Marns she/her Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I've been thinking about Hemalurgy and how it works and we know by WoB that hemalurgy can steal another investitures so.... if a Surgebinder is stabbed with a hemalurgic spike what would be stolen? The Nahel Bond? ( the spren will die then? ) the ability to breath stormlight? or maybe abilities related to the surges? This last option is more similar to the way hemalurgy works on allomancers and feruchemist, but Surgebinding don't work like allomancy or feruchemy, a surgebinder gains his abilities through the nahel bond so... what do you think? Any ideas? 2
Lord Tavash Shar Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 We know that the spren some how Ties them selves to the spirit web of the Surge Binder and that is how they can breath stormlight and use surges in the first place. I assume that the actual part of the spren that is in the spirit web is what is removed.It would help if we knew what the spren actually did to the spirit web of there surgebinder. 1
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 It would first depend on what TYPE of Surgebinder was stabbed. A KR, you'd likely steal the bond, and then have to contend with a very annoyed Spren. If you did nothing to violate that orders oaths you'd probably be able to keep the powers. A Herald, on the other hand, you'd get something else. I don't think we have enough info so say what outside of pure guessing. (I suspect you'd end up being bound by the Oathpact, whatever that means)
Arook he/him Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 HMM interesting plan I think that yes you can totally steal the bond. However Stealing a Surgebinder's bond would almost certainly kill the spren (i.e. make spren become like a shardblade) involved. If it went directly from one user to the next spending no time outside the body and the recipient had the correct mental inclination it may live. My money is on it straight turning it into a Shardblade or just drive the person made mad a with dead screaming spren attached to their soul. I think I'm going to ask that on the ama. 1
Marns she/her Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 It would first depend on what TYPE of Surgebinder was stabbed. A KR, you'd likely steal the bond, and then have to contend with a very annoyed Spren. If you did nothing to violate that orders oaths you'd probably be able to keep the powers. A Herald, on the other hand, you'd get something else. I don't think we have enough info so say what outside of pure guessing. (I suspect you'd end up being bound by the Oathpact, whatever that means) This is really interesting. I suppose that in the case of a Herald what would be stolen is the "bond" with Honor? Another question and interesting to ask Sanderson is about the material of the spike. I don't believe metal spike would work on Roshar... maybe a gemstone spike? If this is the case would that spike have a spren inside? 1
natc Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Why would it not work? Hemalurgy uses the same metals as the other two systems, and is not like allomancers can burn gems. And that power should work anywhere. If anything it's a bigger question as to whether surgebinding works off-world, if the WoB about seons on Roshar granting some form of power is to be trusted.
Axies he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Why would it not work? Hemalurgy uses the same metals as the other two systems, and is not like allomancers can burn gems. And that power should work anywhere. If anything it's a bigger question as to whether surgebinding works off-world, if the WoB about seons on Roshar granting some form of power is to be trusted. How would it work? No with the metals we know right now but... if we get new metals... there would be one for Surgebinding or one for each of the Surges? That makes me think. Would you be able to charge a spike on Roshar or you have to take the Surgebinder to Scadrial to make that work? Edited June 11, 2015 by Axies 1
Guest Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 The Spike would likely be a standard Hemalurgic metal, but the LOCATION you need to Spike would be unusual.
Marns she/her Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 It have sense that the spike have to be a hemalurgic metal but I think of what Axies said. About the locations could be some places related to ten essences? and that its what determinate the ability? 1
Guest Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 It could very well be those locations if each Surge needs to be stolen separately, but the way a KR gets their powers makes me think both Surges would be stolen at once with a single Spike.
Guest Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 HMM interesting plan I think that yes you can totally steal the bond. However Stealing a Surgebinder's bond would almost certainly kill the spren (i.e. make spren become like a shardblade) involved. If it went directly from one user to the next spending no time outside the body and the recipient had the correct mental inclination it may live. My money is on it straight turning it into a Shardblade or just drive the person made mad a with dead screaming spren attached to their soul. I think I'm going to ask that on the ama. But killing the Spren would remove any Surgebinding ability, making Surgebinding impossible to steal.
Axies he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 But killing the Spren would remove any Surgebinding ability, making Surgebinding impossible to steal. But what if, instead of killing the Spren you "bind" it to your soul? You spike the pice of the sDNA binded with the spren and then you spike this sDNA to your soul. Of course at first the spren would be annoyed by that or... maybe it just returns to a "unconscious" state (like Syl as a "windspren") and from there you can "rebuild" the bind and become a Surgebinder.
