Is Lopen a Surgebinder?

[Cemci]

I would note that many Radiants were not warriors. Would it be fair to assume the Truthwatchers, whose powers presumably have little applicability in combat, could not be warriors? It would follow that Renarin's skill would not be enhanced. After all, neither does Shallan's, a far better example I think. While she uses her Shardblade in an admittedly limited capacity, she does not display any skill with the sword. On a side note, would it even be fair to assume Renarin could have his sword-wielding abilities enhanced, considering he can apparently barely stand holding the Blade? From the first time he has it, he displays signs of discomfort at holding it.

 

Also, Teft notes in WoK that Kaladin is 'a master of the spear, with his capacities enhanced to astonishing levels'. This is noted just as Kaladin says the second Oath of the Windrunners, so I would agree that the Bond (for the Windrunners) enhances combat skill. Teft also notes that the Stormlight does not grant innate skill, merely enhances it. 

 

I would also note that there is something special about the first time Kaladin holds a quarterstaff. He manages to make his opponent, who had been trained for some time already, bleed, the sight of which ultimately makes him lose more harshly than he might have if he hadn't choked at the sight of blood. 

 

One more thing: When Kaladin dances in the winds in the arena, he does have the bond and he is using Stormlight. An important qualifier to your argument that Kaladin could dodge like that without Stormlight. He clearly couldn't. His Stormlight runs out seconds later and he stumbles, barely managing to avoid a Shardblade coming for him. In fact, the only thing saving him then is Adolin jumping on Jakamav's back, disabling him. 

 

I would conclude therefore that Kaladin is talented with the spear/quarterstaff, and therefore even without the bond better at combat with one than an average soldier. The Bond does not grant innate skill, but it does enhance Kaladin's innate skill and talent. Kaladin would not be as good a fighter without the Bond. That being said, the Bond does probably make him one of the best fighters in Alethkar if not Roshar. 

[Ansalem]

I would conclude therefore that Kaladin is talented with the spear/quarterstaff, and therefore even without the bond better at combat with one than an average soldier. The Bond does not grant innate skill, but it does enhance Kaladin's innate skill and talent. Kaladin would not be as good a fighter without the Bond. That being said, the Bond does probably make him one of the best fighters in Alethkar if not Roshar. 

 

Well, considering he took out Szeth, someone who had taken out multiple Shardbearers and a squad of bodyguards in a matter of seconds, I would say Kaladin is very likely the greatest warrior on Roshar at the moment. Unless you count some of the Heralds which I'm not sure if we can just now since we don't actually know their capabilities in the present and without their Blades.

 

Anyway this is basically what I meant when I said that Oudeis was playing loose with definitions. It's blatantly obvious that Stormlight enhances abilities far beyond normal. Oudeis is saying that this means there is some supernatural addition on top of innate abilities. Personally I don't see what difference there is between that and simply having a more powerful weapon at your disposal. A person with Stormlight is inherently more powerful than an ordinary person of the same skill in the same way that a person with an assault rifle is more powerful than someone with a BB gun.

 

Are the skills supernaturally enhanced or are the innate skills being applied to a supernatural weapon? And what difference is there either way? The line seems pretty blurry to me. And regardless of which it is, Kaladin is still a master spearman all by himself.

 

As a side note, I didn't say Kaladin could dodge like that without Stormlight. My point is that his ability to dodge at all comes from his honed instincts and the Stormlight enhances his speed and focus. If he didn't have those instincts the Stormlight wouldn't have made him able to dodge any better than an ordinary person in that situation. But because he does have those instincts the Stormlight enhances that skill beyond normal. Stormlight by itself gives him nothing resembling skill.

[Cemci]

I agree with your statement then. A distinction can be made perhaps between Kaladin with Stormlight, dodging like that because it feels natural to him and because he is holding Stormlight, and Vin burning Atium, who can (because of and only because of the metal) subconsciously anticipate where a blow will land and dodge out of the way instinctively.

 

I think we can also attempt to make a distinction between supernatural skills being applied to a natural weapon and natural skill being applied to a supernatural weapon. Natural skill with a supernatural weapon is what I would call Adolin with a Shardblade. Supernatural skill with a natural weapon is to me Kaladin with a normal wooden Spear. Supernatural skill with a supernatural weapon might be Kaladin with Shardblade-Syl? 

 

Like you said, the difference may be minimal and the line is certainly blurry, but considering that Kaladin manages to hold his own with a Shardplate-Helmet against two full Shardbearers would indicate to me that supernatural skill could prove superior to the supernatural weapon. If Kaladin had had a capable weapon when holding off Jakamav and Relis, or even Shardblade-Syl, I would say he could have defeated both Shardbearers at least as easily as Adolin could.

