[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Mr Horrible]

So I really disliked this subplot and particularly its resolution. Fair call I was wanting Shallan/Kaladin, but my problems aren't really with them not getting together but rather with how everything happened. All the way through the book Shallan/Veil are crushing on Kaladin, Jasnah even explicitly called her out on this early on and absolutely nothing changed. It persisted nearly all the way up until the final few scenes before the wedding and I'm just like "...", now obviously she loves Adolin however this felt so rushed that I wonder if Brandon condensed it based on reader feedback.

It seems the only purpose to this subplot was differentiating Veil/Shallan/Radiant and I'm not a fan, they always felt distinct from the start.

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

At this point i actually prefer Kaladin to stay alone. As someone mentioned before he is more matured and ill tell more - Kaladin overgrew the relationships with girls.

Its in the way BS depicted Adolin and Shallan - simple boy and girl, a simple people with their flaws and desire to be happy - and Kaladin, hovering above the ground observing the world from the sky like a godlike sentry, thinking about how to save the world. Everything is in that contrast in these last chapters.

Kaladin no more belongs to that kind of relationships until hell find out someone really fitting. He just has Great Deeds to make to even be bothered by some love stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with it after OB. Kaladin is strong enough to carry the world and he has Syl to be comforted.

Idk we have several scenes of Syl really pushing Kaladin to find someone (whoever that is), in which case I expect that he will.

[Mondaysjelly]

As with most people, I felt like the milestone was a bit unsatisfying but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not yet resolved. I predict that:

• With Shallan's mental status quo more or less similar by OB's end, I reckon she'll still struggle with consolidating the multiple personalities and her involvement with the Ghostbloods. And until she confesses to Adolin about her dark past as he did to her (Sadeas), there is a wedge there that could cause tension between the couple. I see her confiding in either Kaladin or Navani, the latter which will bring up her own as yet unrevealed relationship experiences with her ex-husband, that may widen the fissures. 
• I suspect Sadeas' murder will play a more prominent role in Adolin's arc next book. Being a good man, I foresee him juggling the consequences of that with his "multiple" wives and Shallan's ulterior agenda with the Ghostbloods. 

Since it is a recurring theme in the books that the Kholin family are "tradition breakers", what with Dalinar marrying Navani and Jasnah becoming queen of Alethkar, it is entirely possible that they might be the couple that divorces, which is a concept that hasn't been really explored yet in this series. With Book 4 ending that Shallan is pregnant...

[Guest]

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

One of Adolin's best lines in the book is when he tells Shallan that he wants her as she is, flaws and all. Shallan really needed to hear that (it was one of the things I had been hoping to see).

There is a difference between being blindly accepting and being supportive. I can't believe how everybody chooses to ignore, that Adolin is becoming drinking buddies with Veil, while Shallan uses this circumstance to again hide behind Veil, when thinking about telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods and her involvement with them. Am I the only one, that sees the irony of the argument that Adolin lets "her be her", while this was exactly the thing she criticized about Kaladin (and even then it was just an assumption by her)? She's back where she started, creating this wonderful lie of a life with Adolin, choosing to ignore the difficult and uncomfortable parts of her life. I'm not saying her feelings for Adolin are not genuine, but I'm just so frustrated, that she keeps on bullshitting herself.

After the conversation with Kaladin, she gets contemplative. He is a person, who naturally brings her to think. She doesn't want that, so she runs back to Adolin and hopes to "live happily ever after". It is always about avoidance with her. There is nothing wrong with being happy, but this happiness should not be built on a cracking foundation. Adolin still doesn't know that Shallan is a double parricide, that she is in contact with the group of people that tried to killed his cousin etc. That is what I mean by, that Adolin doesn't know her. He recognizes her, but he doesn't know her. Which is another thing, that Shallan keeps telling herself.

Edited November 16, 2017 by SLNC

[Harbour he/him]

As i posted before, here is the intention on BS part to show the different reactions of Shallan on both Adolin and Kaladin.

Quote

 

Adolin glanced at the fluttering pages with the different versions of her. He reached out and hugged her, saying nothing. Which turned out to be the right thing to say.

*Adolin comforts her in between*

She leaned into him, listening to his heartbeat, his breathing. She felt his warmth. So warm. Comfortable. And strikingly unfamiliar. What was this peace? This place without fear?

