Proto-radiant Theory

[antgrgmn]

So, what if proto-radiants have to be broken, or as I think is a better term "cracked", because in order for their spren to bond with them, they have to have some kind of damage in the spiritual or cognitive realms? That way, their spren could kinda "fill in" those cracks. This would make it not only a bond in a mental sense, but something more concrete. What do you guys think?

[maxal]

I think we put way too much emphasis onto the "breaking" part of the requirement. As soon as someone has had hardships, people start to try to sort him/her into a given order. My personal understanding is it takes more than being "broken" to bond a spren, a lot more than that.

[thegatorgirl00]

Radiant a need to have cracks in their spirit web for the spren to fill. What it takes to become cracked is not fully clear. I believe that most people in the Cosmere are cracked enough to facilitate the bond, aside from babies and some very sheltered children. 

[antgrgmn]

@thegatorgirl00 do you have a WoB or something similar for that?

[thegatorgirl00]

I found the WoB I was think of.

Quote

Interview: Oct 14th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Brookline

AndrewStirlingMacDonald

Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well, so, for many of the Cosmere magics to work, you have to, um, it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? Sometimes you ram it in by spiking someone else's soul and ripping off a piece and sticking it into yours. Ah, sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Um, sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in.

Tags

investiture, spiritweb cracks,

 

[Eccentric Hero]

I think that Knights Radiant need to be quite exceptionally broken.

Quote

"I'm not some glorious knight of ancient days. I'm a broken man. Do you hear me, Syl? I'm broken."
She zipped up to him and whispered, "That’s what they all were, silly"

 

It's definitely more than how broken one needs to be for allomancy.

 

Of course, you also have to have the right temperament in addition to being broken.

[thegatorgirl00]

15 minutes ago, Eccentric Hero said:

I think that Knights Radiant need to be quite exceptionally broken.

 

It's definitely more than how broken one needs to be for allomancy.

 

Of course, you also have to have the right temperament in addition to being broken.

i think that the WoB seems to suggest the opposite of this. The Nahel bond makes it easier for the magic to get in than with other magic systems.

The ancient Rosharians were living through a cycle of constant wars against the Voidbringers that decimated the population. Anyone living in a constant state of war would be extremely broken, but that doesn't mean it was required to be that extreme for the bond to form.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Eccentric Hero said:

I think that Knights Radiant need to be quite exceptionally broken.

First sorry about the double post, the reply thing wouldn't let me do anything unless I clicked "Submit reply".

So, I meant to say I disagree with this statement. It is based on Kaladin's own personal experience which was so terrible, it borderlines on being implausible. If the requirement to be a Radiant is to witness your brother being unjustly sent to war, have you abandon your life prospects to follow him, watch him die, become a squad-leader who's sole purpose is to protect other boys, kill a shardbearer, refuse the Shards, watch his men being slaughter, being sold into slavery, live a year of misery before ending up as bridgeman, then there wouldn't be any Radiant in this world except for a very rare few.

If being exceptionnally broken was the requirement, then neither Renarin, nor Jasnah, nor even Dalinar would be Radiants as their path towards being broken is completely devoid of the horrors of Kaladin's past. Renarin, for instances, never murdered anyone, never witnessed anything horrible, never was beaten nor tortured, he simply grew up feeling useless because of a sickness. 

I for one would love to see other characters being broken through other means than physical torture.

[antgrgmn]

I heard a theory that Adolin would be broken from when his family finds out about Sadeas, and then Adolin would re-awaken his edgedancer blade. Thoughts?

[maxal]

7 minutes ago, antgrgmn said:

I heard a theory that Adolin would be broken from when his family finds out about Sadeas, and then Adolin would re-awaken his edgedancer blade. Thoughts?