[Oudeis]

Ansalem:

 

Having woken up, I re-read the post I made last night. I came across as much more of a jerk than I really am. I should know better than to post right before bed. I apologize for my tone, though not for the content.

 

I still disagree with you. I've written out three times now a rebuttal to what you've said, and frankly I cannot find ways to say it without seeming insulting. To be fully blunt, I think you've taken your thesis, "Teft knows what he's talking about," and now you're changing and interpreting the evidence to support your thesis, rather than looking at the evidence and allowing conclusions to rise. Showing you that your interpretation is flawed is never going to change your mind, because you will always find a new way to interpret it. You said you were part of the old conversation, so there's really nothing new for me to say. You've brought up no points I didn't address in the old conversation, so rehashing my half will do nothing but increase contention.

 

Pulse: I don't see why that's ridiculous. The first time Kaladin picks up a staff, he beats a boy with actual training bloody with it, and only loses when he makes himself stop in mid-swing. Shallan could draw like a master from an impossibly young age. Why is it so preposterous to think that if a baker bonded an Honorspren, he'd suddenly be good with a spear? Why is that more ridiculous than Kaladin being good with the staff the first time it's handed to him, or him suddenly losing that skill when the Bond is weakened?

 

Cemci: You seem to have fallen into the assumption that Teft can be trusted when it comes to matters of Radiancy, as you cite him twice as examples. I just can't even start this conversation again.

[Cemci]

The times that I use him as an example are either quotes from Teft, who observes Kaladin as a trained soldier and therefore presumably knows how to recognise someone who is a master of the spear, and Teft's recollection of his memories.

 

Quote for the first:

 

Teft had known many a battlefield, but he had never seen anything remotely like this. Kaladin held the ground before the bridge by himself. White Stormlight streamed from him like a blazing fire. His speed was incredible, nearly inhuman, and his precision - each thrust of the spear hit a neck, side, or other unarmored target of Parshendi flesh...[description of Kaladin fighting Parshendi]...

No, this wasn't just Stormlight. This was a master of the spear with his capacity enhanced to astonishing levels.

 

Quote for the second:

 

Teft had only fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated.

It perfected.

 

I don't understand why you are so predisposed against anything coming from Teft. Yes he admits to not being an expert on the subject of Radiants, but surely the things the Envisagers taught him, if confirmed again and again in different memories, can be assumed to be correct? Just because he exhibits some self-doubt and didn't pay close attention in the past, should everything he says be assumed false? I find that an extreme position, particularly since Teft's observations and memories are confirmed by things Kaladin does. Everybody (not just Teft) can see that Kaladin is an incredibly talented spearman. More importantly, the times that Kaladin doesn't have the Bond, he still manages to kill a chasmfiend with a Shardblade, but struggles to complete a kata during the Weeping on the training grounds. This second instance I would attribute to him being troubled about Moash's plans and his own conscience regarding Dalinar. In the second scene, he is in the process of discovering that he cannot let Elhokar die, even if it would be right. He is clearly still capable with a weapon.

 

As an aside, your tone is insulting, and I would appreciate it if you could at least show some respect to the people presenting you with evidence that contradicts your own convictions.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cemci

[Ansalem]

Ansalem:

 

Having woken up, I re-read the post I made last night. I came across as much more of a jerk than I really am. I should know better than to post right before bed. I apologize for my tone, though not for the content.

 

I still disagree with you. I've written out three times now a rebuttal to what you've said, and frankly I cannot find ways to say it without seeming insulting. To be fully blunt, I think you've taken your thesis, "Teft knows what he's talking about," and now you're changing and interpreting the evidence to support your thesis, rather than looking at the evidence and allowing conclusions to rise. Showing you that your interpretation is flawed is never going to change your mind, because you will always find a new way to interpret it. You said you were part of the old conversation, so there's really nothing new for me to say. You've brought up no points I didn't address in the old conversation, so rehashing my half will do nothing but increase contention.

 

Well, I'm not the one who said those things, so...

[Oudeis]

...Gah, other person with username starting with A whose derivation I do not know and a generic 17s avatar... it's possible I've been conflating you two, Anselem and Arondell. My apologies, on yet another level. I am just going to be here in this corner for a while...

[Ansalem]

lol It's fine. Probably my fault for being too lazy to crop my normal avatar.

