[OB] Rosharan Ethnic Groups and Honor's Perpendicularity

[Blackhoof]

I was reading a thread the other day- Regarding the Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant and the topic of the various ethnic groups of Rosharans came up. 

@Heir of the Void wrote this interesting post to cap off the discussion, and it got me thinking. 

On 06/12/2017 at 0:09 PM, Heir of the Void said:

I'd be shocked if that were the case - human evolution in our world has been a fair bit slower, with a few isolated exceptions - and it would also require fairly strong selective pressures that also vary widely between regions. 

The theory that different nations/tribes/warbands/whatevers of humans settled in a series of waves moving out from (presumably) Shinovar would make more sense to me. For example, the arrangement of skin tones makes no sense if you assume it evolved in place. To Wit:

• Skin tone is an adaptation to sunlight intensity - more sunlight requires more melanin to protect the skin, while less sunlight requires less melanin to allow proper synthesis of vitamin D. 
• Accordingly, (natural, native) skin tones on Earth are mostly a gradient darkest near the equator and lighter further away
• Roshar (probably south of the equator, so reverse the Earth expectation) is in fact all over the place. The (light?) tan Alethi are right next to the blue Natan and the Irish-esque Vedens; the Vedens are fairly close to the (dark?) tan Makabaki, with the pale Shin next to them. The pale/blond Iri are immediately north of the Makabaki, with the (brown?) Reshi at the furthest north.

Granted, this could be a result of minor admixture with the Singers inhabiting each of their respective regions, with the Shin representing the original purestrain humans who came from the original world, though that raises other questions, largely related to the lack of obvious Listener traits in the majority of (still-differentiated) Rosharan human nations. The more plausible scenario seems to be that several distinction groups of humans - probably ten groups corresponding to the ten Silver Kingdoms - escaped the original homeworld of Man. Perhaps via transition to the Cognitive Realm, which might offer refuge from a Physical catastrophe. From there, they transitioned to Roshar, set up their own subdivisions of Shinover, and eventually left to divide the entire continent between themselves.

If the Oathgates either predate mankind's arrival or were all created while humans were limited to Shinovar, it could explain the pattern of division, with each tribe claiming one of the Oathgates and the territory beyond after subjugating the Parshmen.

 

I agree with these ideas, broadly. The best way to explain the bizarre spread of human ethnic groups across Roshar in my mind is if they based their expansion on the Oathgates. That represents the ten silver kingdoms and the ten major ethnic-culture groups of Roshar.

Expanding on this- we know Honor had a Perpendicularity, but it was lost when he died. What if Honor's Perpendicularity WAS based roughly at the site of Urithiru? Cultivation's Perpendicularity is in high mountains as well (the Horneater Peaks). The best way to get between worlds is through Shadesmar, so if a large population of humans transported into Shadesmar to escape the destruction of their planet, they could walk or sail to Honor's Perpendicularity and then use it to enter Roshar itself. 

There are several possibilities from here:

1) Urithiru and the Oathgates were already there, and it was inhabited by the Dawnsingers. The humans negotiated with them and were thus granted Shinovar. Over time they grew restless, and used the Shinovar gate to return and conquer Urithiru, and then each group claimed one Oathgate for themselves, conquering the land around it on the other side.

2) As above, but the Shin were the first group. They were satisfied with Shinovar. But, other human groups migrated as well, possibly from even more planets, and each group claimed an Oathgate and the land on the other side.

3) Urithiru and the Oathgates were NOT there, and the refugees were led by land to Shinovar. The Oathgate was built to allow quick transportation between Shinovar and the Perpendicularity, and the ten groups spread out over land to conquer a land each for themselves, constructing Oathgates in turn, and eventually they build Urithiru. 

 

My main contention is that I think Honor's Perpendicularity was originally based where Urithiru is now, and that is why the Oathgates and the tower were built there. This provides a way for all ten kingdoms and ethnic groups to spread out and settle in entirely different regions, while still being linked to a single location through which to plan and coordinate in response to later Desolations.

What do you guys think?

 

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Blackhoof

[aemetha]

5 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

My main contention is that I think Honor's Perpendicularity was originally based where Urithiru is now, and that is why the Oathgates and the tower were built there. This provides a way for all ten kingdoms and ethnic groups to spread out and settle in entirely different regions, while still being linked to a single location through which to plan and coordinate in response to later Desolations.

What do you guys think?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1525

Quote

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

If it moves, it can't be based anywhere in particular. Sorry, it was well thought out anyway.

[Heir of the Void]

Broadly speaking, I still think we're missing important pieces about the initial arrival of humanity on Roshar. All we know from the Steele is that Humans arrived on Roshar, were 'given' Shinovar (which raises several questions about what that entailed), the Spren betrayed the Parshman in favor of Humanity, the Humans conquered Roshar, and then Desolations.