My all-time favorite theory  

My thoughts are Adolin has cracked when he murdered Sadeas: his mind snapped, his actions weren't ones he would have done had he been stable. Adolin cracked under the pressure, the pressure of needing to safe-keep his family while maintaining his father's high ideals combined to the increased stress of watching the world change while being powerless to keep it stable. His stress-level got too high and he needed to do something to reduce them, hence is mind snapped and he killed one of his most major stress factor.

He killed Sadeas because his mind cracked under the pressure.

The aftermath will probably feature him breaking down under the same pressure because those changes the Radiants are bringing forth with them simply are too much for him to cope with. He stands too close to the tempest, he can't take a step back, breath, before going back in. Dalinar's ideals and sense of honor will demand he react harshly and finding out his son killed a Highprince days after he gave him the "I am a proud father" talk will be heart-breaking for him. I can't picture Dalinar reacting well.

As for Adolin, I think he is going to lose, a lot. He will lose his family's respect and trust. He will most probably lose rank and privilege. He may even lose his Shards, inclduimg his precious Blade. He will lose his future. All he thought he would accomplished: marriage, children, being the next Highprince will be taken from him in retribution for his deed.

My thoughts are the "return of the Radiants" will not go smoothly and Adolin will be the first victim, the one they never wanted to hurt, but who is going to get hurt anyway.

Where is Adolin going to go from there is completely unknown. Of course, I'd rather he takes on a journey of his own towards reviving his Blade which I think has to be more accidental than premeditate. It could also be he'll go on a journey of acceptance, acceptance the world he has known and loved is no more and he has to find a new place for himself into the new one. It won't be a place he wants or he relinquished, but he may have to do with what he's got.

So all in all, after seeing Kaladin and Shallan break down because of bad treatment, after seeing Dalinar break down because of his former self, after seeing Renarin break down because of his sickness, it will be incredibly interesting to read Adolin breaking down because..... of the Radiants. 

Anyway, I am terribly biased here because I find Adolin's prospective future widely interesting which makes me forever disappointed it probably won't be broached in as much depth as I wished it would be, but seriously, having someone break down because of the change brought by the Radiants, having them be the cause of hardships would be an amazing story arc to develop. It would make such a change from Kaladin simply becoming more powerful and more unbeatable.

[antgrgmn]

I think that he will almost defiantly get separated from his shards. He won't release the bond from his blade, so they have to smash the gemstone. Later, Adolin will get in a fight (perhaps a trial by combat?) And he won't have his shards. As a shardbearer is bringing his blade down, his spren will awaken and then he will fight off the shardbearer. Something that I'm hoping won't happen, but is entirely possible, is that for some reason Kaladin might turn against the KR, and that is why Brandon is building him up into an unbeatable fighting machine. Both of those are just ideas of mine though.

[maxal]

46 minutes ago, antgrgmn said:

I think that he will almost defiantly get separated from his shards. He won't release the bond from his blade, so they have to smash the gemstone. Later, Adolin will get in a fight (perhaps a trial by combat?) And he won't have his shards. As a shardbearer is bringing his blade down, his spren will awaken and then he will fight off the shardbearer. Something that I'm hoping won't happen, but is entirely possible, is that for some reason Kaladin might turn against the KR, and that is why Brandon is building him up into an unbeatable fighting machine. Both of those are just ideas of mine though.

I had had similar thoughts. Here are few of mine:

1) Either he is asked to forfeit his Shards or he loses them through battle, but in any way he ends up separated from them. The gemstone is most certainly broken and he most certainly releases the bond, but nothing can shatter the "other bond" he has started to have with it. There are several ways this scenario could play down. One of my favorite is having Adolin starting to struggle controlling his Blade: he is stressed out, he is emotionally very unstable and learning his Blade is a dead-spren which he is torturing each time he summons it, truly incapacitates him. He has a hard time maintaining it in the physical realm, he has a harder time summoning it, each command requires him to concentrate, immensely. Thus, he loses a fight, because he can't control his Blade as well as he should. He has to unbound it and then, he struggles even more. Whether he is asked to give up his Blade or whether he is forced, the action of unbounding it is very difficult for him. Dalinar has once stated it was the hardest command to send, you had to force the Blade to unbound you and it requires heavy concentration (which is why he is surprised at how easy it was to unbound his second Shardblade at the end of WoR). I suspect Adolin, Adolin who has struggled in throwing his Blade, who has shown us being emotionally unstable impacted his ability to send commands, would struggle to the point he will need time to force the command in, right under the prying eyes of either his family or an arena full of hateful lighteyes booing him.