 

 

Quote

 

Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead. The way her posture shifted.

And the way that she seemed to melt upon seeing Kaladin, lips rising to a grin. Blushing, she adopted a fond, even eager expression.

She was practically leering.

 

Some assumptions:

1) Adolin comforts her in the minutes of weakness and make her feel protected and let to forget about the problems.

2) Kaladin rises her up, makes firm and strong, and inspires her.

Basically with Adolin Shallan can be an ostrich to hide her head under the ground to ignore the inner and outer problems. With Kaladin she can be the woman who fight the inner and outer problems.

Its funny because she can live keeping the "Journey before Destination" Oath choosing any of the two options. She can hide from problems and do her stuff as LW towards the victory with Adolin or fight them on her way with Kaladin.

Still i remember:

Quote

The ancient code of the Knights Radiant says "Journey before destination". Some may call it a simple platitude, but it is far more. A journey will have pain and failure. It is not only the steps forward that we must accept. It is the stumbles. The trials. The knowledge that we will fail. That we will hurt those around us. But if we stop, if we accept the person we are when we fall, the journey ends.

In my opinion, feelings Adolin get out of Shallan wont make her better if to put her in the context of Dalinar's words.

Kaladin can make Shallan so much better than she is.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Harbour

[Shards of Mist he/him]

5 hours ago, winter devotion said:

What? How? They're? Best friends? And also? She's like thousands of years older than him and acts like a child at times?

 

Because the rules don't apply to Kaladin Stormblessed, that's how.  

[PhineasGage]

Hello all! Long time reader but first time poster here

I'm so glad this thread started. Since finishing OB I've been obsessing over various aspects of the story but particularly this one. 

Now I was a Shalladin shipper so bear with me given my previous preferences, but having read the book over the course of a single day, finishing at 2am, I was very tired and honestly felt really low at the conclusion, and this element of the story was definitely the cause. I am sure with a re-read, more time, and hopefully some discussion here I'll resolve some of my issues! So in advance, thank-you for your thoughts and feelings. Also, this is long so I'm really sorry.

So an an obsessive fan, I'd actually written out my thoughts on the progression of the Shadolin/Shalladin relationships as they stood at the end of WoR. I didn't have a specific preference before I wrote that essay but by the end, as many people have pointed out, I was sure there was so much more foreshadowing for Shalladin that I firmly ended up in that camp.

To be clear, I like Adolin. He's awesome. But unlike some, my major concern for Shadolin is that the relationship is not only not ideal for Shallan, it's not good, and may even be destructive to Adolin. I don't want him to go dark and I am genuinely worried that he will now. Think about it this way, he knows or at least should, that a part of Shallan (ie Veil) doesn't love him. Yikes. If my SO told me that I'd be devastated. Hell, if I felt that way about my SO I'd be devastated.

This doesn't make Shalladin any better of course, I'm not clear on each of Shallan's persona's feelings towards Kaladin. Obviously Veil likes him. Radiant seems the pragmatic one and prefers Adolin for reasons aside from emotion (ie he's a highprince, can teach her to use PatternBlade, enables her etc). But the Shallan persona (who I'm not convinced is any more "real" than the others) seems to like them both in different ways, BUT as of end of WoR she actually compares them, and Kaladin wins out, almost despite herself. I don't think Shallan should have married Adolin at this point, but, importantly, I am not inherently upset she didn't choose Kaladin - he simply doesn't need the drama she will bring by being so broken. 

That said, I don't think the whole thing is concluded. Lets look at the pre-wedding scene;

