FTL Travel

[Natans he/him]

Question, aside Scandrial do you guys think that anothers shard planets could have "magitek" spaceships/technology ?

 

I personally think that maybe Roshar fabrials have great potential do be used in "sci-fi tech" weapons and ships. (Gravity rifle, Shadesmare drive core).

 

And If Mistborn will have spaceships they must have some kind of "alien enemy" after all. The parshendi/rosharian alliance would be a nice alien enemy race. Think about a fight with allomaners against surgebinders and forms users =)

 

Man I need find a way to ask Brandon this =(

Edited January 31, 2014 by Natans

[Moogle]

I personally think that maybe Roshar fabrials have great potential do be used in "sci-fi tech" weapons and ships. (Gravity rifle, Shadesmare drive core).

 

Rosharan ships would be limited by Stormlight. I don't think they would be a very good space-faring planet. You do make a good point though that fabrials lead to really really cool tech.

[Natans he/him]

Rosharan ships would be limited by Stormlight. I don't think they would be a very good space-faring planet. You do make a good point though that fabrials lead to really really cool tech.

 

Brandon said that it's possible to fuel an magic system with another investidure, and not only this, if Rosharian could create a way to better store investidure/stormlight ( like when a full knight are supposed to hold stormlight perfectly) they could bypass this limitation.

 

Lift are able to convert food in investidure, so in theory it's possible =)

 

I think Scandrial FTL will time-travel related, so maybe Roshar could create a "slip space" "wormhole" drive core with the use of transportation.

 

=)

Edited January 31, 2014 by Natans

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

Rosharan ships would be limited by Stormlight. I don't think they would be a very good space-faring planet. You do make a good point though that fabrials lead to really really cool tech.

Wouldn't that depend on what Stormlight is? If it's pure investiture it might be possible to recharge the ships away from Roshar. Plus talking about a ships Gem Core just sounds cool. 

[Moogle]

Brandon said that it's possible to fuel an magic system with another investidure, and not only this, if Rosharian could create a way to better store investidure/stormlight ( like when a full knight are supposed to hold stormlight perfectly) they could bypass this limitation.

 

Wouldn't that depend on what Stormlight is? If it's pure investiture it might be possible to recharge the ships away from Roshar. Plus talking about a ships Gem Core just sounds cool. 

 

Okay, you guys win. A gem core would be so freaking amazing. I am imagining this five-foot wide gem floating and glowing with a blinding light and it's wonderful. And if it were charged with Breath, it could throw out rainbow colors like a prism and it would be fabulous and oh I want this.

 

As to recharging the ship, all of the Investiture we know of is very hard to get. Atium, lerasium, Breath, Stormlight is all very hard to 'recharge' with. The advantage that Allomancers have is that they can use metal (which in itself is not the Investiture, except for atium and lerasium) to get Investiture anywhere. Scadrian FTL ships can probably just drop off at a planet and get mining to recharge - something not possible for most others. (This assumes that Scadrians can burn any metal. WoB does say Allomancy would be easiest to get up and running on another planet... but does this mean they can jury-rig the Investiture on other planets easily? I want the sci-fi Mistborn trilogy faster.)

[Natans he/him]

Wouldn't that depend on what Stormlight is? If it's pure investiture it might be possible to recharge the ships away from Roshar. Plus talking about a ships Gem Core just sounds cool. 

 

Exactly my point. If It is possible if, for example, that they could capture raw investidure present in worlds like Sel(where the cognitive realm are overflood with it)  this could work.=)

 

Also would be nice have a something like this done right by Sanderson =)

 

*Atention breach at the RubyDrive Core*  

Captain - "Cut down IP(investidure power) flux if the main Gemhearts batteries and prepare Main Soulcaster guns to fire at my command, Let's turn this metal eating sucker in dust(literally) =)

 

 

 I want the sci-fi Mistborn trilogy faster.)

 I seconded that. After Alloy of law and Steelheart i kind get curious to see Brandon sci-fi works. Man where are lucky to have Brandon writing in so many genre =)

Edited January 31, 2014 by Natans

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 What if Sel instead of a drive created a tunnel/door to other worlds? POssibly able to accessed from both directions, but definitly one way travel.

[cris34b he/him]

I think Selish FTL is going to be a real challenge. First of all, it's (currently) only one way. Unless you find some other source than the Dor to power it, you could never return through the same method.

