Theories in progress

[Stormfather]

The last few days I've been thinking about life, the Cosmere, and the meaning of all things. Here are a few budding ideas that I'm trying to have grow and see what holes are punched in them. Be gentle, they're babies and some of you would have WAY too much fun punching babies *eyes a few people*

1 - The Parshendi were either created to/have left their divine given tast to protect the dawnshards and in some kind of way hold them up as sacred. I get this from the prolog, the Heralds were supposed to meet at the spire in the broken lands and buried their blades there. I remember reading Dallinar or Sedas saying that the Parshendi fight harder the closer they get to the spire and they have never taken it. I think this is because they are stopping them from getting into the wrong hands.

2- The Heralds were the champion for Honor, this is why Odium worked so hard to take them down. The Oathpact was them holding up Honors side of the agreement that in some way was not in Odium's favor, but if the champion willingly breaks it, then it would be Honor in this case not being Honorable and going against his shard. This could have weakened Honor to the point that Odium was able to splinter him

3 - The key for the Knights Radiant will deal with the Shin and old Vorinism.

4 - The Knights Radiant left because Honor had been splintered and there was no honor in the world. This could make some of what they did less effective/powerful if they draw their power from honorable deeds (I view their first oath of protecting those who need protecting as an honorable thing that ties them in with Honor)

Just wanted some thoughts. Others need more work than some, but feel like each has a solid plausibility. In my head, haha

[Voidus]

1 - The Parshendi were either created to/have left their divine given tast to protect the dawnshards and in some kind of way hold them up as sacred. I get this from the prolog, the Heralds were supposed to meet at the spire in the broken lands and buried their blades there. I remember reading Dallinar or Sedas saying that the Parshendi fight harder the closer they get to the spire and they have never taken it. I think this is because they are stopping them from getting into the wrong hands.

I'm pretty sure that the Heralds had Honorblades, and that the Dawnshards were something different, could just be different names for the same thing, and it's not a real problem but yeah. Anyway, I really like this, although it does beg the question of why they don't use them against the Alethi.

2- The Heralds were the champion for Honor, this is why Odium worked so hard to take them down. The Oathpact was them holding up Honors side of the agreement that in some way was not in Odium's favor, but if the champion willingly breaks it, then it would be Honor in this case not being Honorable and going against his shard. This could have weakened Honor to the point that Odium was able to splinter him

That sounds about right to me.

4 - The Knights Radiant left because Honor had been splintered and there was no honor in the world. This could make some of what they did less effective/powerful if they draw their power from honorable deeds (I view their first oath of protecting those who need protecting as an honorable thing that ties them in with Honor)

A couple problems with this one, firstly being that a Shards cognitive aspect only affects the population of their Shardworld in small ways, it's not a big effect so it shouldn't cause people to act less honorably really. Secondly the KR have already gained their powers, I don't think that they had variable strength due to how honorable they are, and as they were heavily invested with Honor anyway, the splintering shouldn't really affect their Honorability at all. Third that's the second oath of the Windrunners, not the first of all the KR. The first oath is

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."

[Satsuoni]

What? Babies to punch and I am not invited? This must be addressed immediately

1 - The Parshendi were either created to/have left their divine given tast to protect the dawnshards and in some kind of way hold them up as sacred. I get this from the prolog, the Heralds were supposed to meet at the spire in the broken lands and buried their blades there. I remember reading Dallinar or Sedas saying that the Parshendi fight harder the closer they get to the spire and they have never taken it. I think this is because they are stopping them from getting into the wrong hands.

As the Voidus said. Heralds had Honorblades, which are unlikely to be Dawnshards, since Dawnshards "bind all creatures voidish and mortal". That doesn't sound like something the blade would do... And Seems too strong anyway. It is theorized that Dawnshard was used to create Knights Radiant orders/oaths to begin with.

Also, Heralds were still around when Radiants were founded. Which means that unless the founding was during Desolation, their blades were in whatever hell they existed in between them. Still, it might have been during desolation...

Next, from readings we know that Parchendi live in the center or so of Shattered plains, so the increased resistance may just be them not wanting to lose their main stronghold (with non-fighters in it, no less).

Also, as Voidus mentioned, they waould have used the nice blades. They use shards readily enough.

