Surgebinding Off-World

[Moogle]

In the other thread, we discussed the idea of Surgebinding not working off-world.

 

Essentially, the problem is this: Seons grant powers when you go to Roshar with one bonded to you. WoB:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?
A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.
(source)

 

So... if you only get powers with a Seon while on Roshar, that implies spren bonds will only give you powers while on Roshar as well. So what's a world-hopping Surgebinder supposed to do?

 

Various things:

• Shardblades should still function, and you should be able to bring your spren with you to other worlds.
• You might or might not be able to take in Stormlight, if you brought gems with you. That ability seems more keyed to the fact that you have a bit of Honor/Cultivation welded to your soul, and that keys you to Stormlight. (This is speculation if it's not clear.)
• Surgebinding itself is unlikely to work in my mind. Various WoBs make it clear that getting magic systems to work off-world can involve a lot of work. Allomancy is easy, but AonDor is hard. It's more than just hooking up to a power source, too, most likely - the Dor is everywhere on Sel, but you can only use it in a small area, which suggests you'd need to somehow form a bridge or something to your area to use the AonDor in addition to providing the power yourself. Spren themselves might grant the Surges, though, so it may just require a new power source. I'm not sure what exactly is happening with spren bonds' power. Maybe Roshar's contribution is not the Surges, but things like the ability to create squires.
• Feruchemy's ability to store your connection to planets is likely to be very useful. You may be able to store your connection to Roshar while on it, and tap this while off-world to gain Surgebinding. (Assuming you lose Surgebinding, which is again speculation.)

Thoughts on this interesting problem are welcome! If someone could ask Brandon about this, it would be awesome.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

To spitball more possibilities:

 

Perhaps Surgebinding specifically requires gaseous investiture? We've assumed, but have no proof, that Breath can be used for Surgebinding. That being said, I'm not sure how one could utilize metals to do so. On Sel, where there is the most similar situation to person-spren bonds, we never got investiture in the gaseous phase (or the solid phase for that matter). The Dor was this mysterious power held in some other plane/dimension/location and we never really got to see it. I feel like the natural state of the Dor is gaseous (the description given is almost identical to Stormlight, no?), but the Selish cannot just breath it in like Rosharans or Vin.

 

I think it is more likely to do with the individual's bond to Roshar, though, as I mentioned in the other thread. People on Roshar automatically have a basic bond to the planet: gravity. There might be other bonds we don't know about due to the Cognitive Realm as well (and perhaps this is entirely cognitively based). Off Roshar, though, individuals who do not view themselves as inherently Rosharan no longer have a connection. Those who do, though, continue to maintain the bond. I think this fits with the whole bonds being the focus too. I am interested to know if Vasher can do anything with Stormlight other than sustain himself. WoR makes it evident he does not view himself as Rosharan at all.

 

Another possibility is that the powers are tied to the Cognitive Realm. The more in-touch a land is to it's Cognitive counterpart, the more potent Surgebinding can be done. I view this extremely unlikely, but Sel's dangerous Cognitive Realm could explain why the bond between a Selish and their Seon does not exhibit power.

 

That's all I got off the top of my head right now.

[Shaggai]

I'm pretty sure that Surgebinding would be significantly more difficult to use than Allomancy, but not as difficult as AonDor. AonDor and the passive effects of being an Elantrian specifically require the Dor, and even within Sel they're regionally dependent. Allomancy requires the ability to transform metal and a source of Investiture to replace the metal, which would be easier to use offworld. Surgebinding, I think, is in between. The Surges themselves seem very Roshar-specific, because they require Investiture which overwrites the ordinary fundamental forces, but they're not regionally dependent on Roshar. One could probably get the passive effects of Stormlight using other Investiture, especially Breath.

I think a Radiant's basic offworld capabilities would probably include the ability to make squires, because it's a sharing of the bond. As you mentioned, Shardblades would probably still work, you could probably take in Stormlight, and obviously the passive effects of Stormlight would be available. You might even be able to convert other Investiture to Stormlight, as a function of the spren bond.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Its also worth note that these systems work the way they do because of the interaction between a shard and the planet its on. This would mean that its possible if you don't some how "Ground" out your investiture to the world its originally from then the planet you're currently on may interpret it. With results that you were not were not ready for and did not expect.

