[OB] Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and Sja-anat

[Varenus]

Greetings everyone,

I have a theory that possibly explains what Voidbinding is and how it relates to Surgebinding and Sja-anat. Note that there are still many uncertainties when it comes to this topic, so a lot of this will be speculation on my part. Feel free to agree or disagree as you please. Also, if I am stealing someone's idea from another thread, I am sorry.  

First off, This theory is based largely on the fact that the ten surges are divided into the three realms, as suggested by the Stormfather to Dalinar.

Next, I would like to direct our attention to a few of the recent discussions around Surgebinding and Voidbinding(Spoiler tag for length). All credit to those who participated in these threads for the wonderful ideas they came up with.

Spoiler

 

From these discussions we come to a particularly interesting idea and the one that I think makes the most sense. Renarin, as a corrupted Truthwatcher, has access to one "Voidsurge". The surge of Spiritual Illumination, which lets him see the future. I think that Renarin is using this surge, instead of a resonance, for the following reasons:

1) Resonance as not actually been solidly defined in the canon as of yet and we have never had one of our Knight's even mention it. So, I am hesitant to place too much relevance into them.

2) Nightform is known for its ability to see the future. The fact that Renarin's resonance just happens to be the same as Nightform's ressonance/surge seems extremely unlikely. it's more likely IMO that they simply have the same surge.    

3) No resonance has been as incredibly powerful as storming future sight.

4) Surges can be used without explicitly meaning to use them as well as resonances. Kaladin on bridge runs for example.

So, I am fairly confident that he is using a surge, and the best fit for future sight is Spiritual Illumination for obvious reasons.

So far I haven't really said anything that some else hasn't said before and in a more concise manner, but here is where it really gets crazy.

My hypothesis is that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are actually the same exact system, but with access to different realmatic surges, with one realm spanning both Surgebinding and Voidbinding per surge. And, that Sja-anat has the ability to change a spren's surge's from one realm to another. 

First lets focus on Sja-anat. We have only seen Sja's corruption effect on two spren. The oathgate spren and Glys. I have already given most of my case for Glys above, but I will expand it a little further here. People on the forums have noticed that some order of Knights seem to have an affinity for one of their surges and call it their "Primary surge". I slightly disagree. I think what we are picking up on is the various order's Physical Surges and that the other surges of each order are simply more ambiguous because they happen in different realms. For example, Shallan has physical Illumination(lightweaving) and Cognitive Transformation(her personas). Likewise, I theorize that normal, untainted, Truthwatchers have the surges of Physical Progression and Cognitive Illumination. Sja's corruption has changed Gly's surge of Cognitive Illumination into Spiritual Illumination. leaving Renarin with Physical Progression and Spiritual Illumination. Physical Progression explains Renarin's ability to heal so well. 

To expand the symmetry we can conclude that:

Truthwatchers:  Physical Progression and Cognitive Illumination

Corrupted Truthwatchers: Physical Progression and Spiritual Illumination

Voidwatcher/Nightform: Cognitive Progression and Spiritual Illumination

So the realm that spans these orders is the Cognitive Realm, though this might be different for other orders.  

What about the Oathgate spren? Normal Oathgates move purely in the Physical Realm, so they use Physical Transportation. The Corrupted Oathgate spren uses Cognitive Transportation because it takes people into the Cognitive Realm. So, Sja has changed the spren's surge from Physical to Cognitive. Which makes sense if Elsecallers have Cognitive Transportation and Physical Transformation, which they do (Elsecalling and Soulcasting). From there I think that Willshaper's have Physical Transportation because that was the power the Oathgates were origianlly using and I don't think they would have used a voidsurge to power them. Which leaves Spiritual Transportation for the Voidbinders and Corrupted Knights.  

To sum it up, Sja can transform the realmatics of surges from Physical -> Cognitive -> Spiritual. If she can turn Spiritual to Physical and complete the cycle we have yet to see.

Moving from Sja to Surgebinding/Voidbinding:

In my mind, the only difference separating the two magic systems is the realms they tend to work through. Knights mostly work in the Physical and Voidbinders mostly in the Spiritual. Which makes sense given that fused have no physical bodies of their own and that Voidbinding is like the "Drak Arts" of Roshar. The symmetry of the Surgebinding and Voidbinding charts also lends its weight to this theory, especially the inverted symmetry for the glyphs of the surges/voidsurges.

