrial's magic is just so cool with all the combinations, I'll bet it gets silly by the third trilogy.

[Pathfinder]

In most of the mistborn vs someone fight, it seems like its either assumed that the mistborn would only know the metals at the time of the final empire, or that certain combos aren't as powerful as they seem...

 

Feruchemy and Hemalurgy aside, atium + bendalloy + chromium alone seems like a pretty potent way of ending a fight against someone with investiture...  IF chromium wipes target investiture and not just allomantic metals...  if not theres still a lot of unanswered questions on how compounding some stuff works, especially the whole compounding to increase allomantic effects, instead of just compounding to increase feruchemical effects...

 

Too much unknown for me to hazard a guess if we go with a level 5 windrunner vs a decked out SI with complete knowledge of the metal magic systems + compounding, but if I was forced I'd go with the strongest possible mist/feru/hema metalborn over a level 5 windrunner, just on the basis of seeing the future via atium being a pretty absurd power...   scadrial's magic is just so cool with all the combinations, I'll bet it gets silly by the third trilogy.

I do have Words of Brandon from a signing where I asked him if we would see other compounders in later books and he did say yes. That he wanted to fully explore the magic system. So soon! 

[Cstryon]

Yay! Compound electrum like a BAMF.... Complete stimulant psychosis!

[CWS]

I'm not quite clear on how nicrosil freuchemy would really work but yet I'm most intrigued by the prospect of a double nicrosil compounder...

[PorridgeBrick]

I'm not quite clear on how nicrosil freuchemy would really work but yet I'm most intrigued by the prospect of a double nicrosil compounder...

 

But what do you do with all that Investiture? In the MAG, Nicrosil Investiture is used to fuel other magics– Allomancy, other Feruchemical metals, etc. Without any other magic systems, all a Nicrosil Compounder has to fuel is Allomantic nicrosil, which shouldn't really have any need for extra power– it's pretty much an on-off metal. You might get some effects from just passively holding that Investiture, but you can't actually use it.

[Swimmingly]

Unless, say, you were given a handy hemalurgic spikological alteration.

[Cstryon]

I wonder.... Soulbearer is just that, no other powers, someone tries to use a lashing and stick him to the wall... So he starts storing. Suddenly the

lash doesn't work, and the Soulbearer now has.... Stored lashings? And then, he taps it, and is able to lash? Until the store is gone.

[Swimmingly]

I think that, perhaps, instead he would be Lashed in the direction that the original Lashing lashed him in. So you could store being-lashed-to-the-sky, giving you the ability to flip upside down for a limited time.

[PorridgeBrick]

From the little bit we get in the MAG, Feruchemical nicrosil seems to be untyped. If they store Allomantic iron Investiture, they can use that same Investiture to fuel Feruchemical gold, or Allomantic steel, or anything. But they can't just tap and get Allomantic iron– they have to have some Allomantic iron Investiture there already for their Feruchemical nicrosil to fuel. So in you example, the Soulbearer would just get generic Stormlight, unable to use Lashings without a Nahel Bond.

[ninch]

Lashing the inquisitor doesn't do much, Feruchemical iron fixes any weight problems. Plus if shard blade and plate are too invested, I'd argue if this inquisitor had so many spikes, he'd be too invested to lash. Compound iron, toss a few coins, Feruchemical zinc, Feruchemical steel, drop all the weight into a mind, pull on a coin, he's flying. Any metal on this windrunner or even the coins he likely ignores they clink off his plate is purchase too pull straight at the windrunner, while in motion, compound the iron again, burning pewter (probably won't need Feruchemical pewter) and this windrunner just got smashed by a very massive object flying at very high speed. If the inquisitor had enough metal arts, and was creative enough, his powers become rediculous.

just got to make a machine do this over and over, use planets or stars as an anchor point and seems like a good way to solve the problem of having weight stop you from reaching the speed of light

[jag519]

Yeah, normal Inquisitor would lose, but it was established in the beginning it would be a Marsh level inquisitor. Being essentially twinawesome, you could pretty much beat anyone. 

 

As established above, compounding speed makes you be able to kill people before they could react, compounding weight lets you push with tons of lbs behind you, and if you land on someone putting tons of weight on someone. Compounding pewter lets you explode people with hits, compounding mental speed lets you do all of this with near atium skills, Compounding gold lets you heal as long as it's not a sharblade to a spine (arguable, b/c it might actually heal while being cut, healing your soul before it goes all the way through), and so on.

[TheArcanist]

In any case, if this is actually going to get anywhere, we need to go by process of elimination and figure out roughly what spikes Marsh has, seeing as he's quite probably the most powerful Steel Inquisitor ever created. So I'll refer again to my incomplete list from the previous page.

 

 

- Eye Spikes: One of these is Allomantic Steel, the other Allomantic Iron. The Inquisitor, needing to see, quickly become a Savant in both.

