Infinite Investiture through metalminds and changes to Hemalurgy discussion

[Guest]

For some reason I thought I heard it needed to be scadrial metal

166 and 198

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27allomancy%27

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Moogle

 

Ah, you're right, I suppose how I model it is forward time travel.

 

To me that seems like there's a difference between the consistent investure in the spirit web that allows for potential of the attribute and the actual Investure/energy or whatever you want to call it that ultimately takes an effect in the physical world.

 

Historically I would agree with this model, and I've argued as such regarding Hemalurgy, Breath, and Feruchemy. But given this (sadly, paraphrased) WoB about how Breath works, it seems like we can't get away with fundamentally distinguishing between the two types of investiture. There's definitely a distinction to be made on some level, but it seems that both "types" are still just investiture, rather than being "investiture" and "freeish energy produced by investiture".

 

This is a problem because if something we want to call "investiture" is left sitting in metalminds at the end of that day then the whole "can neither be created nor destroyed" thing doesn't let us just say it's a different type of investiture and move on.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Edgedancer he/him]

Historically I would agree with this model, and I've argued as such regarding Hemalurgy, Breath, and Feruchemy. But given this (sadly, paraphrased) WoB about how Breath works, it seems like we can't get away with fundamentally distinguishing between the two types of investiture. There's definitely a distinction to be made on some level, but it seems that both "types" are still just investiture, rather than being "investiture" and "freeish energy produced by investiture".

 

This is a problem because if something we want to call "investiture" is left sitting in metalminds at the end of that day then the whole "can neither be created nor destroyed" thing doesn't let us just say it's a different type of investiture and move on.

Not necessarily. Given that everything is Investure there very well could be "static" Investure acting similar to an organ and Investure that travels through the system. Given that food/nurishment too would be Investure it makes sense that the energy we get from it also would be some form of Investure, which a Metalmind could then draw from for its storage.

Just because everything is Investure doesn't mean all types of Investure have to act the same way given that this is a very raw form of magical energy.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Got an answer from the AMA:

 

Source:

Kurkistan:

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

 

Brandon:

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

 

So time-scuttling as the solution takes a torpedo: might have to sink my new interpretation of it... 

 

It seems like Brandon is saying here that the energy is coming from stuff. So everyone who's been talking about storing brain chemicals to model Determination and the like might not actually be too far off base. So, to pick an example at random, I'd guess that storing Speed is a matter of storing energy that could have been generated by movement? Under this model it seems that eating a hearty breakfast is actually going to help you be able to store more. 

 

Strength is easier, I guess, since you can perhaps get energy from "compressing" muscle mass without necessarily depleting it permanently, and then it just reverts back naturally...

 

In regards to how this impacts the "neutral" nature of Feruchemy, I guess it may be best to fall back to "neutral" meaning "internally sourced" rather than "actually not relying on anything but the bare practitioner", though I guess we were already doing that with Feruchemical bendalloy and Feruchemical cadmium and Feruchemical brass..,

 

This needs a bit more thought. 

[Moogle]

Excellent job getting an answer.

 

I am quite pleased my original logic worked out: Feruchemists are harvesting Investiture from the environment, and now we know they're doing it at least partially through matter conversion. Getting a theory half-right is quite rare!

 

I am, however, more than a little skeptical on storing strength. Temporarily converting your muscles into energy and then putting them back to normal should not give you a net gain of stored energy unless it's doing more than just turning muscles back to normal. Some potential energy has to be lost somewhere, which implies you should get tired by filling a pewtermind, and this just plain doesn't seem to be the case for Wax storing weight. Nor does it solve the infinite amounts of energy generated through Feruchemical iron, unless tapping from a higher point on Scadrial's surface gives you less total kilogram-seconds (which is never brought up by Wax).

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yeah I'm not going to put any money on how Strength (or most anything else beyond Bendalloy/Cadmium/Brass) works just yet; needs some stewing time.

[Guest]

Nor does it solve the infinite amounts of energy generated through Feruchemical iron, unless tapping from a higher point on Scadrial's surface gives you less total kilogram-seconds (which is never brought up by Wax).

 

This would ultimately be based on WHAT, specifically, is being stored. For example, if Wax stored 1 min of 100% weight on Roshar and then traveled to Scadrial, would the Scadrial scale show him as 2.0 times weight or 1.7 times weight while tapping that weight for 1 min?

 

Edit: I can't spell, and needed to be clearer.

Edited June 5, 2015 by LabRat

[Kurkistan he/him]

Well Wax never stores weight, he stores mass, so it really shouldn't matter which planet he's on.

 

Regarding Feruchemical iron's infinite energy generation, I think that's a separate question from infinite investiture; we've known forever that you could generate infinite mechanical energy just from judiciously storing f1ron, let alone tapping it.

 

So far as where the "energy" for the Investiture itself comes from... maybe we could swing something about siphoning off some potential energy from inertia or the like? Something that doesn't rely on what altitude Wax is at at the very least.

[Moogle]

See, the problem is that Brandon implies energy can be turned into Investiture. Feruchemical iron can generate infinite energy, therefore it can make infinite Investiture.

From this, I conclude that Feruchemical iron doesn't work this way and that you can't generate infinite Investiture from it.

Or I'm misinterpreting the WoB.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think it may be best not to go too too far into conservation laws on this, since Investiture is kind of established as how Brandon goes about cheating thermodynamics. Consider Breath: they can also generate mechanical energy for nearly indefinite periods of time using some kind of "investiture recycling" process that looks to be entirely internal to them; so if Feruchemical iron generating mechanical energy out of nowhere is a problem so is Breath. It's a slippery slope.

[Moogle]

I agree that it is a slippery slope, but if energy/mass can become Investiture and Investiture can produce infinite energy, then Investiture can't possibly be conserved.

Personally, my first thought is that Brandon didn't think things through when he said Investiture cannot be created/destroyed. But I've been wrong on that before, so I am hesitant to say that.

 

---

 

Edit: Alright, I'm thinking that Investiture can be divided into types. You've got Shardic Investiture, which is associated with an Intent - think Breaths. Then you've got 'natural' Investiture, like that created by converting matter/energy to Investiture, like Feruchemists apparently do.

 

Shardic Investiture can constantly generate energy, but 'natural' Investiture cannot. Feruchemical Investiture can be converted into however many joules of energy, and can be created from the same amount (in an ideal scenario - maybe there's some inefficiencies in conversion in practice).

 

Then, if we take the WoB where Brandon says Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, and assume he was referring to Shardic Investiture, things can be done in a consistent manner.

 

I think this is one of the easier ways to resolve the WoBs, but it isn't a natural interpretation to make which gives it a huge plausibility penalty.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Moogle