1. Shallan wears sapphire (unusual - we know the traditional Vorin colour for weddings is red). Now I am probably reading too much into this, but sapphire is the colour of the Windrunners. She could have worn any other colour. Why sapphire? I trust Sanderson not to put these kind of things in at random (although if Shalladin doesnt get any progression I may change my mind on this given the amount of work was put into it) and he specifically chose the colours for the different orders, something he took time over when researching. He could easily have made her wear the traditional red, which would have been appropriate for a Lightweaver, or Kholin Blue as she's joining the Kholin house. But no, he chooses, and makes a point of telling us, its sapphire. Not even just blue.
2. Kaladin sends her the boots, the perfect choice to make her feel less nervous and relieve some of the tension. Its been a long running theme between them, both in banter but also in fairly subtle subtext. No other gift does this for her. 
3. Pattern says "Mmm... This is a good you, Shallan." (emphasis mine). Not 'this is good for you' or 'this is you, Shallan'. Pattern likes lies, is this image of her a lie? It isn't clear, but he seems to know this is simply another version. 
4. Shallan brings out Veil and Radiant. She stills identifies as all three in some way. They haven't gone away, they still linger as options for her. Like many others here, I'm not convinced this is a good thing. Veil specifically says "He's good for you" (emphasis mine) - notice it is good for the Shallan persona, not for "us". She goes on to say "We could do far worse". Well that's flattering. About a third of Shallan thinks she could could do worse than a storming prince....? Even Radiant implicitly agrees as she says "But not much better" in reply - well that implies there is something better. What does that "pointed look" mean. The surface thought is that she's trying to stop Veil from pushing Shallan out of this union but there is a second reading - The best thing for Shallan, both as a person, and in terms of her progressing as a radiant would be to accept all three of these personas as aspects of her full personality, this is not good for Radiant or Veil as they would lose their individuality and autonomy. Adolin essentially allows Shallan to feel safe, and allows Veil and Radiant to keep existing. Great..... 
5. Finally, we get a letter from Mraize. Mraize has always thought "Veil" was the real person here, and refers to her as little knife - the term he uses for Shallan/Veil. This reinforces the idea that this is the real her. She pushes the thought away and goes to celebrate "being herself" . Basically I am not convinced this is entirely true. I mean, how much of Shallan's truth here can be trusted.

 

Ok some final thoughts. Shallan is a level 4 Lightweaver. She still has one more truth to reveal to become a full Radiant. This is likely to happen either towards the end of book 4, or (more likely imo) in book 5. Now this could be regarding how she became a surgebinder (presumably her family was pretty nasty even before she killed her mother) but that seems to have been implicitly understood at this point. My feeling is that she needs to accept that she is all of these women and stop hiding parts of herself away - she needs to accept her flaws etc and that she is not infallible. Interestingly, accepting the truth of situations seems to be part of all of the orders. Kaladin struggles to accept the truth that he cannot save everyone - indeed he can't progress because of it. Truth, or at least the subjective aspect of it, is important in the cognitive realm, although the Cryptics seem to take this to an extreme. Granted, we only have evidence for the WR and LW but accepting the truth of your own flaws and accepting that failure is a part of your journey is incredibly important for all people, not just Radiants. Shallan has not accepted this - so she created personas to overcome the inherent weaknesses of her personality. It seems like a strength but overall true strength comes from accepting that you cannot be perfect. 

So do I still ship Shalladin? Well, kinda, I cant believe that the huge amount of foreshadowing we got will lead to no payoff whatsoever, but if Sanderson chooses not to go there, in some ways I'll be relieved. I want Kaladin to be happy but after OB I'm not convinced that Shallan will make him so, particularly in her current state. Do I ship Shadolin? Well no, but not because I don't want Adolin to be happy - I do. I just think Shallan might actually make him unhappy and I don't think Adolin deserves that. 

[Guest]

First of all, welcome to the Shard @PhineasGage

There is another scene where she gives Adolin a Windrunner illusion... Talking about foreshadowing. And the way she looks at Kaladin hovering over the buildings, making an inner comment about how this "sentinel thing" will now become a thing of him? He still gets a rise out of her by simply being him... And yet she can't look away.

Those are things I just can't ignore, especially because it happened after she chose Adolin. Well, not the illusion thing, but the sentinel thing. And the illusion thing happened immediately after Adolin and Shallan shared a moment. I just find it strange.

Edited November 16, 2017 by SLNC

[Seloun]

it's worth noting that we do have a pretty good case study of another, similar triangle: Gavilar - Navani - Dalinar. And we know roughly how that ended up. So, who knows?

That said, I think it'd cheapen a lot of the decisions made near the end of the book if this gets revisited too soon. Specifically, Kaladin says he doesn't think he was actually in love with Shallan:

Quote

He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn’t be bitter. He didn’t feel resignation either. Instead he felt … agreement?

“Oh, them,” Syl said. “Well, I know that you don’t back down from fights. You’ve lost the round, but—”

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

“I can?”

