Nicrosil Feruchemy and the Bands

[Orithiya he/him]

So, can I post a theory here, or what? (Just warning, like 60% of this is gonna be spoilers for Bands of Mourning so go read it if you haven't.) So everyone- let's talk about the Bands. Specifically the nicrosil portion. I think we can figure out what it does from watching Wax and Marasi use them. So when Wax takes the Bands, he can punch through pure rock with just allomancy alone, and drags an airship out of the sky. This obviously isn't normal allomancy or duralumin enhanced allomancy. We know that because marasi gets all of the metals off the guards. There wouldn't have been any duralumin. It's completely useless if you're just a misting. So he's doing all of that with just steel and iron which should be impossible- but wait! WoB is here to save the day! (I don't actually have this WoB but pshhh who needs correctly cited sources.) So I remember reading somewhere that Sanderson built into the magic systems of scadrial ways to enhance each other- allomancy boosts feruchemy through compounding, and feruchemy boosts allomancy by uuh....

the WoB didn't really say. But there has to be some way cuz the great Sanderson said so. So I looked through the metals chart and the only metal that really fits isn't nicrosil- which stores investiture (any cosmere magic). So we can tell how it works from Wax's point of view! Obviously it can give you the ability to burn metals or tap them (see: Wax burning iron or tapping zinc) but it can also affect how much power you can squeeze out of metal in allomancy. So that's how nicrosil feruchemy works! Spend time with weakened investiture (presumably) and you can tap to make it stronger. (Am I the only one that thinks coinshot-soulbearers would be terrifying? They would shred everything or throw tanks!) Any corrections or anything?

[Pagerunner he/him]

No, that sounds about right, although I'm not convinced it's reverse compounding. There was a ton of magical ability stored in the Bands, and Wax could tap it at a greater than 1x pull rate (the strength of ten grinches, plus two), so that's how he could get so strong. It's similar to how Vin and the Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds; they had multiple peoples' worth of Bronze abilities, so they were stronger in those metals than they had any right to be.

It's worth noting that the power doesn't come from the metal itself - metal is a key that unlocks power to come directly from Preservation. So, yes, stronger people can get more out of the same amount of metal, but it's not like their bodies are better Allomatic juicers (yech). Burning metal is like turning a handle, but the Allomancer's strength is the size of the door.

I'm not sure that's a hack, in the same way compounding is a hack. That's a way to strengthen Allomancy using Feruchemy; compounding is combining part of Allomancy (the source of power, coming from Preservation) with part of Feruchemy (the manifestations of power, normally drawn from power you've stored from your own self). I'd expect reverse compounding would follow that same pattern, letting you somehow take Feruchemical stores and manifest them as Allomantic power. It might accomplish a similar effect, letting you power Allomancy with far more than you usually can, but it would be a different mechanism than either Feruchemical Nicrosil or traditional Hemalurgy. But a good thought!

[Spoolofwhool]

I agree, increased allomantic strength by compounding the tap of the allomancy from the nicrosilmind. My only concern is that as we've seen with other steel allomancy users, increased steel allomancy ability doesn't increase the strength of your push, it just increases precision. I guess then that Wax and Vin have done what they did my subdividing the metal target into a lot of individual segments, each with their own metal line, each one pushed with the same strength, which results with a net increased push. 

[Orithiya he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I agree, increased allomantic strength by compounding the tap of the allomancy from the nicrosilmind. My only concern is that as we've seen with other steel allomancy users, increased steel allomancy ability doesn't increase the strength of your push, it just increases precision. I guess then that Wax and Vin have done what they did my subdividing the metal target into a lot of individual segments, each with their own metal line, each one pushed with the same strength, which results with a net increased push. 

In the first trilogy isn't there mention that Elend is an unusually strong allomacer, and that's why he surprised the inquisitor with the extra strong push? He is more closely connected to Preservation through his spiritweb. So he can get more "allomancy juice" from the metal. IIRC, there's a WoB that being a steel/iron savant lets you separate metals into several parts and create a steel bubble. Separating a piece of metal into separate parts would actually get you the same force, I thought- the smaller the anchor, the weaker the push. Also, good points pagerunner 

Edited November 8, 2016 by PizzaTardis
Forgot pagerunner

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, PizzaTardis said:

In the first trilogy isn't there mention that Elend is an unusually strong allomacer, and that's why he surprised the inquisitor with the extra strong push? He is more closely connected to Preservation through his spiritweb. So he can get more "allomancy juice" from the metal. IIRC, there's a WoB that being a steel/iron savant lets you separate metals into several parts and create a steel bubble. Separating a piece of metal into separate parts would actually get you the same force, I thought- the smaller the anchor, the weaker the push.

