Metalminds and shardblades

[XenosHg]

So, we know that Hemalurgy allows to create any combination of powers, but that's just cheating.

In Bands of Mourning, we supposedly see that it's possible to make feruchemical metalminds that allow anyone to use Feruchemy.

Can there be a way, by combining already mentioned things from Stormlight Archive, to jailbreak dead Shardblades, allowing anyone to Surgebind?

[Shig]

7 minutes ago, XenosHg said:

So, we know that Hemalurgy allows to create any combination of powers, but that's just cheating.

In Bands of Mourning, we supposedly see that it's possible to make feruchemical metalminds that allow anyone to use Feruchemy.

Can there be a way, by combining already mentioned things from Stormlight Archive, to jailbreak dead Shardblades, allowing anyone to Surgebind?

I believe it has been stated that surgebinding comes from both the user and the spren, so the only way to access those powers would be to not only have the connection to the spren (which could possibly be faked with feruchemy, as you stated) but you would also have to revive the spren as well. The issue there is that they were killed by having their oath broken, and the only person (with current knowledge) that could repair that oath would be the original wielder. We've seen with Shallan that it can be done (or at least Pattern was ALMOST dead) but the circumstances lie more with the spren itself, and not the connection.

 

Edit: Also, I think thats kind of what fabrials DO, is fake surgebinding and/or evoking powers from spren directly; just not with dead spren.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Shig

[Calderis he/him]

I think the answer to this is going to vary depending on what you believe Roshar's focus is. 

Many believe that the focus of Roshar's magic is spren, and in that case, a dead blade is still a Spren and so there should be someway to still access the surges through it... It would probably be pretty comicated though. 

Others (myself included) think the Focus on Roshar is bonds, and I'm that case I think that no you could not. Surgebinding is a result of the Nahel bond, which is literally the mutual bond between the surgebinder and their spren. Once the Spren is "dead" the nature of that bond has changed and should no longer be capable of expressing the surges. 

11 minutes ago, Shig said:

Edit: Also, I think thats kind of what fabrials DO, is fake surgebinding and/or evoking powers from spren directly; just not with dead spren.

Yes and no. I guess it's a semantic issue here for me. Fabrials do use spren to harness the surges, but they use them in a set manner. Surgebinding, at least in my opinion, is the ability to freely manipulate a granted surge, which fabrials aren't capable of. 

[Shig]

Yeah, I'm of the same opinion that the powers, or Focus, comes from bonds as well. I just think that it MAY be possible to fake an identity (spiritually) to match that of the original person who created the bond, at least to the point of allowing a new bond to form, much like unkeyed metalminds look for the identity of the person who filled it, and finds that anyone matches it.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Shig said:

Yeah, I'm of the same opinion that the powers, or Focus, comes from bonds as well. I just think that it MAY be possible to fake an identity (spiritually) to match that of the original person who created the bond, at least to the point of allowing a new bond to form, much like unkeyed metalminds look for the identity of the person who filled it, and finds that anyone matches it.

I disagree. I think the reason that reviving a blade is supposed to be so much harder for someone who wasn't the one to have broken the Oaths in the first place is because of a spiritual remnant of the bond itself. 

I don't think the identity alone is enough. The bond still exists and is fractured on the part of the dead spren, and it is much easier to repair those broken connections then it is to try and establish new ones with a mind that is no longer capable of thought. 

[Shig]

Just now, Calderis said:

I disagree. I think the reason that reviving a blade is supposed to be so much harder for someone who wasn't the one to have broken the Oaths in the first place is because of a spiritual remnant of the bond itself. 

I don't think the identity alone is enough. The bond still exists and is fractured on the part of the dead spren, and it is much easier to repair those broken connections then it is to try and establish new ones with a mind that is no longer capable of thought. 

Oh, I don't think it would be easy by any means. I basically think that in addition to reviving the oath, you need to appear to match as the person who broke it in the first place. Has there been any evidence of someone being able to change their spiritual identity?

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Shig said:

Has there been any evidence of someone being able to change their spiritual identity?

I think Forgery does this, but only to the extent of modifying your own, not mimicking someone else's. 

To be honest, without having something to copy their identity from, I don't think it would even be possible. You'd need a way to blank your own identity, and then some way to imprint theirs onto yourself, which would probably do some crazy things psychologically. 

Thanks for making my brain hurt

[Shig]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think Forgery does this, but only to the extent of modifying your own, not mimicking someone else's. 

To be honest, without having something to copy their identity from, I don't think it would even be possible. You'd need a way to blank your own identity, and then some way to imprint theirs onto yourself, which would probably do some crazy things psychologically. 

