Malatiums Beginnings?

[Navy Seon he/him]

I was wondering, atium is very rare and only nobles who had mistborns had it or other people who were mistborns or seers. So malatium is a mix of gold and atium two extremely expensive and rare metals. And atium is priceless. So who was the one who mixed them? Only an idiot would do that. No one knew about alternative metals except maybe lord ruler who forsure didnt mix them. So who did and why and how?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Navy Seon

[NovaSeeker he/him]

I believe it goes like this.

 

Kelsier Snaps at the Pits, kills all the guards, steals a butt load of Atium (most of which went to paying for OreSeur's Contract)

 

Kelsier goes to Gemmel for Mistborn training.

 

Gemmel is bonkers and is influenced by Ruin. This lets Ruin guide Kelsier to a specific noble doing allomancy experiments.

 

Kelsier takes the dead noble's notes (which, no matter what the noble was actually researching, could have been altered by Ruin to give the exact mix of gold and atium needed to produce the allomantic alloy of malatium)

 

Kelsier takes some gold and some of the Atium he stole from the Pits, and makes the alloy himself or has it made for him.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Uilos he/him]

I haven't read the short story from the RPG in a while, but I thought the bar of Malatium was already in the lab. 

I also think that Ruin orchestrated the whole thing. It's been confirmed that Ruin can influence the insane (Vin's mother) and neither Gemmel nor the nobleman experimentor were playing with a full deck. He made sure Malatium could be produced in order for someone to discover TLR's secret and exploit it. Ruin was limited in what he could do, so a nudge here and a shift there.A few words and whispered thoughts and bam: malatium, perfect for outting TLR's ancient allomantic secret.

[Navy Seon he/him]

Where is this source? In the mistborn short of 11th metal or just a speculation or WoB?

EDIT:

I knew that Ruin orchestrated it. I just couldnt think of a plausible one. Thanks novaseeker. That makes a lot of sense, even if it isnt documented.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Navy Seon
Please don't double post, simply edit your previous post. Thanks!

[Uilos he/him]

Where is this source? In the mistborn short of 11th metal or just a speculation or WoB?

the Eleventh Metal short story at the beginning of the RPG, which is Gemmel and Kelsier discovering the lab. I could have sword that the Malatium was already done and waiting there for Kelsier.

[NovaSeeker he/him]

I just read that short story yesterday, but I admit I was reading it in a rush. (I had just bought Secret History, but then figured I might want to read Eleventh Metal first). I may have missed the mention of an actual malatium bar, but I think all Kelsier grabbed was the notebook written by the noble documenting his experiments.

[Uilos he/him]

Just read through that scene. You're right, it's the book and not the bar.

[Yata he/him]

I just read that short story yesterday, but I admit I was reading it in a rush. (I had just bought Secret History, but then figured I might want to read Eleventh Metal first). I may have missed the mention of an actual malatium bar, but I think all Kelsier grabbed was the notebook written by the noble documenting his experiments.

Yes also because Kelsier had no idea of the nature of the 11th metal (he didn't know it was an Atium-Gold Alloy). If he knowed something, He would explain something like that to Vin when He teached her Allomancy (and the "Superior Metal").

He also thinked to the Gold as Allomantically useless, and if he Knowed that his chance to kill TLR is in a Gold Alloy He would be more interested in Gold.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Yata

[NovaSeeker he/him]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Look at tin and pewter. Those have wildly different effects, and pewter can be argued to be the more "powerful" of them (Spook would definitely tell you so).

 

Even better, look at copper and bronze. You can say that copper is more powerful than bronze, since a smoker's coppercloud can (assuming equal allomantic strength) perfectly hide from a seeker's magic-sense (AND it has a second effect of making you immune to two other metals.

 

So gold does something seemingly useless. That doesn't tell you anything about what it's alloy does, because there's no indication of the relative strengths between a metal and its alloy (before you make and test it, which is what Kelsier was doing during the book).

Edited February 9, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[DeadFencer]

Maybe Gemmel made the metal. We know he took that book from the 11th metal researcher. He was being influenced by Ruin, so he could have been able to make it.

[Pathfinder]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Look at tin and pewter. Those have wildly different effects, and pewter can be argued to be the more "powerful" of them (Spook would definitely tell you so).

 

Even better, look at copper and bronze. You can say that copper is more powerful than bronze, since a smoker's coppercloud can (assuming equal allomantic strength) perfectly hide from a seeker's magic-sense (AND it has a second effect of making you immune to two other metals.