[Zahdemano]

I apologize for the double post. My 2 year old got ahold of the phone and it was still open to my post

Edited September 5, 2015 by Zahdemano

[cuimhne]

Mostly to get this thread back on topic, I think we don't have quite enough information to answer that specific question. Can Lopen use Stormlight? Absolutely and undeniably. Is Lopen a Surgebinder? Possibly. I'm almost certain that he is a squire in the order of Windrunners, which essentially means he's Kaladin's squire. (I'm not sure how the whole squire thing would work with multiple Windrunners.) Lopen's being a Surgebinder or not depends on whether or not squires can Surgebind. 

[Cemci]

There has been no mention whatsoever of any spren following Lopen. Whether this was deliberately done by Sanderson to leave open the possibility of Lopen becoming a Surgebinder with the Nahel Bond is left open, but the viewpoint sequence we get from Lopen would have been a prime opportunity to introduce any abnormally-behaving spren.

 

We do know that Syl was the only honor spren who came from wherever (Shadesmar? What we know of Shallan's experiences in that realm didn't look like there were any amount of spren hanging around, but this is obviously still early days). We also know that Lopen has been trying to suck in Stormlight ever since he discovered that Kaladin could do it. Presumably he desperately wants to be able to do this, despite his humorous comments regarding glowing and 'the ladies'.

My bet would be on Lopen being a squire to Kaladin. We know that Windrunners were numerous and had many squires, and the obvious implication with the suddenly glowing bridgemen, Lopen's ability to use Stormlight, but no sudden rush of new spren following the bridgemen about would be that many of the bridgemen are turning into squires. Somebody speculated whether a bridgeman could be a squire to Shallan, for example. I find this unlikely, for the fact that Lopen and Shallan have a tenuous link at best. Lopen isn't really part of the bodyguard rotation guarding the Kholins, the king and Shallan, and I would assume that, for a person to become a squire to a Radiant, some sort of relationship has to exist between them. Kaladin seems the more likely, also merely for the fact that we are given no information about whether the Lightweavers had squires.

 

It would be interesting to find out what exactly distinguishes you as only able to use Stormlight, be a Surgebinder or be a Radiant. Obviously to be a Radiant there are certain words to be said, a society to be a member of and a Nahel Bond that has to be present, but are Surgebinders the same thing as people who can draw in Stormlight? I would assume that Surgebinders are somewhere in the middle between Radiant and Stormlight-user. We know that Kaladin is a Surgebinder because he mostly unknowingly used his powers to divert arrows during his time with the bridgecrews. Does the ability to heal using Stormlight make you a Surgebinder? I would assume that there is a little more to it than that, since the 'Surgebinders' referred to by Nohadon in one of Dalinar's visions did an apparently obvious and devastating damage to the surroundings in Kholinar. It would follow therefore that Surgebinders are able to do more than merely heal themselves using Stormlight. 

 

I will add that, since all we know about Lopen's abilities is that he has started regrowing his arm, it may be too early to even try to distinguish. If we are given more evidence regarding 'Surgebinder' abilities, squire abilities and Radiant abilities, it would be possible to place Lopen distinctly in one camp or the other.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Cemci

[Oudeis]

Here's the thing... people keep restating the same stuff over and over. Everyone is on board with the reasons it seems very likely that Lopen is Kaladin's Squire, and that Squires can take in Stormlight for the passive physical benefits and healing but cannot Surgebind. I even agree with everyone here that that's almost certainly what's happening.

 

The only thing I'm pointing out is, however strong you want to make the assumption, however "obvious" or "apparent" you think it is, it isn't confirmed. If you don't wish to keep your mind open to other possibilities, no one is making you.

 

I will respond to two points, real quick. First, we know that other Orders had Squires, and that Windrunners had more than most.

 

Second, Kaladin was fighting with preternatural skill literally five years or more before he first started noticing an odd Windspren around, which was another almost-year before he exchanged his first words with Syl. Dalinar has been healing with Stormlight well before he Bonded the Stormfather. Ym was healing feet and barely saw his spren. You're saying that the lack of evidence is an evidence of lack, and that's a common logical fallacy. Unlike any of these other examples, Lopen already knows Surgebinding is a thing, and knows what the powers are and some of the basics of how to use them, and is trying them constantly. He admits he tests out taking in Stormlight once a day. We would expect him, therefore, to manifest his powers far earlier than most Surgebinders do, compared to the other elements of being a Surgebinder. There are at least five Nahel spren we know next to nothing about, and three besides we know barely more than that. There's actually not a single Order we know of where we can say positively, the Spren would have made itself known to Lopen in an obvious, or even subtle, way before he had the ability to Invest.