 

I expect universal applications would more or less work the same way. Things like health, longevity, sensory increase, ext. But other effect may be a little more..... Wildmagic like?

[yafeshan he/him]

I would think using planet specific powers in other world should be very hard But we have something that defies rules.

Lift

She can fuel herself by food. She can convert food to stormlight. Also we know from a WOB that allomancy comes from investitures from cracks on someones soul.

These things tell me that powers are not external but coming from internal connection to shard. A mistborn can burn metal in Roshar, even soulcasted metal because metals are not source, the soul is. So Lift can go Sel and if she can somehow keep spren bon, she can surgebind there. The nahel bond may be similar to cracks in soul but difference is those investiture can talk with you. If Lift goes to Sel, her spren would follow her naturall, because he became a part of herself.

[Bort he/him]

I would think using planet specific powers in other world should be very hard But we have something that defies rules.

Lift

She can fuel herself by food. She can convert food to stormlight. Also we know from a WOB that allomancy comes from investitures from cracks on someones soul.

These things tell me that powers are not external but coming from internal connection to shard. A mistborn can burn metal in Roshar, even soulcasted metal because metals are not source, the soul is. So Lift can go Sel and if she can somehow keep spren bon, she can surgebind there. The nahel bond may be similar to cracks in soul but difference is those investiture can talk with you. If Lift goes to Sel, her spren would follow her naturall, because he became a part of herself.

 

In WoR, when Kaladin is going downhill again and Syl is losing herself, he tells her that he is broken. She replies with, "They all were, silly."

 

This seems to be a common thing throughout the Cosmere. Allomancy is gained when the cracks is someone's soul are filled, so it is with surgebinding too. I think that, if you could find a way of substituting other elements for Stormlight, then surgebinding would be possible.

[Unhinged he/him]

Perhaps Surgebinding specifically requires gaseous investiture? We've assumed, but have no proof, that Breath can be used for Surgebinding. 

 

Well we know it works in reverse (at least for returned) I think that's something.

[Shaggai]

In WoR, when Kaladin is going downhill again and Syl is losing herself, he tells her that he is broken. She replies with, "They all were, silly."

 

This seems to be a common thing throughout the Cosmere. Allomancy is gained when the cracks is someone's soul are filled, so it is with surgebinding too. I think that, if you could find a way of substituting other elements for Stormlight, then surgebinding would be possible.

The real question is if Surgebinding would work on a world where the Shards weren't instituting the Surges. I doubt it, personally.

[Bort he/him]

The Shards don't make the surges work, the Spren do. You'd need to take your Spren with you, of course, but then all you'd need is fuel.

[Moogle]

The Shards don't make the surges work, the Spren do. You'd need to take your Spren with you, of course, but then all you'd need is fuel.

 

We don't know that for sure. As I quoted in the original post:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

 

This implies that it is something about Roshar itself granting powers, not the spren. If it was central to the spren, a Seon bond should not suddenly grant powers when the bondee and Seon are brought to Roshar.

 

This wouldn't be unique in the cosmere. Sel certainly acts like this.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

The Shards don't make the surges work, the Spren do. You'd need to take your Spren with you, of course, but then all you'd need is fuel.

The Surges are the fundamental forces on Roshar. This alteration of physics requires specific Investiture. Given the scale of the alteration, the most likely source is a Shard or Shards.

[ostrichofevil he/him]

Note: this is speculation

 

You might be able to use Hemalurgy as a bridge to use Aondor on a different Shardworld from Sel.  Maybe you could spike the point at the center of Elantris's Aon Rao, and impale a different Aon Rao.  Also, you might be able to spike an Elantrian and use that to power your AonDor.

[Moogle]

Got a WoB on this!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cs551kh?context=3

 

Surgebinding will work off-world, which makes a lot of my speculation here wrong.

 

I still think it quite likely that something is lost by leaving Roshar, though. It wouldn't make sense for a Seon bond to give you something if you go to Roshar otherwise.

