Pathfinder Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Whether you think copper is better than bronze or not is immaterial as I have stated three times now. It is whether Kelsier thinks malatium's ability would be useful. I have quotes now right from the book, but I have a feeling it won't matter to you anyway, but here they are: Kindle edition page 222 Kelsier nodded "I searched for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything-he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group fo soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds. Only the stories of the Eleventh metal offered any hope. But I can't make it work! That's why I had to go back to the palace" kindle edition page 374 Kelsier's smile deepened. "The answer is no. I'm not lying. The legends are real, though it took some time for me to find them." "And that bit of metal you showed us really is the Eleventh Metal?" Vin said. "I think so," Kelsier said. "But you don't know how to use it." Vin said. Kelsier paused, then shook his head. "No, I don't" "That is not very comforting." Vin said. kindle edition page 490 "I could never figure out how this blasted metal was supposed to work. It's safe to burn-it won't kill you- but it doesn't appear to do anything useful. if you're reading this, then I failed to figure out how to use it when I faced the Lord Ruler." The quotes show that he isn't even sure if what he has even is the 11th metal. They also show he used it and felt it was useless because it didn't seem to do anything that he expected it to. Edited February 10, 2016 by Pathfinder 1
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Pathfinder is correct seemingly. Aluminum isnt as useful in most occasions but that doesnt make it less powerful. Its more useful in some situations and less useful in others. But i was specifically talking about alloys. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 3
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Okay, fair enough, but that's not what the argument was. Yata and you were arguing that he wouldn't even try to make the metal if he knew it had gold in it, because of some ability to predict what an alloy of gold would do. I was arguing that just because you knew gold's effects, you could in no way predict the exact abilities of its alloy with any certainty until you actually burned it for yourself. Was Keslier confused by the metal? Sure. But only after making and burning it himself. (And my point about outlining Copper and Bronze's effects was not about proving which metal was more useful, it was to prove, with direct observational evidence, that Copper and Bronze do NOT have equal and opposite effects. There is no opposite to Copper's brass/zinc immunity. Does that make copper "more usefull"? I don't care. It shows that you cannot predict every single last ability that a metal and its alloy will have by just looking at one of them.) Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I wasnt saying that at all. Yata was. But i agree with you to an extent. Yes, the opposite of gold is a mystery but it would most like cause a vision of some sort, it wont just blow things up. The alloys are opposites to a large extent. Its hard to believe that the alloy of a time metal would actually do anything other than a time ability. There is an opposite. Copper blocks and bronze can tell that a person is trying to sway him emotionally. So both of them are singularly protected. And more, bronze has advantage of knowing who it is. Plus bronze can affect brass/zinc. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 4
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Sorry, Navy, I didn't see your post as I was typing my reply. That "you" was directed at Pathfinder. As for your observation on the zinc/brass immunity opposite, I would still disagree there. Copper's ability to grant immunity to these two metals is above and beyond it's ability to hide allomantic pulses. It can hide all alomancy in a given area, but there is this odd quirk, and perk, that you personally become immune to two other metals. Bronze doesn't have a quirk. It does what it does for all allomantic pulses, and that's that. Again, it's not about what's more, less, or equally useful, its about the actual effect(s) being displayed. So my point is, by looking at the composition of malatium, without burning it, you have no idea if there's going to be an extra quirk, an additional benefit, to a gold/atium alloy that would do more than just "the opposite of gold". (Not to mention, why would you assume it's only the "opposite of gold", when it could just as well be the "opposite of atium"?) Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker
Pathfinder Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Okay, fair enough, but that's not what the argument was. Yata and you were arguing that he wouldn't even try to make the metal if he knew it had gold in it, because of some ability to predict what an alloy of gold would do. I was arguing that just because you knew gold's effects, you could in no way predict the exact abilities of its alloy with any certainty until you actually burned it for yourself. Was Keslier confused by the metal? Sure. But only after making and burning it himself. (And my point about outlining Copper and Bronze's effects was not about proving which metal was more useful, it was to prove, with direct observational evidence, that Copper and Bronze do NOT have equal and opposite effects. There is no opposite to Copper's brass/zinc immunity. Does that make copper "more usefull"? I don't care. It shows that you cannot predict every single last ability that a metal and its alloy will have by just looking at one of them.) See I knew you would find a way to ignore the quotes, but I still posted them. I must be a masochist for continuing to bash my head against the wall. Do I even bother posting quotes that show Kelsier was confused about the metal even before burning it himself? Do I even bother to show quotes where Kelsier only ever refers to it as the 11th metal and not once by malatium or its component parts? I could quote every single mention of the words eleventh metal, and it still would not matter. I have responses to what you wrote, but it reaches a point where there is no meaningful dialogue. Just repetition. So I am good, I am washing my hands of all of this. I give up 1
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) But like i said, you cant expect gold to have even a useful side effect against the lord ruler. What quirk could from it that could help him? Dont give up pathfinder. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 3
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Vin thought there was the ability to actually interact with his past, to kill him before he became the Lord Ruler and kind of erase him from the timeline. That wouldn't be a bad quirk. And Pathfinder may have bowed out of this argument, but I'll just respond to his points anyway. 1) I didn't ignore the quotes you posted. I acknowledged that they indicate that Kelsier was confused by the metal. 2) If you have a quote that clearly says the Kelsier has not burned the metal yet and/or is unsure what it's made of, go ahead and post it and I'll shut up. But the quotes you posted do not imply that he has not burned the metal. In fact, they imply that he has burned it, but just can't see it's usefulness, and isn't sure how it could possibly benefit him in fighting TLR. This is very different from him not having any idea what the metal even is. (While he's confused and not sure it's THE Eleventh Metal, it's definitely AN eleventh metal. Otherwise it wouldn't be safe to burn at all.) 3) Naming it "malatium" or not is irrelevant. Just because he didn't give it a name gives no indication about whether he knew what it was made of. 4) Just because he calls it "The Eleventh Metal" and nothing else is irrelevant, but, go ahead and post every mention of it in the book. If one of them includes mention that he has not burned it and doesn't know what it is made of, again, I'll shut up. Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) But that would erase everyone else from scadrial from the timeline too. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 3
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Well, depends on if the Cosmere runs on Back to the Future or Dragonlance time travel rules. How's this for another benefit: Without burning the alloy itself, you can conjecture that might do exactly what Electrum does (produces a cloud of all your own possible futures), as that's the true alloy of Gold. But what if it also had the same perk Atium grants, the increased cognitive ability to DEAL with all that information? Then it allows the perfect defense. You burn Atium and this thing at the same time, and now you know every move TLR and YOU will make, and you can instantly figure out which is the best course. Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) According to ecohansen kelsier didnt know of the malatiums origins at all. He thought it was just an extra non-alloyed metal. He didnt make it. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 3
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Whoops, sorry echohansen, I lost your post at the bottom of page 1 for me. Your theory is a descent explanation. I don't agree with it, but it works. (Honestly, I didn't notice the discrepancy of it's origin between The Final Empire and The Eleventh Metal) I'm not sure that I agree that Trell had anything to do with malatium. I'm pretty certain it was Ruin trying to get TLR's origins as a terrisman revealed so that he could be separated from his metalminds and killed. Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker
Navy Seon he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I agree with you there. Who said anything about trell? Never mind. Ecohansen. Uh.... maybe. Not likely. Edited February 10, 2016 by Navy Seon 3
Windrunner he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 I'll plug one of my pet theories again. Kelsier only found the book in The Eleventh Metal. That book must have contained a clue that led him to the place he STATED he found the eleventh metal in: a land far to the north ("near the northern peninsula") that still remembered its ancient name. I'm convinced that that name is "Nelazan", the ancient northern home of Trelagism. TRELL discovered malatium.Personally, I think Kell simply lies. He's trying to build a religion here, so a little bit of obfuscation and some time building an interesting backstory and legend are only going to help. His explanation is much more dramatic and interesting than simply saying he stole it off some noble's corpse.