 

Recall, the Bond is what gives a spren the capacity to think in the physical realm. It stands to reason that if Lopen is bonding a spren, it's only awakening to thought just as he's awakening to the ability to Invest, so we're only just coming up to the moment where it will start acting like anything other than just a common, run-of-the-mill Spren. Recall that Kaladin had been bonded to Syl for quite a while and she was acting barely at all different from a common windspren for most of that time.

 

I'm just saying. If someone wants to point to the mountain of evidence again, you may all feel free. I don't mind re-reading it. But however "apparent" or "obvious" a thing is, it's not confirmed. Especially when it's about something like Squires, which we know next to nothing about.

[Cemci]

What I was pointing out was that we don't know enough about any order to make any assumption about whether Lopen is anything more than a squire. What's the point of speculating if you have little to nothing to go on? I was rehashing the evidence since cuimhne was requesting a return to the main topic. 

[Moogle]

While we're on the evidence thing, Bridge 4 begin glowing with Stormlight on the exact same day that Kaladin swears the Third Ideal. The timing is incredibly coincidental if Lopen is not a squire.

[Oudeis]

True, but do we have any other evidence of a Radiant ability "triggering" at an Oath? Kaladin was doing Reverse Lashings and taking in Stormlight before he said so much as the first Ideal. The day he said, I will protect those who cannot protect themselves, he started using his abilities better... but not actually any differently. And he learned how to Basic Lash just one day out in the chasms cuz he was trying. The only evidence is Syl the Shardblade. That's precisely one example, and since it was healing their severed bond, I think it makes even worse of an example than it might normally.

 

Some people claim Lift could use Regrowth because she had just said the second Ideal, but I don't buy that. She definitely didn't say it aloud, which we're told is at least kind of important if not critical, and she makes reference to having said certain words already, so on balance I think it's likely she said that Ideal already.

 

I know it sounds cool, like a level-up sequence in a video game, and people talk about how a "Third-Ideal" Radiant has this power or that power, but frankly there's not a ton of evidence from the books to support this model. If the Squires are a thing that happens expressly because of the Third Ideal, they provide our exactly second example of this phenomenon happening.

 

Also, is there a distance thing? The Lopen must've been... something, before this Ideal, because he's never near Kaladin after the third Ideal is spoken. Either a Squire bond can be formed regardless of distance (and without conscious decision on either party; I'm gonna say the Lopen might have been trying to take in Stormlight but his Intent was definitely not, "I want to be Kaladin's Squire now"), or they were already something. Maybe when Kaladin was capable of supporting Squires, the Bond influenced spiritual bonds he'd already formed with people that could provide for Squireness, and upgraded them.

 

Just randomly speculating. The OP asked, is Lopen a Surgebinder. The most complete answer I can think of is: Almost certainly not, but there is a LOT of wiggle room around the edges of that one. More than I'm comfortable with before dismissing the idea.

[maxal]

Some people claim Lift could use Regrowth because she had just said the second Ideal, but I don't buy that. She definitely didn't say it aloud, which we're told is at least kind of important if not critical, and she makes reference to having said certain words already, so on balance I think it's likely she said that Ideal already.

 

 

Minor point: Brandon said a mute person could become a Radiant which implied the Oath don't actually have to be said out loud. I agree the evidence concerning Lift is tenuous at best: was she re-formulating an oath she had already said and was it really the 2nd oath, but I do not think the fact she said the words softly is an argument, not based on that specific WoB. Either way, the way the scene was written, for Lift, makes me believe it was a new oath she was just saying and her leveling up came with the potential to use regrowth in a more decisive manner. 

 

However, I am not convinced it was the 2nd oath. It probably is, but there is no evidence on the matter.

 

As for Lopen, I agree he most probably is a squire, but I also agree the evidence is not conclusive. He could be a new surgebinder as well, but I think it unlikely due to the timing of the event which I do believe was intentional.

[Oudeis]

She definitely didn't say it aloud, which we're told is at least kind of important if not critical,

 

 

Minor point: Brandon said a mute person could become a Radiant which implied the Oath don't actually have to be said out loud.

 

That is... exactly what I said. It's important, but not critical. Here's the WoB you refer to. Twice, Syl makes it clear Kaladin has to say the Ideal aloud, so it's important to speak it, but obviously there's some other method if speech isn't an option. That said, she clearly doesn't say it, or say it softly, or whisper it, or anything in this scene; it's thoughts in her head. And she does refer to having already spoken words to bind Wyndle to her. On balance, I find it as likely that she's already said these words as it is that Lopen is simply Kaladin's Squire.

