Hemalurgy Szeth

[Swimmingly]

If Szeth was spiked with hDuralumin holding Feruchemical nicrosil and given a metal mind, could he get around his little stormlight-retention duration issue? Could he save up stormlight and then POW use it all at once on a binding?

[Oudeis]

No idea; Feruchemical nicrosil is one of the least understood things on Scadrial.

[PorridgeBrick]

I suspect he could: if Feruchemical nicrosil stores untyped, pure Investiture, then that will likely work because that's pretty much what stormlight is, and if it stores typed investiture then it'll definitely work since he can store the stormlight exactly as it is. Though he might not be able to store much, since Scadrial is pretty low on Investiture.

[Oudeis]

I suspect he could: if Feruchemical nicrosil stores untyped, pure Investiture, then that will likely work because that's pretty much what stormlight is, and if it stores typed investiture then it'll definitely work since he can store the stormlight exactly as it is. Though he might not be able to store much, since Scadrial is pretty low on Investiture.

 

There are other options. It's been suggested that Feruchemical nicrosil stores not investiture-fuel, but ones capacity to perform Investiture; thus, it would store Szeth's ability to perform lashings, not the stormlight. Which is just one theory out there. I'm just saying, there are more than the two options you suggest, prolly other options I haven't heard of, and we have no real way to know which is right.

[PorridgeBrick]

I suppose you are right. Though if you do store your capacity to perform Investiture, how would that even work? Would it allow him to be more efficient with his stormlight, or somehow make all his lashings way stronger? I understand that it's totally hypothetical, and only one of many options but it still seems like that would be really... Weird. And would that even be storing Investiture any more, and rather storing bits of your Spiritweb, since that's would allow you to perform Investiture?

[Oudeis]

It is strongly suspected, if not proven, that most of the raw energy for Investiture comes from the spiritual realm. Atium happens because of a leak from the spiritual. I'm sure I've heard that highstorms have something to do with the spiritual realm. I could be mistaken.

 

However, if "the raw power of Investiture" is spiritual in nature, then why not store your spiritweb? It, being your spiritual aspect, might be made up of the same stuff as Investiture, anyway.

[Swimmingly]

My understanding is that Spiritwebs are bits of Shardic power "stapled" to your cognitive and physical aspects, kind of like a layer of a sandwich. It contains things that are essential to you, like magical power, sentience, etc. as well as the framework your body acts through. Basically, your nervous system but magical. There seem to be tags on the web that contain things like strength, speed, etc. Raw investiture is trickier - wielded by a shard, it can do anything, focused through an agent using a focus, it's much more specific. So the investiture stored by Feruchemical nicrosil seems unlikely to be your Spiritweb itself, as many other metals already do that but to specific parts of it. It makes little sense, to me, to have a trump metal like that capable of storing everything that can be obtained normally - it should be a god metal to do that(ooooh lerasium shiny). Being able to store raw Investiture would be useless, then, for anyone not able to collect it, which would be everyone on Scadrial. Because it can be used in so many ways, however, and seems to keep for a while in the physical realm, Szeth is probably holding pretty much raw investiture until it does something exiting like repair broken bones in scant moments, invert your ability to not be sucked into the vacuum of space from the ground, animate hulking abominations of pure elemental form, or make getting stabbed with a penknife more painful than it should be.

[Oudeis]

My understanding is that Spiritwebs are bits of Shardic power "stapled" to your cognitive and physical aspects, kind of like a layer of a sandwich. It contains things that are essential to you, like magical power, sentience, etc. as well as the framework your body acts through. Basically, your nervous system but magical. There seem to be tags on the web that contain things like strength, speed, etc. Raw investiture is trickier - wielded by a shard, it can do anything, focused through an agent using a focus, it's much more specific. So the investiture stored by Feruchemical nicrosil seems unlikely to be your Spiritweb itself, as many other metals already do that but to specific parts of it. It makes little sense, to me, to have a trump metal like that capable of storing everything that can be obtained normally - it should be a god metal to do that(ooooh lerasium shiny).