Pathfinder Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 Here is every quote that mentioned the eleventh metal in chronological order page 78: "In the north, they have a legend," kelsier said "It teaches that the Lord Ruler isn't immortal-not completely. They say he can be killed with the right metal. The Eleventh Metal. That Metal." page 78: "The Lord Ruler has suppressed it," Kelsier said "But it can still be found, if you know where to look. Allomantic theory teaches of ten metals: the eight basic metals, and the two high metals. There is another one, however, unknown to most. One far more powerful, even, than the other ten." ........... Yeden however, appeared intrigued. "And, this metal can somehow kill the Lord Ruler?" Kelsier nodded. "It's his weakness. The Steel Ministry wants you to believe that he's immortal, but even he can be killed-by an Allomancer burning this." Ham reached out, picking up the thin bar of metal. "Where did you get it?" "In the North," Kelsier said "In a land near the Far Peninsula, a land where people still remember what their old kingdom was called in the days before the Ascension." "How does it work" Breeze said. "I 'm not sure," Kelsier said frankly. "But I intend to find out" So at this stage Kelsier does not know how the metal works. Further down this post will be the quote that shows he has not burned the metal yet page 114 "Kelsier smiled. "I'm still planning to deal with him personally-I just have to figure out how to make the Eleventh Metal work." page 139 "The Lord Ruler will stop you," Vin said "You can't beat him-he's immortal" "We have the Eleventh Metal," Kelsier said "We'll find a way to kill him." page 172 Kelsier glanced down at the small whitish bar in his hand. The Eleventh Metal. he knew the rumors about it- he'd started them. Now, he just had to make good on them page175 Breeze cleared his throat "I've...been hearing a lot of rumors on the streets, Kelsier" he said "The people are talking about this Eleventh Metal of yours." "Good" Kelsier said "Aren't you worried that the Lord Ruler will hear? If he has forewarning of what you're going to do, it will be much more difficult to.....resist him." Kelsier just smiled "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler-I've got things under control. In fact, I intend to pay the Lord Ruler a personal visit sometime during the next few days." page 205 He might trust her; he might not. However, he certainly had secrets. The Eleventh Metal, and therefore the Lord Ruler, were involved in those secrets. page 210 "Why do we need to worry about that?" Vin asked "You have the Eleventh Metal to defeat him, right?" Kelsier frowned slightly. Vin waited for an answer, but he didn't ever give one Kindle edition page 222 Kelsier nodded "I s earch ed for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything-he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group fo soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds. Only the stories of the Eleventh metal offered any hope. But I can't make it work! That's why I had to go back to the palace" (i copied pasted this, and it won't let me unbold the part already bolded) page 272 "But the skaa seem convinced about this rumor of an Elevnth Metal. Have you heard of it, informant?" "Ah, yes," Kelsier said, covering his shock. "A legend, my lord." "One I've never heard of," Venture said. "And I pay very close attention to such things. This is no legend. Someone very clever is manipulating the skaa." page 273 "It seems that the general skaa have gotten wind of the Eleventh Metal," he continued. "Some of the nobility have heard the building rumors, and the more intelligent ones are growing worried." page 281 Not all of them were discussing Kelsier, but a surprising number were. She also heard a number of references to the "Eleventh Metal" page 288 "I know" Marsh said "It started with that Eleventh Metal scheme of his. I don't know that we have to worry-this is just Kell playing his usual games" page 303 Kelsier thrust his hand into the air, holding aloft a tiny bar of metal. "You've heard of this, haven't you? You know the rumors of the Eleventh Metal? Well, I have it- and I will use it. The Lord Ruler will die!" page 337 "We need to talk about that by the way, Kell" Dockson said, frowning "I'm not sure if I like all this mysticism about you and the Eleventh Metal." page 340 "I'm concerned about him too" Ham said "This Eleventh Metal business...it's almost like he's making himself out to be some kind of holy man" page 374 "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler" Kelsier said "The Eleventh Metal will take care of him" The Eleventh Metal, she thought, remembering the skepticism with which the other crew members regarded it. "Is it real?" Vin asked. "The Eleventh Metal? Of course it is-I showed it to you, rememeber?" That's not what I mean," she said "Are the legends real? Are