 

So gold does something seemingly useless. That doesn't tell you anything about what it's alloy does, because there's no indication of the relative strengths between a metal and its alloy (before you make and test it, which is what Kelsier was doing during the book).

Not from how it is presented in the book. Every metal has a complimentary alloy that coincides with the ability it grants. Pewter enhances the body, tin enhances senses, steel pushes, iron pulls, brass dampens emotions, zinc inflames emotions,  bronze finds allomantic pulses, copper hides allomantic pulses. So if gold shows you a holographic version of what you could have been in the past, then what possible ability could its alloy grant that would be in line with that, and be capable of defeating the lord ruler? 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Their themes are matched, sure, but I was pointing out their practical effects are not at all similar, and the "usefulness" disparity between them.

 

Pewter and Tin both enhance you. Sure. But in practical terms of use, they are wildly different effects, and I (and Spook) would probably say that Pewter is the more useful ability.

 

Copper and Bronze both have ties to allomantic pulses. Fine. But Copper also blocks two entire other metals and trumps its alloy pairing entirely (Bronze will never be able to detect copper, assuming a seeker and a smoker of equal allomantic strength)

 

So Gold and Malatium would ostensibly both interact with time. Okay. But there's no reason to assume Malatium would be just as useless as gold. Because there is precedent (as with pewter and copper) of alloy pairings having disparate levels of usefulness.

Edited February 9, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

Their themes are matched, sure, but I was pointing out their practical effects are not at all similar, and the "usefulness" disparity between them.

 

Pewter and Tin both enhance you. Sure. But in practical terms of use, they are wildly different effects, and I (and Spook) would probably say that Pewter is the more useful ability.

 

Copper and Bronze both have ties to allomantic pulses. Fine. But Copper also blocks two entire other metals and trumps its alloy pairing entirely (Bronze will never be able to detect copper, assuming a seeker and a smoker of equal allomantic strength)

 

So Gold and Malatium would ostensibly both interact with time. Okay. But there's no reason to assume Malatium would be just as useless as gold. Because there is precedent (as with pewter and copper) of alloy pairings having disparate levels of usefulness.

Usefulness is subjective. Vin was impressed by Spook's ability with tin, and his reason for feeling useless with tin was in comparison to mistborn who had all the abilities. Straff is a tin misting, and he used it extensively in a myriad of very effective ways. But even then, the point Yata made was that had Kelsier known it was an alloy of gold, then Kelsier would have viewed it as useless. The ability malatium exhibited makes perfect sense given the rule regarding allomancy's push and pull, and due to its sources (gold makes you see your own past, atium makes you see someone else's future), by extension malatium would either let you see your own future, or someone else's past. Kelsier is looking for a weapon to kill the Lord Ruler. One that he can stand in front of the Lord Ruler, burn it and the Lord Ruler dies. This is confirmed in a way that I cannot mention in this thread given the current spoiler rules. Even saying that might be skirting them, so if so I apologize. My point is, the way Kelsier spoke of it, and implied how he intended to use it, spoke of an ability he expected to be physical or direct. Not at all in line with the ability we are presented with. Based on the information he had, had he known malatium was an alloy of gold, he would have been able to reason the effect, and based on the information we have, would not have confronted the lord ruler the way he did. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Secret History spoiler

 

Well, Kelsier specifically did not view it as useless. It was his Plan A to deal with TLR. I'm attempting to give a rational as to why he might think that way.

 

Also, it should be noted that Malatium is also an alloy of ATIUM, the best of the best metal there is. Perhaps the composition of Malatium is some very very high percentage of Atium compared to gold, so Kelsier might assume that the vast majority of Malatium's usefulness would be inherited from its atium portion.

 

Also, Malatium's effects are actually pretty coincidental. Malatium does not belong on the table of allomantic metals, and it is not in a Push/Pull pairing with Gold (That would be Electrum). True, Kelsier wouldn't know this, but he also couldn't reasonably expect it to conform to the 10-metal table, because it was an alloy of both "high metals".

Edited February 9, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

Secret History spoiler

 

Well, Kelsier specifically did not view it as useless. It was his Plan A to deal with TLR. I'm attempting to give a rational as to why he might think that way.

 

Also, it should be noted that Malatium is also an alloy of ATIUM, the best of the best metal there is. Perhaps the composition of Malatium is some very very high percentage of Atium compared to gold, so Kelsier might assume that the vast majority of Malatium's usefulness would be inherited from its atium portion.