 

- Sternum: A Steel spike doubling the base strength in Allomantic Steel.

 

- Linchpin Spike: This is unconfirmed as far as I know, but the most logical place I could find for the Pewter spike that granted the Inquisitors Feruchemical Gold healing.

 

- Rib Spikes: Four Bronze Spikes, one Iron Spike. The Bronze Spikes granted Allomantic Brass, Allomantic Zinc, Allomantic Copper, and a second dosage of Allomantic Bronze. The Iron Spike probably granted Allomantic Pewter, because what would an Inquisitor need with Tin? Maybe they changed it up, Inquisitor to Inquisitor, I don't know.

 

- Armbands: Both armbands are Atium, one Allomantic and the other Feruchemical. It's how Marsh has survived this long, by compounding like Rashek was.

 

- Heart Spike: A Pewter Spike which grants Feruchemical Steel. Scenes in Hero of Ages seem to imply that this was standard for most, if not all, Inquisitors once Ruin had been freed.

 

- Unknown Placement: An Aluminum Spike of unknown placement granting Allomantic Duralumin. This is highly theoretical, as it has not been outright confirmed, but Marsh did act- and I think it mentioned -as though he was capable of using Allomantic Duralumin.

 

As Marsh was said to have "upwards of twenty spikes", the lowest limit we can give him is twenty-one Spikes, but as that seems a little too close to twenty to identify as "upwards of twenty" at a bit of a distance, I'd judge it's closer to twenty-four Spikes as a minimum. Above I have outlined thirteen spikes, of which twelve we can say with near-certainty are accurate. That means that there are still eleven spikes Marsh has which are unaccounted for, and which grant him more powers. Process of elimination given what Marsh can do should show us what other powers he has, which will give us a fairly accurate yardstick by which to measure his abilities against Kaladin's.

[Cstryon]

Alright. So we know... Mostly, he's probably got all allomancy.

Steel, Iron, Tin (I think), pewter (Inquisitors are all rediculously strong so this has got to be a given.), he was pulling on Marasi's curiosity, and very bluntly, suppressed her fear, so both zinc and brass, bronze (He was a seeker so he already had this) could have been made stronger, since most Inquisitors could peirce copper clouds.

Could go without copper I guess. Ruin wouldn't have needed him to hide... I'm guessing before ruin, Inquisitors didn't have much use for hiding...

So at least seven, maybe all the basics, with at least bronze doubled up, but I couldn't find reasons why Inquisitors wouldn't double up on a few of those.

Atium we know, fairly sure of duralumin but like Arcanist I can't quite remember where that's confirmed.

And the new metals that Vin and Elend find... Hmmm.

Probably not electrum, doubtful that he has malatium. Maybe gold, but that's only useful if he had Feruchemical gold.

So 7 basics, no ccopper, Atium, and gold I'd say for sure.

Feruchemy.

Gold, pewter, steel, zinc, Atium for sure? Those all seem not only practical, but Atium for sure, and gold I see very likely. I seem to remember Inquisitors healing like crazy, which would explain why pulling the linchpin, or chopping off their heads was how you killed them. So now saying that, I have to say gold for sure.

I don't remember him sleeping. Now I know that's not really a needed detail for the story, but it could be evidence that he has bronze for this.

Furthermore.

Now, I doubt he'd have bendalloy or cadmium (cadmium is the slow bubble right?).

So that's what I think he's got, and most likely there is evidence for all of it, if I didn't already give it.

Now if I missed anything, please help me here, I worked 1830 to 0730 and it's almost noon and I haven't slept.

[TheArcanist]

If I remember correctly, I think at one point in Hero of Ages Marsh shows that he can tap and store Feruchemical Pewter. He also would probably have his Allomantic Iron doubled up to match the strength of his Allomantic Steel. I doubt Marsh would have Feruchemical Zinc- that sort of power would lessen Ruin or the Lord Ruler's control over him, so I doubt any member of the Inquisitors would have possessed a Spike like that.

 

Logically, Feruchemical Iron and Feruchemical Bronze would be extremely useful for an Inquisitor, especially after Marsh saw Sazed in action- it would be reasonable for Ruin to push him to acquire that sort of power.

 

- Rib Spike (?): A hypothetical Steel Spike granting a second does of Allomantic Iron to increase the base strength of Marsh's pulls.

 

- Unknown Placement: A Pewter Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Iron. Possibly in the ribs.

 

- Unknown Placement: A Pewter Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Pewter

 

- Unknown Placement: A Brass Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Bronze.

 

This now brings Marsh up to seventeen Spikes of varying placement and powers, which means that there're roughly seven- at minimum -Spikes that I have left unaccounted for. I'm perfectly open to suggestions about what those Spikes may be used for.

