Shallan and vast wealth of knowledge

[bdoble97]

Sure I love the epic battles and cool unique things about Epic Fantasy but one of my favorite things is The Bookworm or the scholar who goes deep within the bowels of huge masive library looking through books that have not been look through in a millennia puzzling the pieces together from the books to get the answers that everyone been looking for. Urithiru should be filled with such libraries like this an arm with a army of Scholars Shallan will hopefully be spending some quality time looking through the ancient history of the Knights Radiant.  

[manukos he/him]

yup...

[Kered he/him]

This opinion is not a popular one, but Shallan is my least favorite character, and the most stagnant to me. The only time she is interesting is in Kaladin's chapters and when she interacts with him. My favorite scholar is Sigzil, just for the fact that he puts a unique twist on the scholar stereotype.

[HonorIsDead he/him]

4 minutes ago, KereDerek said:

This opinion is not a popular one, but Shallan is my least favorite character, and the most stagnant to me. The only time she is interesting is in Kaladin's chapters and when she interacts with him. My favorite scholar is Sigzil, just for the fact that he puts a unique twist on the scholar stereotype.

Have to say that I agree, most of the time I find myself cursing her for her stupidity, dishonesty and Brashness. She's a necessary character but I always find myself disinterested in her parts or to angry to pay too much attention.  

[bdoble97]

11 minutes ago, KereDerek said:

This opinion is not a popular one, but Shallan is my least favorite character, and the most stagnant to me. The only time she is interesting is in Kaladin's chapters and when she interacts with him. My favorite scholar is Sigzil, just for the fact that he puts a unique twist on the scholar stereotype.

I have to disagree with you she's one of my favorite characters. Her sceans with Kaladin  just make her even better in my opinion. 

[Kered he/him]

 

Just now, bdoble97 said:

I have to disagree with you she's one of my favorite characters. Her sceans with Kaladin  just make her even better in my opinion. 

I feel her scenes with Kaladin are amazing, but other than that I struggle through her chapters. She's like reading Egwene from wheel of time in the first 6 books. 

[HonorIsDead he/him]

Just now, bdoble97 said:

I have to disagree with you she's one of my favorite characters. Her sceans with Kaladin  just make her even better in my opinion. 

WARNING WoR spoiler

To each his own, I just can't stand when she makes decisions like joining the Ghostbloods or stealing jasnas thingy ma bob (sorry i'm in a rush and don't know the name) when there are clearly far better solutions

and I agree her scene in the chasm was amazing

[bdoble97]

8 minutes ago, KereDerek said:

 

I feel her scenes with Kaladin are amazing, but other than that I struggle through her chapters. She's like reading Egwene from wheel of time in the first 6 books. 

See I loved Egwene also. I always picture her as the actress that played Lana Lane from Smallville. Im reading Warbraker right now and I'm having trouble with Vivenna at times. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by bdoble97

[Massik he/him]

24 minutes ago, HonorIsDead said:

WARNING WoR spoiler

To each his own, I just can't stand when she makes decisions like joining the Ghostbloods or stealing jasnas thingy ma bob (sorry i'm in a rush and don't know the name) when there are clearly far better solutions

and I agree her scene in the chasm was amazing

She's joining the Ghostbloods as a spy, really.  She wants to see how far the rabbit hole goes. She has an inquisitive nature, her father was somehow involved with them, and her mentor is believed to be dead at their hand.

Also, what better options does she have to get a soulcaster than stealing one, if you wouldn't mind elaborating?  In the context of her being extremely sheltered when that plan is hatched, her father dead, and her family one step away, I can't see any options.  

Edited October 30, 2016 by Massik

[AnAirSickLowLander]

I agree that it can be a little boring reading shallan's chapters but I do like her character.  Re reading the books has made me appreciate Shallan a lot more because I knew what to expect (not as fast pace) and she really does have a lot to offer to the story.  She does make rash and bad decisions in TWoK but you can see her character development through all of it.  By the end of WoR she becomes a very interesting and key character to the story.  Also, without her, Kaladin would still be a huge turd with the chip on his shoulder and might not have said the third oath.  The respect he gained for her in the chasm helped make him a better person and personally I think it helped humbled him enough to really consider saving Elhokar.  

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Massik said:

She's joining the Ghostbloods as a spy, really.  She wants to see how far the rabbit hole goes. She has an inquisitive nature, her father was somehow involved with them, and her mentor is believed to be dead at their hand.