Given both the way Brandon tends to write everything (always another secret) and the nature of the story, I suspect there are several wrinkles in the story that we are not privy to. Namely, all the information we have on the events are from a Singer perspective; it would probably be interesting to see a human account of the time.

5 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

Expanding on this- we know Honor had a Perpendicularity, but it was lost when he died. What if Honor's Perpendicularity WAS based roughly at the site of Urithiru? Cultivation's Perpendicularity is in high mountains as well (the Horneater Peaks). The best way to get between worlds is through Shadesmar, so if a large population of humans transported into Shadesmar to escape the destruction of their planet, they could walk or sail to Honor's Perpendicularity and then use it to enter Roshar itself. 

So, as so aemetha said, Honor's Perpendicularity moves, but the Oathgates allow transit between the Physical and Cognitive Realms; the guardian Spren said Shallan could not transit back to Roshar because that functionality had been locked by a system administrator shorly before the death/splintering of Honor. Granted, this would require that Urithiru, or at least the Oathgates, predates humanity's arrival on Roshar, but this doesn't seem to far-fetched, considering the legends refering the the Dawncities as having been created by the Dawnsingers. There is also the following, from one of the WoK epigraphs:

Quote

Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.

This implies that Urithiru was built much more recently than the arrival of mankind, presumably after the establishment of the Silver Kingdoms and thus after the initial subjugation of the Parshmen. However, it also suggests that there is something special about the location of the Tower - it might be the location of a Shardpool of Honor, or the Honor might be Invested in the location heavily. It seems reasonable to assume that this has something to do with why the Oathgate Hub was constructed there and not somewhere else.

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

If it moves, it can't be based anywhere in particular. Sorry, it was well thought out anyway.

Well, it moves now. It's entirely possible that the location was stable back when Honor was alive.

[Blackhoof]

 

8 hours ago, Heir of the Void said:

Broadly speaking, I still think we're missing important pieces about the initial arrival of humanity on Roshar. All we know from the Steele is that Humans arrived on Roshar, were 'given' Shinovar (which raises several questions about what that entailed), the Spren betrayed the Parshman in favor of Humanity, the Humans conquered Roshar, and then Desolations.

Given both the way Brandon tends to write everything (always another secret) and the nature of the story, I suspect there are several wrinkles in the story that we are not privy to. Namely, all the information we have on the events are from a Singer perspective; it would probably be interesting to see a human account of the time.

Indeed, there are many questions raised by this account. 

Were the Dawnsingers a single unified government, or a collection of primitive tribes? Who had the authority to "grant" Shinovar to the humans? Why did the Spren abandon the Dawnsingers? When did humanity begin favouring Honor over Odium? 

 

8 hours ago, Heir of the Void said:

So, as so aemetha said, Honor's Perpendicularity moves, but the Oathgates allow transit between the Physical and Cognitive Realms; the guardian Spren said Shallan could not transit back to Roshar because that functionality had been locked by a system administrator shorly before the death/splintering of Honor. Granted, this would require that Urithiru, or at least the Oathgates, predates humanity's arrival on Roshar, but this doesn't seem to far-fetched, considering the legends refering the the Dawncities as having been created by the Dawnsingers. There is also the following, from one of the WoK epigraphs:

This implies that Urithiru was built much more recently than the arrival of mankind, presumably after the establishment of the Silver Kingdoms and thus after the initial subjugation of the Parshmen. However, it also suggests that there is something special about the location of the Tower - it might be the location of a Shardpool of Honor, or the Honor might be Invested in the location heavily. It seems reasonable to assume that this has something to do with why the Oathgate Hub was constructed there and not somewhere else.

Well, it moves now. It's entirely possible that the location was stable back when Honor was alive.

 

Wow thanks for that quote- super informative. It tells us either that a) the tower and Oathgates were built by humanity long after they arrived, OR  b ) that the Oathgates predate the tower.

I also concur- it is highly possible that the Perpendicularity is NOW moving, because of Honor's death. It makes no sense in the quote, after all, to be "closer to Honor" if Honor moves. It also makes no sense, to me, to build this massive tower in unreachable mountains if it means nothing. But if the Oathgates, by some magic, are already THERE, or if you can reach it via Shadesmar via the Perpendicularity, it makes perfect sense.

 

 

It is also worth considering this in context of what we know about the Desolations. Considering humans invaded Roshar and established kingdoms, they were clearly superior in numbers or strength to the Parshmen. Odium probably drove this through subterfuge. Then the Parshmen turned to Odium, and gained Voidspren. This turned the tables, and humanity began turning to Honor. This began the First Desolation from the human perspective, and the Heralds were the leaders and kings of the ten kingdoms founded. We know the rest, pretty much.