2) Shardless Adolin would give us the chance to glimpse at how Shardbearers have to adjust when they lose their Shards. It has been sated, in the books, how difficult it was for former Shardbearers to fight again, how they had to re-learn everything because being a Sharbearer requires different techniques. Adolin has been a Shardbearer at a ridiculously young age: he never fought without Shards, he never learned. It would be very interesting to read him cope with this, to comment on how heavy and constraining a regular armor is, to run out of breath because he isn't used to pace himself and armors have a way to basically strangle you, to see his fighting ability lessen because a regular sword need more than one hit to kill, to be faced with a much more horrible battle because let's face it hacking people with a sword is bloody... all in all reading him adapting to this would be interesting, tragic even.

3) Of course, Adolin can't remain Shardless forever so in the ideas I have had, he would indeed end up re-forming a bond with his Blade. Maybe he kills its new owner or he manages to steal the Blade from him, but whatever happens Adolin just refuses to re-bond the Blade once it is his again. His family thinks he has gone insane and worry about him and his insistence on refusing to bond a 6 foot Shardblade he keeps on his back at all time... or perhaps he manages to send it back to the cognitive realm, but can't re-summon it again. I have all kinds of scenarios of how he may bond it, but I sure think it will be a slow progression. He will say the words because he needs to say them, but he won't have the immediate result. The result will happen once he says enough word...

I have no idea about Kaladin, but I have noticed Brandon loved over-powered main protagonist, so it is highly possible Kaladin will simply keep on growing in strength. I do not see him as an antagonist though.

[Emerald101]

6 hours ago, antgrgmn said:

I heard a theory that Adolin would be broken from when his family finds out about Sadeas, and then Adolin would re-awaken his edgedancer blade. Thoughts?

You just opened the floodgates. Nothing can stop Maxal now - which isn't to say that I disagree with the theory. I love it, actually. It's just that Maxal loves that theory more than a Herdazian loves Chouta.

[maxal]

51 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

You just opened the floodgates. Nothing can stop Maxal now - which isn't to say that I disagree with the theory. I love it, actually. It's just that Maxal loves that theory more than a Herdazian loves Chouta.

But, but, but.... everyone loves the "Adolin revives his Blade and becomes an Edgedancer"... Even those who do not want Adolin to become a Radiant still back this theory  Even those who dislike the character still think the theory is cool 

Still, I admit this theory is my favorite hobby: I never get tired of explaining it. Newcomers also do not have the benefit of having partake into the thousands of previous discussions there were on the subject throw the last two years. I really, really don't mind re-phrasing it for them, in fact, I adore doing it 

[Emerald101]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

But, but, but.... everyone loves the "Adolin revives his Blade and becomes an Edgedancer"... Even those who do not want Adolin to become a Radiant still back this theory  Even those who dislike the character still think the theory is cool 

Still, I admit this theory is my favorite hobby: I never get tired of explaining it. Newcomers also do not have the benefit of having partake into the thousands of previous discussions there were on the subject throw the last two years. I really, really don't mind re-phrasing it for them, in fact, I adore doing it 

You could be the spiritual ideal of enthusiasm when it comes to this. It's good, but it can also be a bit overwhelming

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

You could be the spiritual ideal of enthusiasm when it comes to this. It's good, but it can also be a bit overwhelming

