Odium vs Ruin

[Carnie]

Looking at it from a philisophical and end-over-means viewpoint, I would say it is pretty clear that what Odium does is worse than Ruin (multiple worlds and shattering Shards aside). Lets say Ruin was able to destroy Scadrial. He would have buried them in ash and mist and killed them with Koloss and Inquisitors. It would have been terrible and bloody, but it would unite the people of that planet (as we saw his attempt to) in their quest for survival and they would have had a sense of unity, community, and possibly fullfillment/satisfaction in the end that they had done their best and stood together.

No, see, that's just it. That's what Ruin was doing when not at full power. If he had found the atium, he would have blown up the planet. Or something to that effect. Compared to that, your second paragraph is the better alternative. This was my whole point in the first place.

I still believe the statement about Odium being the worst was more of a point of view of the writer. Afterall, the writer is trying to convince someone to join in the battle. One common way to get assistance from others is to make your enemy appear to be worse than they actually are.

Well again, the voice in Kaladin's dream also says it, who or whatever that was. So it's not just Hoid's opinion.

Actually, there's a pretty good example of something Odium has done that Ruin hasn't: Odium has killed Shardholders. Something about the nature of the Shard Odium allows Rayse to kill Shardholders. This seems to be something that Ruin could not do, or he probably would have to Preservation, or failing that certainly to Vin.

It seems clear that the difference between Ruin and Odium is the one between being killed and being killed horribly followed by eternal suffering in afterlife. So far the only afterlifely things we've seen in cosmere is Sazed's word that it exists and the hell Heralds go to between Desolations. Ruin seemed to have absolutely no interest in afterlife aka Spiritual Realm, while Odium is definitely involved somehow with Herald hell.

These are both good points.

I've seen a theory around here that groups Shards into Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual much like Allomantic metals. I liked that, it looked logical. If that's true and Ruin is a physical shard, he is concerned only with destroying Physical Realm; while Odium isn't so his reach extends to (or maybe even exists solely in) Spiritual Realm. Whether this theory is true or not, Ruin is done when you're dead but Odium is only getting started.

Offhand, I don't buy that, for two reasons. First, sixteen is not divisible by three. Second, Sazed says in The Hero of Ages that Ruin and Preservation both had Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual components to them. That's not a perfect rebuttal, but it's my take offhand.

[Chicken]

First, sixteen is not divisible by three.

Maths? Pff.

In other news, I obviously meant 4 groups like the metals and not at all 3 like the realms. Clearly there wasn't a mix up due to not looking up the aforementioned theory...

[lDanielHolm he/him]

You don't need to explain to me what a powerful destructive force hatred is. Here's the thing though. Ruin, if he'd recovered the missing part of his power, would have been able to obliterate the planet in the blink of an eye. Whereas Odium's plan on Roshar seems to be to have everybody kill eachother in war. Relatively speaking, the former is worse. Granted, we actually know very little of Odium's plans, but I don't see what he could do that would make the stakes higher than the were in The Hero of Ages.

The various Shards are equal in power--anything Ruin could do at "full power", Odium could do, too.

Ruin doesn't hate things -- he simply wants to have his place in the cycle of birth and death. In order for new things to emerge, old things must vanish. That is why Preservation and Ruin together make up Harmony.

You can make a bargain with Ruin, as Preservation did. But with Odium? No, I don't think so.

[Windrunner he/him]

Well they somehow managed to, because it's pretty heavily implied that the Oathpact was between Honor (Cultivation maybe?) and Odium, and that certainly seems to be an agreement.

[Observer]

It's quite likely that Odium, like all shards, is bound by rules. I like the "Honor is forcing his intent on Odium" theory, but there could very well be other things at play here too.

[Vortaan he/him]

The various Shards are equal in power--anything Ruin could do at "full power", Odium could do, too.

Ruin doesn't hate things -- he simply wants to have his place in the cycle of birth and death. In order for new things to emerge, old things must vanish. That is why Preservation and Ruin together make up Harmony.

You can make a bargain with Ruin, as Preservation did. But with Odium? No, I don't think so.

Not quite true. Odium could not do things against his Intent, neither can Ruin. It seems like there is probably some overlap where Odium would be able to do things that Ruin can't, and vice versa. For example, I think Odium could try to found an empire to last forever, based on hatred, whereas the whole concept of that is the opposite of something Ruin could attempt.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

Well they somehow managed to, because it's pretty heavily implied that the Oathpact was between Honor (Cultivation maybe?) and Odium, and that certainly seems to be an agreement.

