kraefzke Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 I have a suspicion, too weak to be called a theory, but maybe interesting nonetheless: Odium has now a deal with a Bondsmith that if his champion wins, he’ll be free to kill and destroy on Roshar as he wishes and, more importantly, leave the system. Though I suppose it’s possible that the deal was cancelled by Dalinar not accepting to become Odium’s champion, I think that it is still in place and Odium will just have to appoint someone else (Moash seeming a likely but not the only candidate). However, I think that this is more of a backup plan to Odium, since I can see two other potential ways for him to reach his goal: Firstly, Honor implied that such an agreement would be binding to Odium, but does that mean the current Desolation will be put on halt? Probably not: I cannot see Odium now holding back his troops and not trying to kill any potential human champions on the battlefield or through assassination by the hand of his minions. Therefore, I think the plan is now to delay the battle of champions as long as possible in order to weaken human resistance as much as possible and erase a large number of possible champions. And if there is nobody left, Odium’s champion wins by default anyway. Secondly, while a don’t think a Bondsmith in his right mind would go and simply release Odium, I think this might very well be in the power of somebody holding Ishar’s Honorblade. Also, since the unique abilities of each Radiant order result from the interaction of their surges, wouldn’t somebody holding the Honorblades of both Jezrien and Taln essentially become a Windrunner, Stoneward AND Bondsmith because one Blade would grant Adhesion and the other Tension? And we totally know where Jezrien’s Blade is and we totally don’t know about Taln’s. So, securing either Ishar’s or Taln’s Honorblade could result in an instant win for Odium. (Also, do we have confirmation by now that Nale was the one who went back for his Honorblade or could it have been Ishar? I think he might have been aware of the dangers of an unbonded Bondsmith and therefore come back for his Blade. And do we know if one of the remaining Honorblades really has vanished from Shinovar? I had previously assumed that that was just a lie by Taravangian, but from his PoV in OB, Szeth still believes it and I don't think Brandon would have mentioned that without reason. So Ishar could have gotten it back from Shinovar, because even in his maddened state he was aware of said dangers; or somebody else could have taken it, hopefully nobody from Odium's camp.) I don't think this second option would work through Whatshisname (the Unmade supposedly granting access to all the surges), because I think Odium's implication that Amaram might be strong enough to control it was just a way to get Amaram to willingly swallow that stone. I think nobody survives that "bond" long enough to gain the necessary amount of control over his/her powers.
Bort he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 Pretty sure the only Honorblades out in the world are Taln's, Jezrien's, and Nale's. Szeth believes Taravangian because he is Truthless, taught not to ask questions, but to accept his Master's word. Also, he confirms in OB that Nale has his Honorblade. I forget the exact words, but it was something about recognising the Blade from depictions of it in Shinovar, or something along these lines. Pretty sure it was OB, although it is possible that is was Edgedancer.
ALAKA Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 I'm not sure that Honorblades make someone into a member of "Order X"- I'd suspect they just give powers. Hence there's no way for anyone to become a Bondsmith without binding the appropriate spren. If Odium could get someone to bond the Nightwatcher/"The Sibling" he might get a deal to leave. TBH it's not very clear why Bondsmiths are entitled to negotiate for all Roshar, so maybe it is just the powers... Any thoughts? PS "Odium has options" made me think of stock trading
kraefzke Posted January 18, 2018 Author Posted January 18, 2018 42 minutes ago, Bort said: Pretty sure the only Honorblades out in the world are Taln's, Jezrien's, and Nale's. Szeth believes Taravangian because he is Truthless, taught not to ask questions, but to accept his Master's word. Also, he confirms in OB that Nale has his Honorblade. I forget the exact words, but it was something about recognising the Blade from depictions of it in Shinovar, or something along these lines. Pretty sure it was OB, although it is possible that is was Edgedancer. My line of thought was that he is Truthless no longer and he isn't stupid either (mad, but not stupid). He should have started asking questions. So the fact that he still believes (as shown in OB), might just be a way of Brandon telling us that there is more to this. In that case, an unknown fourth Honorblade might be out there. Thanks for that bit about Szeth recognizing Nale's Blade. I totally missed that. If Szeth indeed is wrong in believing about the vanished Shinovar-Honorblade, you are obviously right about whose three Honorblades are out there. 13 minutes ago, ALAKA said: I'm not sure that Honorblades make someone into a member of "Order X"- I'd suspect they just give powers. Hence there's no way for anyone to become a Bondsmith without binding the appropriate spren. If Odium could get someone to bond the Nightwatcher/"The Sibling" he might get a deal to leave. TBH it's not very clear why Bondsmiths are entitled to negotiate for all Roshar, so maybe it is just the powers... Any thoughts? PS "Odium has options" made me think of stock trading No, Honorblades obviously don't make you a member of a Radiant order. I didn't want to imply that, sorry for using the word "become", what I meant is "receive the powers of". I was under the impression that what entitles the Bondsmiths to make such deals it definitely is "just the powers". But could be wrong.