 

Secondly, if jumping from Elantris to Teod is risky, imagine how difficult it would be to jump from one spinning planet going several tenths of thousand kilometres per hour in a circular orbit onto another spinning planet moving several thousand kilometres per hour. On the plus side, the chances of hitting a wall is rather slim, on the negative side, the chances of actually hitting the planet at all is almost just as tiny.

 

The Scadrian Metallic Arts do have a way of producing FTL travel built into it, Brandon has said as much, but we have only guesses about how that is supposed to go.

I've actually thought about this. WoB is that Worldhopping from Sel is extremely hard, maybe this is why? You know, the super fast planet thing, and the possibility that without Elantris increasing the power of the Dor, you won't be able to get back without first making some sort of power-increasing charm first.

Edited February 6, 2014 by cris34b

[Aether he/him]

I've actually thought about this. WoB is that Worldhopping from Sel is extremely hard, maybe this is why? You know, the super fast planet thing, and the possibility that without Elantris increasing the power of the Dor, you won't be able to get back without first making some sort of power-increasing charm first.

If we permit ourselves to be slightly liberal with the definition, there are two kinds of Worldhopping:

1. Literal worldhopping, where you literaly "jump" from one world to another through either direct teleportation or some other means of FTL travel,
2. or what most Cosmere aware people mean by "Worldhopping", which is using the particular quirks of Shadesmar (id est the Cognitive Realm) to travel between worlds.

Why Selish Worldhopping is difficult has to do with the nature of Shadesmar on Sel^1,2,3, and is commonly thought because of the rampant Spiritual energy that is the Dor.

[Haelbarde he/him]

I think I might jump in and join this conversation, but first I want to read through Kurk's theories. I've got a few ideas, but Kurk seems to have spent time discussing similar ideas, so before I put my own thoughts down, I'll have a look at the groundwork he's laid in his theories.

What I do want to say here is this: I was looking at this before going to bed, and then lay in bed trying to think this ftl stuff through. I was thinking about the effects of gravity inside time bubbles, and what significance that has in relation to how they work, when this thought popped into my head:

“Natural laws?” Syl said, finding the concept amusing. “Laws are of men, Kaladin. Nature doesn’t have them!”

“If I toss something upward, it comes back down.”

“Except when it doesn’t.”

“It’s a law.”

“No,” Syl said, looking upward. “It’s more like… more like an agreement among friends.”

He looked at her, raising an eyebrow.

“We have to be consistent,” she said, leaning in conspiratorially. “Or we’ll break your brains.”

I can vouch for Syl. My brain broke when considering the fact that gravity didn't actually have to stay the same inside the bubble, but that it could be spren causing it to be the same or something like that...

EDIT 1 - I have a question - Are bubbles spherical? As in, do they extend into the surface of the planet? I've got some ideas on bubble anchors, so if anyone knows, it'd be helpful.

EDIT 2 - To whom is the travelling FTL relative to? If I experience 60 seconds, but in real space have traveled further than 18,000,000,000 m (1.8*10^10 or 18 billion meters), then from my perspective, I've traveled faster than light, even if relative to my port of origin, I took 5 minutes to reach my destination.

If we had a sphere, with a slider and all the passengers in the center, and the sphere is accelerated to 0.1*c. The slider drops a bubble which doesn't contains the space in the middle of the sphere, but not the outside.^a If the slider holds this for 60 seconds, and the bubble is such that the the world around passes 20 quicker than inside the bubble, the ship has traveled 3.6*10^10 m. In the time that the slider and the passengers experienced, they should only have traveled 1.8*10^9 m, but have in fact traversed a distance 20 times great, something which would require travelling at 2c to achieve. So for them, they've travelled FTL, while in the real world, have not.

a - This is assuming the bubble will be anchored to the sphere. Preferably the sphere would have some form of artifical gravity. Perhaps a spinning ring would work better.

EDIT 3 - Can allomantic powers effect metals outside of a Cadmium or Bendalloy Bubble?

EDIT 4 - Just noting that at 0.1*c, relativity would come into play, and time dilation/length contraction and all that would come into play, so the exact number i used would probably be slightly off. If that's an issue, reduce the speed by a few factors of 10, and then just increase the power of the slider (if one slider is unable to handle it, drop in multiple sliders forming bubbles inside of each other to increase the amount by which those in side are slowed down relative to the outside

Edited February 8, 2014 by Haelbarde

[Swimmingly he/him]

Unfortunately, any discrete object is either part of or not part of a time bubble. So the ground is not included, as not enough of Scadrial is inside the bubble to encompass the whole place (unless nicrosil maybe?)