“You should be able to.” He rubbed his finger on the rock. “I don’t think I loved her, Syl. I felt … something. A lightening of my burdens when I was near her. She reminds me of someone.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1201). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

That someone being, of course, Tien, which does make the scene rather more ambiguous. However, I think we're supposed to interpret the little scene immediately after with the color changing rock as Kaladin learning to cheer himself up at times.

Ultimately, while I think the relationships here were handled kind of poorly, I think I'd rather the parties stick to their guns and tie up this loose end.  Frankly, the thing that irritated me the most is that the whole secret about Helaran's death meant absolutely nothing - and that the secret meant nothing is really what convinces me that this is the actual resolution.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Seloun said:

Frankly, the thing that irritated me the most is that the whole secret about Helaran's death meant absolutely nothing - and that the secret meant nothing is really what convinces me that this is the actual resolution.

Honestly, we don't know. Shallan sometimes acted like a proper cremhole towards Kaladin and I sometimes thought, that that was because of Helaran. But we don't get a clear answer as Shallan doesn't seem to want to share her thoughts on it with us readers.

[PhineasGage]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Honestly, we don't know. Shallan sometimes acted like a proper cremhole towards Kaladin and I sometimes thought, that that was because of Helaran. But we don't get a clear answer as Shallan doesn't seem to want to share her thoughts on it with us readers.

Agreed. She actively pushed the thought away so I'm pretty sure this hasn't been addressed yet. The arrival of her 3 other brothers will likely result in her addressing this issue more now because they will be constant reminders, and anyway it seems likely Helaran will be brought up at some point.

That aside, Mraize sent her a letter with tidbits of details about Helaran which she should follow-up on, not-the-least because if she genuinely wants to understand the political scheming that is going on behind the scenes (Ghostbloods, Sons of Honour, Diagramists) she needs to get in with at least one of these groups. This will definitely cause her to have to confront Helaran's life choices, and thus his death, at some point. 

My guess, she isn't going to like some of those revelations. 

 

As a quick side note, do we know when she finds out in relation to her having trouble with identifying who she really is? Could this suppression actually be the trigger for her descending into her dissociative state? She didnt seem to be in one in WoR? (DID brief synopsis of diagnostic criteria from DSM-5: https://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/dissociative-identity-disorder/dissociative-identity-disorder-did-dsm-5-criteria/) I suspect there is a trigger, perhaps a small one. I'm already halfway through my second readthrough so I've missed it if indeed it is there. I'll look through on my third, but if someone has evidence one way or the other I'd be most grateful.

[Harbour he/him]

And dont forget that scene when she found out about Kaladin killing Helaran. Thats was a pretty strong burst out of the emotions that Shallan tried to suppress extremely hard and i believed it would be unleashed in equal way someday.

BS then simply cut off that string and never bring up her emotions about it again. Instead we saw Shallan slowly bullying Kaladin, probably because of that. That makes me believe she will explode in the Book4 or 5 about that. Her initial reaction was too noticeable to just fade away and be dealt with. And i think Shallan isn't the one who will allow such things to fade away so simply.

Also BS usually show how characters deal with their problems in the form of inner thoughts and reflection. He didn't show how Shallan went from burying her emotions to "well, whatever" state of mind. That makes me think we simply didn't see these thoughts yet.

[Blazenella he/him]

20 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Hey. You know Syl has a physical form in Shadesmar...

Syl is great match for Kaladin, but I don't even WANT to know the logistics of that relationship. Her form is in Shadesmar, which mens he would need an Elsecaller (Like Jasnah) to take him in and out if they wanted to get freaky.

[Marethyu316]

5 hours ago, Harbour said:

And dont forget that scene when she found out about Kaladin killing Helaran. Thats was a pretty strong burst out of the emotions that Shallan tried to suppress extremely hard and i believed it would be unleashed in equal way someday.

BS then simply cut off that string and never bring up her emotions about it again. Instead we saw Shallan slowly bullying Kaladin, probably because of that. That makes me believe she will explode in the Book4 or 5 about that. Her initial reaction was too noticeable to just fade away and be dealt with. And i think Shallan isn't the one who will allow such things to fade away so simply.

Also BS usually show how characters deal with their problems in the form of inner thoughts and reflection. He didn't show how Shallan went from burying her emotions to "well, whatever" state of mind. That makes me think we simply didn't see these thoughts yet.