Storms! he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) The orders of KR were made by the spren to imitate the power of the Honorblades. The Oathpact was originally made by Ishar with his Bondsmith blade, so it absolutely could be used in place of an actual Bondsmith. That's why those blades are so dangerous, you don't need a bond. Any idiot can pick one up and gain the powers without any of the checks the spren provide Edited January 18, 2018 by Storms! spelling
ALAKA Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 Just now, kraefzke said: I was under the impression that what entitles the Bondsmiths to make such deals it definitely is "just the powers". But could be wrong. Could be, but why would the ability to stick things together allow one to make world-affecting deals? Don't forget, Dalinar only had one power when he made the deal. (Unless he had the other power in potentia) It would make more sense for it to be to do with their connection to Roshar through their spren, although you're right that we don't know.
Storms! he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 Quote why would the ability to stick things together allow one to make world-affecting deals? Because Honor is the power of binding oaths. Using the power of the god of binding oaths, you can bind even another god
Bort he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, kraefzke said: My line of thought was that he is Truthless no longer and he isn't stupid either (mad, but not stupid). He should have started asking questions. So the fact that he still believes (as shown in OB), might just be a way of Brandon telling us that there is more to this. In that case, an unknown fourth Honorblade might be out there. Thanks for that bit about Szeth recognizing Nale's Blade. I totally missed that. If Szeth indeed is wrong in believing about the vanished Shinovar-Honorblade, you are obviously right about whose three Honorblades are out there. No problem I am pretty sure that Szeth is wrong about the other Honorblade. I'm sure that Taravangian told him one had been stolen to deflect from there being a Radiant on the field - "It cannot be a Radiant. It must - yes, there was another Honorblade stolen from Shinover. Kholin must have it." Or something like that. I'm pretty sure he was just making it up, although we do not have confirmation of that.
Storms! he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 In one of the Szeth chapters, we see Nale with two distinctly different Blades. I seriously doubt he has two spren bonds, and we know that people with the bond can't use dead blades (remember the screaming), so I think we can safely assume that one is his Honorblade The "missing blade" from Shinovar is probably the one Nale took. Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one
kraefzke Posted January 18, 2018 Author Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Storms! said: In one of the Szeth chapters, we see Nale with two distinctly different Blades. I seriously doubt he has two spren bonds, and we know that people with the bond can't use dead blades (remember the screaming), so I think we can safely assume that one is his Honorblade The "missing blade" from Shinovar is probably the one Nale took. Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one I'm pretty sure that Nale's Blade never was in Shinovar, because he is supposedly the Herald to have com back for it after abandoning the Oathpact. Edit: I got that wrong. Apparently the Shin had care for all 9 Honorblades (the 10th, Taln‘s, remaining wherever Honorblades go while the Heralds burn in Damnation). Nale‘s vanished long ago, which is why Szeth recognizes it only from a depiction (he would recognize the other eight from having trained with them). Edited January 18, 2018 by kraefzke
Storms! he/him Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 Quote I'm pretty sure that Nale's Blade never was in Shinovar, because he is supposedly the Herald to have com back for it after abandoning the Oathpact. I'm not convinced this is true. I'm pretty sure Szeth said something along the lines of the Shin used to have it up until a couple hundred years ago. He says that he was trained with all the blades but Taln's and Nale's because Nale's was gone by the time he was born. "Gone" (or whatever exact word he used) implies that it was there at one point, but not anymore. If anyone has some quotes proving me wrong though, please share!