Also, what better options does she have to get a soulcaster than stealing one, if you wouldn't mind elaborating?  In the context of her being extremely sheltered when that plan is hatched, her father dead, and her family one step away, I can't see any options.  

I agree with you %100  her scenes with the ghost Bloods were very exciting for me she's like a undercover investigator trying to infiltrate the mob.

[Rasarr she/her]

I must admit, I'm one of the people who dislike Shallan - not exactly because of her decisions, but because of her dishonesty and lies, which, considering her entire personality is based on those two, makes it even harder for me to like. I'd add that I didn't like her interactions with Kaladin one bit, as they were a very cliche set-up for a "they hate each other! but now they love each other!" plotline coloured with cringe (like the boot theft early on, and their shouting match later), but I do like her a lot more during her scenes with Adolin. They're a cute couple, IMO, and I think that when interacting with him, she's more true to herself - and I do like what I see of Shallan there far more than the personality she usually puts on. And I have to agree, her Ghostblooding scenes are fun to read.

This gives me hope for her story with Oathbringer, and bdoble97 has a really good point! With Urithiru's libraries available for her, she's bound to find something interesting.

[bdoble97]

4 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

I must admit, I'm one of the people who dislike Shallan - not exactly because of her decisions, but because of her dishonesty and lies, which, considering her entire personality is based on those two, makes it even harder for me to like. I'd add that I didn't like her interactions with Kaladin one bit, as they were a very cliche set-up for a "they hate each other! but now they love each other!" plotline coloured with cringe (like the boot theft early on, and their shouting match later), but I do like her a lot more during her scenes with Adolin. They're a cute couple, IMO, and I think that when interacting with him, she's more true to herself - and I do like what I see of Shallan there far more than the personality she usually puts on. And I have to agree, her Ghostblooding scenes are fun to read.

This gives me hope for her story with Oathbringer, and bdoble97 has a really good point! With Urithiru's libraries available for her, she's bound to find something interesting.

I also was kind of upset when you realize that Shallan and Kaladin may start liking each other. When when I'm reading the book Im like NO  just NO don't have a love triangle. I really like Adolin alot and dont want to see there be a srupid love triangle. The library of Urithiru should be somthing grand in size. I'm really hoping that those books that give us hence to the foundation of the knights radiance secret weapons ancient ancient technology that has been long forgotten and even into the cosmere itself 

[HonorIsDead he/him]

3 hours ago, Massik said:

She's joining the Ghostbloods as a spy, really.  She wants to see how far the rabbit hole goes. She has an inquisitive nature, her father was somehow involved with them, and her mentor is believed to be dead at their hand.

Also, what better options does she have to get a soulcaster than stealing one, if you wouldn't mind elaborating?  In the context of her being extremely sheltered when that plan is hatched, her father dead, and her family one step away, I can't see any options.  

she did to begin with, but at the end of WoR it just seemed like a really unnecessary risk to take

even jasnah offered a better one after 2 seconds of knowing the issue, she could have asked for help, simple as that 

2 hours ago, Rasarr said:

her Ghostblooding scenes are fun to read.

yah, they are, but I find myself cringing the whole time, knowing that she is 100% gonna mess up at some point and lose the trust of both the KR and the GBs, its to easy to make a mistake in the scenario she put herself in. 

2 hours ago, Rasarr said:

They're a cute couple

yah, they are a cute couple, and I don't think there will be an Adolin, Kaladin, Shallan love triangle, it could NEVER work, their KR orders have never gotten along for a reason, which should be evident in their drastically different personalities

2 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

The library of Urithiru should be somthing grand in size. I'm really hoping that those books that give us hence to the foundation of the knights radiance secret weapons ancient ancient technology that has been long forgotten and even into the cosmere itself 

I agree, the information in the library (or libraries) will be important and probably very interesting, but I think it should and will be Jasnah or Renarin who does the discovery there, as she is the real scholar and well, I don't really know what Renarin is but I know there are books involved

the secrets of the cosmere seems like a bit of a stretch, but the secrets of their world, the Highstorm, the shattering of the plains, possibly even the reason why odium chose to come after honor and cultivation, might be avalible



P.S. Sorry if I sound argumentative, I just wanted to state my opinion and play devils advocate, which are both important while theorising

[bdoble97]

51 minutes ago, HonorIsDead said:

she did to begin with, but at the end of WoR it just seemed like a really unnecessary risk to take

even jasnah offered a better one after 2 seconds of knowing the issue, she could have asked for help, simple as that 

yah, they are, but I find myself cringing the whole time, knowing that she is 100% gonna mess up at some point and lose the trust of both the KR and the GBs, its to easy to make a mistake in the scenario she put herself in. 