It did come up one other time, when Kaladin returned. She does suppress her emotions, but she also tells herself that he was justified. Not sure if she really believes that or was just trying to keep herself from dwelling on it.

 

Quote

The rest of them had settled into a group of chairs except for Kaladin, who stood leaning against the wall. Looming like a thundercloud. He had killed Helaran, her brother. The emotion of that peeked out, but Shallan smothered it, stuffing it into the back of her mind. Kaladin wasn’t to be blamed for that. He’d just been defending his brightlord.

p. 412

 

[Shadowmancer he/him]

2 hours ago, Blazenella said:

Syl is great match for Kaladin, but I don't even WANT to know the logistics of that relationship. Her form is in Shadesmar, which mens he would need an Elsecaller (Like Jasnah) to take him in and out if they wanted to get freaky.

And with her perception of Honor, would either of them end up doing something with each other? I love them, and they are perfect for each other, but perhaps a romantic relationship is too far of a stretch.

[Slashzero]

Ever since Shallan came to know that Kaladin killed Helaran, she started suppressing her emotions regarding that incident. But it might have made her  suppress her feelings towards Kaladin as well. So it might be that ,unlike WoR and the first part of OB, she did not show much feelings for Kaladin cause she was actively suppressing them. Veil on the other hand did not have any such burdens and might have been showing her true feelings?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Slashzero
Typos

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

The three of them together were one of the most beautiful thing in OB. Kaladin protecting, yet knowing he could be himself and trusted Shallan and Adolin with everything he had. Shallan was the biggest issue while dancing between the two. But when she just let herself be she always knew they had her back and she honestly didn't need to hide even though she often did so nonetheless. And Adolin picking up the other two when they fell or couldn't carry on. It was beautiful.

Edited November 16, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[+Bliev she/her]

I suppose I never felt that Shallan had actual "feelings" for Kaladin--he didn't comfort her or give her strength, in as much as he excited her. The use of the word "leering" by Brandon seemed telling. Veil is comfortable around men and feels comfortable with her baser feelings--Kal felt like the "bad boy", the one she "couldn't have", but he didn't give her what she needed. I feel like Adolin gives her that. Wit tells her that she has to learn to accept all of those aspects of herself as truly herself--he says he sees the real her in much the same way that Adolin does. And as Dalinar notes, it's all about choice. Shallan chooses Adolin because she feels her best self when she is with him. He gives her what she needs. Parts of herself rebel against that, but she chooses. I think that's actually an important character arc. She doesn't deflect, she owns it--and she represses Veil's "leering" purposefully, knowing that Veil is just the sort that would sabotage Shallan's happiness in that way for her own ends. Yes, she has development to go--a lot--just like Adolin and Kaladin do. But I think she'll navigate it better with Adolin's steadiness and lightness more than Kal's intransigence and brooding. Plus, much like Jasnah, I don't think that Kal really needs that sort of relationship right now. But I've always been on the Shadolin train. haha

[Shosanna]

Basically everything I would have pointed of has been said, glad to see people share my sentament that the triangle was handled strangely. In the end I’m happy to finally have a resolution and not have to obsess over the whole “will they, won’t they” thing 

 

One thing though. When Sly and Kaladin were chatting about Shallan (after the “Adolin understands me” scene) and he mentions that Shallan reminded him of someone, I totally read that she reminded him of Sly! 

 

Ive never been a Sly x Kal shipper (they have always felt more like family to me) but they way she looked at him after the comment really had me wondering.

However people have pointed out here though he could easily have been talking about Tien, which would make sense. 

Anybody else read it as a reference to anyone other then Tien?

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure it was Tien, since Shallan has the same effect on him as Tien always had. He says it in the chasm, I think.

And, of course, the strangely colored rock.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[Starla]

I agree with others that this plot thread was a little clunky. Kaladin is my main man, so I usually look at things from his angle. I want whatever is good for him. I went into Oathbringer open to him having a relationship with Shallan if that’s what made him happy and nobody got hurt (I also love Adolin so I wouldn't want it at his expense.) However, by the end of the book I felt that Kaladin dodged a bullet. This is mainly due to Shallan’s increasingly erratic behavior throughout the book. I don't think she's ready for a long term committed relationship to anyone, and I would be concerned for Kaladin if he ended up in a relationship with her at this point. He has too much going on with the desolation and his own growth as a radiant to deal with all that.