RShara she/her Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Bort said: No problem I am pretty sure that Szeth is wrong about the other Honorblade. I'm sure that Taravangian told him one had been stolen to deflect from there being a Radiant on the field - "It cannot be a Radiant. It must - yes, there was another Honorblade stolen from Shinover. Kholin must have it." Or something like that. I'm pretty sure he was just making it up, although we do not have confirmation of that. Yeah I'm pretty sure T is lying to Szeth to calm him. The Shin had 9 Honorblades. At some point, Nale stole his back. Then Szeth was given the Windrunner blade. So the Shin have 7, currently.
kraefzke Posted January 18, 2018 Author Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Yeah, I think you all are right and I simply forgot how to count to ten. Probably should ask Lift how she does it. Anyways, so Ishar‘s Honorblade is still in Shinovar. Doesn’t change the fact that Odium-Camp has Jezrien‘s Blade and we don’t have any Idea where Taln‘s is, right? And those two Blades in combination grant four Surges, two of which happen to be the combination gained by becoming a Bondsmith or holding Ishar‘s Blade. We don’t know if gaining the Bondsmith Surges in this manner would grant all the Bondsmith abilities, but I wonder... Edited January 18, 2018 by kraefzke 2
Dreamstorm Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, RShara said: The Shin had 9 Honorblades. At some point, Nale stole his back. Then Szeth was given the Windrunner blade. So the Shin have 7, currently. Someone should edit Coppermind, because it says one of the Progression blades (Vedel's or Pailiah's) is missing per what Taravangian told Szeth, when I don't believe there is any other basis for this. 2
Stormlightning she/her Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, kraefzke said: Yeah, I think you all are right and I simply forgot how to count to ten. Probably should ask Lift how she does it. Anyways, so Ishar‘s Honorblade is still in Shinovar. Doesn’t change the fact that Odium-Camp has Jezrien‘s Blade and we don’t have any Idea where Taln‘s is, right? And those two Blades in combination grant four Surges, two of which happen to be the combination gained by becoming a Bondsmith or holding Ishar‘s Blade. We don’t know if gaining the Bondsmith Surges in this manner would grant all the Bondsmith abilities, but I wonder... I've always kind of been under the impression that an Ishar-honorblade-wielding non-Radiant wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a true Bondsmith. We didn't see a whole lot of a power differential between Szeth as a non-Radiant and Kaladin as a true Windrunner, but Kaladin was still very early in his oaths at the time. I'm not sure if there's WoB to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that even without the Stormlight-consuming factor, a full Windrunner would be stronger than an honorblade-wielding one. Basically what I'm getting at is that I don't think a false bondsmith would have the power to get Odium out of the agreement. Whether because they simply wouldn't be as powerful as Dalinar, or because it seems wrong to me to have someone completely unbound by oaths controlling other major oaths, I don't think just gaining Ishar's blade could free Odium from the deal. Back when Tanavast was alive and kicking, I don't think Dalinar's role as "the man holding the remnants of Honor's name and power" existed in the same way that it does now, if it existed at all. Edited January 19, 2018 by Stormlightning 1
Billahollic Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 11 hours ago, Stormlightning said: I've always kind of been under the impression that an Ishar-honorblade-wielding non-Radiant wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a true Bondsmith. We didn't see a whole lot of a power differential between Szeth as a non-Radiant and Kaladin as a true Windrunner, but Kaladin was still very early in his oaths at the time. I'm not sure if there's WoB to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that even without the Stormlight-consuming factor, a full Windrunner would be stronger than an honorblade-wielding one. Basically what I'm getting at is that I don't think a false bondsmith would have the power to get Odium out of the agreement. Whether because they simply wouldn't be as powerful as Dalinar, or because it seems wrong to me to have someone completely unbound by oaths controlling other major oaths, I don't think just gaining Ishar's blade could free Odium from the deal. Back when Tanavast was alive and kicking, I don't think Dalinar's role as "the man holding the remnants of Honor's name and power" existed in the same way that it does now, if it existed at all. OK so I have a question about this. If a person holding Ishar's honor blade is a false bondsmith due to the absence of a nahel bond, then was Ishar a false bondsmith? I can't remember for sure if Ishar was actually involved in the creation of the oathpact, but if he was then it seems that his blade is what gave him the power to do so and following that line of reasoning, whoever holds his blade should be able to undo it? Am I missing something?
