Renarin, Hierocrate

[DreamEternal]

WARNING: I AM NOT SURE IF I BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING THEORY IS TRUE, BUT I WILL TRY TO CONVINCE YOU ANYWAY

WARNING2: THIS IS NOT A "RENARIN WILL GO EVIL" THEORY, EVEN IF IT MAY LOOK LIKE THAT

You must be wondering the meaning of the title of this thread, and your minds must be wandering throught dark places, as did mine as I conjoined the pieces of this Frankenstein's Monster of a theory. I'd post the fragments that lead me to these (mis)conclusions, but my e-book has been misbeheaving.

1.What we know:

1.1: The Hierocracy suppressed knowledge from before the Recreance.

1.2: They tried to conquer the world with a justification scarily similar to Dalinar's commands to unify.

1.3: They were very secretive, esoterical and claimed to have the power of prophecy.

1.4: Many of the precepts of modern vorinism were created in opposition to the Hierocracy.

Now, things get interesting:

1.5: We know an order of Radiants did not forswear, but entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the others.

1.6: The Truthwatchers were secretive, esoteric, and did not readily share knowledge or speak of their actions.

1.7: If Renarin is any indication, the Truthwatchers have the power of prophecy.

1.8: While we know Renarin couldn't have progressed to whatever is the truthwatcher equivalent of a second oath knight until some time between bonding his shardblade and entering the big duel, we have no idea how long he has been bond to Glys.

2.What this thread is about:

To put it simply, the Truthwatchers were the order that didn't forswear, instead slowly fading from view and taking over the church. After the Sunmaker defeated the Hierocracy, they disappeared again and infiltrated the Ardency and various governments and secret societies around Roshar, becoming a conspiracy within other conspiracies.

Knowing the son of one of the most important men in Roshar was compatible with the order, they contacted him in secret, perhaps while Adolin and Dalinar were at Shinovar, promising to heal his epilepsy if he joined them and became their sleeper agent, to act as an intermediary with the new orders if so they wished.

Of course, Renarin is neither a traitor nor an idiot, and the Truthwatchers knew that. So they taught him, told him part of their goals, let him know they weren't telling all the truth, and allowed him to refuse to cooperate if he wanted. They convinced him he was protecting his family and gaining the opportunity to follow his dreams, but at the same time could walk away if he wanted. And they never told him enough for him to be a threat, and he knew it.

So, after they decided he would prove loyal enough, they secretely sent him a spren as part of his initiation. A spren who would give him forbidden powers, leave him in fear, drive him apart from others. A spren that, after remembering enough, will send Renarin back to them, where he will be welcomed by those who truly understand him, and he will become one of them. A Hierocrate.

EDIT: changed the last paragraph, since it was supposed to be about possible future events.

EDIT2:I think I may have convinced myself. Still unsure.

EDIT3:

3.Amaram Strikes Back:

One glaring flaw in this thery I forgot to adress is how the Sons of Honor, who want to bring back the Hierocracy, are connected to the Truthwatchers.

Since the SoH seem horribly misguided, I'd say they aren't truly directly descended from the Hierocracy, but a group of people frustrated with modern vorinism who want to bring back the "good old days", and are most likely being manipulated by Odium. The true Hierocrates are just shaking their heads in disbelief and trying to find a way to use them to their purposes, whatever are they.

Edited November 20, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Khyrindor he/him]

Interesting. I think I'd buy that the Truthwatchers took over in the Heirocracy, but I don't think they're around today.

[Cemci she/her]

Interesting theory, but they 'sent' him a spren? How would they do this? As far as we know, spren are either sent by other spren (Pattern) or decide to go on their own (Syl). I'm not sure the Truthwatchers as an order would be able to compel spren to bond other potential Truthwatchers - if Kaladin told Syl to get other honourspren into the physical world, do we have any indication she would be able to do that, let alone even have contact with other honourspren?

[DreamEternal]

Interesting theory, but they 'sent' him a spren? How would they do this? As far as we know, spren are either sent by other spren (Pattern) or decide to go on their own (Syl). I'm not sure the Truthwatchers as an order would be able to compel spren to bond other potential Truthwatchers - if Kaladin told Syl to get other honourspren into the physical world, do we have any indication she would be able to do that, let alone even have contact with other honourspren?