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. The size of the object doesn't change how hard you push. Mass only matters for determining who is moved. While it is true that the Elend was stronger and seemed to be pushing stronger, they never really explained it. However, in other cases of people with increased steel allomantic ability, we've had a clearer breakdown of how their power was increased. Zane and Wax have increased their steel allomancy, either through hemalurgy or savantism, and the effect on their powers was an increase in precision, not actual pushing power. Since chances are that a hemalurgic amplification of allomancy is similar to a feruchemy compounded tap, I think relating them is fine. As such, I would say that that is what happened to Elend in general and Vin when she tapped duralumin, they were just creating more lines of pushing, though it wasn't shown.

[Orithiya he/him]

The precision part makes sense but I thought mass did matter. Which is why it was such a feat for Wax to push on trace metals in the boulder and such. Also when taking Steris for a ride with steel jumping shenanigans he notes that the iron spine building and tiekel tower are great anchors because the girders are so large...

I probably sound like a broken record when talking about that but that's just how I interpreted it when I first read through era 1 so it's pretty hard to change that assumption

[Yata he/him]

actually @PizzaTardis the "juice" for metal is the same for everyone...Stronger allomancer may simply burn metal to faster rate to get more "juice per second"

[Orithiya he/him]

I swear there was a WoB floating around that said metal was just the way the power is accessed, and different allomancers get differing amounts of preservation power. If you're right this entire theory needs to be rewritten and I'm lazy... where does we get the sheer amount of metal necessary to pull an airship out of the sky? Blargh...

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, PizzaTardis said:

The precision part makes sense but I thought mass did matter. Which is why it was such a feat for Wax to push on trace metals in the boulder and such. Also when taking Steris for a ride with steel jumping shenanigans he notes that the iron spine building and tiekel tower are great anchors because the girders are so large...

He had the precision to actually see the steel lines in the boulder of the trace metals. Similar to how Inquistors had the precision to see the trace metals in everything in order to see. I'd say they were good anchors because he could have lots of points to push from, so direction wasn't an issue. On normal building, he probably only can push against metal ornamentation.

13 minutes ago, PizzaTardis said:

I swear there was a WoB floating around that said metal was just the way the power is accessed, and different allomancers get differing amounts of preservation power. If you're right this entire theory needs to be rewritten and I'm lazy... where does we get the sheer amount of metal necessary to pull an airship out of the sky? Blargh...

We had a discussion about this some time ago with an inconclusive result. It does seem weighed towards what Yata thinks, but we don't know for certain.

 

 

[Orithiya he/him]

Huh. Well, I'm gonna go rewrite everything I know about steelpushing and ironpulling... again... jeez, this is a complicated magic system

[Spoolofwhool]

29 minutes ago, PizzaTardis said:

Huh. Well, I'm gonna go rewrite everything I know about steelpushing and ironpulling... again... jeez, this is a complicated magic system

I mean, mass does matter for how the object actually moves with regards to actual kinetics. I'm sorry if I made it look like mass was completely independent. I meant to say that mass was independent of the force applied. Anchor acceleration would still be dependent on mass of said anchor. 

[Yata he/him]

Sorry yesterday I was just to put myself to sleep and I had not enough WillPower to search this wild WoB (it's not on theoryland last time I checked). Here

Quote

Q: Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently?

A: Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdraw

 

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

Sorry yesterday I was just to put myself to sleep and I had not enough WillPower to search this wild WoB (it's not on theoryland last time I checked). Here

 

Thanks Yata.

[YungDankBlast he/him]

I just posted a similar idea of using this Nicrosil Feruchemy as a way to compound Allomancy along with other possible compounding theories. 

On 11/8/2016 at 8:34 AM, Pagerunner said:

I'm not sure that's a hack, in the same way compounding is a hack. That's a way to strengthen Allomancy using Feruchemy; compounding is combining part of Allomancy (the source of power, coming from Preservation) with part of Feruchemy (the manifestations of power, normally drawn from power you've stored from your own self). I'd expect reverse compounding would follow that same pattern, letting you somehow take Feruchemical stores and manifest them as Allomantic power. It might accomplish a similar effect, letting you power Allomancy with far more than you usually can, but it would be a different mechanism than either Feruchemical Nicrosil or traditional Hemalurgy. But a good thought!