 

Some minor confusion, I think. Porridge was talking about how "your ability to start an Investiture" was a part of your spiritweb, and therefore could not be stored in a nicrosilmind. My only point was to say that since your spiritweb itself is possibly similar to Investiture itself, that you could, in fact, "store" this specific part, the way you store a memory, or the way you store the power of your muscles. From what you say, how tags on your web contain things like strength, it seems as though you and I might agree on that basic concept, the idea that it is sometimes possible to store specific aspects of your spiritweb (prolly not the whole thing at once; apart from being a trump, we've seen from Shardblade wounds what happens when your spiritweb is entirely detached from your body) is something we both seem to agree is possible.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion! I should have been more clear as to what parts of the things I was saying referenced which things Porridge said.

[Swimmingly]

Some minor confusion, I think. Porridge was talking about how "your ability to start an Investiture" was a part of your spiritweb, and therefore could not be stored in a nicrosilmind. My only point was to say that since your spiritweb itself is possibly similar to Investiture itself, that you could, in fact, "store" this specific part, the way you store a memory, or the way you store the power of your muscles. From what you say, how tags on your web contain things like strength, it seems as though you and I might agree on that basic concept, the idea that it is sometimes possible to store specific aspects of your spiritweb (prolly not the whole thing at once; apart from being a trump, we've seen from Shardblade wounds what happens when your spiritweb is entirely detached from your body) is something we both seem to agree is possible.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion! I should have been more clear as to what parts of the things I was saying referenced which things Porridge said.

From the way Feruchemy works, (multiple metalminds for closely related bits of Spiritweb, e.g. different tinminds for sight and smell), I think Lerasium/Harmonium would be a Feruchemy trump the same way Atium trumps Hemalurgy; you can store anything with it, but not all at once - a lerasium/harmoniummind could essentially act like any metalmind you wanted. I actually think it more likely to be the latter, because Allomantic lerasium allows you to burn any metal, an allomancy trump and hAtium lets you steal anything, a hemalurgy trump - it would fit thematically to have fHarmonium be feruchemy's trump. This is assuming that it exists - I think it could be the alloy of Lerasium and Atium, possibly with slightly more Atium to make up for humanity's Innate investiture, but who knows? Hey, that gives me an idea of what Sazed did with some of the extra Ruin power he had, if a mix of that and Preservation with slightly more Ruin is harmonium - he could dispose of the extra ruin by turning it into something unusable allomantically or hemalurgically, but able to do anything feruchemically. Wow, I digressed a little there.

[PorridgeBrick]

Some minor confusion, I think. Porridge was talking about how "your ability to start an Investiture" was a part of your spiritweb, and therefore could not be stored in a nicrosilmind. My only point was to say that since your spiritweb itself is possibly similar to Investiture itself, that you could, in fact, "store" this specific part, the way you store a memory, or the way you store the power of your muscles. From what you say, how tags on your web contain things like strength, it seems as though you and I might agree on that basic concept, the idea that it is sometimes possible to store specific aspects of your spiritweb (prolly not the whole thing at once; apart from being a trump, we've seen from Shardblade wounds what happens when your spiritweb is entirely detached from your body) is something we both seem to agree is possible.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion! I should have been more clear as to what parts of the things I was saying referenced which things Porridge said.

I wasn't actually saying it isn't possible to store bits of your Spiritweb- sorry if it sounded like that. I'm sure you can, since that sounds very much like what Feruchemical aluminum is doing with Identity. I was more focusing on the definitions- if you're storing the bits of your sDNA/Spiritweb that give you your magic powers, would you really call that "storing Investiture"? And if the definition of "Investiture" being stored is loose enough to include the Spiritweb, I think it'd certainly be loose enough to store something like Stormlight, which is basically pure power manifested quasi-physically.

