Malazan

[Ammanas]

It seems like Brent Weeks always gets a lot of love around here and now that I finished the Night Angel books (along with all of the current Lightbringer books) I wanted to share a few thoughts. I have found Brent Weeks books to be deeply spiritual. I know that a person without a belief in God can read them completely different than I did, but I think the subtlety and my own personal interpretation makes it all the more powerful. 

There is a lot of fakers and abusers of religion in his books including: the Prism, the God King and Kali's real identity. There is also a lot of sorrow and unhappiness because of religion. But there is also a sense of Providence that runs throughout his books and how everything seems to be guided almost miraculously to work out for the best. I think that despite everything there is a ton of evidence that The "One God" and Orhalem exist (in his worlds) and take a interest in human affairs. There is a lot of themes throughout his books redemption, sacrifice, and forgiveness as well. One moment that comes to mind is Ironfist, upon witnessing a miraculous shot, regains his belief in God and cries about how he is forgiven despite his mistakes. Another is Irene seeing a vision of how she would save the world despit how imposdible it looked in book one. Also Count Drakes conversion story. A lot of readers could shrug these occurences off to coincidence, but I love how Weeks leaves it open to interpretation.

I guess my goal with the post was not to convert or argue with anyone about religion. But, to show how books can enrich our personal lives. Has anyone else read his books in the manner I did or just have any thought about Weeks' novels?

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Been an awful lot of non-Malazan talk in the Malazan thread lately 

[Ammanas]

We're evolving....but in malazan news I did find they had a new blurb for the new Esslemont book. The forum I found it on said it was via amazon, but I couldn't find it there. It sounds official though: 

The incessant war between the bickering city states of Quon Tali rages. So engrossed are the warring lords and princes in their own petty feuds that few notice that an upstart mage from Dal Hon has gained control of the southern seas. But some powers are alarmed.

And in the meantime, as Purge and Tali indulge in what seems like a their never-ending game of war, a mercenary caught up in the fight between the two states suddenly refuses to play along and causes all sorts of chaos. Simultaneously, a pair of escapees from Castle Gris make their way across this ravaged landscape of flame and butchery. Their intention to seek out the legendary Crimson Guard.

And then there's Kellanved who could not care less about any of this petty politicking or strategy or war. Something other and altogether more mysterious has caught his attention and he - together with a reluctant and decidedly sceptical Dancer - traverse continents and journey through the Realms in pursuit... But this ancient mystery that has so captivated Kellanved is neither esoteric nor ephemeral. No, it is of an altogether darker and more dangerous hue. It involves the Elder races themselves, and more specifically - certainly more alarmingly - the semi-mythic, and universally dreaded, Army of Dust and Bone.

Surely no one in their right mind would be so foolish as to embark on a journey from which none have returned? Well, no one except Kellanved that is...

Returning to the turbulent early history of what would become the Malazan Empire, here is the third awesome chapter in Ian C. Esslemont's new epic fantasy sequence.

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

I haven't been keeping the Esslemont books on my radar. I'll have to investigate. And besides @TheOrlionThatComesBefore, he's got Shadowthrone on his avatar. That automatically makes all his posts just a little Malazan related... right? Meanwhile every time I see your avatar, I remember that I was reading Those Books about a year ago and get angry all over again at myself, lol.

Re: religious perspective in books in general

I've found the presence/persistence of religion/higher power to be A Thing in both Weeks and Sanderson's books. The idea of Fate/Destiny in WoT is also A Thing. Frankly, I'm an atheist, and I enjoy it from a philosophical and anthropological perspective, seeing how it affects characters motivations, social structure, and the machinations of the deities themselves. I especially enjoy anything that delves into the origins of religious/cultural-but-basically-religious practices like Sanderson always does.

Really, It's one of the reasons I found Malazan so refreshing. "Gods" are real, but also humanized, flawed, and beholden to mortality. It's very often questions of balance, power, obligation, and time that come into play rather than the more ephemeral but pervasive fate and faith. It's also not concerned with fairness so much as consequences. I love that Erikson even mocks the idea of justice by personifying it in the zealotry of the Forkrul Assail.

Basically, @Ammanas I agree with what you're seeing/saying, but experience it intellectually rather than spiritually. I found the Malazan books to be more personally affecting for their human-ness, even when dealing with alien gods, in that way.

Edit: do we need a Brent Weeks thread?