I like Shallan and hope she can heal and find stability, but I am concerned that she will rely on her partner for that stability, rather than finding it within herself. At the end of the book it felt like she was completely rattled by her rapidly shifting feelings and personalities and grabbed a life raft wherever she could find it. Adolin is stable and steady and he makes her feel safe. He’ll be there when she needs him. I don’t think this will fix her issues, it is the illusion of security, and I worry for them in the long run.

Also, the Shadesmar section revealed some character traits I hadn’t considered before. Looking at Kaladin and Syl’s interactions, they are very much a dynamic duo, fiercely loyal, each looking out for the other before they look out for themselves. This Kaladin’s nature, he works well in a team and usually puts others' needs first. Shallan, on the other hand, is independent and focused on her own goals. I get the sense that this is part of her fundamental nature as an artist and a Lightweaver. Artists are focused on their own ideas and creations. Even her relationship with Pattern seems more academic than personal. They had very little interaction in Shadesmar, aside from whatever information Pattern could give. If and when Kaladin ever does have a relationship, I feel like he would work best with a strong, grounded partner who will have his back when he needs it, and I’m no longer sure Shallan can do that.

Aside from all that, I love the continuing bromance between Kaladin and Adolin, so I’m rooting for that to continue no matter where the romantic relationships lead. 

[Naerin]

On 11/15/2017 at 4:46 PM, firegazer said:

I really liked the book, but the romance stuff felt off to me, and it took me a while to really chew on why. This is not the first, the second, or even the third time that Sanderson has done the exact same romantic plotline: boy meets girl, they enter into an arranged marriage, there are potential troubles in there, but in the end they both discover the arranged marriage unexpectedly works perfectly for them. In point of fact, we got the same thing from Laral in this book too, so that's TWICE that female characters have decided they actually like their situation IN ONE BOOK.

The first time I read it, I thought it was a refreshingly different take than what you normally see in the media -- i.e. asking the question 'in societies where marriages are based on factors other than love, can you still make them positive relationships.' But at this point, the feminist in me is honestly starting to get deeply irritated with this weird idealization of arranged marriages. Once was interesting. This many times is really starting to bother me as a female reader. It takes me out of immersion because I have such a distasteful knee-jerk backlash to it that colours the way I feel about all characters involved, no matter how much I otherwise like them as characters. I don't know if that makes sense, or even if it's a feeling that extends to other readers at all (I might well be unique and everyone else has zero problems with this).

Completely agree. I'm a big fan of Sanderson's work, and one of the things I love is that he writes a lot of great and varied female protagonists, which is sadly STILL something of a rarity in the genre. But we've now had Elantris, Warbreaker, Shadows of Self, Bands of Morning, Words of Radiance, and now Oathbringer where the success of arranged marriage is actually a major plot point. And yeah, I'm not a female reader, but as a feminist this is starting to bother me. The whole Laral parable in particular seemed a little off. That exchange got almost as much focus as Kaladin learning he had a brother! Seriously? Why was it important to emphasize that she was just peachy marrying an old man (someone who by rights is basically a murderer)?! The more I think about it the more it irritates me to be honest. 
 
A related issue is how female many characters end up "settling down" with literally the first person they have ever been in a relationship with, even when it is not actually an arranged marriage. Siri and Susebron. Sarene and Raoden. Vin and Elend. Laral and Lord Piece-of-rust. Shallan and Adolin. Each one of these is essentially a Disney princess storyline, where the romantically naive and virginal young girl marries royalty. I actually cannot think of a single female protagonist's love interest (meaning married or explicitly in a romantic relationship by the end) in the cosmere books that is not a nobleman, prince, or god-king...

