[OB]From Jezrien to Ahu

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

I have a question about Ahu...That is, how Jezrien got to be Ahu, crazy drunkard. We're pretty confident all the Heralds have went crazy in different ways, just as a side-effect of being alive for that long/being tortured that much. Is Jezrien so much worse(presumably) than the other Heralds because of some specific event(UnMade battle/Shard interaction, etc) that snapped his sanity for good? Or is it more likely that he gave up his sanity faster/harder relative to the other Heralds because of an accumulation of different mental stresses that he would take harder given his likely personality. Which is to say, I think we can imagine how he would deal with his decisions pretty accurately just by imagining how Kaladin(a character we know well and is a seemingly fellow paragon of all things Windrunner) would take them. And that makes me think that while Taln may have been the Herald who never broke,  Jezrien was probably 2nd place in that department, if he's anything like Kal. And I also imagine that the guilt of abandoning Taln would hit Jezrien the hardest...And as the hundreds of years piled up without Taln breaking, I could see how that guilt would eventually permanently break Jezrien, just as I could see it breaking Kaladin. I suspect it's more of the accumulated torture time and super-mega-guilt that did his mind in, but the more exciting answer would be some sort of UnMade Battle Royale

Edited December 18, 2017 by NotBurtReynolds

[+Child of Hodor]

The Heralds who refused to go back that we know the most about seem to have snapped in ways that relate to the heraldic attributes they are associated with.

Shalash is Herald of Beauty and Art and she goes around destroying art work. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shalash

Nalan is the Herald of Justice and he executes people for stealing and trespassing while ignoring other larger crimes when it suits him. Szeth murdered SO many people, but Nalan saves his life, recruits him as a Skybreaker and gives him a kill-crazy sword. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nale

Ishar's attributes Guiding and Pious. He seemed to have been a respected adviser of Jezrian before they became Heralds. After they became Heralds he told the Radiants that they must swear oaths and dedicate themselves to a greater good. Ishar seemed to be all about advising others and didn't make it all about himself. As Tezim he has declared himself a god-king and has put himself above all others. Ishar also, gave Nalan terrible guidance: he told Nalan to murder potential surge-binders and that the Everstorm didn't bring the Voidbringers back. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar

Batar - Associated with Wisdom and Care. If we believe what Taravingion tells Dalinar she was working as Dova in his secret hospital helping him "care" for patients by killing them to get more death rattles. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Battar

Jezrian was the Herald of Leadership. As expressed throughout Dalinar and Kalidan's arcs leadership means taking responsibility, being pro-active, making tough choices and leading by example. As Ahu, Jezrian doesn't doesn't lead by example, doesn't take responsibility, instead he drinks to forget what he did, and is not at all proactive. He just sits in the same place everyday and drinks.  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Jezrien

These are strangely specific perversions of their attributes to the point where it seems the "getting worse" has some magical component to it. Like, maybe Honor magically enhanced certain qualities he felt were important that these individuals already displayed, but once they turned their back on Honor and their oaths the magic started to curdle and rot. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Child of Hodor

[Leuthie]

I think the madness has to do with the Cognitive Shadow nature of the Heralds and the lack of Honors Investiture to maintain them.  The Heralds that continue to use Stormlight (Nale) lose their sanity at a slower pace.  Taln regains his sanity when Dalinar opens Honors Perpendicularity.  Ash, I think, uses Stormlight to travel around and destroy likenesses, so maintains some sanity.  Jezrien uses little to none.

Not much direct evidence, but narratively, it gives Dalinar the ability to heal the Heralds, which has to happen at some level for them to be in the second set of five as B.S. says they will

[+Child of Hodor]

Taln is clearly made better when he's around stormlight. As you said, in OB he seems more himself when Dalinar is around him. In WoR, when Shallan uses stormlight to adjust her illusion while she's in his cell and he briefly snaps out of muttering the same thing over and over. Shallan didn't have as much stormlight as Dalinar so Taln's resurgence didn't last long. 

I wonder if that's how the Fused seem to never run out of Voidlight, Odium pumps it in direct to them. Venli observed that some constantly float/hover around even when inside. A huge waste of fuel unless running out of fuel is not a concern for them.

[hypatia she/her]

Whereas I think that the aspects of being a CS is one reason for the madness I believe there are more causes 

- They were broken even before they broke the Oathpact

- As in the prelude and again now with Shalash most of the Heralds felt guilty

- The time Taln had lasted - I don't think the others had expected him lasting THAT long, longer than any of them. And with each passing year the guilt was getting worse until perhaps the feeling of self-hatred and effecting the look on their own ideals.

- Not sure but it is possible that the othe Heralds felt the pain of Taln the whole time along over their bond.

[MPHRD]

I think part of the insanity of the heralds is because they cannot sleep. From near the end of Oathbringer. 

Quote

“The ripping sensation finally ended. So abruptly that—for the first time in thousands of years—Ash fell unconscious.”