[Guest]

Perhaps traveling to Roshar is a matter of Attunement? By being on Roshar and having a Bond, the Bond creates a Secondary Bond with (something) on Roshar, and that Bond then persists off-world?

This would mean that all Space Age Knight Radiants would have to perform a pilgrimage to Roshar to fully realize their potential.

[Moogle]

I like that idea, but it doesn't quite fit in with any of my mental models for how it's supposed to work. I'll have to think more on it, and I'll add it as a question to my list.

 

Here's the two questions I added:

• Being on Roshar seems to grant you power if you have any special bonds (like a Seon bond). Since Radiants can Surgebind off-world, what benefits in particular does Roshar give a Radiant?

• A person who goes to Roshar with a Seon bond receives some sort of benefit from it (since it’s treated like a Nahel bond). Would this benefit persist if the person left Roshar?

[Shaggai]

Got a WoB on this!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cs551kh?context=3

 

Surgebinding will work off-world, which makes a lot of my speculation here wrong.

 

I still think it quite likely that something is lost by leaving Roshar, though. It wouldn't make sense for a Seon bond to give you something if you go to Roshar otherwise.

What. Just what. There are several fundamental forces that are required in order to Surgebind, and none of them are fundamental forces without the intervention of Investiture. I guess the Cosmere is weirder than I thought.

[Moogle]

I'm not sure I'd call the Surges fundamental forces. Maybe the people of Roshar believe they are, but this doesn't seem like a universal thing.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Hand Wavium.

[Shaggai]

I'm not sure I'd call the Surges fundamental forces. Maybe the people of Roshar believe they are, but this doesn't seem like a universal thing.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27surgebindings%27

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27surgebinding%27

 

For the second one, ctrl+f "fundamental" without the quotes. I'm not sure how to link to specific quotes.

[Moogle]

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='surgebindings'

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='surgebinding'

 

For the second one, ctrl+f "fundamental" without the quotes. I'm not sure how to link to specific quotes.

 

I assume these were the ones you meant:

Question

The bindings-Strong/weak axial, what exactly are those, what can they do?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you will see it happening.  But remember that the original inspiration for the magics in the Stormight Archive were the fundamental forces as listed in physics.

[discussion on what characters have which surges]

(source)

 

hoser

(Speaking of the division surge) Is that a re-framing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially.  Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.

hoser

Tensile strength?

Brandon Sanderson

(hedging) It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...". (looking back at the chart) So what can I give you that I didn't give her? Um, one of the orders is called Bondsmiths.

(source)

 

Nadine

Will The Way of Kings series be based on one of the worlds and magic systems you have already created or are you inventing a totally new one for this series?

Brandon Sanderson

It will be new.  There are going to be a lot of different types of magic in the world (I see there's a question below asking about that, so I'll answer more there.)  But there will be two main magic systems for the first book.  The first will deal with the manipulation of fundamental forces. (Gravity, Strong/weak atomic forces, Electromagnetic force, that sort of thing.)  The second will be a transformation based magic system, whereby people can transform objects into one of the world's ten elements.

(source)

 

In that case, I'm still not sure I agree with you that the Surges are fundamental forces in the Cosmere. Brandon has stated that the physics of the Cosmere are the same as ours except where Investiture modifies things. I can get behind the Surges changing things as if they were fundamental forces (Gravity is Spiritual), but I'd imagine these forces don't actually exist except insofar as they provide a convenient way to box the Surges?

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm confused at matters, and getting a WoB on things would be nice.

[Shaggai]

 

I assume these were the ones you meant:

 

 

 

In that case, I'm still not sure I agree with you that the Surges are fundamental forces in the Cosmere. Brandon has stated that the physics of the Cosmere are the same as ours except where Investiture modifies things. I can get behind the Surges changing things as if they were fundamental forces (Gravity is Spiritual), but I'd imagine these forces don't actually exist except insofar as they provide a convenient way to box the Surges?

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm confused at matters, and getting a WoB on things would be nice.

My previous interpretation was that they're the fundamental forces on Roshar, because there's a Shard there messing with things. Except if you can Surgebind outside of Roshar, that doesn't make sense.