 

May I ask, what exactly about the scene makes you think this is the first time she puts words to the Ideal? And what makes you think saying an Oath "levels you up" so that you can use more abilities?

 

As I've said, we have exactly three possible examples of a new Ideal (or Truth) triggering new abilities, and two of them are highly suspect; in fact, they're mostly based on the assumption that Oaths come with new powers.

 

Saying, "These powers are new because they came after an Oath, and we know the Oath was just spoken because they were succeeded by powers" is circular logic. Logically, two things cannot be proof of each other; that's like saying two horses are taller than each other.

[lidrevan]

It seems most certainly implied that he is a squire. If  the bridge 4 boys are glowing, Lopen included, then I would doubt the whole squad all became radiants over night.

[maxal]

That is... exactly what I said. It's important, but not critical. Here's the WoB you refer to. Twice, Syl makes it clear Kaladin has to say the Ideal aloud, so it's important to speak it, but obviously there's some other method if speech isn't an option. That said, she clearly doesn't say it, or say it softly, or whisper it, or anything in this scene; it's thoughts in her head. And she does refer to having already spoken words to bind Wyndle to her. On balance, I find it as likely that she's already said these words as it is that Lopen is simply Kaladin's Squire.

 

May I ask, what exactly about the scene makes you think this is the first time she puts words to the Ideal? And what makes you think saying an Oath "levels you up" so that you can use more abilities?

 

As I've said, we have exactly three possible examples of a new Ideal (or Truth) triggering new abilities, and two of them are highly suspect; in fact, they're mostly based on the assumption that Oaths come with new powers.

 

Saying, "These powers are new because they came after an Oath, and we know the Oath was just spoken because they were succeeded by powers" is circular logic. Logically, two things cannot be proof of each other; that's like saying two horses are taller than each other.

 

Well, we know Syl insists Kaladin speaks the words out loud, but we do not know if other sprens have the same requirements. In other words, we do not have conclusive evidence Lift speaking the words in her head is not sufficient for Wyndle to accept them. The WoB indicate there are other methods to speak the oath other than words. As far as we know, Lift may have done enough for Wyndle. The evidence is not strong enough to dispute this.

 

The reason I believe this is the first time she spoke this ideal is Wyndle himself. When Lift sees Gawx, dead, on the floor, she asks softly if regrowth could save him. Wyndle answers by stating, perhaps it could, if she were more practiced. He implied she could not do it, now, as she is or so this is how I interpret the passage. A few moments later, she "speaks" an ideal and she suddenly is able to revive Gawx... The whole scene makes me think it was a new ideal which granted her the power to save Gawx. I could be wrong about it, but this is still how I interpreted it.

 

As for oaths granting more powers, it does seem as it enables the Radiants to do more with their current powers. I would not call them "new", but they seem to get more strength after saying the oath. The scene where Kaladin, injured is taken away from the battle at the Tower. He is weak and going into shock. Despite having said the first oath, he does not have the ability to help himself, but as he says the second one, all of a sudden he is not only healed, but sucking in stormligtht in intent (which he has not been able to do before) and he consciously start to use the lashing (which he was not doing before, he merely carried a bag of spheres, but he had no idea what he was doing).

 

It does seem as if saying oaths give the Radiants more control, more strength and while these abilities are not new, so to speak, they seem to use them more efficiently after saying an oath. For instance, we do know a Radiant needs to say a given number of oath to get access to a Shardblade. The number, we have been told, can fluctuate on an order basis, but another WoB stated 3 oaths was the standard, though not universal.

[Oudeis]

It seems most certainly implied that he is a squire. If  the bridge 4 boys are glowing, Lopen included, then I would doubt the whole squad all became radiants over night.

 

I... give up.

 

When Lift sees Gawx, dead, on the floor, she asks softly if regrowth could save him. Wyndle answers by stating, perhaps it could, if she were more practiced. He 1`implied she could not do it, now, as she is or so this is how I interpret the passage.

Well... yeah. I mean, this is a story. It's not gonna be super interesting. "Could I save him?" "Totes! Regrowth is the easiest thing ever. Pop on over and breath on him, he'll be right as rain." Protagonists need challenges to overcome. The things we see them do have to be meaningful. Going back, risking everything, not even knowing if she had a chance to save him, told a completely different story than if she'd been told flat-out, you can save him easily, and if you leave you're choosing to let him die. It was a narrative tool to build sympathy for Lift.