But back to Oathbringer. The romances here bother me because they seem to more blatantly peddle the whole arranged marriage = good trope, in a way that feels a little disingenuous. The Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin dynamic is set up as the classic love triangle. You've got the (again romantically naive, virginal) young woman choosing between the passionate, dangerous, "bad-boy" option, and the loving, romantic, "safe" option. This is clearly set up by the fact that Veil, Shallan's "street" persona with "terrible taste in men" keeps focusing on Kaladin and his wildness/passion. Adolin is described as the guy who "knows the real her" and always makes her feel safe. Classic trope. Except...that makes absolutely zero sense here. How is Kaladin the "dangerous" option? His biggest character flaw (after "getting over" his completely rational hatred of an oppressive class structure) is literally not being able to stop himself from trying to protect everybody! That and he is grumpy (mostly as the result of, you know, clearly battling chronic depression). He is the only character of the main protagonists to have a serious moral crisis about killing the Singers BEFORE it is revealed that, whoops, humans are the Voidbringers after all. Adolin, the "nice guy," has killed Parshendi without remorse for years, and still doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it in this book. But still we have this repeated reference to Kaladin's "passion" which is obviously meant to parallel the reveal that Odium is the god of Passions, and sets Kaladin up metaphorically as the "dangerous" choice in the love triangle, when in fact Adolin almost certainly has a MUCH higher body count and seems to feel less bad about it too. He also passionately murders Sadeas basically right after Kaladin makes a vow to protect people according to what is right and not according to his passions. And aside from the amount of murder that each guy has done, we also know that Adolin has courted a comically large number of women in the warcamps, and it is implied that at least a few of those relationship ended because of him essentially cheating on the woman (or not treating them very well in one way or another). This is written off as him just not having found the right person yet. Kaladin, meanwhile, is implied to have been in exactly one relationship, which ended because she moved away and he felt it was his duty to stay in the army and protect people. 

My point is not that Shallan should end up with Kaladin. I actually think it would have been awesome if the three of them were just close friends. I think this would have been much more in character for Shallan, frankly. My point is just that the triangle was written in such a way that there needed to be an excuse for why Adolin, the arranged spouse, was the "right" or "safe" choice. In other words, there couldn't be two viable choices that Shallan was legitimately torn between. One (Kaladin) had to be artificially presented as the "wrong" choice based in Veil's "horrible taste in men." In essence, it robs Shallan of agency because it frames it as though there is only one "genuine" choice for her. The reason given for her not to choose Kaladin could frankly apply equally well if not more so to Adolin. But this is ignored in favour of what is more or less the classic Disney princess ending. 

I'll point out again that I love the actual characters involved. I just feel like in this situation they were forced into romantic archetypes and tropes in which they really, really didn't fit.  And it does seem like this was done to fit into a broader trend that, as @firegazer said, is a little bit troubling. 

[Harbour he/him]

Love that angle you @Naerin brought here. Absolutely agree with your view on dissonance between Shallan's opinion on Kaladin and Adolin and the reality. 

And that actually make me think that Sanderson did all of that on purpose. There are too many wrong things that surrounds this triangle in OB and bother me. I listed them on the first page of this thread.

Maybe I mistakenly think BS is a God's Writer and he just failed to do a believable love story. But maybe he didn't fail? Maybe he intentionally made Shallan mistaking. Maybe he wanted to create this "wrong feeling" to show how teenagers are sometimes mistaken and do stupid things or analyze their feelings wrong. Maybe he did this thing to build upon it in the next books, to work on the mistakes Shallan (Adolin and Kaladin too) made.

I'm very skeptical about the chances of Adolin/Shallan marriage to survive or to survive in that form through the 7 books left given that it itself was based on confusing details and probably wrong foundation. 

[PhineasGage]

27 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I'm very skeptical about the chances of Adolin/Shallan marriage to survive or to survive in that form through the 7 books left given that it itself was based on confusing details and probably wrong foundation. 

I agree completely. I went back and re-read some of the interactions between Adolin and Shallan after she chose him. They are so mushy and frankly nauseating! Now they havent actually known each other that long so I suppose it is reasonable - but Shallan describes it as love and honestly (imo) it isn't. It is lust/passion/crush type feelings. They are perfectly normal and natural for the type of relationship they are having but it isnt love (yet). This actually echoes what Kaladin says about Shallan. Of course he wasn't in love with her - he hadn't known her long enough. Love doesn't work like that.

Anyway to give some quotes about what I'm getting at (from chapter 122 - I'm on Kindle so don't have page numbers, sorry)
 

Quote

 

"Adolin wrapped his arms around Shallan from behind. "It looks beautiful."

"You look beautiful," she replied.

"You are beautiful."

"Only because you're here. Without you, I fade."