you lying?" Kelsier turned toward her, frowning slightly. Then he smirked. "You're a very blunt girl, Vin" "I know" Kelsier's smile deepended "The answer is no. I'm not lying. The legends are real, though it took some time for me to find them." "And that bit of metal you showed us really is the Eleventh Metal?" "I think so," Kelsier said. "But you don't know how to use it" Kelsier paused, then shook his head "No. I don't" page 375 "The Eleventh Metal. Couldn't we just try it and see what it does?" "It's not that simple." Kelsier said "You remember how I told you never to burn a metal that wasn't one of the ten?" Vin nodded "Burning another metal can be deadly," Kelsier said "Even getting the wrong mixture in an alloy metal can make you sick. If I'm wrong about the Eleventh Metal...." "It will kill you," Vin said quietyly. Kelsier nodded. So, you're not quite as certain as you pretend, she decided. Otherwise, you'd have tried it by now. "That's what you want to find in the logbook" Vin said "A clue about how to use the Eleventh Metal" So there it is shown he has not burned it yet, is unsure about it, and referred to it as a metal other than the known ten. If it was just an alloy he was referring to, he would just be concerned about getting sick, but Vin confirms he is worried he will die from burning it. and now here is the rest of the quotes. My wrists are hurting so I hope you all appreciate this page 404 "if it is of any comfort" Sazed said "you are not the only one who is disappointed by the logbook's contents. It didn't contain much that Master Kelsier coud use-certainly, there was nothing about the Eleventh Metal. I feel somewhat guilty, since I am the one who benefited most from the book." page 461 "Have you ever heard about this Eleventh Metal legend that Kelsier talks about?" Sazed paused "No, Mistress. That legend was new to me when I heard of it from Master Kelsier." "But he swears that it's true" Vin said "And I....believe him, for some reason" "It is very possible that there are legends I haven't heard of" Sazed said "If the keepers knew everything, then why would we need to keep searching?" page 476 "This is it, Vin" Dockson said, awed. "This is what he's been waiting for. A chance to face the Lord Ruler-a chance to prove those legends of his." Vin turned back to the square. The carriage rolled to a stop. "But..." she said quietly "The Eleventh Metal. Did he bring it?" "He must have" page 479 "What of your plans? What of the Eleventh Metal? What of me?" page 490 It was followed by a small bar of metal wrapped in a sheet of paper. The Eleventh Metal. Vin unwrapped the paper. I could never figure out how this blasted metal was supposed to work. It's safe to burn-it won't kill you- but it doesn't appear to do anything useful. if you're reading this, then I failed to figure out how to use it when I faced the Lord Ruler. I don't think it matters. The people needed something to believe in, and this was the only way to give it to them. page 490 "It..says that he doesn't know how the Eleventh Metal works. he's sorry-he wasn't certain how to defeat the Lord Ruler" page 491 she said, taking a file from the box and scraping off a few flakes of the Eleventh Metal. She paused-eyeing the unfamiliar, silvery metal- then swallowed the flakes with a gulp from her flask.She put a couple more flakes in one of her backup metal vials page 496 And then, she remembered it. The Eleventh Metal, its power sitting within her, forming an unfamiliar reserve. She looked up, glaring at the old man. This had better work. She burned the Eleventh metal. Nothing happening. Vin struggled in frustration, her heart sinking. And then she saw him. Another man, standing right beside the Lord Ruler. Where had he come from? She hadn't seen him enter page 496 The Eleventh Metal burned out. Both newcomers vanished like ghosts. page 500 Did I presume to succeed where Kelsier had failed? He knew that the Eleventh metal was useless.It had done smoething, true-but it certainly hadn't killed the Lord Ruler. She sat, thinking, trying to figure out what had happened. There had been an odd familiarity about the things the Eleventh Metal had shown her. Not because of the way the visions had appeared, but because of the way Vin had felt when burning the metal. Gold. The moment when I burned the Eleventh Metal felt like that time when Kelsier had me burn gold. Could it be that the Eleventh Metal wasn't really eleventh at all? Gold and atium had always seemed oddly paired to Vin. All of the other metals came in pairs that were similar-a base metal, then its alloy, each doing opposite things. Iron Pulled, steel Pushed. Zinc Pulled, brass Pushed. It made sense. All except for atium and gold. What if the Eleventh Metal was really an alloy of atium or of gold? It would mean.....that gold and atium aren't paired. They do two different things. Similar, but different. They're like.... Like