 

Also, Wyndle admits he lost a lot in the transition, and doesn't remember much, and isn't sure how she's doing things, anyway. Plus, we see he's got a remarkably low opinion of her, especially her maturity and dedication to the task at hand. Keep in mind, too, he might well have been aware that if he told her, "You can definitely do this," she would be even more compelled to go back... and she'd prolly die, and he'd lose his anchor in this world. The statement might not be devoid of context, is what I'm saying.

 

It's like Lopen all over again. You can see the pieces, and interpret them all a specific way, and set them up so they make a nice pretty picture... and I just distrust any time someone invites me to make my own assumptions and build a nice, neat, tidy little package with no loose ends. Neither real life, nor good stories, work out that way. Your interpretation is valid. What it isn't, is conclusive proof that people get new abilities by saying Oaths. Relevant to this OP, this whole thing was brought up as, is it or is it not proof that Lopen is a Squire. But it's just another castle built on sand.

 

Now, if we had seen her actually try to use Regrowth first, fail, then think the Oath, and then successfully use it, that would mean something.

 

Idle curiosity; if you assume she's never said this Ideal before, then what words had she said previously to bind Wyndle to her?

 

The scene where Kaladin, injured is taken away from the battle at the Tower. He is weak and going into shock. Despite having said the first oath, he does not have the ability to help himself, but as he says the second one, all of a sudden he is not only healed, but sucking in stormligtht in intent (which he has not been able to do before) and he consciously start to use the lashing (which he was not doing before, he merely carried a bag of spheres, but he had no idea what he was doing).

 

Not positive what you're saying here, so if I'm contradicting points you aren't making, I apologize and will retract.

 

Kaladin is unable to heal himself because he's out of Stormlight. He does heal himself, he leaps across the chasm, and pushes all the listeners back with a wave of force, all before he says the Second Ideal... and all because now, he has Stormlight. Saying the Ideal didn't let him heal himself, getting Stormlight let him heal himself.

 

He was always able to suck in stormlight intentionally; he had figured it out long ago in the book. The difference wasn't that he deliberately inhaled it, the difference was he had no spheres, but upon leaping at the listeners saw their rough cut gemstones glistening with Stormlight. And, again, this all happens before he says the second Ideal.

 

And he'd been using Full Lashings for like, half the book by this point, so I don't know what you're talking about. This was not at all the first time he deliberately used a Lashing; he wasn't climbing that cliff in the Pits by instinct. And which Lashings did he use at the tower? He used the Reverse Lashing to get them to the chasm, but that was no less instinctive than any of the times he used it on the bridgeruns.

 

I'm a little unclear on what you're saying here... but, to be blunt, I don't think ANY of it is backed up by what actually happens in the book. I fully admit that it's possible I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

 

For instance, we do know a Radiant needs to say a given number of oath to get access to a Shardblade. The number, we have been told, can fluctuate on an order basis, but another WoB stated 3 oaths was the standard, though not universal.

 

Do you have this WoB handy? I admit I haven't heard it before, and would love to read it.

[maxal]

Well... yeah. I mean, this is a story. It's not gonna be super interesting. "Could I save him?" "Totes! Regrowth is the easiest thing ever. Pop on over and breath on him, he'll be right as rain." Protagonists need challenges to overcome. The things we see them do have to be meaningful. Going back, risking everything, not even knowing if she had a chance to save him, told a completely different story than if she'd been told flat-out, you can save him easily, and if you leave you're choosing to let him die. It was a narrative tool to build sympathy for Lift.

 

Also, Wyndle admits he lost a lot in the transition, and doesn't remember much, and isn't sure how she's doing things, anyway. Plus, we see he's got a remarkably low opinion of her, especially her maturity and dedication to the task at hand. Keep in mind, too, he might well have been aware that if he told her, "You can definitely do this," she would be even more compelled to go back... and she'd prolly die, and he'd lose his anchor in this world. The statement might not be devoid of context, is what I'm saying.

 

It's like Lopen all over again. You can see the pieces, and interpret them all a specific way, and set them up so they make a nice pretty picture... and I just distrust any time someone invites me to make my own assumptions and build a nice, neat, tidy little package with no loose ends. Neither real life, nor good stories, work out that way. Your interpretation is valid. What it isn't, is conclusive proof that people get new abilities by saying Oaths. Relevant to this OP, this whole thing was brought up as, is it or is it not proof that Lopen is a Squire. But it's just another castle built on sand.

 

Now, if we had seen her actually try to use Regrowth first, fail, then think the Oath, and then successfully use it, that would mean something.

 

I don't disagree with you. I am very ambivalent over this part of the story, especially the apparent ease at which Lift is able to revive Gawx. My inner senses tell me healing someone should be complicated and hard, but we see the exact opposite. I have work to do in order to be able to accept surgebinding is this elementary.