If people are wondering how Kaladin can use the physical aspect of Gravitaion, Lift the physical aspect of Progression, and Dalinar the Physical aspects of Adhesion. I think it is simply because there is a fundamental way of using each surge that is independent of its realmatics. So, the basic/fundamental way of using Adhesion, for example, is the full lashing. Both Kaladin and Dalinar use it, but I doubt Kaladin can learn to speak other languages or Dalinar control pressure like Kaladin can.

Lets start filling out a chart, feel free to lend me your thoughts on what should go where.

This makes the most sense to me for the Knights(I really like this one):

Order / Surges	Physical	Cognitive	Spiritual
Windrunner	Adhesion	Gravitation
Skybreaker	Gravitation	Division
Dustbringer	Division	Abrasion
Edgedancer	Abrasion	Progression
Truthwatcher	Progression	Illumination
Lightweaver	Illumination	Transformation
Elsecaller	Transformation	Transportation
Willshaper	Transportation	Cohesion
Stoneward	Cohesion	Tension
Bondsmith	?	?	Adhesion

For Voidbinders I think this makes sense, but it is subject to drastic changes:

Voidorder / Surges	Physical	Cognitive	Spiritual
Windrunner		Adhesion	Gravitation
Skybreaker		Gravitation	Division
Dustbringer		Division	Abrasion
Edgedancer		Abrasion	Progression
Truthwatcher		Progression	Illumination
Lightweaver		Illumination	Transformation
Elsecaller		Transformation	Transportation
Willshaper		Transportation	Cohesion
Stoneward		Cohesion	Tension
Bondsmith	?	?	?

For Corrupted Radiants we have(maybe):

Corrupted Order / Surges	Physical	Cognitive	Spiritual
Windrunner	Adhesion		Gravitation
Skybreaker	Gravitation		Division
Dustbringer	Division		Abrasion
Edgedancer	Abrasion		Progression
Truthwatcher	Progression		Illumination
Lightweaver	Illumination		Transformation
Elsecaller	Transformation		Transportation
Willshaper	Transportation		Cohesion
Stoneward	Cohesion		Tension
Bondsmith	?	?	?

That's all folks, now tear it apart.

Edit: Random speculation

Spiritual Adhesion seems to work on a similar concept as Feruchemical Connection from Mistborn. Spiritual Illumination seems similar Atium. Spiritual Transformation sounds scarily like Lerasium(i.e changing a spirit web).  Are we seeing some overlap with magic systems from other planets?

I particularly think that the Knight chart fits because the cognitive surges seem to fit their traits quite well. I don't know the specifics of Willshapers, but Cognitive Cohesion seems to fit the name quite well. Malata( or whatever the name of Mr.T's Dustrbinger is) seems like she has an abrasive personality and Cognitive Abrasion seems like something Releasers would be in to. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Varenus

[Fourth Of The Night]

20 minutes ago, Varenus said:

What about the Oathgate spren? Normal Oathgates move purely in the Physical Realm, so they use Physical Transportation. The Corrupted Oathgate spren uses Cognitive Transportation because it takes people into the Cognitive Realm.

(I just found out that I can highlight something and then it brings up a 'Quote this?' dialogue. Storms, that's useful!)

The Oathgates used to be able to allow passage to and from the CR, but Honor forbade them from doing this. See Shallan's conversation with the uncorrupted Thaylen City Oathgate Spren.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Fourth Of The Night
Typo correction!

[KidWayne he/him]

The only problem I see is that Shallan as a Lightweaver is still capable of soulcasting which would be physical transformation according to your definition, right? If that is the case, how does your theory explain two orders being able to do the same thing.

Alternate example: Both Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly which is physical gravitation.

I really like your theory. I don't think it completely falls apart on my observation. However, there's also a WoB that explains the KR learn their surges in a certain order, which adds credibility to the primary/secondary surge classification.