With each desolation killing 9/10ths of the population, and the Dawnsingers not being enslaved until long afterwards (possibly during the Recreance and the imprisoning of Bar-Ado-Mishram) it seems likely to me that the Silver Kingdoms were small at first, centred around the Oathgates, with the Singers driven to the fringes of society and depleted in their own right.

It took Aharietiam and the enslavement of the Singers to really allow human expansion, and that is how Roshar came to be so densely populated by humanity 4k years later. 

[Yata]

I believe the whole discussion miss a crucial point.

Some Humans arrived by another World and becomed the Voidbringers. But there where already Humans of Roshar prior than that. So the in mixing of those two kinds of Humans could be the cause of Rosharans variability.

Regard the Oathgates, they can't predate the Knight Radiant as the Radiant Spren discovered only After the Heralds' Honorblade to be' able to performe Surgebinding (and the Oathgates use the Trasportation Surge).

One last thought, but It's not really relevant. Some Rosharan's etnicity came from species other than Singers' influence. The Natan are for example mixed with the Aimians and Roshar's weird genetics could explain some of the other funcy stuffs that happened to mankind's diversity. I Talk about the mixing of genetic material rather than the way It happen in real world (Alethi's hair an example of this)

[Blackhoof]

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

I believe the whole discussion miss a crucial point.

Some Humans arrived by another World and becomed the Voidbringers. But there where already Humans of Roshar prior than that. So the in mixing of those two kinds of Humans could be the cause of Rosharans variability.

Ah, is this known? It seemed to me that the arrival of humans as Voidbringers was the first time those Dawnsingers had seen humans at all. Thus, the first humans to arrive in Roshar period were the Voidbringers.

 

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

Regard the Oathgates, they can't predate the Knight Radiant as the Radiant Spren discovered only After the Heralds' Honorblade to be' able to performe Surgebinding (and the Oathgates use the Trasportation Surge).

Hmm very good point. Given that the Gates require Blades, they can't predate the creation of the Honorblades. The Parshendi obviously do not have the ability to use the Gates at all either, they still need a Blade.

Hmm, then again, we have seen that the guardian-spren receive orders from Honor himself. Perhaps Honor ordered the Spren to only open the gate if the opener had a Blade?

Now maybe I am stretching things to sustain my theory  but what if the original Oathgates required no key, or a different key? Then when Honor made the Blades and gave them to the Heralds, he instructed the guardian-spren to only open the gates if the opener had a blade, and added the keyhole to the physical construction.

 

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

One last thought, but It's not really relevant. Some Rosharan's etnicity came from species other than Singers' influence. The Natan are for example mixed with the Aimians and Roshar's weird genetics could explain some of the other funcy stuffs that happened to mankind's diversity. I Talk about the mixing of genetic material rather than the way It happen in real world (Alethi's hair an example of this)

True, and the Herdazians and Horneaters having Parshmen genes. It was suggested that the Alethi could be from Nalthis originally, given the weird hair stuff going on.

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

Ah, is this known? It seemed to me that the arrival of humans as Voidbringers was the first time those Dawnsingers had seen humans at all. Thus, the first humans to arrive in Roshar period were the Voidbringers.

I believe we have WoB about. More specifically WoB that describes the Singers-humans hybrids as something that predate the Shards.

3 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

Hmm very good point. Given that the Gates require Blades, they can't predate the creation of the Honorblades. The Parshendi obviously do not have the ability to use the Gates at all either, they still need a Blade.

Hmm, then again, we have seen that the guardian-spren receive orders from Honor himself. Perhaps Honor ordered the Spren to only open the gate if the opener had a Blade?

Now maybe I am stretching things to sustain my theory  but what if the original Oathgates required no key, or a different key? Then when Honor made the Blades and gave them to the Heralds, he instructed the guardian-spren to only open the gates if the opener had a blade, and added the keyhole to the physical construction.

The problem is mainly that the Spren have to know that they could performe Surges of that magnitude and this is something we were told they discovered only coping the Honorblades. Honor himself was surprised by this.

3 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

True, and the Herdazians and Horneaters having Parshmen genes. It was suggested that the Alethi could be from Nalthis originally, given the weird hair stuff going on.

You are not the First to propose this Nalthis stuff but honestly, I can't see this as possible. The only "weird hair" is something related to a specific bloodline Who inherited fractions of divine Breath.

All the Roshar's etnicity predate Vo and also if there were other Returned before him...how streched is that a whole popolations his Returned-like?

Edit: I checked and the WoB I refered about the hybrids were clarified and It doesn't apply to this context. I Will post It as Soon as I could use a desktop PC

EDIT 2: Here the (not more) relevant WoB:

Quote

HorseCannon

I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

ccstat

Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

 

Footnote: Blightsong's parenthetical statement is mistaken; there is no source claiming that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering.

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Yata