Edited July 26, 2018 by officiumdefunctorum

[Orlion Blight he/him]

5 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

I haven't been keeping the Esslemont books on my radar. I'll have to investigate. And besides @TheOrlionThatComesBefore, he's got Shadowthrone on his avatar. That automatically makes all his posts just a little Malazan related... right? Meanwhile every time I see your avatar, I remember that I was reading Those Books about a year ago and get angry all over again at myself, lol.

Esslemont is a strange beast. It's best to view his work as "complimentary" for the most part. 

Though his new trilogy has been really fun so far.

With regards to Those Books, I think it's funny that I still have not read the Aspect Emperor, and suspect the vast majority of issues are in those books (I recently finished Prince of Nothing and think I've noticed aspects of what's to come. "Oh," I says to myself, "that's a pretty strong reason to start out liking the series and then hating it. It's one thing to have an extended study of the depravity and malleability of Man... quite a different matter if the conflict is from the Platonic Form of Obscenity."

I wonder if a similar shift in tone (in type, not in scale) is responsible for the poor reception of the Kharankas Trilogy. 

[Ammanas]

Speaking of gods in the malazan world. What did everything think of Nefarious Bredd? Based upon events in The Crippled God I think the faith of the Malazan soldiers created it. It never existed, but so many people started believing it that it took upon its own life and became real. I think there is a name for such a thing, but can't think of it. I feel like Nefarious Bredd is unique because if my idea holds he is the only one of its kind in the malazan world (that I know of). Although various Gods gain power through worship they all existed before the worshippers faith.

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

1 hour ago, Ammanas said:

Speaking of gods in the malazan world. What did everything think of Nefarious Bredd? Based upon events in The Crippled God I think the faith of the Malazan soldiers created it. It never existed, but so many people started believing it that it took upon its own life and became real. I think there is a name for such a thing, but can't think of it. I feel like Nefarious Bredd is unique because if my idea holds he is the only one of its kind in the malazan world (that I know of). Although various Gods gain power through worship they all existed before the worshippers faith.

Honestly I thought of Bredd as a joke that became a kind of urban legend for those not In On It. Like blaming strange things on a ghost and then other people taking you seriously. I'd think that

Spoiler

Grub and Coltane's deification by the Burned Tears is more of what you're thinking of, a manifestation of Chain of Dogs.

@TheOrlionThatComesBefore oh god don't read it. SAVE YOURSELF. It's basically... relentless misery-porn. It's very much the subversion of Tolkien's LOTR Quest in exactly every way, right down to the Non-Men/S'rank. The Quest devolving into madness instead of glorious victory. It's seriously a four novel long exercise in nihilism and "up yours, Tolkien, haha people are TERRIBLE AND HONOR IS A MYTH" using Tolkien's own voice. By the time unholy consult came out I was very much Over It and like "welp, horrific rape and massive betrayal, must be Tuesday". Also, there is just so much... seed.

Kharkanus is not even in the same universe, I'd say. Erikson's voice is still very present, which is why I think I enjoyed it. I'd say it's the... differences in the characters that we know, and the inconsistency with what we think we know from the Malazan world, and the somewhat screwy timeline of it all. There is a lot of what someone in this thread called "philosophical wankery", though I'd not say any more than in what we experience in the main Malazan storyline. The cool bits are definitely what goes down with Draconus, his son, the Shake, and the exploration of the Azathanai, K'rul, and how they relate to the creation of Elder Gods and the Warrens, though all in a much more storylike format than The Silmarillion. It has nothing of the arrogance of Bakker's grimdark, though it deals with some of the same themes, i.e. betrayal for 'reasons', using good people for your own ends, Sudden Murder, rape, etc.

Edited July 26, 2018 by officiumdefunctorum

[Ammanas]

18 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

Honestly I thought of Bredd as a joke that became a kind of urban legend for those not In On It. Like blaming strange things on a ghost and then other people taking you seriously

How would you interpret the soldier that introduces himself to Fiddler as Nefarious near the end of book 10? Do you believe it was a soldier just pretending to be Nefarious?

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

2 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

How would you interpret the soldier that introduces himself to Fiddler as Nefarious near the end of book 10? Do you believe it was a soldier just pretending to be Nefarious?

Until just now, yes, lmao. I suppose it is possible Nefarious Bredd 'manifested', but I think it more likely it was some dude screwing with Fiddler. I haven't though about him at all, really, and now I suppose I should!