[Cstryon]

So I don't know how to do spoiler tags, and am on my cell phone so it's hard to edit your whole post for just one section. Would you mind putting the list of spikes you've got including the last 4?

[TheArcanist]

Absolutely.

 

 

- Eye Spikes: One of these is Allomantic Steel, the other Allomantic Iron. The Inquisitor, needing to see, quickly become a Savant in both.

 

- Sternum: A Steel spike doubling the base strength in Allomantic Steel.

 

- Linchpin Spike: This is unconfirmed as far as I know, but the most logical place I could find for the Pewter spike that granted the Inquisitors Feruchemical Gold healing.

 

- Rib Spikes: Four Bronze Spikes, one Iron Spike. The Bronze Spikes granted Allomantic Brass, Allomantic Zinc, Allomantic Copper, and a second dosage of Allomantic Bronze. The Iron Spike probably granted Allomantic Pewter, because what would an Inquisitor need with Tin? Maybe they changed it up, Inquisitor to Inquisitor, I don't know.

 

- Rib Spike (?): A hypothetical Steel Spike granting a second does of Allomantic Iron to increase the base strength of Marsh's pulls to balance it out in comparison to his Allomantic Steel.

 

- Armbands: Both armbands are Atium, one Allomantic and the other Feruchemical. It's how Marsh has survived this long, by compounding like Rashek was.

 

- Heart Spike: A Pewter Spike which grants Feruchemical Steel. Scenes in Hero of Ages seem to imply that this was standard for most, if not all, Inquisitors once Ruin had been freed.

 

- Unknown Placement: An Aluminum Spike of unknown placement granting Allomantic Duralumin. This is highly theoretical, as it has not been outright confirmed, but Marsh did act- and I think it mentioned -as though he was capable of using Allomantic Duralumin.

 

 

- Unknown Placement: A Pewter Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Iron. Possibly in the ribs. This appears to have become standard for Inquisitors following Ruin's release and the massacre of the Keepers.

 

- Unknown Placement: A Pewter Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Pewter. Certain scenes in Hero of Ages, Marsh's fight with Elend in particular, seem to indicate that he had one.

 

- Unknown Placement: A Brass Spike of unknown placement to give Marsh Feruchemical Bronze. Inferred due to the fact that when Marsh is active during the events of Hero of Ages he seems to not sleep at all, but Inquisitors in general need to rest frequently to recharge their metalminds.

 

I added some other notes to my previous points on the list, just some musings about the logic behind it. The count is now seventeen Spikes, leaving seven Spikes of unknown purpose to be determined to give Marsh his minimum power set.

[PorridgeBrick]

Some possibilities for the remainder.

• Feruchemical tin. Enhanced hearing and smell is pretty helpful, particularly when your sight is rather impaired in some respects.

• Another Allomantic pewter. Physical strength is nice.

• Maybe some of the human, non-allomantic/feruchemical attributes like strength? Of course, they do tend to rather distort their bearers, as seen in koloss.

• Allomantic gold, for compounding.

• Maybe double up on Allomantic zinc or Allomantic brass?

[Shaggai]

From the little bit we get in the MAG, Feruchemical nicrosil seems to be untyped. If they store Allomantic iron Investiture, they can use that same Investiture to fuel Feruchemical gold, or Allomantic steel, or anything. But they can't just tap and get Allomantic iron– they have to have some Allomantic iron Investiture there already for their Feruchemical nicrosil to fuel. So in you example, the Soulbearer would just get generic Stormlight, unable to use Lashings without a Nahel Bond.

I suspect that that was simplified a bit to balance the game. Everything else we see with Feruchemy - Feruchemical tin and Feruchemical copper, for example, and Feruchemical bendalloy to a lesser degree - requires the storage of specific attributes. Feruchemical nicrosil is likely the same.

[Cstryon]

Good point about the Allomantic zinc and Allomantic brass. His rather blunt use of soothing, might not have been obviously using it, but rather using something that is already overpowered.
Thanks for the list Arcanist. I will be doing some research on these and see if I can figure out for sure what he showed us he can do.

If anyone else is researching this, some things I've been thinking. Since he has to gain the spike by stealing, being freed from Ruin, and being Harmony's agent, he has likely not gained anything new. Unless, Sazed gave him permission, or gave him some pre-made spikes.
Also, he felt so guilty, that likely his guilt was strong enough to break Ruin's control, allowing him to free Vin. But that same guilt might keep him from killing others to get powers.

There was a bunch of spikes left over. All those Inquisitors that Vin killed. Not long after, Sazed took up the shards, and I wouldn't doubt it if he grabbed all the left over spikes.
I'm going to start a new thread in the Mistborn forums about Marsh's powers, since this thread really is supposed to be a debate, between two probably overpowered characters from the Cosmere. 

Here's the thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8829-marshs-powers-and-the-hemalurgy-use/

Edited May 27, 2014 by Cstryon