From the way Feruchemy works, (multiple metalminds for closely related bits of Spiritweb, e.g. different tinminds for sight and smell), I think Lerasium/Harmonium would be a Feruchemy trump the same way Atium trumps Hemalurgy; you can store anything with it, but not all at once - a lerasium/harmoniummind could essentially act like any metalmind you wanted. I actually think it more likely to be the latter, because Allomantic lerasium allows you to burn any metal, an allomancy trump and hAtium lets you steal anything, a hemalurgy trump - it would fit thematically to have fHarmonium be feruchemy's trump. This is assuming that it exists - I think it could be the alloy of Lerasium and Atium, possibly with slightly more Atium to make up for humanity's Innate investiture, but who knows? Hey, that gives me an idea of what Sazed did with some of the extra Ruin power he had, if a mix of that and Preservation with slightly more Ruin is harmonium - he could dispose of the extra ruin by turning it into something unusable allomantically or hemalurgically, but able to do anything feruchemically. Wow, I digressed a little there.

That does seems to be the most likely possibilty for what Harmonium does. And i'm sure there is Harmonium, or something like it, based on this quote.

FIRE ARCADIA

Are there 50 Allomantic Metals?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nearly. Does Harmony have a metal?

FIRE ARCADIA

Is that an alloy of Lerasium and Atium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You're along the right lines.

I'm not so sure that you would need to have more Ruin in the metal than Preservation, though. That seems a little more like something to grant Allomantic atium to me, though maybe the proportion would need to be reversed for that.

[Oudeis]

And if the definition of "Investiture" being stored is loose enough to include the Spiritweb, I think it'd certainly be loose enough to store something like Stormlight, which is basically pure power manifested quasi-physically.

 

My apologies for misrepresenting you.

 

I'm not saying the definition is loose... I'm saying it's, as yet, ill-defined. I just mean that, "Stores Investiture" might be shorthand for a clearer definition, like "It stores whatever formal system of Investiture a person manifests". I'm not sure if anyone has a better, more specific definition yet. I'm just saying that what tiny little bit we have is so small, we can't possibly start to make any assumptions about it, not even to say "it lets you store raw investiture".

[Swimmingly]

I wasn't actually saying it isn't possible to store bits of your Spiritweb- sorry if it sounded like that. I'm sure you can, since that sounds very much like what Feruchemical aluminum is doing with Identity. I was more focusing on the definitions- if you're storing the bits of your sDNA/Spiritweb that give you your magic powers, would you really call that "storing Investiture"? And if the definition of "Investiture" being stored is loose enough to include the Spiritweb, I think it'd certainly be loose enough to store something like Stormlight, which is basically pure power manifested quasi-physically.

That does seems to be the most likely possibilty for what Harmonium does. And i'm sure there is Harmonium, or something like it, based on this quote.

FIRE ARCADIA

Are there 50 Allomantic Metals?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nearly. Does Harmony have a metal?

FIRE ARCADIA

Is that an alloy of Lerasium and Atium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You're along the right lines.

I'm not so sure that you would need to have more Ruin in the metal than Preservation, though. That seems a little more like something to grant Allomantic atium to me, though maybe the proportion would need to be reversed for that.

So, 16 standard, 16 alloyed with Lerasium, 16 alloyed with Atium, Lerasium and atium, and Harmonium makes 51. Is it possible that everybody is a misting, they just don't have access to their metal? With that many allomantic metals, it's a possibility. Though I just remembered that the lerasium alloys make mistings of their alloyed metals - who can burn atium alloys? And where did the name malatium come from, if it doesn't mean "bad atium"? 

[Gamma Fiend]

And where did the name malatium come from, if it doesn't mean "bad atium"? 

lol!

[PorridgeBrick]

So, 16 standard, 16 alloyed with Lerasium, 16 alloyed with Atium, Lerasium and atium, and Harmonium makes 51. Is it possible that everybody is a misting, they just don't have access to their metal? With that many allomantic metals, it's a possibility. Though I just remembered that the lerasium alloys make mistings of their alloyed metals - who can burn atium alloys? And where did the name malatium come from, if it doesn't mean "bad atium"?

Actually, it's not just 51- that would be too easy.

17TH SHARD

Are there a limited amount of atium and lerasium alloys for each metal?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmm, yes…I suppose there would be but there are…

17TH SHARD

More than sixteen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, way more than sixteen.