Right, I wasn't thinking of the Oathpact at all. What I really meant was, you could reason with Ruin -- at least to a point. I don't think you can reason with Odium. It seems more likely that the Oathpact uses the nature of Odium's Intent to bind him in some way.

Not quite true. Odium could not do things against his Intent, neither can Ruin. It seems like there is probably some overlap where Odium would be able to do things that Ruin can't, and vice versa. For example, I think Odium could try to found an empire to last forever, based on hatred, whereas the whole concept of that is the opposite of something Ruin could attempt.

Yes, but their level of power is still roughly the same. If Ruin could obliterate Scadrial in the blink of an eye at full power, Odium should be able to pull off equally powerful stunts--even if they weren't the same kind, due to their difference in Intent. Given that Odium was able to destroy Aona and Skai, it is unlikely that he is Invested in much (the way Preservation was Invested in humans on Scadrial), so he is probably at full power, or at least closer to it than the average Shard.

My point was, the Shards' individual powers is not what makes Odium the most terrible of them. His Intent--i.e. his personality--is.

[Observer]

My point was, the Shards' individual powers is not what makes Odium the most terrible of them. His Intent--i.e. his personality--is.

Give the man a prize.

Another thing to remember is this: Ruin couldn't move. It's likely the Hoid didn't find Ruin as dangerous for the simle reason that Ruin wasn't going anywhere. He and Preservation were both reduced to nothing, and their intents prevented them from leaving so long as the other existed. By simple nature of his intent, Ruin was stuck, and inhibitation not shared by Odium.

[name_here]

I think Shards can all do the same things, but Shardholders get changed by the Intent so they won't do all the same things. Granted, for long-term Shardholders of single Shards the distinction between can't and won't is academic, but Vin was able to intentionally kill directly with Preservation.

Also, Ruin is about destruction, while Odium is about making people suffer. Preservation and Ruin were both fundamental forces, entropy and counter-entropy. Life and civilization require destroying things, breaking molecular bonds or tearing holes into the earth to extract metals. Preservation and Ruin needed to work together to make humanity, not merely because they could counter each other but because making them without the help of the other was impossible because the Shardholders conformed to the Intent of their Shards and were mentally incapable of doing it by themselves. Ruin tried to kill everyone, but they could not have existed without him. Odium is simply malicious. There are worse things than death, such as being tortured for eternity, and Odium is happy to inflict them.

He's probably also more powerful because he didn't contribute to life in the same way as other Shards. They locked up their power in their creations, while Odium creates only for war. Ruin had put less power into humanity than Preservation, which is why the Atium gambit was necessary in the first place.

[Morsk he/him]

My point was, the Shards' individual powers is not what makes Odium the most terrible of them. His Intent--i.e. his personality--is.

I agree, and I think the key thing with Odium's Intent is that it's very hard for other Shards' Intents to counter. Hatred is much easier to spread than undo, and it can corrupt almost anything, giving Odium freedom to attack who he wants, how he wants. The Shard under attack has to stick to its Intent in fighting back, but Odium's Intent isn't limiting him at all.

[Observer]

I agree, and I think the key thing with Odium's Intent is that it's very hard for other Shards' Intents to counter. Hatred is much easier to spread than undo, and it can corrupt almost anything, giving Odium freedom to attack who he wants, how he wants. The Shard under attack has to stick to its Intent in fighting back, but Odium's Intent isn't limiting him at all.

Another great point. Once pulled over by Oddium, things and people are very hard to reclaim. I can see this being dangerous to a shard, turning all of its hard-spent investure against it...

[StormAtlas]

Ruin was proscribed by the pact with Preservation. He saw it as a game. He didn't need to kill Preservation as he was guaranteed the right to destroy as part of the pact.

Except for the shatterings, it appears Odium works primarily through humans, getting them to kill one another and reveling in the bloodshed and hatred that arises. Ruin did work through people, and there was bloodshed, but he was also able to control outside events more directly than we have seen Odium do so far.

I was thinking along the same line. Its a game to Ruin, like one huge game of chess against Preservation. I kind of see him as a more active grim reaper. All things are born, all things must come to an end.

And I kind of think that Ruin would have only destroyed his own world. It was part the deal that he made and throughout the books you can see that the deal is a huge focal point of his. Once he destroyed his own world he might not move on to other worlds because they were in no way part of the contract/pact that he and preservation made.

So in that sense I think that is one reason why Odium is worse