We know that even orders without transportation or soulcasting can look into shadesmar, since Kaladin once did it. I just think they are working together with the Truthwatcher spren in shadesmar and after some kind of ritual asked them to send one to Renarin. No compeling, only cooperation.

Edited November 19, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Charononus]

I don't buy any of it.

 

With how the honorblades seem to all be in shinovar,  and how the shin seem to have a law before all things going on.  (Szeth was a product of his culture) I think the skybreakers did survive and are in Shinovar. 

[DreamEternal]

I don't buy any of it.

With how the honorblades seem to all be in shinovar, and how the shin seem to have a law before all things going on. (Szeth was a product of his culture) I think the skybreakers did survive and are in Shinovar.

And Nalan plans to use his Skybreakers to go after those arrogant mortals who dared to not forswear? That does sound interesting, althought I would prefer to think that Nalan's Skybreakers are the real deal. Anyway, I myself don't think the theory I posted here is likely, but you do have to admit the strange similarities between the Truthwatchers and the Hierocracy.

EDIT: I am trying to add a link to this thread to my sig, but it doens't work. Can anyone help?

EDIT2: I think it works now.

Edited November 20, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Charononus]

And Nalan plans to use his Skybreakers to go after those arrogant mortals who dared to not forswear? That does sound interesting, althought I would prefer to think that Nalan's Skybreakers are the real deal. Anyway, I myself don't think the theory I posted here is likely, but you do have to admit the strange similarities between the Truthwatchers and the Hierocracy.

EDIT: I am trying to add a link to this thread to my sig, but it doens't work. Can anyone help?

EDIT2: I think it works now.

Well honestly I think Nalan is crazy. He may follow laws, but his perceptions are completely skewed to where you can't really trust a thing he says.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Very interesting. I think that the Truthwatchers very well may be linked to the Hierocracy if they are the order that didn't foreswear. The Skybreaker theory also has merit, although I do wonder if their spren would be able to stay in Shinovar for very long.

 

As to whether Truthwatchers could send a spren...

Well, we do know that a KR told Dalinar in one of his visions that he would probably be accepted into one of the orders if he went to Urithiru. So it seems that there is some way for potential Radiants to be selected by either the KR or Spren in some sort of training program.

[DreamEternal]

As to whether Truthwatchers could send a spren...

Well, we do know that a KR told Dalinar in one of his visions that he would probably be accepted into one of the orders if he went to Urithiru. So it seems that there is some way for potential Radiants to be selected by either the KR or Spren in some sort of training program.

True. My alternative theory for the Skybreakers being the ones who didn't forswear also involves a cooperation between the Knights and the highspren leadership in Shadesmar. I would probably post it, but it isn't all that original and most of it was borrowed from other people. Plus, I dislike posting theories because my e-book misbehaves and skips whole pages when I try to search for especific words instead of reading the book in order.

[Charononus]

 

As to whether Truthwatchers could send a spren...

Well, we do know that a KR told Dalinar in one of his visions that he would probably be accepted into one of the orders if he went to Urithiru. So it seems that there is some way for potential Radiants to be selected by either the KR or Spren in some sort of training program.

My take on what Dalinar was told was that he would have become a squire,  and if you think about it it,  it would make sense to have knights rising out of the squires as they would be put into the same types of situations as radiants and thus would have plenty of opportunities to attract a spren. 

[DreamEternal]

My take on what Dalinar was told was that he would have become a squire, and if you think about it it, it would make sense to have knights rising out of the squires as they would be put into the same types of situations as radiants and thus would have plenty of opportunities to attract a spren.

Perhaps, but the kind of people who become squires is often very different from their Knight. I think that while what you said is true, there is also a process in wich the Knights recomend possible initiates for the spren, to make sure the newly bond spren and the Radiant have proper instruction. Of course, that depends on how far goes the ability of a Radiant or group of Radiants to contact Shadesmar without the surges.