Random Thoughts of mine

[Meg]

There came some random thoughts up in my brain (once again).

1.

The Almighty/Honor is the "Creator of Mankind".

He is also named Elithanathile, who is "He Who Transforms"

1.1

"He Who Transforms" may be another hint that surgebinding and soulcasting are from Honor.

1.2

But: What did Honor "transform" to "create mankind"?

1.3

Roshar is in the same cosmere as Sel, Nalthis and Scadrial, right? There are humans too. From TWoK we know that around 4'500 years before TWoK there had been mankind on Roshar too, cast out from the Tranquiline Hills.

Question: Did not all humans strand on Roshar, because where should these on the other planets come from? So mankind on the other planets had been cast out of the Tranquiline Hills (Heaven?) too? I don't think that Honor created different kinds of mankind. But then what about Preservation and Ruin? Questions about questions ...

2. Similarities in phrases

2.1

The "Prime Kadasix may provide ...".

The Purelaker God "send that ...".

2.2

I'm not sure, but can Van Makak and Nu Ralik be Purelaker names for Heralds (and so be revered as gods like Jezrien in Sesemalex Dar)?

It may be (I'm not sure) that Ishikk is from Yulay and there are some people awaiting the Heralds.

2.3

Elithanathile is "He Who Transforms" and

the Shin revere "He Who Adds".

3. People in Yulay

Might they be another group of Envisagers or wittingly or unwittingly related? I wonder why Teft didn't react to Sigzil when he brought this up.

4. Stormlight

A human body is too porous a container, said Szeth, about holding Stormlight. The next problem is that Stormlight flees the body when breathing.

Now when somebody infused more Stormlight than he spends he has to release the rest unused.

Stormlight can be willed into stones or other objects (Kaladin when he pressed the sack of medical things at the barrel, later the stone in one of the alleys between the barracks, the stones he used as ladder).

Now my question is: Can't (or better why can't) Stormlight be willed back into spheres and -- on the other side -- (why) can't Stormlight not be taken from infused objects?

Am I splitting hairs? Or has someone also ideas about this?

edit: added point 1.3

edit 2013, April 6 -- added point 4 (and repaired post)

Edited April 6, 2013 by Meg

[NewbSombrero he/him]

Just a random thought off of 2.3, but what if "He Who Adds" is Cultivation? It certainly seems to match the intent.

Edit: I just thought about the fact that we know Cultivation to be female, but the thought still stands. Maybe the Shin perception of her is just slightly shifted.

Edited February 10, 2013 by NewbSombrero

[happyman he/him]

1.2

But: What did Honor "transform" to "create mankind"?

Oooh, I like this. Maybe by adding a bit of honor to humans, he managed to make something else sapient? What an interesting idea. I like. Since humans might not be native to Roshar, any predecessors wouldn't necessarily be expected to exist on Roshar either.

Fascinating. I wonder what Honor and Cultivation could have done if they worked together (which they might have)? That could explain a lot about Roshar.

[KingKong]

There came some random thoughts up in my brain (once again).

1.

The Almighty/Honor is the "Creator of Mankind".

He is also named Elithanathile, who is "He Who Transforms".

I believe Odium is Elithanathile "He Who Transforms". Odium has been on the two Shardworlds we've seen Transformation Magic practiced. Parshendi can change or transform to survive & other Voidbringers were know to change during Desolations. Odiums prolonged stay on Roshar may be the explaination behind the planet's highly adapted life.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

As far as relating the Purelaker gods to other beings goes: Vun Makak seems more like Odium, and Nu Ralik a bit more like Honor. But I wouldn't try to stretch these too far.

1.3 More Cosmere than Stormlight:

I think most of the Shards themselves are humans from Yolen, like Hoid himself. (Yolen is also where Hoid's origin story will take place, and a thousand years (?) after that, Dragonsteel.) After the Shattering and the taking up of the Shards by the various humans, there may have been a diaspora. I don't know if the Shards brought humans to the new worlds with them and altered the humans, or if the Shards chose pre-existing worlds with already existent human populations. We're told that Preservation and Ruin both Invested themselves into the humanity on Scadrial.

I think that all the humans came from one place originally, but I don't have any idea how long ago they all inhabited a common world. Note to self:Brandon says they all came from Yolen. It's possible that it was before even the events of the Hoid origin story. It's notable that there are a few races derived from humanity that no longer are considered human: Aimians, Parshendi, Koloss, and Mistwraiths/Kandra. Of these four, Aimians and Parshendi are the most humanlike. Ishikk still recognized the Seventeenth Sharders as being human, and at least one of them each were from Scadrial (Demoux) and Sel (Galladon).