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Haelbarde

 

I appreciate the regard. Don't feel like you have to read through everything I've written on the subject, though: a lot of it is inaccurate/out-of-date at this point. I'll be sure to mention it if you run afoul of any existing evidence/theories, I think.

[Haelbarde he/him]

@Kurkistan

I'd like to read it all. It is interesting, but I'd like to see if any of it matches up with my own ideas. And thanks. I need to sit down and think about the bubbles more. Above is cheap FTL - its the allomantic equivalent of being in stasis while travelling between planets. I want Star Trek (ie. Alcubierre drive) style FTL.

Slightly off topic : Do you get called 'Captain Kirk' at all? Particularly when discussing FTL travel?

[Kurkistan he/him]

I also may or may not have a few thoughts on time bubbles... (sorry  )

 

OT: Exactly once before that I can recall, actually. And I don't think it was in reference to FTL-theorizing.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Captain Kurk

[Haelbarde he/him]

@Captain Kurk - I had noticed that thread and started reading through it, but not particularly far. I was intending on working through that one before thinking further about my other ftl ideas. I have also since noticed you've put up what I said above (in wayyyy more detail) in 'Yet another FTL theory'.

I think I'm just going to start refering to you as Captain Kurk from now on.

EDIT 1 - I was looking at the distending theory : Can we treat time as having density? For example, in a Bendalloy bubble, time is compressed, ie more dense. Could Snell's law apply? n1*theta1 = n2*theta2 where n1=compression rate of bendalloy bubble, n2=1 for normal time (side question: if the bendalloy bubble were in another bubble with n2 be the compresion rate of the other bubble - possibly, if point of refernce is in normal time, and you're analysing the interaction of something passing through from the outer bubble to the inner buble). n>1 for bendalloy, n<1 for cadmium?

What happens if you shot something at the highest point of the sphere? Would it still be thrown around, or would it go straight?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Haelbarde

[Kurkistan he/him]

If you insist.

[Swimmingly he/him]

My brain gets confused here. I choose to assume that the energy required to maintain an object's differing speeds while timebubbled is simply pulled from Preservation (bendalloy) or dumped back in (cadmium) - in other words, everything DOES actually move faster while bendalloyed.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Another few questions -
You may have missed some of my edits of my posts, but there's two questions I'm curious about:

• Can compression factors be used as refractive indicies in Snell's law: n1*theta1 = n2*theta2? n>1 for pulsing, 0<n<1 for sliding?                                                                                                                                                                                          - Time is being pulled in/squeezed inside a bubble (for bendalloy) or pushed away/stretched (for cadmium), essentially               becoming more/less dense respectively
  • What happens if you shoot radially from the center of the bubble? Easiest is for a Pulser to shoot directly upwards upon forming a bubble. Will it exit straight? or will it still shoot of randomly? 
• Can allomantic powers effect things outside of the influence of a sphere? Whether its pushing/pulling metal, cloaking/seeking, charming. If so, how is it effected?

The new question I had was regarding wormholes. The two scientifically plausible FTL travel methods are Star Trek-style Alcubierre drives, or Stargate-style wormholes (essentially coming down to bending space in either method). I've seen lots of discusion of space bubbles, but what about other dimensional travel....

Which has just reminded me what really was my new question. Worldhopping. Is Worldhopping not FTL travel? To worldhop, you enter Shadesmar, traverse some distance in Shadesmar, then pop out again. I believe the idea is that space in Shadesmar is effected by what exists in the Physical Realm. For example, on Roshar, where there is lots of people, there is lots of space in Shadesmar. In areas where there is not much in the way of sentient life, (oceans) the space is less than its real world equivalent. Thus, the great void of space should be very much constricted in Shadesmar, so travelling in Shadesmar, while there is a distance to traverse, is much, much less than in the real world. Really, Shadesmar = Hyperspace.

 

The 7th order of the KR has it good - Transformation and Transportation. Assuming that Transformation allows easy access to Shadesmar, transportation should make it real easy to hop to different planets.