Turos Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Interesting. Spikes take a part of the soul, so perhaps that is sufficient for a spren to survive. Edited June 11, 2015 by Turos
Guest Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 That was my point Axies. Either the Spren dies and Surgebinding effectively can't be stolen, or the Spren survives and it can be, but what we can't have is dead Spren + Surgebinding successfully stolen. Maybe in this case Hemalurgic Decay would represent the strength of the Bond, rather than the Spren itself?
Axies he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Maybe in this case Hemalurgic Decay would represent the strength of the Bond, rather than the Spren itself? That's what I was thinking... If you spike someone (say Kaladin at the end of WoR) and the spike is perfect the point is exact and you put the spike through that "donor" into the "Inquisitor"... would the "Inquisitor" have the same bond with Syl like Kal had? I can't talk about the "friendship" they share, but the bond... What I don't know is... the "Inquisitor" still has to say the words to use the Surge? or they count as "said"? 1
Lord Tavash Shar Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Not sure. The words seem to act as a sort of snapping while the type of spren it self acts as the Metal or Anon gate priming what they want the power as.And yet this is not Anon Dor or Allomancy. This is a Symbiotic relationship between two thinking beings (Living may not be the right word for a cognitive aspect such as a spren. They may actually have a different definition as a dead spren can be "Resurected" and/or the shard worlds gravity does not seem to have disappears from the loss of honor spren so they may still in some way be doing there job.) While the investiture it self and some of its cognitive aspects are the same I don't think we can even use breath as a real example of function. Breaths are passed between beings and while they travel via cognitive acceptance of "words" they are not necessarily sentient in there living state.If we had an example of a bond with a spren prior any shards arrival we might be able to make a clearer comparison.... But as far as we know at that time spren were simpler.Weird question. The Listeners were on Roshar before humans right? Could they have been created by Adonalsium and the "simple" spren been a true symbiotic mutualism inherent in there design.Dull forms remind me in some ways of Kandra. Almost like they cannot access there cognitive aspect without a spren bond. Edited June 11, 2015 by Lord Tavash Shar 2
Arook he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 The problem I see with this is we do not know enough about how the bond interacts to create powers. The Nahel bond is an attachment to a persons spirit but other than that we can not explain why a Spren dies. All we can tell is that when the owner of the bond changes his thinking to something opposed to the bond(Kaladin letting someone die, Shallan no longer speaking) the Spren breaks in some fundamental way. You can not steal the surges from the person if how I understand this is right because the surge is a benefit of the bond not a inherent trait of the users spiritweb like Allomancy or Feruchemy. So long as the recipient of the stolen bond does not think or act in a fundamentally opposite way to the Spren attached to the bond it should remain in tact. For this kind of hemalurgy your stealing the part of the Spiritweb were the bond attaches. Of course there is no way to know that if the bond is broken a shard blade will appear unless the Spren was in blade form first. Surgebinding and the ability to use Stormlight are things available to users because of a synthesis of thought between the Spren and Human. I may be confusing this so real short what I'm trying to say is no bond no surges Although maybe Hemalurgy is able to force a Spren to function the bond even with a user in opposition to them, like chaining a Spren to your soul. This I feel would only end badly on account of the telepathy inherent in the bond. Just think about how Renarin had to be for the week it took to bond his blade only it never stops EVER all day all night just pissed off Spren screaming at you forever. As for the Listeners Brandon is pretty close lipped about their history but there are hints that they have been around long before the shards arrived. I think once one of the Spren refer to them as the ancient ones. Small hints that the Gods were not always their gods. I don't think that they were limited to thinking Spren like humans are but there were some thinking Spren before the Shards if I remember correctly. 1
Marns she/her Posted June 12, 2015 Author Posted June 12, 2015 The problem I see with this is we do not know enough about how the bond interacts to create powers. The Nahel bond is an attachment to a persons spirit but other than that we can not explain why a Spren dies. All we can tell is that when the owner of the bond changes his thinking to something opposed to the bond(Kaladin letting someone die, Shallan no longer speaking) the Spren breaks in some fundamental way. You can not steal the surges from the person if how I understand this is right because the surge is a benefit of the bond not a inherent trait of the users spiritweb like Allomancy or Feruchemy. So long as the recipient of the stolen bond does not think or act in a fundamentally opposite way to the Spren attached to the bond it should remain in tact. For this kind of hemalurgy your stealing the part of the Spiritweb were the bond attaches. Of course there is no way to know that if the bond is broken a shard blade will appear unless the Spren was in blade form first. Surgebinding and the ability to use Stormlight are things available to users because of a synthesis of thought between the Spren and Human. I may be confusing this so real short what I'm trying to say is no bond no surges I think the same, the way I figure Surgebinding is impossible to force a bond ( at least a Nahel bond, maybe in the case of a Herald is different). By the way Brandon say Rafo when someone ask him if the spikes could be of other materials like gems.... 1
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