Spoliers/Theory: Why did Syl "die" when she did?

[Moogle]

C'mon, he's at least as reliable a source as Teft.

 

 

I laughed. I was going to make a similar joke, but decided against it.

 

Also:

Having reread a bunch of scenes, I'm giving the theory that Syl was actually dead more weight. I note in particular this part:

Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.

He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.

HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.

“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.” The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.

I don’t care.

HE WILL KILL YOU.

• First of all, note that Kaladin begins to hear shouting. It's very quiet. My thought here is that Syl and the Stormfather having been having a shouting match for quite a while, and only now Kaladin is tuning in. I doubt the first thing the newly-revived Syl would do is start shouting at the Stormfather. So Syl seems to have been alive (in some regard) for a while. Kaladin just couldn't hear her. I think this supports Syl being alive but recuperating.
• The Stormfather claims Kaladin betrayed his oath. Syl doesn't argue the point. More evidence for the "Syl was dead" theory, though I imagine Syl arguing particulars about whether Kaladin did or did not break any oaths would have killed the pacing of the scene. Also, as I've said, even if he broke his oath it doesn't mean it would have killed her. We only know that happens for sure when Radiants get Shardblades.
• The Stormfather says "he will kill you" to Syl. What, implying he didn't do that already? I think this is evidence that the Stormfather was lying to Kaladin earlier when he claimed Kaladin killed Syl. However, you could take this to mean that Kaladin revived Syl, and now the Stormfather wants Kaladin to die so the bond between him and Syl can break gracefully and she won't die.

Either way, the matter is a little more confused than I gave it credit for. I'm going down to 60%/40% Syl was alive/Syl was dead. (I know you dislike giving numbers pulled out of a hat like this, but it seems like the clearest way to describe my feelings on what's likely.)

[Oudeis he/him]

To be clear, I think Kal made his turning point WAY before this scene. Hours earlier, in the training yard, when he realizes that Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien. That's when he decides, I cannot keep both promises, and I've chosen the right one to uphold. As soon as he starts walking towards the palace to try to save the king's life, that's when I think Syl begins to revive.

 

In my head, Syl has stopped being a spren of generic "honor" and is the spren of Kaladin's "honor"; she died when he had no honor, when he forswore his oath to protect. Kaladin had no honor, and therefore Syl was dead. Deciding to intervene, knowing he has no more powers and he faces at least two Shardbearers, realizing he might well be throwing his life away for nothing... that is when he once more has honor. That's the moment Syl awakes.

 

And, for the record, while I agree with you that the screaming match was going on for minutes, if not hours, before Kal starts to hear it, I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with Syl going from dead to yelling instantly. You should see my sister if you wake her up. (j/k)

 

I sorta see this bit as evidence of their strengthening bond... when Kal goes into a situation knowing there's at least a chance he'll die to do the right thing, Syl begins to revive. When he's facing Moash and Graves, decides to protect the king even knowing he will die, and that then the king will, too, anyway, his honor is proven enough that the bond deepens, and through his connection he starts being able to hear Syl's words.

 

I, personally, am totally confident that Syl was dead for a time in Words of Radiance. Now, I grant you, "dead and trapped as a physical Blade" might be a very different thing from "normal old dead."

 

When you put out a fire, do the flamespren die, or just fade away?

[Yata he/him]

I, personally, am totally confident that Syl was dead for a time in Words of Radiance. Now, I grant you, "dead and trapped as a physical Blade" might be a very different thing from "normal old dead."

 

When you put out a fire, do the flamespren die, or just fade away?

I thought that Syl died and she didn't "trapped as a Blade" just because Kal isn't enough as KR to give Syl the ability to turn into a Shardblade. If Kal now does the same thing, Syl's death will result in a Dead-Shardblade.

 

But this is difference to me is pointless as I suspect that also a Dead-Sprenblade could be resurrect in the same way (by his own old KR).

(there is a WoB about Adolin and the possibilities of resurrect his Sharblade, that say "It's could be resurrect but It's need who had the Oaths with it (similar words, I don't remember exactly).

[Ari he/him]

I laughed. I was going to make a similar joke, but decided against it.

 

Also:

Having reread a bunch of scenes, I'm giving the theory that Syl was actually dead more weight. I note in particular this part:

Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.

He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.

HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.

“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.” The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.

I don’t care.

HE WILL KILL YOU.