2- The Heralds were the champion for Honor, this is why Odium worked so hard to take them down. The Oathpact was them holding up Honors side of the agreement that in some way was not in Odium's favor, but if the champion willingly breaks it, then it would be Honor in this case not being Honorable and going against his shard. This could have weakened Honor to the point that Odium was able to splinter him

Yes, they probably were champions. Still, it took a while after they left to kill Tanavast... But maybe.

3 - The key for the Knights Radiant will deal with the Shin and old Vorinism.

Not sure what you mean here... But if it means that some hints leading to restoration of Radiants lie with Shin and old religions, I agree.

4 - The Knights Radiant left because Honor had been splintered and there was no honor in the world. This could make some of what they did less effective/powerful if they draw their power from honorable deeds (I view their first oath of protecting those who need protecting as an honorable thing that ties them in with Honor)

The Visions of Dalinar, except for last one, were Tanavast memories. Which means that he was still alive during Recreance... And honorable words have no bearing on honorable deeds. In case of Oaths, something else is at work (probably the power boost arising from creation of the Radiant orders to begin with, however that was done).

That is about all holes I can find at the moment...

[Stormfather]

I don't know why I can't quote you both back this morning....

1- I was really tired when I typed that, and I meant honorblades, don't know why dawnshards came out. And I agree with both of you that I don't know why they wouldn't use them other than two options. It's a Sword in the Stone kind of thing and they are not able to or they just built around them viewing them as a holy site. Again, not sure exactly.

2- I think Odium still had to find Honor even after the champions were dealt with, so in my mind having the time gap between the Heralds giving up and tracking down Honor to splinter the shard makes sense.

3- Yes that is what I was meaning Satsuoni.

4- Good point Voidus. I'll just scrap that one and put more thought into the other three

[Voidus]

Actually thinking about it, on why they don't use the Honorblades the Parshendi do hold to quite a strict system of Honor, they might think that using such an overwhelming weapon that the enemy don't possess would be dishonorable. So that could still work.

2- I think Odium still had to find Honor even after the champions were dealt with, so in my mind having the time gap between the Heralds giving up and tracking down Honor to splinter the shard makes sense.

On this, Shards can sense eachother, especially if they were on the same planet so I doubt it would be this easy to hide from Odium, he found Aona and Skai easily enough and they were on an entirely different planet.

[Dros]

Actually thinking about it, on why they don't use the Honorblades the Parshendi do hold to quite a strict system of Honor, they might think that using such an overwhelming weapon that the enemy don't possess would be dishonorable. So that could still work.

On this, Shards can sense eachother, especially if they were on the same planet so I doubt it would be this easy to hide from Odium, he found Aona and Skai easily enough and they were on an entirely different planet.

Which always makes me wonder...if Tanavast and Rayse were enemies, why wasn't he ready for Odium to come after him? At least set some type of defense up; he's a Shard, certianly he could have figured something out.

[Voidus]

Which always makes me wonder...if Tanavast and Rayse were enemies, why wasn't he ready for Odium to come after him? At least set some type of defense up; he's a Shard, certianly he could have figured something out.

Odium managed to Splinter two other Shards as well, it's assumed that he's stronger somehow than the others (Probably through less investiture in others)

[Stormfather]

On this, Shards can sense eachother, especially if they were on the same planet so I doubt it would be this easy to hide from Odium, he found Aona and Skai easily enough and they were on an entirely different planet.

How do we know they can sense each other? I had never read that before.

Droz quote: Which always makes me wonder...if Tanavast and Rayse were enemies, why wasn't he ready for Odium to come after him? At least set some type of defense up; he's a Shard, certianly he could have figured something out.

To me, it may deal with having chosen a champion. When I read the quote in WoK with Honor talking about how Dalinar may be able to get Odium to chose a champion, it seems like it is the way to beat the person. As in, if the champion looses/is killed, Odium would suffer the same fate. In my mind the champion loosing would weaken the shard holder, so the Heralds abandoning their honor, turning their back on Honor, and not acting as Honor's champions any more would in essence be the same as the Heralds loosing, so Honor would have been weakened from this. Then it is simple enough for Odium to kill him off as long as the Heralds do not assume their post again.

It could be that Odium dealt a crippling blow by getting the Heralds out of the game, then quickly went and made his move against Aona and Skai because they were an equal threat, or only slightly lesser than Tanavast, then came back and finished off Tanavast later since he was already crippled.

[Dros]

How do we know they can sense each other? I had never read that before.

Droz quote: Which always makes me wonder...if Tanavast and Rayse were enemies, why wasn't he ready for Odium to come after him? At least set some type of defense up; he's a Shard, certianly he could have figured something out.