Thanks for making my brain hurt

So, I red a bit of the wiki on Forging, and I feel like a combination of Remembering (learning the spiritual history of the shardblade) and Soul Forging may make it possible to imitate being the original recipient of the Nahel bond. You wouldn't have to imitate everything about them, but changing that specific part of the spirit web would likely make the sword identify the Soulforged individual as the original wielder. Whether that would be enough to revive the blade is questionable, but I bet it would make it significantly easier.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Shig

[phoenix2563]

21 hours ago, Shig said:

So, I red a bit of the wiki on Forging, and I feel like a combination of Remembering (learning the spiritual history of the shardblade) and Soul Forging may make it possible to imitate being the original recipient of the Nahel bond. You wouldn't have to imitate everything about them, but changing that specific part of the spirit web would likely make the sword identify the Soulforged individual as the original wielder. Whether that would be enough to revive the blade is questionable, but I bet it would make it significantly easier.

So this would grant you the knowledge and history of the shardblade/spren itself, but would you gain enough innate knowledge of the identity of the person you are trying to imitate?  But let's say you could do this.  I'm not sure that re-writing your spiritual Identity like this (as crazy as that may be to you!) would be enough.  

The Nahel bond centers around thoughts (the Cognitive/soul).  The Spren's thoughts and the Knight's thoughts are bound together ever so tightly, and we can see this at the end of WoR when Kaladin wavers between the two promises he has made, and what it does to the bond.  Since the Connection here has its source in thoughts, I am not sure that Feruchemy would be able to "fake" this kind of Connection like it can on Scadrial, where the Connection is to something in the physical realm.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by phoenix2563

[Shig]

1 hour ago, phoenix2563 said:

So this would grant you the knowledge and history of the shardblade/spren itself, but would you gain enough innate knowledge of the identity of the person you are trying to imitate?  But let's say you could do this.  I'm not sure that re-writing your spiritual Identity like this (as crazy as that may be to you!) would be enough.  

The Nahel bond centers around thoughts (the Cognitive/soul).  The Spren's thoughts and the Knight's thoughts are bound together ever so tightly, and we can see this at the end of WoR when Kaladin wavers between the two promises he has made, and what it does to the bond.  Since the Connection here has its source in thoughts, I am not sure that Feruchemy would be able to "fake" this kind of Connection like it can on Scadrial, where the Connection is to something in the physical realm.

 

The way I understood it, it gives you insight into the spiritual web of the object you are "Remembering" which would include the bonds (each strand of the web) made. Soul Forging (Not feruchemy, I'm not totally sure how that one works yet) actually REWRITES that web, making it so that you were the original holder of that bond. It does also rewrite the person who was forged, spiritually and psychologically (which is another set of issues), and would potentially allow you to reawaken the bond. Also, we have been told that Nahel bonds can be passed down hereditarily, so it may not even need to be that complete.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Shig

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, Shig said:

Also, we have been told that Nahel bonds can be passed down hereditarily, so it may not even need to be that complete.

It is not hereditary. They can be "passed on." Meaning as with a Seon, a spren, with its consent, could be passed from parent to child. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1125#26

Quote

THE_ARCHDUKE

Could a Knight Radiant pass their Nahel bond the way Seons can be passed in Elantris?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Theoretically possible and in fact has happened (!) in previous eras.

 

[Shig]

Ah, thanks for that! I couldn't remember the WoB exactly. That does make the method a bit more inflexible, but considering how wide ranging Soul Forging is, I think it is still in the realm of possibility. That said, I don't think anything like that would happen in the cosmere, at least not with this method; it's a little too specific in scope.

[phoenix2563]

I think Soul Forging is all about changing Identity, but I don't think it can also forge Connection to the Investiture (aka spren).  See the below WoB:

Q: If Shai were to gain a Shardblade, then she gave it up, could she create an essence mark that represented the history where she still had the Blade? If she then applied the essence mark could she summon the Shardblade or a copy of it?

A: So, um, doing that sort of thing, like rewriting herself even to be an Allomancer., or something like this....this is possible, but, in order to gain the Investiture she wants to have, she will have to input that much in Investiture, which her current magic system is not capable of doing. Okay? Alright, so, rewrite so that I have a Shardblade would require some sort of hacking of her magic system, which is currently impossible to her in her current situation.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1099

[Shig]

2 minutes ago, phoenix2563 said:

I think Soul Forging is all about changing Identity, but I don't think it can also forge Connection to the Investiture (aka spren).  See the below WoB:

Q: If Shai were to gain a Shardblade, then she gave it up, could she create an essence mark that represented the history where she still had the Blade? If she then applied the essence mark could she summon the Shardblade or a copy of it?

A: So, um, doing that sort of thing, like rewriting herself even to be an Allomancer., or something like this....this is possible, but, in order to gain the Investiture she wants to have, she will have to input that much in Investiture, which her current magic system is not capable of doing. Okay? Alright, so, rewrite so that I have a Shardblade would require some sort of hacking of her magic system, which is currently impossible to her in her current situation.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1099

Ah, neat. I'm actually glad to see that, because Soul Forging seemed a BIT too powerful for my taste, especially compared to the other magic systems. Flexible is cool, but flexible and potent causes issues.