[Ammanas]

@officiumdefunctorum Here is the scene again in case you want a you want a refresher; perhaps it will always be one of those malazan mysteries

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

3 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

@officiumdefunctorum Here is the scene again in case you want a you want a refresher; perhaps it will always be one of those malazan mysteries

I remembered what you were talking about, but still... It feels like something a Malazan marine would do, to mess with Fiddler like that. He sounds a bit like that Dalhonese mage, too, doesn't he? Coincidence? Or it could be Erikson being sneaky and the Malazan Magic doing its thing like it did with Grub in a "blink and you'll miss it" kind of way. Who knows. I never thought I'd think this much about Nefarious Bredd.

[Ammanas]

That's part of the beauty of the series! It's so easy to go down the rabbit hole with fringe theories, interests, and inside jokes!

[Orlion Blight he/him]

39 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

Honestly I thought of Bredd as a joke that became a kind of urban legend for those not In On It. Like blaming strange things on a ghost and then other people taking you seriously. I'd think that

  Hide contents

Grub and Coltane's deification by the Burned Tears is more of what you're thinking of, a manifestation of Chain of Dogs.

@TheOrlionThatComesBefore oh god don't read it. SAVE YOURSELF. It's basically... relentless misery-porn. It's very much the subversion of Tolkien's LOTR Quest in exactly every way, right down to the Non-Men/S'rank. The Quest devolving into madness instead of glorious victory. It's seriously a four novel long exercise in nihilism and "up yours, Tolkien, haha people are TERRIBLE AND HONOR IS A MYTH" using Tolkien's own voice. By the time unholy consult came out I was very much Over It and like "welp, horrific rape and massive betrayal, must be Tuesday". Also, there is just so much... seed.

Kharkanus is not even in the same universe, I'd say. Erikson's voice is still very present, which is why I think I enjoyed it. I'd say it's the... differences in the characters that we know, and the inconsistency with what we think we know from the Malazan world, and the somewhat screwy timeline of it all. There is a lot of what someone in this thread called "philosophical wankery", though I'd not say any more than in what we experience in the main Malazan storyline. The cool bits are definitely what goes down with Draconus, his son, the Shake, and the exploration of the Azathanai, K'rul, and how they relate to the creation of Elder Gods and the Warrens, though all in a much more storylike format than The Silmarillion. It has nothing of the arrogance of Bakker's grimdark, though it deals with some of the same themes, i.e. betrayal for 'reasons', using good people for your own ends, Sudden Murder, rape, etc.

I believe that is why I mentioned it as a matter of type rather than scale (Erikson's grimdark trilogy is fairly nihilistic, I say, but Bakker cranks up the nihilism dial and tears it off).

Certainly reader's expectations are different. As grim as Book of the Fallen gets, it still has an optimistic tone. Prince of Nothing starts out with "things are meaningless and we are controlled by circumstances, is there a way out of it? " to, if I'm reading the foreshadowing right, "not now, we gotta to set all that aside to deal with just so much... seed...ah, rust, I caused what I was trying to prevent. " 

With Erikson, there are several cases where redemption is possible. Damnation is not a permanent state, or even necessarily one that most of the characters are actually in. 

With Bakker, damnation is permanent and irrevocable... and worse, one might simply and unwittingly be manipulated into it by what comes before. That difference alone would account for why people are fine with the gritty Malazan but not the gritty Second Apocalypse (and that's not even getting into the Tuesday night betrayal and rape!)

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

43 minutes ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

I believe that is why I mentioned it as a matter of type rather than scale (Erikson's grimdark trilogy is fairly nihilistic, I say, but Bakker cranks up the nihilism dial and tears it off).

Certainly reader's expectations are different. As grim as Book of the Fallen gets, it still has an optimistic tone. Prince of Nothing starts out with "things are meaningless and we are controlled by circumstances, is there a way out of it? " to, if I'm reading the foreshadowing right, "not now, we gotta to set all that aside to deal with just so much... seed...ah, rust, I caused what I was trying to prevent. " 

With Erikson, there are several cases where redemption is possible. Damnation is not a permanent state, or even necessarily one that most of the characters are actually in. 

With Bakker, damnation is permanent and irrevocable... and worse, one might simply and unwittingly be manipulated into it by what comes before. That difference alone would account for why people are fine with the gritty Malazan but not the gritty Second Apocalypse (and that's not even getting into the Tuesday night betrayal and rape!)

The tone of the two stories is also just so different. There is a complete lack of levity in Bakker's work, I think, whereas Erikson is always dishing up the tragedy of good intentions with a joke or two.