I suspect that the difference has always been which Shard's investiture is powering a given surge. Sja-anat is corrupting spren by tacking on Odium's investiture to them just like hemalurgy creates monsters by tacking other kinds of investiture onto a person/creature's sDNA.

What I think your theory might get right is that the KR surgebinding grants access to two realms of surges. I just don't think it breaks down as orderly as you have listed it. It seems that everyone using gravitation gets access to the physical variety.

[Varenus]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

The only problem I see is that Shallan as a Lightweaver is still capable of soulcasting which would be physical transformation according to your definition, right? If that is the case, how does your theory explain two orders being able to do the same thing.

Alternate example: Both Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly which is physical gravitation.

I really like your theory. I don't think it completely falls apart on my observation. However, there's also a WoB that explains the KR learn their surges in a certain order, which adds credibility to the primary/secondary surge classification.

I suspect that the difference has always been which Shard's investiture is powering a given surge. Sja-anat is corrupting spren by tacking on Odium's investiture to them just like hemalurgy creates monsters by tacking other kinds of investiture onto a person/creature's sDNA.

What I think your theory might get right is that the KR surgebinding grants access to two realms of surges. I just don't think it breaks down as orderly as you have listed it. It seems that everyone using gravitation gets access to the physical variety.

Like I said:

Quote

If people are wondering how Kaladin can use the physical aspect of Gravitaion, Lift the physical aspect of Progression, and Dalinar the Physical aspects of Adhesion. I think it is simply because there is a fundamental way of using each surge that is independent of its realmatics. So, the basic/fundamental way of using Adhesion, for example, is the full lashing. Both Kaladin and Dalinar use it, but I doubt Kaladin can learn to speak other languages or Dalinar control pressure like Kaladin can.

basic lashings and reverse lashings are part of this Idea. Presumably Szeth will be able to do a lot more with Gravitation.

[KidWayne he/him]

@Varenus Ah, sorry. Apparently, I didn't read that part for comprehension. Either way, that seems like a hole. It would make more sense if it worked like this:

KR Order: Windrunners
Surge: Gravitation				Surge: Adhesion
Physical	Cognitive	Spiritual		Physical	Cognitive	Spiritual
X	X			X	X

Then, it allows for your corruption theory to move one of the checkmarks from one box to another for one or both surges.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[Varenus]

 

@Ookla the Hatter That does make sense, and it very well could be. My problem is that if we assume that the basic form of each surge counts as the physical version of that surge, we must put a check in the Bondsmith's Physical Adhesion box. Which would either imply that Dalinar can manipulate pressure/vacuum like Kaladin or that he is worse at Physical Adhesion. I'm not sure I like either option when there is a simpler answer. But that's just, like, my opinion man

1 hour ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

The Oathgates used to be able to allow passage to and from the CR, but Honor forbade them from doing this. See Shallan's conversation with the uncorrupted Thaylen City Oathgate Spren.

This is what happens when your sample only has two data points. Oh well. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Varenus

[KidWayne he/him]

@Varenus Hey, no worries. Like I said, I like your theory.

As a side note, Dalinar can use Adhesion like Kaladin. He does so on his visit to Theylen City. In his conversation about it with the Stormfather, Dalinar calls it "healing the stone" and the Stormfather calls it a party trick compared to his ability to use spiritual Adhesion.

Another consideration for voidbinding is that if you compare the voidbinding surges to the normal surges you can see they are the same glyphs, just with rotational symmetry rather than bilateral symmetry. So, that likely implies some sort of corruption. I like your theory as an explanation for that.

 

[Varenus]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

As a side note, Dalinar can use Adhesion like Kaladin. He does so on his visit to Theylen City. In his conversation about it with the Stormfather, Dalinar calls it "healing the stone" and the Stormfather calls it a party trick compared to his ability to use spiritual Adhesion.

Is that actually Adhesion though? Where does the book say that? I have looked at it like three or four times, I wanted to address this but I was worried that I missed something. I though that the Stormfather was talking in general terms about Dalinar's surges. 

I was thinking that he was using Cognitive Tension to "strengthen" the Cognitive aspect of the statue to think that is was one whole piece again. Kind of like what we see Shai talk about in the Emperor's Soul. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Varenus