 

Also, Malatium's effects are actually pretty coincidental. Malatium does not belong on the table of allomantic metals, and it is not in a Push/Pull pairing with Gold (That would be Electrum). True, Kelsier wouldn't know this, but he also couldn't reasonably expect it to conform to the 10-metal table, because it was an alloy of both "high metals".

Again, the point I understood that Yata made (correct me if I am wrong), is that the reason Kelsier felt malatium was useful was because he did not know it was an alloy of gold and atium. That had he known it was an alloy of gold and atium, he would have reasoned that it would either create images showing his own future (he did not know what electrum was at that time) or images of the enemy's past. Given how he acted in the books, it shows he expected the metal to act like a physical weapon (whether that meant making TLR go boom, depowering TLR or super charging Kelsier). Showing your own future would be just a counter to atium, and seeing someone else's past just gives you information about the individual. Neither provide a means for you to stand in front of TLR, burn the metal, and win. Just because atium is powerful by letting you see another's future, does not change how it functions. It functions by seeing images of another person's future, so its alloy will mimic this . Especially when the other metal it is alloyed with does the same thing but in reverse (past instead of future). You can feel it is useful all you want, the question is would Kelsier with that piece of information think it was. Based on how we see Kelsier act in the book, the laws regarding allomancy, and how everything plays out, I feel that is confirmation that Kelsier did not know malatium was an alloy of gold. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Then I submit that Yata is merely incorrect. Keslier took the notebook from the noble he killed describing the 11th metal. This is apparently the story of how Kelsier came to possess Malatium, but at the end of the story he only has a set of notes on experiments. What would those notes contain if not the method to make Malatium? How would Keslier be able to get the bar of Malatium he has in The Final Empire if he didn't create it from these notes? If he got it from some place other than these notes, then why is the story where he gets these notes entitled "The 11th Metal"?

 

Also the point I was making about pewter/tin and copper/bronze was twofold. The question of usefulness is, as you say, subjective. But my other point was that these pairings do wildly different things.

 

Enhancing your endurance, strength, and healing is in no way directly related to enhancing your senses. These are not "opposites". And while detecting and hiding allomantic pulses might be opposites, copper has an additional effect of granting immunity to two metals that has no correlation to bronze whatsoever.

 

There is no possible way Keslier could have automatically discounted the effectiveness of Malatium because "oh, it has gold in it, so obviously it can ONLY do one of these things." At the very least he would at least have to make the bar and test it to know what it does, to see if it's effects aren't wildly different like Pewter/tin, or if there isn't some opposite+extra benefit effect like copper/bronze.

Edited February 9, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[steamrollah]

Slightly tangential, but does anyone else reckon TLR knew that atium could be alloyed in such a way with the other metals? The guy had a buttload of the stuff flowing into his possession for a millennium, and I refuse to believe that he just kept his share hidden under his mattress until he felt his joints creaking a bit too much. Is it possible he had this noble, and perhaps others, in his employ to try and find these alloys? It would certainly explain the source of the rather large amount of atium he had.

[Yata he/him]

Yeah Pathfinder You have right in what I Wanted to say. If Kelsier knowed about the Gold-Atium nature of the Malatium, He would know The "Allomancy Rules" was wrong, and why He didn't tell to Vin (while he explained her that the "Superior Metals" have not alloy) or the Crew this information (He was planning his own Death after all).

If I don't remember wrong, He has only that tiny bar and He ever said about creating more.

 

@NovaSeeker Kelsier in the 11th Metal, just find a notebook about the possible existence of an Eleven Metal, I really doubt that that this Researcher have actually ever seen the Malatium, maybe just some kind of voice (spread by Ruin probably) and the creation of that bar was made also under Ruin's Influence.

 

Slightly tangential, but does anyone else reckon TLR knew that atium could be alloyed in such a way with the other metals? 

He obtain a great understanding of the Metallic Arts through the Well, He have to know about the God Metals and their effects.

There are some theory about him using some Atium-Alloys to fulfill some of his feats.

[Navy Seon he/him]

I dont think so steamrollah, its quite clear that he had the atium to control the nobles and he didnt even keep it, he gave it to the kandra.

[ecohansen]

I'll plug one of my pet theories again.  Kelsier only found the book in The Eleventh Metal.  That book must have contained a clue that led him to the place he STATED he found the eleventh metal in: a land far to the north ("near the northern peninsula") that still remembered its ancient name.  I'm convinced that that name is "Nelazan", the ancient northern home of Trelagism. TRELL discovered malatium.