 

[fifthfinger]

I have a theory about the death of Jezrien.  Earlier in Oathbringer when Shalan is talking to the Sja-anat, she says that they (the Unmade) "were made and then unmade."  And it seems odd that the current set of Heralds are Human and not Parch. The Heralds are basically gods, immortals who seem to wield powers.  So my theory is that the current Unmade were once Heralds, who were originally dawn singers.  Odium's motivation to create new unmade as the current unmade are captured seems to fall in line, and it is very like Sanderson to show us an event that he knows we won't fully comprehend until the next book.  I could also speculate that the vision of Dalinar with nine shadows suggests that at some point in the future he will have captured all nine of the Unmade and may use them against his enemies.  Odium will want to balance this power so making new Unmade or some kind of weapon or soldier. 

(--first post so if I am way off base let me know, I am still a cosmere Noob!)

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

4 hours ago, MPHRD said:

I think part of the insanity of the heralds is because they cannot sleep. From near the end of Oathbringer. 

 

I had assumed that she meant that she hadn't fainted in thousands of years, but you could be right.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

19 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Heralds who refused to go back that we know the most about seem to have snapped in ways that relate to the heraldic attributes they are associated with.

Shalash is Herald of Beauty and Art and she goes around destroying art work. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shalash

Nalan is the Herald of Justice and he executes people for stealing and trespassing while ignoring other larger crimes when it suits him. Szeth murdered SO many people, but Nalan saves his life, recruits him as a Skybreaker and gives him a kill-crazy sword. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nale

Ishar's attributes Guiding and Pious. He seemed to have been a respected adviser of Jezrian before they became Heralds. After they became Heralds he told the Radiants that they must swear oaths and dedicate themselves to a greater good. Ishar seemed to be all about advising others and didn't make it all about himself. As Tezim he has declared himself a god-king and has put himself above all others. Ishar also, gave Nalan terrible guidance: he told Nalan to murder potential surge-binders and that the Everstorm didn't bring the Voidbringers back. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar

Batar - Associated with Wisdom and Care. If we believe what Taravingion tells Dalinar she was working as Dova in his secret hospital helping him "care" for patients by killing them to get more death rattles. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Battar

Jezrian was the Herald of Leadership. As expressed throughout Dalinar and Kalidan's arcs leadership means taking responsibility, being pro-active, making tough choices and leading by example. As Ahu, Jezrian doesn't doesn't lead by example, doesn't take responsibility, instead he drinks to forget what he did, and is not at all proactive. He just sits in the same place everyday and drinks.  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Jezrien

These are strangely specific perversions of their attributes to the point where it seems the "getting worse" has some magical component to it. Like, maybe Honor magically enhanced certain qualities he felt were important that these individuals already displayed, but once they turned their back on Honor and their oaths the magic started to curdle and rot. 

Those are some seriously great connections that I had in no way considered. Thank you!

[hypatia she/her]

@MPHRD

After all they are Cognitive Shadows, I never thought them able or in need of sleeping or fainting.

On one side this would add to their insanity, but what troubles me more are the implications of why this is happening now.

And I would realky like to know if every Herald had felt this "ripping" and had fainted.

Personally I wouldn't bet that the Oathpact is further in place after the first Herald had died.

[Jace21 he/him]

I am not sure whether the Heralds need sleep. Of the cognitive shadows we have seen so far in the Cosmere, some sleep and some dont so its hard to say.

With regards to he OP I think it goes something like this:

1. The 9 Heralds are slowly broken over the course of many desolations.

2. They are so broken they wont return to damnation.

3. They are still good people so despite the fact they aren't going back, they still feel guilty.

4. They each find a way of dealing with the guilt that works for them.

I think the divine atributes are not anything Honour instituted but sre just the primary attributes people saw in the Heralds. So it would make sense that each Heralds reaction is Unique and fits with what people recognise as their divine attributes. EG:

Shalash (Creative, Honest)

Knows herself to have deceived the world and knows she is unworthy of the reverance and worship she receives. So she destroys the art and visible reminders associated with it.

Ishar (Pious, Guiding)

Again is a fraud. He broke an Oath to God, betrayed Taln and misguided the people. So he tries to prevent any negative consequence by working with Nale and rule mankind so that they are ready for when his actions catch up to him.

Jezrien (Protecting, Leading)

Possibly takes it worse as he was the leader of the Heralds and therefore Mankind during desolations. Yet he abandoned  humanity to a future desolation, Taln to millenia of torture and allowed the rest of the heralds to break their oaths too. Tries to drown the guilt and pain.

Nale (Just, Confident)

Seems less effected at first glance. Possibly because of his attributes allowing him to justify walking away, because he reclaimed his blade or another unknown reason. Tries to prevent the desolation whilst continuing to uphold the law but the maximum sentence possible. Projects confidemce but is aware that he is mad amd getting worse.

To me all of the Heralds actions that we know of fit the idea of a guilty conscience filtered through their attributes and made 1000x worse because they were already broken.

Sorry that ended up much longer than anticipated!