To me, it may deal with having chosen a champion. When I read the quote in WoK with Honor talking about how Dalinar may be able to get Odium to chose a champion, it seems like it is the way to beat the person. As in, if the champion looses/is killed, Odium would suffer the same fate. In my mind the champion loosing would weaken the shard holder, so the Heralds abandoning their honor, turning their back on Honor, and not acting as Honor's champions any more would in essence be the same as the Heralds loosing, so Honor would have been weakened from this. Then it is simple enough for Odium to kill him off as long as the Heralds do not assume their post again.

It could be that Odium dealt a crippling blow by getting the Heralds out of the game, then quickly went and made his move against Aona and Skai because they were an equal threat, or only slightly lesser than Tanavast, then came back and finished off Tanavast later since he was already crippled.

There's a good possibility you're right. But I'm still trying to figure out why Odium is doing this in the first place. I know he loathes everything, but that doesn't necessarily translate into action. The goth girl in the back of a room hating the other kids is a form of odium too, but that doesn't mean anymore than an emotion. You don't have to act on that emotion to retain that emotion. By the simple fact that Odium isn't picking up the Shards of his victims, shows he doesn't wish to change his Intent. So why kill anything? Killing, even by evil people, is a means to an ends. It's used to resolve something. Rayse isn't trying to stop hating...killing the Shardholders won't necesarily make him hate any more than he does and, if he doesn't want to change his Intent, even after killing them, he's still hating them. Nothing in his actions does anything to progress the Intent of his Shard.

Hate is an emotion, which is different than the other Shards. Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion...these all have actions associated with them. In order to satisfy the Intent of Ruin...things must be destroyed or broken down, in order to satisfy the Intent of Cultivation...things must be given a way to become better, etc. However, you don't really have to do anything to hate, even if you really hate something, i.e. in order to satisfy the Intent of Odium...all you have to do is just not like things. He could sit on his Shardcouch, eating Shardcheetos, talking Shardsmack about Honor all day and night and that would satisfy his Intent the same as anything else.

So...

You think maybe Rayse went nutso crazy? I mean, playing with feces type crazy? Charlie Manson crazy? You don't have to kill to hate, but hateful crazy people can do some scewed up stuff. Maybe that's why Hoid thinks Odium is the most dangerous Shard out there. Maybe he knows Rayse has lost it and he's ganking other Shards.

EDIT: Wanted to add one last thing...if Odium hates everything so much he refuses to Invest his power in anything...then where are the Voidbringers/Unmade, etc. getting their abilities?

Edited January 30, 2013 by Droz

[Stormfather]

There's a good possibility you're right. But I'm still trying to figure out why Odium is doing this in the first place. I know he loathes everything, but that doesn't necessarily translate into action. The goth girl in the back of a room hating the other kids is a form of odium too, but that doesn't mean anymore than an emotion. You don't have to act on that emotion to retain that emotion. By the simple fact that Odium isn't picking up the Shards of his victims, shows he doesn't wish to change his Intent. So why kill anything? Killing, even by evil people, is a means to an ends. It's used to resolve something. Rayse isn't trying to stop hating...killing the Shardholders won't necesarily make him hate any more than he does and, if he doesn't want to change his Intent, even after killing them, he's still hating them. Nothing in his actions does anything to progress the Intent of his Shard.

Hate is an emotion, which is different than the other Shards. Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion...these all have actions associated with them. In order to satisfy the Intent of Ruin...things must be destroyed or broken down, in order to satisfy the Intent of Cultivation...things must be given a way to become better, etc. However, you don't really have to do anything to hate, even if you really hate something, i.e. in order to satisfy the Intent of Odium...all you have to do is just not like things. He could sit on his Shardcouch, eating Shardcheetos, talking Shardsmack about Honor all day and night and that would satisfy his Intent the same as anything else.

So...

You think maybe Rayse went nutso crazy? I mean, playing with feces type crazy? Charlie Manson crazy? You don't have to kill to hate, but hateful crazy people can do some scewed up stuff. Maybe that's why Hoid thinks Odium is the most dangerous Shard out there. Maybe he knows Rayse has lost it and he's ganking other Shards.

EDIT: Wanted to add one last thing...if Odium hates everything so much he refuses to Invest his power in anything...then where are the Voidbringers/Unmade, etc. getting their abilities?