 

But, in what way does Allomancy influence Shadesmar, and does it allow passage to Shadesmar? TBH, entering shadesmar (aka, the cognitive realm) is sorta odd. How does what give up a physical form entirely to become a concept, and then return. Spren are able to, and seem to facilitate it, but also seem to be unique to Roshar, though must exist in all Shadesmar in some form, if the Syl quote i referenced before is anything to go on (Laws of Nature are man made, not a fact, rather being an agreed arrangement of how the world works. These laws are universal however, which results in the question, an agreement between whom. Spren (on Roshar) obviously have agreed to enforce it (most of the time), but who'd they agree with? Possibly its an agreement between Shards (ie, Honor, Devotion, etc.) which would make sense - All worlds have the same rules, and each magic system allows for direct manipulations of said rules, within reason, and in a way which has defined limits/rules. This would then ask the question, what about space/non shardworlds, ie, anything not direcltly influenced by one of the 16 shards? Is it too much to assume that these 'Man-made Laws' (essentially man's way of working out the agreed on rules) apply  to the whole universe. If they do, then its an agreement between the shards and some other power - Adonalsium? Which is slightly wierd, in that Adonalsium didn't really have a way of directly communicating with the shards, as they are a result of it splitting, though seeing as Adonalsium likely splintered voluntarily (I reckon Ym's religion of One splitting to be completed by its many parts gaining all experience could be related to Adonalsium/have roots in it), could have formed the Shards in a way that they would agree on a consistent constants in which to experiment in.)

 

Sorry about the wall of text, and if this entire post is a bit confused/running in circles. Welcome to how my brain works. This is sorta a transcription of my thoughts as they jumped into my head after each other.

 

EDIT 1 - Just noting here - Wow, the wall is even bigger when viewed as a published post

 

EDIT 2 - We already know that Dermoux has world hopped, though being an Atium Misting, I wonder if that means he was assisted by a 17th Sharder, rather than through his own ability - I don't see how seeing the future would allow access to Shadesmar, and then allow world hopping. 

So when we are talking about FTL, are we specifically talking about warping space in the Physical realm?

And how on earth do allomancers get to Shadesmar....

 

EDIT 3 - And does Shadesmar remind anyone of the Waygate from WoT - just thinking, the Dor reminds me of that evil soulleaching mist stuffs

 

EDIT 4 - Atium bendalloy/cadmium alloys...

 

EDIT 5 - ... Targeted Time Bubbles?

 

EDIT 6 - Was there a quote regarding FTL being fueled by the Metallic Arts' Mechanical form?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Haelbarde

[Kurkistan he/him]

Note: Well that was irritating. I was about to post when the server ate my message. Teaches me not to copy it to the clipboard first. Once more unto the breach, I suppose.
 

Another few questions -
You may have missed some of my edits of my posts, but there's two questions I'm curious about:

• Can compression factors be used as refractive indicies in Snell's law: n1*theta1 = n2*theta2? n>1 for pulsing, 0<n<1 for sliding?                                                                                                                                                                                          - Time is being pulled in/squeezed inside a bubble (for bendalloy) or pushed away/stretched (for cadmium), essentially               becoming more/less dense respectively
  • What happens if you shoot radially from the center of the bubble? Easiest is for a Pulser to shoot directly upwards upon forming a bubble. Will it exit straight? or will it still shoot of randomly? 
• Can allomantic powers effect things outside of the influence of a sphere? Whether its pushing/pulling metal, cloaking/seeking, charming. If so, how is it effected?

 

Yes, I did miss your edits. My apologies.
 
On Snell: 
 
I would also hazard that something shot radially from the center of a bubble wouldn't be deflected. That's mostly just intuition, though.
 
Good question on allomancy reaching outside/into the bubbles. It's been discussed.
 

The new question I had was regarding wormholes. The two scientifically plausible FTL travel methods are Star Trek-style Alcubierre drives, or Stargate-style wormholes (essentially coming down to bending space in either method). I've seen lots of discusion of space bubbles, but what about other dimensional travel....

 
I don't really regard going into other dimensions (aka Shadesmar) as properly FTL in the way that Brandon's discussed it.
 

Which has just reminded me what really was my new question. Worldhopping. Is Worldhopping not FTL travel? To worldhop, you enter Shadesmar, traverse some distance in Shadesmar, then pop out again. I believe the idea is that space in Shadesmar is effected by what exists in the Physical Realm. For example, on Roshar, where there is lots of people, there is lots of space in Shadesmar. In areas where there is not much in the way of sentient life, (oceans) the space is less than its real world equivalent. Thus, the great void of space should be very much constricted in Shadesmar, so travelling in Shadesmar, while there is a distance to traverse, is much, much less than in the real world. Really, Shadesmar = Hyperspace.
 