Edited February 10, 2016 by ecohansen

[Pathfinder]

 

Also the point I was making about pewter/tin and copper/bronze was twofold. The question of usefulness is, as you say, subjective. But my other point was that these pairings do wildly different things.

 

Enhancing your endurance, strength, and healing is in no way directly related to enhancing your senses. These are not "opposites". And while detecting and hiding allomantic pulses might be opposites, copper has an additional effect of granting immunity to two metals that has no correlation to bronze whatsoever.

Again, the books clearly state this is not true. Pewter pushes your body beyond what it is capable of. Tin pulls in sensory information. Both deal with the physical and both are internal metals. Pewter causes you to ignore pain, tin causes you to feel it a hundred fold. If we did not know what tin does, it can be reasoned it has to deal with the physical and how the body performs as its compliment pewter does. It is literally spelled out in the book the rules of allomancy. For every push there is a pull, for internal there is external. Kelsier says it for himself. Sanderson created allomancy to be a magic system that can be studied and expanded upon in the scientific manner and there are WoB on that. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

So Pewter causes you ignore sight and sound and touch? Of course not. Can pewter stop your ears from ringing if there's an explosion near you? Probably, but it's not going to make your ability to hear dampen any, which would actually be opposite what Tin does.

 

They are thematically opposed, but they are not opposites in a practical, applicable way like Iron and Steel are.

 

And even ignoring pewter/tin, my case can still be made with copper/bronze.

 

Pretend that Bronze was the fabled 11th metal. You only have experience with Copper. You know that Copper is the mental, internal, pulling metal. It lets you

 

1) hide allomantic pulses near you, and

 

2) grants you personal immunity to the mental external metals.

 

Based on the alloy principles, you can surmise that Bronze will be the legendary mental, internal, pushing metal that no one has ever discovered before. And if you believe "EVERY push has a pull", you would guess that Bronze will let you

 

1) discover allomantic pulses near you, and

 

2) will make you more susceptible to the mental external metals.

 

Except that's not what it does. Coppers #2 HAS no corresponding Push in Bronze. Bronze has no #2, and is even more useful than you thought.

 

And you would never have known this based purely on conjecture, on extrapolating from the rules of alomancy as you perceived them. You would only know by actually creating the allomantic Bronze alloy and burning it.

 

Which is why Kelsier could not know exactly what malatium would do without knowing how to create it and burning it himself.

[Pathfinder]

So Pewter causes you ignore sight and sound and touch? Of course not. Can pewter stop your ears from ringing if there's an explosion near you? Probably, but it's not going to make your ability to hear dampen any, which would actually be opposite what Tin does.

 

They are thematically opposed, but they are not opposites in a practical, applicable way like Iron and Steel are.

 

And even ignoring pewter/tin, my case can still be made with copper/bronze.

 

Pretend that Bronze was the fabled 11th metal. You only have experience with Copper. You know that Copper is the mental, internal, pulling metal. It lets you

 

1) hide allomantic pulses near you, and

 

2) grants you personal immunity to the mental external metals.

 

Based on the alloy principles, you can surmise that Bronze will be the legendary mental, internal, pushing metal that no one has ever discovered before. And if you believe "EVERY push has a pull", you would guess that Bronze will let you

 

1) discover allomantic pulses near you, and

 

2) will make you more susceptible to the mental external metals.

 

Except that's not what it does. Coppers #2 HAS no corresponding Push in Bronze. Bronze has no #2, and is even more useful than you thought.

 

And you would never have known this based purely on conjecture, on extrapolating from the rules of alomancy as you perceived them. You would only know by actually creating the allomantic Bronze alloy and burning it.

 

Which is why Kelsier could not know exactly what malatium would do without knowing how to create it and burning it himself.

Again, that is your interpretation. The rules are specifically mentioned in the book, is shown by multiple characters and the Ars Arcanum at the end. Also the very first character to explain it this way is Kelsier himself, who is the exact individual we are discussing his understanding of. Kelsier knows and understands these rules, and it is his interpretation we are discussing. At this point I am just repeating myself, and is pointless for me to continue this. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

But I'm not using any "interpretation" when I'm outlining the differences in Copper and Bronze. These are the facts of their abilities as presented. They are not equal, because Copper does more than Bronze. That can't be denied.

 

Or can it? I'm interested if you have an explanation or example for Copper's additional effect having a direct opposite in what Bronze does.

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Navy Seon he/him]

No one metal is stronger than the other. I think.