 

I do agree about your first paragraph. Of course, the entire Lift chapter was built in order to create a lasting and positive impression of Lift as a character. Brandon explicitly stated she would become major, eventually. He laid the cards for the readers to grow attach to her. I also believe the chain of events was purposefully intended to make us see the Edgedancers are individuals who cared more about others than themselves, the selflessness thing.

 

I do agree Wyndle explicitly states he would not have chosen Lift. He was forced to take her in what appears to be a cruel joke by the Nightwatcher: "She is young, we can shape her into anything." However, Nale emphasis how very unlike the Edgedancers of old time Life actually is which may be why Wyndle is so discouraged by her. It is likely he finds her unrefined and inelegant.

 

I do agree there are various ways to interpret the Lift chapter, though I do believe the most likely outcome is she indeed said the 2nd oath and it indeed enabled her to revive Gawx. It does appear as the most plausible explanation, based on the clues at hand, but I agree it is not the only one. 

 

As for new oaths granting new powers, I did not use word "conclusive." I used "it does seem as" which is not the same as "conclusive" and it does leave room for other interpretation. I do not believe the evidence is conclusive, but it seems to be geared towards it. In any advent, we the readers, are being made to believe the oaths are creating a leveling up. Kaladin's story arc where he always seems to get renewed strength does bring it credibility, but again I agree this is not fail-proof arguments. Other explanations are also possible.

 

Personally, I would have love to see Lift failed at using Regrowth simply because I do have a personal issue with healing powers being so trivial to use. However, that's a problem I personally have as surgebinding is seriously harming my personal beliefs magic is supposed to be hard to master. 

 

 

 

Not positive what you're saying here, so if I'm contradicting points you aren't making, I apologize and will retract.

 

Kaladin is unable to heal himself because he's out of Stormlight. He does heal himself, he leaps across the chasm, and pushes all the listeners back with a wave of force, all before he says the Second Ideal... and all because now, he has Stormlight. Saying the Ideal didn't let him heal himself, getting Stormlight let him heal himself.

 

He was always able to suck in stormlight intentionally; he had figured it out long ago in the book. The difference wasn't that he deliberately inhaled it, the difference was he had no spheres, but upon leaping at the listeners saw their rough cut gemstones glistening with Stormlight. And, again, this all happens before he says the second Ideal.

 

And he'd been using Full Lashings for like, half the book by this point, so I don't know what you're talking about. This was not at all the first time he deliberately used a Lashing; he wasn't climbing that cliff in the Pits by instinct. And which Lashings did he use at the tower? He used the Reverse Lashing to get them to the chasm, but that was no less instinctive than any of the times he used it on the bridgeruns.

 

I'm a little unclear on what you're saying here... but, to be blunt, I don't think ANY of it is backed up by what actually happens in the book. I fully admit that it's possible I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

 

I would sincerely need to go reread the passage. I wrote that first paragraph out of memory, so I may have gotten it wrong. I don't feel I can comment further without doing so as I may very well get it wrong. So apologies for it. You may very well be right about it.

 

 

 Do you have this WoB handy? I admit I haven't heard it before, and would love to read it.

 

Are WoB ever handy? Sadly no. I can try to look it up again, later today. I recall two WoB concerning Blade level. One stating each order gained Blade at various moments which explains why Shallan gets her immediately (or so it seems, other explanations are possible) while Kaladin has to say the 3th oath. Another WoB said 3th oath was the most frequent threshold, which gave me the impression we can assume most knights gain Blade after saying the 3th oath, but there are exception. Are the exceptions order related or individuals related? I am not sure if the evidence is clear on that matter.

[Oudeis]

I do believe the most likely outcome is she indeed said the 2nd oath and it indeed enabled her to revive Gawx. It does appear as the most plausible explanation, based on the clues at hand, but I agree it is not the only one.

And I still think your interpretation is an enormous stretch. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree until we learn more.

 

I would sincerely need to go reread the passage. I wrote that first paragraph out of memory, so I may have gotten it wrong. I don't feel I can comment further without doing so as I may very well get it wrong. So apologies for it. You may very well be right about it.

Okay but... you know I'm right about at least some of it, though, right? The stuff that happens way, way earlier in the book? Like Kaladin being able to use Full Lashings for most of it? Do you not remember those parts, either? 

  

Are WoB ever handy?

 

Well, yeah, many pivotal ones I, and several others, keep bookmarked for exactly occasions like this; as  you've shown regarding the Tower part, our own recollections are faulty, so if we're planning to discuss whether or not a thing has happened, or what the relevant WoB is, it makes debates much more smooth if we're able to cite sources, or re-read them ourselves and make sure it says what we think it said.