17TH SHARD

Oh wow. Okay. That's fascinating. More than sixteen and less than infinite.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

So it's certainly possible everyone is a misting and we just don't know about it. And there is supposedly a different effect for Lerasium if you're an allomancer already, so maybe you actually could be a misting for it or its alloys if you were born that way. No idea on the malatium tho. Maybe some Seer tried burning it and got sick, so he just called it bad.

[Swimmingly]

Brandon seems to have a thing for bad french. Roshar, for example, sounds exactly like rocher. French for "rock". 

[Oudeis]

Brandon seems to have a thing for bad french. Roshar, for example, sounds exactly like rocher. French for "rock". 

 

...surely a french word written as "rocher" would be pronounced "roh-shay"? I realize it's still close, but there are only so many phonemes in the world. The french word for "a lot" sounds almost exactly like one of the Japanese personal pronouns, and that's simple coincidence.

 

You seem to be referring to a phenomenon called a "false cognate", where a word in one language happens to sound like a word in another, when there's no real connection there. It happens pretty frequently.

[Bean]

rocher means rock? So when I eat a ferrero rocher... I love those things.

 

I think we are jumping a bit far (says the pot to the kettle) ahead by assuming that strength is tied into your spiritweb. We know that your strength can be influenced by thing that are part of your spiritweb (Allomantic pewter Feruchemical pewter h...Iron?). Your spiritweb is the spiritual equivalent of your DNA, but I don't think its your DNA itself (could be wrong on this). A persons natural strength is part of their regular DNA plus whatever muscles they have built on their own.

 

Storing part of your spiritweb seems to me less likely. Changes that we have seen to peoples spiritwebs have always been bigger deals. They change you. Hemalurgy makes you not quite human as does becoming a savant. Burning Hemalurgic spikes gives you weird soul-splicing. Hemalurgy didn't change Spook much that we saw, but it was one spike in a non-critical area. If your spiritweb was altered temporarily every time you feruchemically stored, the casual adjustment of who you are even for a bit flaunts the importance of your spiritual makeup.

 

I could be wrong on this and I (as always) have very little in the way of evidence, but I just thought I would share my thoughts.

[PorridgeBrick]

Hemalurgy works by cutting off bits of Spiritweb and grafting it onto others. Hemalurgy can steal strength, ergo strength is in some way controlled by one's spiritweb.

And while most things don't seem to have a big effect and are thus not storing your Spiritweb, think of Identity. That is pretty integral to you- and likely determined by your Spiritweb. While we haven't seen it in action, and haven't seen a survivor of hemalurgy, they sound like they'd have similar effects- you're losing part of who you are, though storing Identity would be temporary whereas hemalurgy is not.

[Oudeis]

rocher means rock? So when I eat a ferrero rocher... I love those things.

 

I think we are jumping a bit far (says the pot to the kettle) ahead by assuming that strength is tied into your spiritweb. We know that your strength can be influenced by thing that are part of your spiritweb (Allomantic pewter Feruchemical pewter h...Iron?). Your spiritweb is the spiritual equivalent of your DNA, but I don't think its your DNA itself (could be wrong on this). A persons natural strength is part of their regular DNA plus whatever muscles they have built on their own.

 

Storing part of your spiritweb seems to me less likely. Changes that we have seen to peoples spiritwebs have always been bigger deals. They change you. Hemalurgy makes you not quite human as does becoming a savant. Burning Hemalurgic spikes gives you weird soul-splicing. Hemalurgy didn't change Spook much that we saw, but it was one spike in a non-critical area. If your spiritweb was altered temporarily every time you feruchemically stored, the casual adjustment of who you are even for a bit flaunts the importance of your spiritual makeup.

 

I could be wrong on this and I (as always) have very little in the way of evidence, but I just thought I would share my thoughts.

 

Interesting... Ferrero Rocher appears to be a mix of Italian and French. That is neither here-nor-there.

 

I think there's a WoB out there where he says that the metals in Feruchemy are grouped not by physical, mental, temporal and enhancement, but by physical, cognitive and mental. Does anyone have the quote to hand?