Bah I figured those who aren't interested can simply skip the post and ignore it (which I suspect they do). Seriously, nobody has to read it nor like it, but when people ask about it, I do answer  The poster who asked for it doesn't know it has been discussed before and the more people who like the theory, the better 

[Emerald101]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Bah I figured those who aren't interested can simply skip the post and ignore it (which I suspect they do). Seriously, nobody has to read it nor like it, but when people ask about it, I do answer  The poster who asked for it doesn't know it has been discussed before and the more people who like the theory, the better 

My first post was intended as more of a joke than anything else. Go ahead and keep doing your thing, it's apparently part of what makes you the sharder you are.

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

My first post was intended as more of a joke than anything else. Go ahead and keep doing your thing, it's apparently part of what makes you the sharder you are.

I know and I responded by another one 

What makes me the Sharder I am isn't negative: we all have our points of interest, mines aren't any worst nor better than others. I am very proud into having succeeded into convincing many people Adolin works as an Edgedander. 

Besides, if people ask about it must mean they are interested in hearing about it. They wouldn't mention it if they weren't. Surely there are people who are tired of it, but for my part, as long as people want to discuss it, I will be available. It seriously is a discussion which keeps coming back which, to me, indicates an interest. As far as I can tell, no other character related theory has been as discussed as this one.

[Emerald101]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

What makes me the Sharder I am isn't negative: we all have our points of interest, mines aren't any worst nor better than others. I am very proud into having succeeded into convincing many people Adolin works as an Edgedander. 

I wasn't trying to imply that it was a negative. I meant it more as encouragement actually. By all means, keep convincing people. It was your arguments about the Adolin theory which convinced me back in my lurker days. People are interested; you're just a little more interested than most.

Side note: I love the 17S for being one of the only places on the web where reasonable discussions can actually take place.

[maxal]

18 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

I wasn't trying to imply that it was a negative. I meant it more as encouragement actually. By all means, keep convincing people. It was your arguments about the Adolin theory which convinced me back in my lurker days. People are interested; you're just a little more interested than most.

Side note: I love the 17S for being one of the only places on the web where reasonable discussions can actually take place.

I didn't think you said it in a negative way. I simply meant to say I was aware my personal investment into this specific theory (and this specific character) may be more than some are willing to tolerate. However, just as I ignore posts which are of little interest to myself or which I have little to add, I assume others are doing the same about mine.

I have to agree with you  The 17th Shard has made his reputation for providing healthy debate where discussions with diverging opinions remains possible. While excess still happens, we are all capable of moving past them as our love for Brandon is stronger then our disagreement 

Gee that was cheesy 

Seriously, I think the fact Brandon is such a nice, generous and swell guy has encouraged his fandom to behave in a similar manner.

I'm glad my arguments helped convincing you  Back when the theory started, not many people supported it, including myself. Technically, it isn't my theory, but I'll admit I have been championing it for so long it might as well be.

[Emerald101]

Lol, I just realized that my post about antgrgmn opening the floodgates resulted in the floodgates being opened on something else entirely.  The irony is real.

Never before have I so soundly derailed a thread . I'm proud of myself.

[+hwiles]

On 7/2/2016 at 10:55 PM, Eccentric Hero said:

I think that Knights Radiant need to be quite exceptionally broken.

 

It's definitely more than how broken one needs to be for allomancy.

 

Of course, you also have to have the right temperament in addition to being broken.

I think "broken" is a poor word choice in this case.  For example, Ruin was able to communicate directly with the mentally ill due to the naturally occurring gaps in their spirit webs; the gaps/holes/cracks weren't created by any external force, they developed naturally as a result of the individual's brain chemistry.  I'd argue this is how Renarin was able to bond a spren; sure, he's had his feelings hurt and suffers from social anxiety, but it seems to me that it has been his own internal and mental struggles, which most likely would have occurred no matter when/where he was born or who his family was, that poked the holes in his spirit web.  (obviously he also had to have the right inclinations and had to be judged worthy by a spren as well) ((there may even be a luck element in it, who knows?))