the other metals, which were grouped into larger bases of four. There were the physical metals: iron, steel, tin, and pewter. The mental metals: bronze, copper, zinc and brass. And.... there were the time affecting metals: gold and its alloy, and atium and its alloy. That means there's another metal. One that hasn't been discovered-probably because atium and gold are too valuable to forge into different alloys.But what good was the knowledge? her Eleventh Metal was probably just a paired opposite of gold-the metal Kelsier had told her was the most uesless of them all. Gold had shown Vin herself-or, at least, a different version of her that had felt real enough to touch. But, it had simply been a vision of what she could have become, had the past been different. The Eleventh Metal had done something similar: Instead of showing Vin's own past, it had shown her similar images from other people page 516 "I have to try" she said "The Eleventh Metal worked, Saze. I saw....something. Kelsier was convinced it would provide the secret" page 518 Kelsier believed that the Eleventh Metal was the key she thought page 519 Vin burned the Eleventh Metal. The Lord Ruler's past self appeared as it had before, forming as if out of mist to stand on the dais beside the throne. page 521 It had been a clever idea, far more clever than Vin's foolish attempt with the Eleventh Metal- however it had proven equally faulty. page 523 She reached within, feeling her last little bit of Eleventh Metal reserve. She burned it, looking through tearstained eyes as the Lord Ruler held Marsh in a one handed grip page 535 She was, in a way, like one of the shadow images created by the Eleventh Metal. Incorporeal. Really just something that could have been. So there. Every single quote from the eleventh metal. Every answer to every question. I rest my case. 3
NovaSeeker he/him Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 yeah, page 375 does pretty clearly imply he has no idea what the metal is made of, and hasn't burned it yet. You win. 1
Robot Aztec Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 Here is every quote that mentioned the eleventh metal in chronological order page 78: "In the north, they have a legend," kelsier said "It teaches that the Lord Ruler isn't immortal-not completely. They say he can be killed with the right metal. The Eleventh Metal. That Metal." page 78: "The Lord Ruler has suppressed it," Kelsier said "But it can still be found, if you know where to look. Allomantic theory teaches of ten metals: the eight basic metals, and the two high metals. There is another one, however, unknown to most. One far more powerful, even, than the other ten." ........... Yeden however, appeared intrigued. "And, this metal can somehow kill the Lord Ruler?" Kelsier nodded. "It's his weakness. The Steel Ministry wants you to believe that he's immortal, but even he can be killed-by an Allomancer burning this." Ham reached out, picking up the thin bar of metal. "Where did you get it?" "In the North," Kelsier said "In a land near the Far Peninsula, a land where people still remember what their old kingdom was called in the days before the Ascension." "How does it work" Breeze said. "I 'm not sure," Kelsier said frankly. "But I intend to find out" So at this stage Kelsier does not know how the metal works. Further down this post will be the quote that shows he has not burned the metal yet page 114 "Kelsier smiled. "I'm still planning to deal with him personally-I just have to figure out how to make the Eleventh Metal work." page 139 "The Lord Ruler will stop you," Vin said "You can't beat him-he's immortal" "We have the Eleventh Metal," Kelsier said "We'll find a way to kill him." page 172 Kelsier glanced down at the small whitish bar in his hand. The Eleventh Metal. he knew the rumors about it- he'd started them. Now, he just had to make good on them page175 Breeze cleared his throat "I've...been hearing a lot of rumors on the streets, Kelsier" he said "The people are talking about this Eleventh Metal of yours." "Good" Kelsier said "Aren't you worried that the Lord Ruler will hear? If he has forewarning of what you're going to do, it will be much more difficult to.....resist him." Kelsier just smiled "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler-I've got things under control. In fact, I intend to pay the Lord Ruler a personal visit sometime during the next few days." page 205 He might trust her; he might not. However, he certainly had secrets. The Eleventh Metal, and therefore the Lord Ruler, were involved in those secrets. page 210 "Why do we need to worry about that?" Vin asked "You have the Eleventh Metal to defeat him, right?" Kelsier frowned slightly. Vin waited for an answer, but he didn't ever give one Kindle edition page 222 Kelsier nodded "I s earch ed for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything-he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group