Stormlightning she/her Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Billahollic said: OK so I have a question about this. If a person holding Ishar's honor blade is a false bondsmith due to the absence of a nahel bond, then was Ishar a false bondsmith? I can't remember for sure if Ishar was actually involved in the creation of the oathpact, but if he was then it seems that his blade is what gave him the power to do so and following that line of reasoning, whoever holds his blade should be able to undo it? Am I missing something? Well Ishar was also a cognitive shadow that held some of Honor's power. I tend to think that the Herald's themselves had extra power beyond their Blades because of their direct connection to Honor. Wish I had a WoB on it, but that's how it's always worked in my head. Edited January 19, 2018 by Stormlightning 2
+Harrycrapper Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 Quote 6 minutes ago, Stormlightning said: Well Ishar was also a cognitive shadow that held some of Honor's power. I tend to think that the Herald's themselves had extra power beyond their Blades because of their direct connection to Honor. Wish I had a WoB on it, but that's how it's always worked in my head. All of the Heralds were bonded in some way to Honor as well, that's how they got their Stormlight. There was no Stormfather as we know it back then. Ishar's blade would give you the Surges of a Bondsmith, but not the special traits that come with bonding one of the large Spren.
digitalbusker he/him Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 Did Ishar need any particular powerset to create the Oathpact? Wouldn't writing it up and getting Odium and Honor to agree to it be binding, based on what we know now of Shardic deals?
Palindrome Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 7 hours ago, digitalbusker said: Did Ishar need any particular powerset to create the Oathpact? Wouldn't writing it up and getting Odium and Honor to agree to it be binding, based on what we know now of Shardic deals? I think the key is getting both to agree to it. Otherwise Odium could trick any poor fool into making a deal. Now that Honor is dead only Bondsmiths can make deals with Odium as they are Honors representatives.
RShara she/her Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 7 hours ago, digitalbusker said: Did Ishar need any particular powerset to create the Oathpact? Wouldn't writing it up and getting Odium and Honor to agree to it be binding, based on what we know now of Shardic deals? The Oathpact was between the Heralds and Honor. Odium didn't have anything to do with it. So whatever's keeping Odium in the Greater Roshar system, it's not the Heralds. 3
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) I don't think anyone holding Ishar's Honorblade could make a binding pact with Odium in humanity's name. I don't even think the other 2 bondsmiths (presumably Nightwatcher's and Sibling's) could make a binding pact with Odium. I think the power for those binding agreements rested solely in the hands of the Shards, with Honor been the only one that could agree to this specific pact (of freeing Odium), since he originally made it. Cultivation seems to have helped, but we don't get the impression she was as central as Honor in imprisioning Odium. Or at least not as much in-your-face about it. The only reason why Dalinar could make the pact is that his circumstances are extremely unusual. Honor was shattered, and the biggest piece bonded Dalinar. So Dalinar earned some of the powers, priviliges and responsibilities that would normally be held solely in a Honor's hands. Tanavast made the visions, and gave the idea of entering a duel with Odium, as a hail-mary when all was lost, to the person that would be bonded to the biggest available piece of his power. Then he instructed the Stormfather to find an appropiate recipient to bond when the time came and send the visions to. The only other way I think Odium could make a binding pact with someone representing humanity, is if the Stormfather bonds someone else. Odium doesn't need a bondsmith to agree to anything, he needs Honor's bondsmith. This is all rampant speculation on my part, but it was my first thought when I finished OB . Edited January 20, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard 1
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