I would argue that for the original form of compounding, one uses one magic system (Allomancy), in order to enhance another magic system (Feruchemy).  While you refer to this interaction as a "hack", it is really just the two magic systems working how they usually do, simply interacting with each other.  In the same way, this form also uses the normal functions of Feruchemy, and it adds Allomancy, enhancing the Allomancy as a result.  I would also say that this is a way to take Feruchemical stores and manifest them as Allomancy.

On 11/8/2016 at 8:34 AM, Pagerunner said:

It's similar to how Vin and the Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds; they had multiple peoples' worth of Bronze abilities, so they were stronger in those metals than they had any right to be.

I think this is an entirely separate form of compounding.

*Side Note: Couldn't Wax simply have increased his weight to pull down the ship?  It wasn't too heavy to begin with because of the devices that made the ship lighter.  And for the rock, I think the increased steel power let him push on the trace metals, but mass determines the force of pushes and pulls

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, CayJoBla said:

*Side Note: Couldn't Wax simply have increased his weight to pull down the ship?  It wasn't too heavy to begin with because of the devices that made the ship lighter.  And for the rock, I think the increased steel power let him push on the trace metals, but mass determines the force of pushes and pulls

Yes but you may for example:

Push on the Ship while you pull on the earth below...in the end you may use the world as anchor.

Of course the "ship" is really lighter than its size suggest and Wax may tap tons of weight to balance more the weight issue

[Savanorn he/him]

On 11/9/2016 at 3:55 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

I agree, increased allomantic strength by compounding the tap of the allomancy from the nicrosilmind. My only concern is that as we've seen with other steel allomancy users, increased steel allomancy ability doesn't increase the strength of your push, it just increases precision. I guess then that Wax and Vin have done what they did my subdividing the metal target into a lot of individual segments, each with their own metal line, each one pushed with the same strength, which results with a net increased push. 

Hey Spool, 

I made a topic on this, but suffice it to say I disagree with the bolded part, I believe it does increase precision (all else being equal) but a stronger allomancer can simply generate more force in a given moment.

Elend is the best example of this, as you note, as he's notably a bit clumsy with the use of his powers, but is also notably very powerful in terms of raw power. 

Vin also is a fairly good example, as she can draw a lot more from her metals than people expect. 

Also, as near as I can tell, what you are saying in the final part ought to be impossible. Like, by getting stronger you could affect things you couldn't before, or you can effect those things you could before more strongly, but subdiving a target ought to result in several smaller target, which would mean they were weaker for Pull/Pushing. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Savanorn

[Yata he/him]

On 8/11/2016 at 7:21 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

However, in other cases of people with increased steel allomantic ability, we've had a clearer breakdown of how their power was increased. Zane and Wax have increased their steel allomancy, either through hemalurgy or savantism, and the effect on their powers was an increase in precision, not actual pushing power.

Actually in all the books I had the idea that Allomantic Strenght in the context of Steel/Iron is a factor both about "how much kinetic energy is added between the allomancer and the anchor/target" and "find amount of metal to use the power"

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Savanorn said:

Hey Spool, 

I made a topic on this, but suffice it to say I disagree with the bolded part, I believe it does increase precision (all else being equal) but a stronger allomancer can simply generate more force in a given moment.

Elend is the best example of this, as you note, as he's notably a bit clumsy with the use of his powers, but is also notably very powerful in terms of raw power. 

Vin also is a fairly good example, as she can draw a lot more from her metals than people expect. 

Also, as near as I can tell, what you are saying in the final part ought to be impossible. Like, by getting stronger you could affect things you couldn't before, or you can effect those things you could before more strongly, but subdiving a target ought to result in several smaller target, which would mean they were weaker for Pull/Pushing. 

The thing is though, I don't think the size of the target affects how strongly you push it. As far as I can tell, forces have been consistent on every object, with each object moving at different accelerations due to F=ma. I don't recall anything from the books which indicates that this would be false, but if you have a quote, that would be great.

In any case, the reason why I made this argument was because while it's true that it said that Elend was just stronger, it never gave a real explanation in what way. On the other hand, in cases where we know someone to have had increased allomantic strength, such as Zane through hemalurgy or Wax through Savantism, we know for sure their increased strength manifested as an increased precision. 

[Pagerunner he/him]

6 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

I just posted a similar idea of using this Nicrosil Feruchemy as a way to compound Allomancy along with other possible compounding theories. 