fo soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds. Only the stories of the Eleventh metal offered any hope. But I can't make it work! That's why I had to go back to the palace" (i copied pasted this, and it won't let me unbold the part already bolded) page 272 "But the skaa seem convinced about this rumor of an Elevnth Metal. Have you heard of it, informant?" "Ah, yes," Kelsier said, covering his shock. "A legend, my lord." "One I've never heard of," Venture said. "And I pay very close attention to such things. This is no legend. Someone very clever is manipulating the skaa." page 273 "It seems that the general skaa have gotten wind of the Eleventh Metal," he continued. "Some of the nobility have heard the building rumors, and the more intelligent ones are growing worried." page 281 Not all of them were discussing Kelsier, but a surprising number were. She also heard a number of references to the "Eleventh Metal" page 288 "I know" Marsh said "It started with that Eleventh Metal scheme of his. I don't know that we have to worry-this is just Kell playing his usual games" page 303 Kelsier thrust his hand into the air, holding aloft a tiny bar of metal. "You've heard of this, haven't you? You know the rumors of the Eleventh Metal? Well, I have it- and I will use it. The Lord Ruler will die!" page 337 "We need to talk about that by the way, Kell" Dockson said, frowning "I'm not sure if I like all this mysticism about you and the Eleventh Metal." page 340 "I'm concerned about him too" Ham said "This Eleventh Metal business...it's almost like he's making himself out to be some kind of holy man" page 374 "Don't worry about the Lord Ruler" Kelsier said "The Eleventh Metal will take care of him" The Eleventh Metal, she thought, remembering the skepticism with which the other crew members regarded it. "Is it real?" Vin asked. "The Eleventh Metal? Of course it is-I showed it to you, rememeber?" That's not what I mean," she said "Are the legends real? Are you lying?" Kelsier turned toward her, frowning slightly. Then he smirked. "You're a very blunt girl, Vin" "I know" Kelsier's smile deepended "The answer is no. I'm not lying. The legends are real, though it took some time for me to find them." "And that bit of metal you showed us really is the Eleventh Metal?" "I think so," Kelsier said. "But you don't know how to use it" Kelsier paused, then shook his head "No. I don't" page 375 "The Eleventh Metal. Couldn't we just try it and see what it does?" "It's not that simple." Kelsier said "You remember how I told you never to burn a metal that wasn't one of the ten?" Vin nodded "Burning another metal can be deadly," Kelsier said "Even getting the wrong mixture in an alloy metal can make you sick. If I'm wrong about the Eleventh Metal...." "It will kill you," Vin said quietyly. Kelsier nodded. So, you're not quite as certain as you pretend, she decided. Otherwise, you'd have tried it by now. "That's what you want to find in the logbook" Vin said "A clue about how to use the Eleventh Metal" So there it is shown he has not burned it yet, is unsure about it, and referred to it as a metal other than the known ten. If it was just an alloy he was referring to, he would just be concerned about getting sick, but Vin confirms he is worried he will die from burning it. and now here is the rest of the quotes. My wrists are hurting so I hope you all appreciate this <_< page 404 "if it is of any comfort" Sazed said "you are not the only one who is disappointed by the logbook's contents. It didn't contain much that Master Kelsier coud use-certainly, there was nothing about the Eleventh Metal. I feel somewhat guilty, since I am the one who benefited most from the book." page 461 "Have you ever heard about this Eleventh Metal legend that Kelsier talks about?" Sazed paused "No, Mistress. That legend was new to me when I heard of it from Master Kelsier." "But he swears that it's true" Vin said "And I....believe him, for some reason" "It is very possible that there are legends I haven't heard of" Sazed said "If the keepers knew everything, then why would we need to keep searching?" page 476 "This is it, Vin" Dockson said, awed. "This is what he's been waiting for. A chance to face the Lord Ruler-a chance to prove those legends of his." Vin turned back to the square. The carriage rolled to a stop. "But..." she said quietly "The Eleventh Metal. Did he bring it?" "He must have" page 479 "What of your plans? What of the Eleventh Metal? What of me?" page 490 It was followed by a small bar of metal wrapped in a sheet of paper. The Eleventh Metal. Vin unwrapped the paper. I could never figure out how this blasted metal was supposed to work. It's safe to burn-it won't kill you- but it doesn't appear to do anything useful. if you're reading this, then I failed to figure out how to use it when I faced the Lord Ruler. I don't think it