The 7th order of the KR has it good - Transformation and Transportation. Assuming that Transformation allows easy access to Shadesmar, transportation should make it real easy to hop to different planets.

 
It is indeed a widely held theory that Shadesmar expands/contracts depending on how much Cognitive activity there is in a region. I fully support this theory, and would be very surprised if it was false, especially given Brandon's comments on the non-existence of Shadesmar-proper in interplanetary space.
 

But, in what way does Allomancy influence Shadesmar, and does it allow passage to Shadesmar?

 
As I said, I doubt that Allomantic FTL relies upon Shadesmar, but I suppose it is a fair question since some kind of Allomancy/Feruchemy probably does the job.
 

TBH, entering shadesmar (aka, the cognitive realm) is sorta odd. How does what give up a physical form entirely to become a concept, and then return. Spren are able to, and seem to facilitate it, but also seem to be unique to Roshar, though must exist in all Shadesmar in some form, if the Syl quote i referenced before is anything to go on (Laws of Nature are man made, not a fact, rather being an agreed arrangement of how the world works.
 
These laws are universal however, which results in the question, an agreement between whom. Spren (on Roshar) obviously have agreed to enforce it (most of the time), but who'd they agree with? Possibly its an agreement between Shards (ie, Honor, Devotion, etc.) which would make sense - All worlds have the same rules, and each magic system allows for direct manipulations of said rules, within reason, and in a way which has defined limits/rules. This would then ask the question, what about space/non shardworlds, ie, anything not direcltly influenced by one of the 16 shards? Is it too much to assume that these 'Man-made Laws' (essentially man's way of working out the agreed on rules) apply  to the whole universe. If they do, then its an agreement between the shards and some other power - Adonalsium? Which is slightly wierd, in that Adonalsium didn't really have a way of directly communicating with the shards, as they are a result of it splitting, though seeing as Adonalsium likely splintered voluntarily (I reckon Ym's religion of One splitting to be completed by its many parts gaining all experience could be related to Adonalsium/have roots in it), could have formed the Shards in a way that they would agree on a consistent constants in which to experiment in.)

 
I think you may be placing a tad too much weight on Syl's comments. True, it seems that gravity, and perhaps even all the laws of physics, is Spiritually-based. Syl also seems to rather casually enable the manipulation of gravity. But this doesn't entail that all of physics is held together by gum and string: rather, just that it can be manipulated with a bit more ease than we're used to.
 

Sorry about the wall of text, and if this entire post is a bit confused/running in circles. Welcome to how my brain works. This is sorta a transcription of my thoughts as they jumped into my head after each other.
 
EDIT 1 - Just noting here - Wow, the wall is even bigger when viewed as a published post

 
No problem. I'm really not one to talk about either wall-o-texting or the ease with which posts can be parsed.
 

EDIT 2 - We already know that Dermoux has world hopped, though being an Atium Misting, I wonder if that means he was assisted by a 17th Sharder, rather than through his own ability - I don't see how seeing the future would allow access to Shadesmar, and then allow world hopping.

 
Rest assured: Atium is not related to Scadrian worldhopping.
 

So when we are talking about FTL, are we specifically talking about warping space in the Physical realm?

 
I usually talk of somehow traversing the Physical: I think this is suggested by how Brandon discusses the nature of the third Mistborn trilogy as SciFi: It'd rather undermine the point if SciFi-Scadrial used fundamentally the same world-traversing method as their Renaissance-technology counterparts. We also have Brandon saying that Scadrian FTL involves "propulsion", which implies movement through normal space.
 

And how on earth do allomancers get to Shadesmar....

 
A new godmetal alloy? Lerasium burned Allomantically or used Feruchemically? An unkown use/combination of existing metals? There are a lot of possiblities.
 
Also, as you suggested, Demoux in particular could be side-along apparating.
 

EDIT 6 - Was there a quote regarding FTL being fueled by the Metallic Arts' Mechanical form?

 
There is no such quote: I can honestly tell you that I'd know if there was. There is quite a lot of speculation on that front, though.

 

---

 

My apologies if my post is brusque/incomplete: it was a bit easier writing it a second time around, but I was mainly focused on re-writing my main points as quickly/accurately as possible before I forgot them.