 

 Ugh, sickening. Anyway, there are other moments where she feels "giddy" and "silly". Although she does say "something had changed. Something incredible" which is at least a little heartening. But we still see a huge amount of focus on the superficial aspects. Anyway I don't blame Teshav for rolling her eyes at them.

Now I hope they grow together but given my other thoughts on the matter I am genuinely worried about it. Love takes time and understanding. As far as I know, Adolin doesn't know anything about Shallan's personal history. Does he even know her father is dead? She told Dalinar so presumably Adolin does, but it seems unlikely that she told him that she killed her dad, let alone that she also killed her mother. We don't know if she goes ahead and tells him of the Ghostbloods, though it's implied she might well have done by the time the next book comes out. That's a huge amount of personal history that I for one would like to know before I committed to someone. Hell of a wedding present otherwise....

Anyway, my point is that it is normal early in a relationship to feel the way Shallan feels, but it seems to be much more like infatuation than love. 

Psychology Today did an article on this ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201404/20-questions-will-tell-you-if-its-love) now obviously Psychology struggles to model human behaviour because of its complexity, and no individual fits the model perfectly anyhow because it averages human behaviours from many individuals, so assume some flaws in this, but its the best model I could find that was easy to interpret for a lay-person.

That being said, I (of course) tried to score Shallan using this at the end of the book based on how I interpreted how she was feeling and came up with some figures. In set 1 (infatuation) she scores somewhere in the low-mid forties. On attachment, she scores a little higher, low-mid 50s. Based on my own interpretation (and I'd be interested in knowing how others score her) I would suggest she most aligns with the group who "were not yet in a romantic relationship with the object of their desire". This suggests that she has not yet formed a full attachment to Adolin but this does not mean that she won't in the future. Attachment grows over time and is the best indicator for happiness in the long term. Higher infatuation scores are aligned with unhappiness.  Just as a comparison, I'm in a long term happy cohabiting relationship. I score only 14 on infatuation and 62 on attachment. Whilst I am regularly silly with my SO, he doesnt make me feel silly, we act in a silly manner together and feel perfectly sensible when we do it. I'm nearer Jasnah's age than Shallan's though.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Love takes time and understanding. As far as I know, Adolin doesn't know anything about Shallan's personal history. Does he even know her father is dead? She told Dalinar so presumably Adolin does, but it seems unlikely that she told him that she killed her dad, let alone that she also killed her mother. We don't know if she goes ahead and tells him of the Ghostbloods, though it's implied she might well have done by the time the next book comes out. That's a huge amount of personal history that I for one would like to know before I committed to someone. Hell of a wedding present otherwise....

First of all, I agree with finding their cheesy dialogue straight out of a bad YA romance novel nauseating,,, I sincerely hope, that they soon grow out of that, because I don't know, if I can take a whole Stormlight book of that. But personal opinion.

Now regarding what I quoted. This is so important. Adolin doesn't know rust about her. He doesn't understand her. He doesn't understand why she has her problems. And he doesn't even challenge her on them. Hell, he's becoming drinking buddies with Veil. Veil. This suggests that Shallan keeps becoming Veil and Adolin is completely okay with it? Does Shallan have any inclination to even tell him about her past? Well, considering, that she plans to leave the Ghostblood explanation to Veil (hence the bold part), I'd be very surprised, if she did. The important thing in the implication is, that she wants Veil to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. She herself has not even spent a thought on that, quite the opposite she pushes it away again, when it comes up.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Hell, he's becoming drinking buddies with Veil. Veil.

Exactly this, its straight up wrong. Its great to be friends with your SO as well as more, but you shouldn't be more friends than anything else. Most importantly, Adolin "wouldn't" be intimate with her - like he could tell when Veil was in play and not only did he recognise that she wasn't interested in him, but he presumably wasn't interested in her either. Great, what a fantastic basis for a relationship. And Veil has no specific need to tell Adolin beyond Shallan wanting her to. When she is Veil, perhaps she won't tell him after all, although I suspect she will - it builds conflict in the relationship for one thing.

This is where I feel that Shallan's eventual progression as a Radiant has to be with resuming a full identity rather than using somewhat 2D personas that fit each aspect of her life. Most people don't have the option of choosing what situations to face so they just have to cope. Shallan avoids unpleasant situations by retreating to a persona so she doesnt have to deal with things, at some point she'll have to acknowledge this if she wants to progress to a "full" Radiant.