 

Shallan, for example, as is obvious from the books and was later revealed in WoB, had progressed far as a Lightweaver when she was a child; we're not seeing her discover her powers, we're seeing her rediscover them. She has the Blade not because Lightweavers get them at the First Ideal, but because she's spoken many more Truths long ago.

[maxal]

And I still think your interpretation is an enormous stretch. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree until we learn more.

 

Well, I would not use words "enormous stretch" to describe it as it is a rather common interpretation of the scene. I also said, "I believe it is most likely outcome", not the "only outcome". I purposefully included the words "I", "believe" and "likely" to enforce the fact it was my personal reading which I do agree may be wrong. I am not convinced it is the case, but I am being led to believe it must be. 

 

I thus don't say I agree nor disagree with you on this specific matter. It could very well be Lift was simply rephrasing an oath she already spoken a while back, it could be she did not need to say it to revive Gawx, however the string of events made me believe it was not the case.

 

I am perfectly open to the fact I could be wrong about it and I never claimed to be right about it either. It just seems more likely, but more likely does not mean true or right. How many things seemed "more likely" at the end of WoK that ended being wrong? I can name a few character related ones... but that may not be what you are looking for.

 

I can agree to disagree with you, though technically I don't necessarily disagree. We do need to learn more.

 

 

Okay but... you know I'm right about at least some of it, though, right? The stuff that happens way, way earlier in the book? Like Kaladin being able to use Full .Lashings for most of it? Do you not remember those parts, either? 

 

I remember Kaladin dragging a bag of spheres on him, emptying them after his bridge runs, though not really understanding what he was doing. I remember Kaladin drawing the arrows away from him, but I do not remember him having the conscious thought he needed to draw them away. Not until the end where he gets a 100 on one single piece of armor, which in turns injured his arm. I also recall how he lay useless and injured on the side until he spoke the 2nd oath before which he did not seem to be able to heal himself. I recall he had no more stormlight, but I do not recall if the one he used to heal himself came from his poach or the Parshendis jewels. I remember that, after healing, he consciously drew on the stormlight from gems he was not touching. I remember that was the first time he fought like that he did seem more empowered than before. 

 

That's more or less what I remember, which I agree I may be missing clue elements. I thus really need to re-read the scene because I am sure you would agree my "memory recollection" makes for a poor argument.

 

You may be entirely right. What you say did make a lot of sense, but you are fighting against the common assumption oaths do grant extra powers. Again, I am absolutely not bias on one side nor the other. I can easily be convinced either ways. In fact, I am waiting to be told what I have assumed is wrong.

 

 

Well, yeah, many pivotal ones I, and several others, keep bookmarked for exactly occasions like this; as  you've shown regarding the Tower part, our own recollections are faulty, so if we're planning to discuss whether or not a thing has happened, or what the relevant WoB is, it makes debates much more smooth if we're able to cite sources, or re-read them ourselves and make sure it says what we think it said.

 

Shallan, for example, as is obvious from the books and was later revealed in WoB, had progressed far as a Lightweaver when she was a child; we're not seeing her discover her powers, we're seeing her rediscover them. She has the Blade not because Lightweavers get them at the First Ideal, but because she's spoken many more Truths long ago.

 

I keep track of a few which are of interest to me as well, but not that one. I'll try to make a research later on. I'm kind of sunbathing right now.... 

 

I do agree about Shallan which is why I mentioned her. The common assumption is she gained her Blade because Lightweavers obtain them early on which may not be right with Shallan. She did progress far along the path to the Lightweavers, as a child (though how far, we do not know), but she regressed when she killed her mother. Had she spoken her 3rd oaths/truth at the time which is why Pattern was able to achieve Blade form or was it Lightweavers truly get their Blade very early on? We do not know. However, I did notice we do not see Pattern the Blade until Shallan speaks her 3rd oath (or 2nd truth) again... So was it really available to her during those years? My thoughts are Lightweavers are a tricky order: you need to be faithful to yourself, the second you start lying to yourself again, no matter how far you progress, you regress. Is Blade form still available to those who previously had it, but regressed? Heck I have no idea, but it sounds if perhaps not.

[Grey Knight]

I, personally, really want Lopen to turn out to be a Surgbinder, because he fits so perfectly with the description of a Willshaper.

 

Also, to Oudeis, what's with the grudge against Teft?

[Oudeis]

Also, to Oudeis, what's with the grudge against Teft?

 

So not opening this can of worms back up.