[Satsuoni he/him]

Preservation and Ruin specifically made humans (and most of the life) on Scadrial "in form of something they have seen before", so Scadrial humans have certainly not originated anywhere, but were cheap, inferior knockoffs of Yolen humans (I do jest about inferior)

[Meg]

I believe Odium is Elithanathile "He Who Transforms".

This would mean Vorinism worships Odium?

And what did Odium transform on Sel (I think your hinting on the Shaod)?

I've to admit that I can't really follow this idea, sorry.

As far as relating the Purelaker gods to other beings goes: Vun Makak seems more like Odium, and Nu Ralik a bit more like Honor. But I wouldn't try to stretch these too far.

I don't deny this but I didn't think of Vun Makak and Nu Ralik as gods but as "heralds to be awaited for coming back". I hope this is understandable. Though they may be revered like gods I would not give them the same 'rank' as Honor/Odium/Cultivation etc.

I think that all the humans came from one place originally, but I don't have any idea how long ago they all inhabited a common world

Could this mean that Yolen had been the ur-planet where Adanalsium was the only Shard.

/Speculation:

And now it grows immoderate random and fantastic: (Premise: We don't know whether Yolen still exists ->) There was something like a Big Bang, Adanalsium was shattered into the different shards and Yolen was shattered into the different planets in the cosmere.

/end of speculation

Preservation and Ruin specifically made humans (and most of the life) on Scadrial "in form of something they have seen before", so Scadrial humans have certainly not originated anywhere, but were cheap, inferior knockoffs of Yolen humans :)/> (I do jest about inferior)

Ohh, when I read this I thought: "You should have known/remembered that." :-)

[Straff Venture he/him]

Could this mean that Yolen had been the ur-planet where Adanalsium was the only Shard.

/Speculation:

And now it grows immoderate random and fantastic: (Premise: We don't know whether Yolen still exists ->) There was something like a Big Bang, Adanalsium was shattered into the different shards and Yolen was shattered into the different planets in the cosmere.

/end of speculation

Ohh, when I read this I thought: "You should have known/remembered that." :-)

The Dragonsteel series continues post-shattering (the first two books take place while Adonalsium is still around), so it's fairly likely that Yolen is still around after the shattering. Still, I like the idea

[Leuthie]

Aimians and Parshendi might be native to Roshar

[Vortaan he/him]

To 1.1, I always figured that Elithanathile was actually another Shard, that was somehow damaged by not Splintered by Odium, leading to the whole "The Broken One reigns" quote. Perhaps Cultivation, the name does seem feminine to me. It does seem odd that Odium would Splinter Honor but leave Cultivation undamaged...

[Meg]

To 1.1, I always figured that Elithanathile was actually another Shard, that was somehow damaged by not Splintered by Odium, leading to the whole "The Broken One reigns" quote. Perhaps Cultivation, the name does seem feminine to me. It does seem odd that Odium would Splinter Honor but leave Cultivation undamaged...

 

 

Sorry for my late answer. Though I'm spending far too much time hanging around here I missed your reply. 

 

I don't understand this: "that was somehow damaged by not Splintered ..."? 

 

Other than others I'm fairly sure that the conflict on Roshar is mostly one between Honor and Odium. In my opinion Cultivation is more passive and what acts passive might not be a threat for Odium and it might not be (so easily) touched by Odium. 

 

 

 

_______________

 

I added a No. 4 to the OP: 

 

 

4. Stormlight

A human body is too porous a container, said Szeth, about holding Stormlight. The next problem is that Stormlight flees the body when breathing.

Now when somebody infused more Stormlight than he spends he has to release the rest unused.

Stormlight can be willed into stones or other objects (Kaladin when he pressed the sack of medical things at the barrel, later the stone in one of the alleys between the barracks, the stones he used as ladder).

Now my question is: Can't (or better why can't) Stormlight be willed back into spheres and -- on the other side -- (why) can't Stormlight not be taken from infused objects?

 

 

Has anybody any thoughts about this? 

 

[Vortaan he/him]

Sorry for my late answer. Though I'm spending far too much time hanging around here I missed your reply. 

 

I don't understand this: "that was somehow damaged by not Splintered ..."? 

 

Other than others I'm fairly sure that the conflict on Roshar is mostly one between Honor and Odium. In my opinion Cultivation is more passive and what acts passive might not be a threat for Odium and it might not be (so easily) touched by Odium. 

 

I'm just randomly speculating there, but if there is another Shard on Roshar that is anti-Odium, like Preservation is anti-Ruin, Rayse may have only been able to damage, but not kill said Shard, without killing himself. I don't see Odium doing that, so that's a possibility.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Even though Kaladin thinks of it as "willing the Stormlight" into the objects, he's actually using a Full Lashing.  So it's not actually the same thing.  I'm not sure why he can't put the Stormlight back into a sphere if he doesn't need it, it's possible that there's a change in form as soon as he absorbs it, that no longer allows it to go back into its original container (a gem).