I would argue that for the original form of compounding, one uses one magic system (Allomancy), in order to enhance another magic system (Feruchemy).  While you refer to this interaction as a "hack", it is really just the two magic systems working how they usually do, simply interacting with each other.  In the same way, this form also uses the normal functions of Feruchemy, and it adds Allomancy, enhancing the Allomancy as a result.  I would also say that this is a way to take Feruchemical stores and manifest them as Allomancy.

I think this is an entirely separate form of compounding.

Brandon himself has referred to compounding as a hack, as powering one using another, which is why I chose that word. There is a 'normal' interaction possible, like burning pewter and then storing the extra strength in a pewter metalmind. It's possible, but what's the point? Compounding is more powerful; however, it's still a way to get a big Feruchemical boost from your Allomantic powers. Compounding has to do with the 'how,' while this proposed method of compounding is literally the only thing a Nicrosil Ferring could do.

[Savanorn he/him]

26 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The thing is though, I don't think the size of the target affects how strongly you push it. As far as I can tell, forces have been consistent on every object, with each object moving at different accelerations due to F=ma. I don't recall anything from the books which indicates that this would be false, but if you have a quote, that would be great.

In any case, the reason why I made this argument was because while it's true that it said that Elend was just stronger, it never gave a real explanation in what way. On the other hand, in cases where we know someone to have had increased allomantic strength, such as Zane through hemalurgy or Wax through Savantism, we know for sure their increased strength manifested as an increased precision. 

To clarify something, part of my point is that greater strength manifests as just that. Getting stronger can  ans doea make an allomancer more precise, but it can simply make them more powerful.

Savantism has been referred to as a qualitative and quantitative difference. So with savantism, you get stronger, but that's not the (only) reason you get more precise. You get more precise because using so much of a metal has changed you and made you better able to use that metal. 

As for Elend, we see how his power works; he is capable of soothing more people at any given time. When he pushes on things that would take less powerful allomancers duralumin they move. Rather importantly, I don't think he's ever more precise than Vin despite being vastly stronger and we have PoV chapters and, unless you can provide quotes, we never see his powers working the way you seem to think they would. Like... we don't see him see a coin as three or four different lines when he flies further on them. He doesn't mention pushing on multiple lines on the same object.

As for quotes, for force and anchors, I posted them in the thread I made, but try Vin's earliest days. When she's jumping the luthadel wall with Kelsier, the blue line gets steadily thinner and she decelerates as she gets further away, before she finally stops.  This implies a thiner line is, at some point, less capable of generating force. Realise I'm assuming the key factor here is line width. 

But realise that with the mechanics of Pushing strength is usually less important than weight (it is, afterall, why Kelsier noted Vin's strength and the Inquisitor didn't expect Elend's, there's not naturally a lot of variance according to Kel) and occaisons where this is important are rare. Most Coinshots tend to jump from anchor to anchor to maximise speed or agility.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

Fair points there. I revise my opinion on the matter.

[Savanorn he/him]

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Fair points there. I revise my opinion on the matter.

Wow. 

This has never happened to me before. That's pretty graceful. Thank you?

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

Wow. 

This has never happened to me before. That's pretty graceful. Thank you?

Not a problem. You presented a good case on the matter, and I will admit that even before you did, I felt that my explanation of it just increasing precision was lacking.

[YungDankBlast he/him]

On 11/11/2016 at 4:47 AM, Pagerunner said:

Brandon himself has referred to compounding as a hack, as powering one using another, which is why I chose that word. There is a 'normal' interaction possible, like burning pewter and then storing the extra strength in a pewter metalmind. It's possible, but what's the point? Compounding is more powerful; however, it's still a way to get a big Feruchemical boost from your Allomantic powers. Compounding has to do with the 'how,' while this proposed method of compounding is literally the only thing a Nicrosil Ferring could do.

I promise I'm not trying to get into a fight with you, but here is how I see it.

When you use Allomancy, you burn a certain metal and gain the investiture associated with that metal from Preservation.  You have the ability to burn metals invested with Feruchemical stores, but this is not the original purpose of Allomancy.

Similarly, Nicrosil Feruchemy has the ability to store Allomantic investitures.  However, I believe the original purpose of Nicrosil Feruchemy was to boost the strength of Feruchemical Investiture (for example, you store, say, steel Feruchemy Investiture, so that you can later store speed at faster rates).  In this way, by using Nicrosil Feruchemy with Allomantic Investitures, you are mixing the two systems in the same way as the known form of Compounding, which is why I would personally refer to this as Compounding.

But we can agree to disagree if you don't agree...