I think Erikson likes to give equal credence to the power of compassion and the good in people, whereas Bakker continuously punches you in the face with, as you accurately stated, the darkness that comes before, and the indifference of the petty tyrants in the sky.

I'll say this for The Aspect Emperor. It sticks to its themes, and it's trajectory, although offers nothing of predictability, possibly in an ironic way what with the presence of pseduo-omniscient and admittedly insane psychopaths. There is also something of the metaphorical... "climax" in how it goes out with a whimper, instead of a bang.

I got what I wanted from the series, though. Which was to figure out how it bloody well ended. More than anything it's not even the content that pisses me off, it's the voice. I just don't think I like Bakker's style. It's one of the reasons that I seldom re-read LOTR, it's high-handedness. But the florid High Chant (ha, WoT reference) of LOTR makes the moments of glory all inspirational and Eye of the Tiger. It makes Bakker's Second Apocalypse uncanny in the Freudian sense, creating a cognitive dissonance that is like nails on a chalkboard. I absolutely believe that that is his intention, as well, so well done in that aspect. I just didn't enjoy it like I do Abercrombie's books, for example. Or, well, Erikson's.

Truthfully I've never considered Malazan to be grimdark, though I guess it kinda fits?

Edited July 27, 2018 by officiumdefunctorum

[Ammanas]

37 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

Truthfully I've never considered Malazan to be grimdark, though I guess it kinda fits?

Grimdark is a remarkably fluid term that could mean about anything so I say malazan fits! My own personal definition is where the author tries to interject/include a sense of real life brutality and violence into a fantasy world. It's usually described in more detail, or more of a focus than what's included in a "epic" or "high" fantasy books. That's my definition, but I don't think there is a universal one.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Ammanas

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

41 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

Grimdark is a remarkably fluid term that could mean about anything so I say malazan fits! My own personal definition is where the author tries to interject/include a sense of real life brutality and violence into a fantasy world. It's usually described in more detail, or more of a focus than what's included in a "epic" or "high" fantasy books. That's my definition, but I don't think there is a universal one.

I've noticed that, in terms of people's use of the term. I suppose my own thoughts on it transcend the violence/brutality aspect alone and I think of grimdark as also infusing tonal/stylistic aspects, in addition to the realistic depiction of war/violence.

But I've only read like... Three things I would consider grimdark, then. So. vOv

[Ammanas]

12 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

But I've only read like... Three things I would consider grimdark, then

You have got to read, who I believe, started all this modern grimdark books...Glen Cook! I will not lie, but the narrators are not very good but his books are awesome! He has a ton of books, but The Black Company series is the best place to start (the narrator for that series is ok...better than his other audiobooks but not is the same league as the Simon Vance and Kramers of the world). Glen Cook has been such a huge influence on Erikson that I will just let Steven explain how much he has meant to him

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

The Black company has been on my list for some time! I just had it re-recommended to me a couple weeks ago, and I bought the first audiobook to give it a try. If the narrator ruins it, I can always attempt to do the actual reading thing.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

@officiumdefunctorum Though grim, I'm not sure I would consider Malazan grimdark etiher. Maybe the Kharankas Trilogy. Not anything by Esslemont. As @Ammanas, it is definitely used fluidly. I think grimdark tends to be more cynical than other fantasy works. Things do not work out, all is pain and sorrow...it's kinda taking "gritty realism" and using it as an answer to standard fantasy escapism. 

Bakker is definitely more of a stylistic writer than Erikson, which is probably a major component of what draws me to the work (I like stylish prose). That said, Bakker is nowhere near the best in this regard, probably because like you said, he's committed to his themes. One's prose cannot soar if it is diving into the Pit of Depravity. 

To give you an idea of what I mean by stylish prose, here are three examples of various ages: Titus Groan by Mervyn Peake, Little, Big by John Crowley, Perdido Street Station by China Mieville and Space Opera by Catherynne M Valente (that last one came out this year and is fantastic! It's sold as Hitchhiker's Guide meets Eurovision, but I loved it even without being familiar with either of those).

Some Glenn Cook is good. I've only read the first Black Company trilogy and enjoyed it. Main issue has more to do with the fact that latter writers will always improve on earlier ones (they should, anyway) so I kinda wanted more then what might be considered mostly bare-bones story telling.

[AngelEy3 he/him]

Whoa! Lots of catch up for me. I'm in the 'Bredd is a new God' camp. Created like Grub on the Chain of Dogs. 