[darkanimereal1]

Could this mean that Yolen had been the ur-planet where Adanalsium was the only Shard.

 

 

First: is German your native language? I'm just finishing up a degree in German and your "ur-planet" made me smile It made me stop for a second, not because I didn't understand it, but because it made so much sense to me that I forgot it was in a different language.

 

As for Honor's names, Coppermind claims that he has ten different names. Ten seems to be Honor's "Holy number" the same way that

16 had such huge significance for Leras in Mistborn

That, along with the fact that Elithanathile is a palindrome, makes me think that it is referring to Honor rather than Odium.

[Meg]

First: is German your native language? I'm just finishing up a degree in German and your "ur-planet" made me smile It made me stop for a second, not because I didn't understand it, but because it made so much sense to me that I forgot it was in a different language.

 

Yes, you're right, I'm German.  

 

 

 

As for Honor's names, Coppermind claims that he has ten different names. Ten seems to be Honor's "Holy number" the same way that

16 had such huge significance for Leras in Mistborn

That, along with the fact that Elithanathile is a palindrome, makes me think that it is referring to Honor rather than Odium.

 

In TWoK it's said that such palindromes are the most 'holy' names in Vorinism (Laral, Urithiru, Shin Kak Nish, Sela Tales ...). I personally am sure that Elithanathile doesn't refer to Odium. 

[darkanimereal1]

Yes, you're right, I'm German.

 

That's awesome! I envy your language skills to be able to read a book in English and have such complex discussions about it on a forum like this. I've studied a lot of German literature and had to write detailed papers analyzing it, but never just in an off-the-wall discussion like this

 

In TWoK it's said that such palindromes are the most 'holy' names in Vorinism (Laral, Urithiru, Shin Kak Nish, Sela Tales ...). I personally am sure that Elithanathile doesn't refer to Odium. 

 

Exactly. This is what makes me think it has nothing to do with Odium. 

 

The only possibility (and I actually consider it an unlikely but possible situation because Sanderson has been known to create crazy twists like this) is that Vorinism was somehow corrupted by Odium. It could be that during the Hierocracy or some time after that Odium was able to manipulate the teachings to focus on him, so that the people are accidentally worshiping the wrong "god." I view this as highly unlikely, but it's just the kind of thing that Sanderson would whip up to boggle the minds of his readers.

[Meg]

That's awesome! I envy your language skills to be able to read a book in English and have such complex discussions about it on a forum like this. I've studied a lot of German literature and had to write detailed papers analyzing it, but never just in an off-the-wall discussion like this

 

Now you really nonplussed me. Thank you very much.

 

I, uhm, ran out of books so to say and was looking for a challenge too, so I took BS's books in English. Now I'm kind of stuck with them (especially TWoK) and looking for information I found this forums. Now I dare participate here but I'm not really generally good in English. One big advantage of this internet-things is that the dictionary is quite comfortable to use . 

 

 

Exactly. This is what makes me think it has nothing to do with Odium. 

 

The only possibility (and I actually consider it an unlikely but possible situation because Sanderson has been known to create crazy twists like this) is that Vorinism was somehow corrupted by Odium. It could be that during the Hierocracy or some time after that Odium was able to manipulate the teachings to focus on him, so that the people are accidentally worshiping the wrong "god." I view this as highly unlikely, but it's just the kind of thing that Sanderson would whip up to boggle the minds of his readers.

 

 

Hm, that idea about Hierocracy and corruption is nice. Then, naturally, the question is: Did the fall of the hierocracy, too, reverse the corruption? 

 

As a side note: there is a lot of stuff around BS's books that "boggle my mind".

[Isomere]

I love the idea of the Alethi accidentally worshiping Odium, especially since the cultural Ideals of Vorinism seem to undermine Honor's Intent. I think the word Eli-etcetera is supposed to be a name for Honor, but actions speak louder than words when it comes to worship.

that idea about Hierocracy and corruption is nice. Then, naturally, the question is: Did the fall of the hierocracy, too, reverse the corruption? 

What I have heard of the fall of Heirocracy sounds pretty bad too. Most of the info comes from current Ardents in the book with natural bias, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm guessing there was a big war, and the priests lost. Some guy named the Sunmaker was on the side that won, and he smashed the priest's faces into the ground repeatedly. Sunmaker opposed prophecy and made two contradictory arguments to vilify it:

1)The corrupt priests never had any real prophecy, so it isn't actually possible to predict the future. Anyone claiming to have visions is lying for personal gain.

2) Voidbringers really could see the future, but they are the enemy of mankind. Anyone that has visions is evil and associated with the Voidbringers.

This all had the result of preventing people from hearing the message recorded in the Highstorms. If we believe that Tanavast is talking to Dalinar through the visions, the fall of Heirocracy may have been even worse than the initial corruption was.