So for comparison, Renarin faces personal growth struggles on the Autism Spectrum.  It's kind of a tough lot, and I feel for him, but he doesn't really seem to have any cognitive deficits, and he's adapted very well and relatively quickly.  He got a spren somewhere around age 20ish?

Kelsier led a high-stress life of crime for about 30-40ish years (?), only snapping after watching his wife get executed in his place after months of malnutrition, beatings, grueling physical labor, and daily deep lacerations across his arms.

All considered, I think the "size" of the gaps a person needs in their spirit web in order to be able to participate in a magic system in the cosmere isn't something that is going to be identifiable since people appear to crack at different rates, and some of them start off with gaps.  Some people develop cracks participating in normal everyday life where others remain unchanged in the face of tremendous adversity; the similarity is that the cracks exist, however, I don't see how their "size" can be meaningfully compared and contrasted.

 

In other words, saying one person is "more" broken than another is usually going to be subjective.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, hwiles said:

I think "broken" is a poor word choice in this case.  For example, Ruin was able to communicate directly with the mentally ill due to the naturally occurring gaps in their spirit webs; the gaps/holes/cracks weren't created by any external force, they developed naturally as a result of the individual's brain chemistry.  I'd argue this is how Renarin was able to bond a spren; sure, he's had his feelings hurt and suffers from social anxiety, but it seems to me that it has been his own internal and mental struggles, which most likely would have occurred no matter when/where he was born or who his family was, that poked the holes in his spirit web.  (obviously he also had to have the right inclinations and had to be judged worthy by a spren as well) ((there may even be a luck element in it, who knows?))

So for comparison, Renarin faces personal growth struggles on the Autism Spectrum.  It's kind of a tough lot, and I feel for him, but he doesn't really seem to have any cognitive deficits, and he's adapted very well and relatively quickly.  He got a spren somewhere around age 20ish?

Kelsier led a high-stress life of crime for about 30-40ish years (?), only snapping after watching his wife get executed in his place after months of malnutrition, beatings, grueling physical labor, and daily deep lacerations across his arms.

All considered, I think the "size" of the gaps a person needs in their spirit web in order to be able to participate in a magic system in the cosmere isn't something that is going to be identifiable since people appear to crack at different rates, and some of them start off with gaps.  Some people develop cracks participating in normal everyday life where others remain unchanged in the face of tremendous adversity; the similarity is that the cracks exist, however, I don't see how their "size" can be meaningfully compared and contrasted.

 

In other words, saying one person is "more" broken than another is usually going to be subjective.

I like this post, I think it is very well formulated and it echos most of my thoughts. I also do not think we can play at comparing hardships in order to determine who i more worthy of being a Radiant. It is also fair to note both Kaladin and Shallan had a Nahel bond years prior to their most traumatic life events. Therefore, it wasn't Amaram, the betrayal, the slavery and the bridge runs which allowed Kaladin to become a Radiant, it was Tien's death which is sad, but not as traumatic as what followed. The same can be said about Shallan who bonded Pattern before she murdered her mother, before she murdered her father and before the blanked all of her memories.

Renarin has had an easy life. I know, I know, this is an unpopular thought, but seriously, the kid is rich, he is the son of the most powerful man on Roshar, his family is loving, supporting and encouraging, he never went lacking for anything except capacity into the one area he sought to succeed. Yes, he has a disability, but it is mild one and he has, excluding his self-esteem issue, grown quite well despite it. He hasn't been broken, broken. He just has had hardships and stuff to process which he found hard enough to flinch in front of them and thus crack. 

You can't compare pains. It is entirely subjective.

[Emerald101]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

You can't compare pains. It is entirely subjective.

This. What would be extremely traumatic for one person can be difficult but not unheard of for someone else.