Personally I think the goth thing is a good example because who is the most annoying three personalities? The person that always does the right/honorable thing, the person that loves so much, and the person that tries to have control. This could explain why Odium went after them specifically. As to the other questions of why and where the Voidbringers/Unmade are coming from, I think the answer might be with Bevedin. The letter says Odium is teamed up with Bevedin, but we know nothing else about him/her. Once we get more answers there I think we can figure out more of what is going on

[Elwynn]

The letter says Odium is teamed up with Bevedin, but we know nothing else about him/her. Once we get more answers there I think we can figure out more of what is going on

It doesn't say they teamed up. All it says is that the letter writer holds, and has perpetuated, a grudge against both. Many people would probably agree that they are a team...but I just don't see Odium teaming up with anyone.

I personally tend to think Bavadin was one of the three Gods, but fled to another planet when Odium finally came to Roshar.

[Stormfather]

I personally tend to think Bavadin was one of the three Gods, but fled to another planet when Odium finally came to Roshar.

So you think Bavadin is only on Taldain to hide from Odium? Never thought of that.... I guess it could be since Odium doesn't seem to be willing to rule jointly with two others.

[Voidus]

So you think Bavadin is only on Taldain to hide from Odium? Never thought of that.... I guess it could be since Odium doesn't seem to be willing to rule jointly with two others.

Could he be the holder of the Shard which 'just wants to hide and survive'?

[Satsuoni]

Bavadin was stated to be White Sand shard, IIRC... Totally different planet.

Also, in the same letter it was stated that Rayse was evil to begin with, and having Odium shard didn't change him to the better... While Ati was "the best of them" (paraphrasing). Also, I am not sure you read the Intent correctly. IMO (and strictly IMO) intent has more to do with the increase of the quality in the world (see my thermodynamics theory). That is, Ruin wants to increase Ruin (entropy?) of the world, Preservation on the other hand -to stop the increase, to increase the amount of stable states. Honor makes the world where being honorable gives you more power (in theory), etc... Odium, for example, does not hate himself, just everyone else. In my opinion, he wants to increase the amount of hate in the worlds. Inducing strife, bigotry, wars, until everyone hates everyone else, possibly themselves included.

[Dros]

... Odium, for example, does not hate himself, just everyone else. In my opinion, he wants to increase the amount of hate in the worlds. Inducing strife, bigotry, wars, until everyone hates everyone else, possibly themselves included.

Here's the thing, though, Desolations are too effective at killing. 90% of the world's population is wiped out; 90%! Will the 10% remaining have some hate for the aggressors? Sure, but it is much more effective to induce hate by killing small amounts of influential people or causing emotional harm to the vast majority of the living. Odium is a Shard so I think he could think of something and I would think causing anguish to as many people as possible would be much more effective at inducing hate than killing as many people as possible. In terms of the Desolations as a tactic to induce as much hate as possible, it's a terribly ineffective tactic. Now, it's possible the whole thing got out of hand, but I doubt something called a Desolation was ever meant to be anything smaller than, well, desolation.

Interesting view on Bavadin though, Elwynn. To add a little to that...just because Hoid holds a grudge against both Shards doesn't mean they're working together. IIRC, Hoid knew all the Shardholders before they picked up their respective Shards, so the grudge may be aimed at what the individuals Rayse and Bavadin did before they picked up the Shards.

EDIT: It could be that Dragonsteel will explain a bit of this.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Droz

[Voidus]

And don't forget the last of Dalinar's vision, Odium wants there to be no people at all, which is hardly conducive to increasing the amount of hate in the world.

[Satsuoni]

Hm, you are right about desolations working like that. One could argue that these were primarily clashes between him and Honor, but it seems not (his goal is stated to be the everstorm, final desolation and complete destruction of the world(s), as shown by Tanavast, so...)

OK, I don't know about this one. Maybe that is influence of Rayse himself, choosing his hate of everything over hate of everything onto itself. Maybe we misunderstand something about his interaction with the worlds. I really cannot say

Right now, it is said that Odium reigns, the wars are many, nations distrust each other, and so on. Maybe Desolation loss of life is a side effect of too much hate?

[Voidus]

Although he didn't kill everyone on Sel when he visited (Which should have been easy once he killed Aona and Skai), so maybe there is something to it, perhaps the Desolations are more about harming other Shards somehow, we know that the Oathpacts bound him in some manner so perhaps he couldn't destroy all of the Rosharian Shards without the desolations.