yah, they are a cute couple, and I don't think there will be an Adolin, Kaladin, Shallan love triangle, it could NEVER work, their KR orders have never gotten along for a reason, which should be evident in their drastically different personalities

I agree, the information in the library (or libraries) will be important and probably very interesting, but I think it should and will be Jasnah or Renarin who does the discovery there, as she is the real scholar and well, I don't really know what Renarin is but I know there are books involved

the secrets of the cosmere seems like a bit of a stretch, but the secrets of their world, the Highstorm, the shattering of the plains, possibly even the reason why odium chose to come after honor and cultivation, might be avalible



P.S. Sorry if I sound argumentative, I just wanted to state my opinion and play devils advocate, which are both important while theorising

I forget the giys name from the Ghostbloods but didn't he say that the ghostbloods had Shallan's brothers. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me that was a blatant threat to her. And she doesn't know the extent of their abilities. 

The libary or libraries I would love for Jasnah to have a larg part in book 3 exploreing the libraries. But I also would like to have a section of book 3 about Jasnah and Wit  travel to The shattered Plains and then locating the oathgate to get to Urithiru.  I think that Jasnah and Wit conversation would be really funny to listen to them go back and forth.  The idea of them finding out secrets of the cosmere. What i ment by that was that they could get littel hints that there is more then just Roshar.

[Massik he/him]

The ghostbloods being a threat her family (the whole reason she cooks up her plan), having killed (as far as she knows) Jasnah, Yalb and the rest of the ship's crew seems like pretty good motivation to see things through to me.  

As for the soulcaster and asking Jasnah for help.  She was much too intimidated my Jasnah to ask for such a thing and felt guilty for what she percieved as her only option to save her brothers.  Jasnah isn't the most approachable person.   Jasnah isn't even aware of Shallans situaton until Shallan confesses to the swap.  

[Guest]

I have said it in the past and I will say it again: I like Shallan. She might not be my favorite character (this would be Adolin), but she is a character I find interesting and I wouldn't part away with. This post is, I believe, right on time as ever since the movie deal announcement, I have lost the count of posts I have read arguing the upcoming movie should feature mighty Kaladin and only him with perhaps Dalinar, but Shallan? Who cares about Shallan, she is boring anyway, she isn't saving the day, she isn't the brooding dark under-dog hero who talks in grumps and shrugs the fantasy world has used us to root for.

I love Shallan. I love her because she lies. Of all characters only she understands the truth might be more harmful than a lie, not only for them, but for her. She jungles endlessly as to how much she can confide into others without losing what little agency she has managed to grasp so far. She couldn't tell Jasnah Kholin the truth from the get go and hope for help. Why would she? Why would princess Jasnah Kholin give a damnation about the plights of a scion of a minor house in Jah Keved? Why would she even lift one finger to help her? And how was Shallan supposed to guess she would?

She couldn't. Worst, Jasnah Kholin presents herself as a cold emotionless individual who ruthlessly assassinates thugs in a street... What was there here for Shallan to hope for help providing she tried the truth? Nothing. I would also like to point out Shallan did not willingly want to steal the soulcaster from Jasnah, but made her decision after the street thugs event thinking Jasnah probably deserved to be stolen from. She made a mistake. She paid for it. She was cast out and it only was the revelation she was a surgebinder too which drew Jasnah back onto her case.

Did I wish for Shallan to come true? Oh yes, I did, but I understand she couldn't and I like her for it. I like her because it makes her gray, grayish than Kaladin whom never seems to be able to do any wrong. Whom even when he does wrong, it is only to allow him to shine even more and deeds of intense goodness... Shallan doesn't have Kaladin's star power or heroic save: she is just a teenage girl trying to steer her boat into an unknown sea using the only tools she ever had, her wits (not as good as she wished it were) and her manipulation (which are quite bad when all summed up together). Hence she lies. She lies to everyone she meets because quite frankly were she to tell the truth, what hope does she truly have to find a helping hand?

So all in all, I have enjoyed Shallan's character journey. I have loved to see her morph from the shy country girl to the audacious one who demands kisses from surprisingly shy prince Adolin. It fits her character, all through her chapters, I felt she was becoming herself and herself isn't meek, but bold. She will take a chance, she will gamble and she will lie if it helps get nearer to her goal, but she means no harm to those she cares for. I have no idea where the Ghostblood story arc is going to. I'll admit it isn't my favorite arc as I am not personally fond of spying arcs, but I do not, for one second, believe Shallan lied her way into their ranks. It will come back to bite her, this intricate set of lies she has set upon herself. 