matters. The people needed something to believe in, and this was the only way to give it to them. page 490 "It..says that he doesn't know how the Eleventh Metal works. he's sorry-he wasn't certain how to defeat the Lord Ruler" page 491 she said, taking a file from the box and scraping off a few flakes of the Eleventh Metal. She paused-eyeing the unfamiliar, silvery metal- then swallowed the flakes with a gulp from her flask.She put a couple more flakes in one of her backup metal vials page 496 And then, she remembered it. The Eleventh Metal, its power sitting within her, forming an unfamiliar reserve. She looked up, glaring at the old man. This had better work. She burned the Eleventh metal. Nothing happening. Vin struggled in frustration, her heart sinking. And then she saw him. Another man, standing right beside the Lord Ruler. Where had he come from? She hadn't seen him enter page 496 The Eleventh Metal burned out. Both newcomers vanished like ghosts. page 500 Did I presume to succeed where Kelsier had failed? He knew that the Eleventh metal was useless.It had done smoething, true-but it certainly hadn't killed the Lord Ruler. She sat, thinking, trying to figure out what had happened. There had been an odd familiarity about the things the Eleventh Metal had shown her. Not because of the way the visions had appeared, but because of the way Vin had felt when burning the metal. Gold. The moment when I burned the Eleventh Metal felt like that time when Kelsier had me burn gold. Could it be that the Eleventh Metal wasn't really eleventh at all? Gold and atium had always seemed oddly paired to Vin. All of the other metals came in pairs that were similar-a base metal, then its alloy, each doing opposite things. Iron Pulled, steel Pushed. Zinc Pulled, brass Pushed. It made sense. All except for atium and gold. What if the Eleventh Metal was really an alloy of atium or of gold? It would mean.....that gold and atium aren't paired. They do two different things. Similar, but different. They're like.... Like the other metals, which were grouped into larger bases of four. There were the physical metals: iron, steel, tin, and pewter. The mental metals: bronze, copper, zinc and brass. And.... there were the time affecting metals: gold and its alloy, and atium and its alloy. That means there's another metal. One that hasn't been discovered-probably because atium and gold are too valuable to forge into different alloys.But what good was the knowledge? her Eleventh Metal was probably just a paired opposite of gold-the metal Kelsier had told her was the most uesless of them all. Gold had shown Vin herself-or, at least, a different version of her that had felt real enough to touch. But, it had simply been a vision of what she could have become, had the past been different. The Eleventh Metal had done something similar: Instead of showing Vin's own past, it had shown her similar images from other people page 516 "I have to try" she said "The Eleventh Metal worked, Saze. I saw....something. Kelsier was convinced it would provide the secret" page 518 Kelsier believed that the Eleventh Metal was the key she thought page 519 Vin burned the Eleventh Metal. The Lord Ruler's past self appeared as it had before, forming as if out of mist to stand on the dais beside the throne. page 521 It had been a clever idea, far more clever than Vin's foolish attempt with the Eleventh Metal- however it had proven equally faulty. page 523 She reached within, feeling her last little bit of Eleventh Metal reserve. She burned it, looking through tearstained eyes as the Lord Ruler held Marsh in a one handed grip page 535 She was, in a way, like one of the shadow images created by the Eleventh Metal. Incorporeal. Really just something that could have been. So there. Every single quote from the eleventh metal. Every answer to every question. I rest my case. 11th metal was on plack in hero of age too!
natc Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 The philosophical pairings of alloys are honestly more "opposite" than the way the concepts themselves manifest as an ability. If we interpret pewter/tin as making you more resistant or sensative to outside physical influences then it sorta checks out. Copper also dampens investiture fluctuations (was emotional allomancy cognitive or spiritual? I forget) in one of the other realms, while bronze makes them more detectable to the allomancer. Marsh does say that you can figure out what an emotional allomancer is trying to riot or soothe with bronze, if I recall correctly. Steel and iron are self explanatory, as are brass and zinc. Less so with those too because of how weird emotions are. Except at the extremes of emotion both can achieve similar things. With that logic the "high metal" pairing actually doesn't fall apart nearly as much as it would from just the technical viewpoint.
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