[Dros]

Right now, it is said that Odium reigns, the wars are many, nations distrust each other, and so on. Maybe Desolation loss of life is a side effect of too much hate?

I've said before I thought the Broken One might be Honor. However, the current state of things aside from Dalinar and Kalladin is pretty much in favor of Odium's Intent. It seems he really does rule. Slavery; mistrust; wars all over the place; crime is rampant; political hardball results in strife chaos and instability; assasinations; lots of people pretty much struggling to survive in a virtual wasteland of rock and not too friendly wild life; and religions that teach nothing about compassion. Why would he want to change that?

That's a freakin' petri dish for hate if you ask me.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Droz

[Dros]

Although he didn't kill everyone on Sel when he visited (Which should have been easy once he killed Aona and Skai), so maybe there is something to it, perhaps the Desolations are more about harming other Shards somehow, we know that the Oathpacts bound him in some manner so perhaps he couldn't destroy all of the Rosharian Shards without the desolations.

Most of the Shards Intents and actions have been focused on their respective interactions and influences on humankind, though. However, it could be that that's how Odium is so dangerous. Maybe humankind means nothing to him...or their hate was not enough to satisfy his Intent, he wants the Shards to hate, as well. OTOH, how does a Shard without the sentient capacity to feel emotion, able to hate? We run into the same problem as the Desolations. I'm vexed by my own conundrum.

[Voidus]

Most of the Shards Intents and actions have been focused on their respective interactions and influences on humankind, though. However, it could be that that's how Odium is so dangerous. Maybe humankind means nothing to him...or their hate was not enough to satisfy his Intent, he wants the Shards to hate, as well. OTOH, how does a Shard without the sentient capacity to feel emotion, able to hate? We run into the same problem as the Desolations. I'm vexed by my own conundrum.

Well he wants to destroy all the other Shards so I don't think he wants them to hate I just meant that maybe he's ignoring a short-term goal of increasing hatred on one world in order to pursue his longer term goal of becoming the only Shard, at which point he could influence the universe as he wished.

[Dros]

But wouldn't that go far beyond his Intent as well? That sounds more like something Dominion/Domination (?) would want. And let's say he's successful...he's whacked all the Shards and wiped humankind and anybody else from existence. Now he's really screwed, no one for him to hate and no one to hate him.

I guess he could hate the nothingness that has become the end result of his actions and endless self loathing might get him somewhere. Perhaps we're witnessing the first signs of an eventual Shardsuicide? Perhaps the Desolations are just his way of trying to communicate the fact that no one understands poor lil' Odium.

[Stormfather]

Or the Devastations are a two fold thing, to take out the Champions of Honor and to take out Cultivation. Think about it, if you were a farmer and you worked really hard on a crop, nothing would frustrate you more than someone taking out the crop. The Devestations ruin what Cultivation is working on. So it might be a way to break both, especially when one devestation takes out 90% of the population.

[Voidus]

But wouldn't that go far beyond his Intent as well? That sounds more like something Dominion/Domination (?) would want. And let's say he's successful...he's whacked all the Shards and wiped humankind and anybody else from existence. Now he's really screwed, no one for him to hate and no one to hate him.

I guess he could hate the nothingness that has become the end result of his actions and endless self loathing might get him somewhere. Perhaps we're witnessing the first signs of an eventual Shardsuicide? Perhaps the Desolations are just his way of trying to communicate the fact that no one understands poor lil' Odium.

Brandon has already stated that Odium's goal is to become the only Shard, I see that as a personal goal of his and an effect of how his own personality is filtering the Shards Intent. This isn't against his Intent, just taking a much longer view of it. And I only meant he wanted to destroy the Shards, not people, although if he did, he like other Shards could presumably just make more.

[Dros]

Brandon has already stated that Odium's goal is to become the only Shard, I see that as a personal goal of his and an effect of how his own personality is filtering the Shards Intent. This isn't against his Intent, just taking a much longer view of it. And I only meant he wanted to destroy the Shards, not people, although if he did, he like other Shards could presumably just make more.

He did!? I didn't know that. I thought his quote on that subject was that Odium didn't pick up Shards because he knew it would change his Intent and he didn't want that. I don't recall Brandon mentioning why Odium was killing other Shardholders, though.

Hmmmm...I thought the longer one held a Shard, the more the will of the Shardholder comes on line with the Shard's Intent. Like Hoid said (paraphrased): "Ati was a good and decent man and you saw what happened to him."