And what of Adolin? The one person she might have deceived the most. She made him fall in love with her, but she hasn't told him half the truth. I do not blame her for it, she had her reasons, but it will have consequences and I find it interesting. I find her interesting because everything around her seems to hang by such a tiny thread, I always worry about when it is going to give up. I worry about the collateral damage she might cause, not because she wants to, but because she had to lie. Still, I have loved her dates with Adolin. They were genuine even if neither told each other the whole truth. On the reverse, I have hated her interactions with Kaladin because they were convenient, carefully plotted to happen just to create havoc. They weren't genuine, I felt they were forced. So yeah, I do hope for interesting development in the future.

I thus find Shallan to be a great character. I sure hope part of her story arc will be unraveling a few more truths about the Radiants, doing something with the Ghostblood and her family and probably being at odds with Adolin who'll think he just doesn't deserve anything, be it love, respect and/or acceptance. How his story so carefully ends up mirroring Shallan's is just delightful.

[Massik he/him]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

I have said it in the past and I will say it again: I like Shallan. She might not be my favorite character (this would be Adolin), but she is a character I find interesting and I wouldn't part away with. This post is, I believe, right on time as ever since the movie deal announcement, I have lost the count of posts I have read arguing the upcoming movie should feature mighty Kaladin and only him with perhaps Dalinar, but Shallan? Who cares about Shallan, she is boring anyway, she isn't saving the day, she isn't the brooding dark under-dog hero who talks in grumps and shrugs the fantasy world has used us to root for.

16 minutes ago, maxal said:

 

See, I dunno how people can say she isn't important.  She helps Kaladin progress, but what's more, she finds and opens the oath gates, saving everyone on the plains from the ever storm.

[Kered he/him]

I never said she was unimportant, I just struggle through her chapters compared to everyone else's. She's not a badly written character at all, but I just don't like the pacing or the directions her choices has taken her. 

 I think in most series, for me anyway, there is always that one character that just irritates you to no end due to the choices she makes and the way they act and withhold in dialogue. Doesn't mean they're a bad character, arguably them pulling that reaction is a great sign, but it does mean they can be annoying. I understand she furthers the plot where other characters can and she's set up some awesome scenes in the book, but that doesn't change the fact that I find her boring. 

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, KereDerek said:

I never said she was unimportant, I just struggle through her chapters compared to everyone else's. She's not a badly written character at all, but I just don't like the pacing or the directions her choices has taken her. 

 I think in most series, for me anyway, there is always that one character that just irritates you to no end due to the choices she makes and the way they act and withhold in dialogue. Doesn't mean they're a bad character, arguably them pulling that reaction is a great sign, but it does mean they can be annoying. I understand she furthers the plot where other characters can and she's set up some awesome scenes in the book, but that doesn't change the fact that I find her boring. 

I understand what you are saying. But I love her. Love it when she is talking to pattern.  The only character that I have not really like so far is Lift. But thwn in my reread I like her a lot more than I did my first time around.

[Kered he/him]

6 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

I understand what you are saying. But I love her. Love it when she is talking to pattern.  The only character that I have not really like so far is Lift. But thwn in my reread I like her a lot more than I did my first time around.

Yeah it took me a reread to appreciate Lift as well. Didn't like how she treated "voidbringer" at first lol. 

[Argent he/him]

*sigh*

I feel it's impossible to talk about Shallan these days without the conversation turning to who likes her and who doesn't. She might be a polarizing character (though I personally fail to see how anyone can dislike her), but do we need to derail every other thread about her?

[HonorIsDead he/him]

3 minutes ago, Argent said:

*sigh*

I feel it's impossible to talk about Shallan these days without the conversation turning to who likes her and who doesn't. She might be a polarizing character (though I personally fail to see how anyone can dislike her), but do we need to derail every other thread about her?

very well, I had a reply but i'll move this back to the topic

 I feel that shallan isn't really going to do all that much in the library, sure she'll start looking, but things are too hectic for her, she has to deal with the GBs, be one of the only KR around at HQ when the everstorm fully hits the world, she needs to stay in relation with Adolin and practice entering shadesmar, there's just too much for her to do, I think she'll only have a brief time in the library, either near the end to find the answer to some great problem, or in the beginning before she gets distracted, I think BS will save the real investigation for Jasnah or at least for a later book, maybe book four, it seems too early for them to learn any REALLY valuable information