 

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

1 hour ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

@officiumdefunctorum Though grim, I'm not sure I would consider Malazan grimdark etiher. Maybe the Kharankas Trilogy. Not anything by Esslemont. As @Ammanas, it is definitely used fluidly. I think grimdark tends to be more cynical than other fantasy works. Things do not work out, all is pain and sorrow...it's kinda taking "gritty realism" and using it as an answer to standard fantasy escapism. 

Bakker is definitely more of a stylistic writer than Erikson, which is probably a major component of what draws me to the work (I like stylish prose). That said, Bakker is nowhere near the best in this regard, probably because like you said, he's committed to his themes. One's prose cannot soar if it is diving into the Pit of Depravity. 

I agree with you about grimdark. I suppose tonally, Kharkanus definitely digs into those elements more. I'm probably just remembering the hilarious parts and not the literal backstabbing, tragic misunderstandings, and horrifying mutilations going on. It's all quite stabby at times.

Style is super important. I think I enjoy the straightforward more than the high handed, most of the time, though sometimes I'm really in the mood for some good soaring prose, a la the Horn of Gondor causing orcs to flee from the terrible sound, and whatnot. 

And lmao, the Pit of Depravity indeed. Honestly, Bakker gave it his best shot but you really lose the shine after like the 9,000th Sranc boner. I am 100% behind the idea that he half wrote that series just to weird people like me out. It's like... literary impressionism. It's still naked women, but with distorted perspective. Though IMO it's hardly brilliant. What genres are those other books you mentioned?

 

@AngelEy3 The idea is growing on me. I suppose it's unlikely there'd be any random marines that Fiddler didn't know, at that point. It still has the feeling of someone pulling Fid's leg, though.

Edited July 27, 2018 by officiumdefunctorum

[Orlion Blight he/him]

1 minute ago, officiumdefunctorum said:

I agree with you about grimdark. I suppose tonally, Kharkanus definitely digs into those elements more. I'm probably just remembering the hilarious parts and not the literal backstabbing, tragic misunderstandings, and horrifying mutilations going on. It's all quite stabby and at times.

Style is super important. I think I enjoy the straightforward more than the high handed, most of the time, though sometimes I'm really in the mood for some good soaring prose, a la the Horn of Gondor causing orcs to flee from the terrible sound, and whatnot. 

And lmao, the Pit of Depravity indeed. Honestly, Bakker gave it his best shot but you really lose the shine after like the 9,000th Sranc boner. I am 100% behind the idea that he half wrote that series just to weird people like me out. It's like... literary impressionism. It's still naked women, but with distorted perspective. Though IMO it's hardly brilliant. What genres are those other books you mentioned? 

Titus Groan is fantasy, but a different type of fantasy... like Dickensish-farce that takes place mostly in a castle that covers the size of a small town. This is the most stylish of all the ones I mentioned, and I have been known to say that fantasy has yet to reach the heights of Peake's Titus Groan and Gormenghast. (I say this because I stubbornly keep John Crowley out of fantasy).

Perdido Street Station is New Weird Fantasy with some definite horror elements. Maybe a little steampunk, too. The style borrows a lot from Peake, but is more readily accessible. It's more likely you can just pick this up and read it than Titus Groan.

Little, Big would be classified as fantasy by pretty much everyone but me. I don't want to deal with choosing who I think created the best work in their field: Mervyn Peake or John Crowley. So I say this is magic realism (and some others do, too!) It's a family history that follows a family for a few generations (three? Four?) and the deal with this family and the area they are in is that they have interactions with fairies (though only the women are usually the ones that can actually catch glimpses.)

Space Opera is glam-science fiction. It's written in a frenetic style that evokes lots and lots of run-on sentences that are just fantastic. It's also humorous and somewhat cathartic for our times. I would say it's the most accessible out of all that I've mentioned, and there's an audio version of it!

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

Kitten Update:

No more blue on Silchas Ruin's eyes. I'll always hope that one day they turn red as death, but for now the kind of amber kind of gray in the right light thing he's got going on is pretty okay. Also, whisker nubbins.

 

[AngelEy3 he/him]

Just finished my first Reread of the Fallen. The last chapter should come with a complimentary box of tissues. Yes. A whole box. 

[officiumdefunctorum she/her]

24 minutes ago, AngelEy3 said:

Just finished my first Reread of the Fallen. The last chapter should come with a complimentary box of tissues. Yes. A whole box. 

Wholeheartedly agree.

(Also, what are you reading next?)