• First of all, note that Kaladin begins to hear shouting. It's very quiet. My thought here is that Syl and the Stormfather having been having a shouting match for quite a while, and only now Kaladin is tuning in. I doubt the first thing the newly-revived Syl would do is start shouting at the Stormfather. So Syl seems to have been alive (in some regard) for a while. Kaladin just couldn't hear her. I think this supports Syl being alive but recuperating.
• The Stormfather claims Kaladin betrayed his oath. Syl doesn't argue the point. More evidence for the "Syl was dead" theory, though I imagine Syl arguing particulars about whether Kaladin did or did not break any oaths would have killed the pacing of the scene. Also, as I've said, even if he broke his oath it doesn't mean it would have killed her. We only know that happens for sure when Radiants get Shardblades.
• The Stormfather says "he will kill you" to Syl. What, implying he didn't do that already? I think this is evidence that the Stormfather was lying to Kaladin earlier when he claimed Kaladin killed Syl. However, you could take this to mean that Kaladin revived Syl, and now the Stormfather wants Kaladin to die so the bond between him and Syl can break gracefully and she won't die.

Either way, the matter is a little more confused than I gave it credit for. I'm going down to 60%/40% Syl was alive/Syl was dead. (I know you dislike giving numbers pulled out of a hat like this, but it seems like the clearest way to describe my feelings on what's likely.)

 

A thing to keep in mind is the other known examples where Spren died, they were already to the point in their bond where they could manifest as Shards. Syl and Kaladin were not at this point when Kaladin "killed" her, thus expecting her to die and leave behind a blade doesn't seem accurate. The recreance left behind shards because the Spren were manifest as shards when they died. I'm pretty firmly in the "Syl was dead or near dead" camp, and the only reason it was relatively easy to revive her is that Kaladin was still around to swear the next oath. God beyond knows what would have happened to her if Kaladin had sworn all his oaths already!

 

edit: I really like the phrasing of the bond being that Syl becomes a Spren of Kaladin's honour. That's a really elegant way to put it.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Ari

[Guest]

I thought that Syl died and she didn't "trapped as a Blade" just because Kal isn't enough as KR to give Syl the ability to turn into a Shardblade. If Kal now does the same thing, Syl's death will result in a Dead-Shardblade.

 

But this is difference to me is pointless as I suspect that also a Dead-Sprenblade could be resurrect in the same way (by his own old KR).

(there is a WoB about Adolin and the possibilities of resurrect his Sharblade, that say "It's could be resurrect but It's need who had the Oaths with it (similar words, I don't remember exactly).

 

The exact WoB states that in "most cases" the original knight would be needed to revive a dead-Blade. Brandon started up by stating you would need the original person before correcting himself and adding the "in most cases". 

 

The door is still open for the Blade revival theory by another individual than the one originally linked to it.

[Yata he/him]

The exact WoB states that in "most cases" the original knight would be needed to revive a dead-Blade. Brandon started up by stating you would need the original person before correcting himself and adding the "in most cases". 

 

The door is still open for the Blade revival theory by another individual than the one originally linked to it.

Sure but my main point was another.

That also a Dead-Shardblade (as far as we know the most "deathest" form of the Spren) are actually resurectable by his own former Partner.

Therefore Kal resurecting Syl after her Death (true death) are possible indeed.

[Guest]

Sure but my main point was another.

That also a Dead-Shardblade (as far as we know the most "deathest" form of the Spren) are actually resurectable by his own former Partner.

Therefore Kal resurecting Syl after her Death (true death) are possible indeed.

 

It is possible. We do know as much. Kaladin did it, though we can argue as to how dead Syl was, but Pattern seemed to confirm it. Bottom line is the best surest way to revive a dead spren is to have his original knight start swearing oaths again.

 

Anything else is... complicated.

[Moogle]

A thing to keep in mind is the other known examples where Spren died, they were already to the point in their bond where they could manifest as Shards. Syl and Kaladin were not at this point when Kaladin "killed" her, thus expecting her to die and leave behind a blade doesn't seem accurate. The recreance left behind shards because the Spren were manifest as shards when they died. I'm pretty firmly in the "Syl was dead or near dead" camp, and the only reason it was relatively easy to revive her is that Kaladin was still around to swear the next oath. God beyond knows what would have happened to her if Kaladin had sworn all his oaths already!

 

edit: I really like the phrasing of the bond being that Syl becomes a Spren of Kaladin's honour. That's a really elegant way to put it.

 

Yes, but we specifically know spren are different in the Physical vs. the Cognitive. In the Physical, Syl needs a bond to a human in order to be more than a mindless windspren. If a spren ended up in the Cognitive and lost their bond, I'm not so sure it would be that terrible for them because whatever the bond is providing is no longer necessary for them to think.

 

This makes me question why bringing dead Shardblades into the Cognitive is not sufficient to cure the spren within, and is a ding against my theory. But there's significant differences between a second Ideal Kaladin and a third Ideal Kaladin - Blade, eye color, and squires, to say the least. I find it extremely significant that post-WoR Syl will become a Blade when she dies. This implies some sort of permanent transition to the Physical to me, and this may include other changes as to what happens when Kal breaks his oaths.

 

All this gets me itching to make a few theories on the mechanics of the spren bond and what spren get out of it. I have some vague ideas on what happens with the bond that could make a spren die post-Third Ideal and be fine before it.