Spiritual Realmatic Theory

[RawToast225]

I have an idea. I was reading The Way of Kings, the part where Kaladin has the vision in the chapter Child of Tanavast, when I had a thought. How do visions work in the Cosmere? Is it done in the, Physical, Cognative, or Spiritual realm? Let's take them one by one.

First, the Physical realm. The Physical realm is bound by the laws of physics unless assisted by the Spiritual realm (a spren). That is why the term "extranatural" coined by Syl is so funny to me, but that's a side tangent. It's not possible to have a vision in the Physical realm.

Next, the Cognative realm. As far as we know, it exists in parallel with the Physical realm. If the body that a cognition* is tied to moves, so does the cognition. If the physical body doesn't move in a vision, neither does the cognition.

Lastly, the Spiritual realm. We know next to nothing of this realm. All we really know is that the spirit lives on after the body dies. After that, it's all a mystery. Suppose the Spiritual realm doesn't always exist in parallel with the other two realms. What if the spirit is capable of moving on its own, away from the body and the cognition? If that is true, what if it can only move away from a body and cognition if the two are resting and if aided by investiture? What grants investiture? Spren. A powerful spren, say... the Stormfather, could potentially pull a man's spirit put of its parallel existence with its body and cognition and towed it along the edge of a storm while the body was sleeping.

Now. That being said, how does that work with Dalinar's visions? Are spirits bound to entropy, which is a law of physical time? Can they in fact move through time if aided by investiture and the Stormfather? It would mean that Dalinar's spirit is being thrown through time, then brought back into the present (as the body perceives the present) all in the course of a highstorm. Amazing.

Also, is this the way world hopping works? Jumping through the worlds on a Spiritual level and waiting for your body and cognition to catch up? That would be interesting (an understatement, I know). It would also require a special type of investiture. A shardpoool, perhaps? A place where the power of shards coalesces into a concentrated pool? That would make it easier for the spirit to leave the parallel existence it theoretically occupies.

This is, as far as I know, a new concept and needs more proof until I can hammer it out. But consider the possibility of everything existing in parallel until investiture gets involved and makes it possible for a spirit to move about freely.

*Cognition is the term I want to use from here on out to mean the Cognative state of something.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Arthur Dent

[Cheese United]

Nice theory. I see you've really put some thought into it.

I agree with you on most parts, but I do think it has some ties to the Cognitive as well. Remember that Dalinar would be found thrashing about and speaking in ancient languages when he was in the visions. The thrashing at first looks just Physical, but it could be that some of your Cognitive aspect is their too, and it's bleedig through to the Physical Realm. Maybe it's split in some way between Dalinar and vision!Dalinar? I don't pretend to completely undesrtand the Realmatics though, so I'll leave you to prove me false in some waay or other

[Moogle]

I have a few things to note.
 
First of all, the laws of the world are the same as ours except where they are changed by Spiritual influence, not Cognitive:

Kurkistan
Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually based?

Brandon Sanderson
They... The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say "yes."
(source)

 
Second, about the Realms moving in parallel: basically everything has a presence in all Three Realms. And, as far as we know, they aren't really separate like you're saying. They're three different ways to view the same underlying reality. Jasnah explains:
“It’s not truly a location,” Jasnah said. “Not as we usually think of them. Shadesmar is here, all around us, right now. All things exist there in some form, as all things exist here.”
Shallan frowned. “I don’t—”
Jasnah held up a finger to quiet her. “All things have three components: the soul, the body, and the mind. That place you saw, Shadesmar, is what we call the Cognitive Realm— the place of the mind. “All around us you see the physical world. You can touch it, see it, hear it. This is how your physical body experiences the world. Well, Shadesmar is the way that your cognitive self— your unconscious self— experiences the world.
 

(Sorry if I'm misinterpreting - Realmatic discussions get awkward fast because no one reallllly knows exactly what we're talking about, and it's lot of guesswork and speculation and then interpreting other's guesswork and speculation through our own flawed understanding.)

 

Now, I'm not sure if this relates specifically to your theory, but the idea of Dalinar's soul or whatever moving away from his body doesn't really work in this framework. If he's thrashing and speaking as he is in his visions, then he's clearly still in his Physical body. He wouldn't have moved somewhere. He is his body, in some ways. I'm sure there's ways for you to separate from your Physical self (Cognitive Shadows come to mind), but Dalinar seems to not have.
 
You say,

Lastly, the Spiritual realm. We know next to nothing of this realm. All we really know is that the spirit lives on after the body dies.

 
I may be misinterpreting you (sorry if I am), but I think you're implying here that you think it's where you go after you die? It's not. The actual afterlife is beyond the Realms, though those who refuse to 'go towards the light', so to speak, do get to hang around the Cognitive/Spiritual:

darxbane (17 October 2008)
Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)
Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now.
(source)

 

Khyrindor
Shards can talk to dead people. Are the Tranquiline Halls where everyone in the cosmere goes when they die? Or does each world have its own heaven.

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)
There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different.
(source)

 
And finally, what we do know about the Spiritual:

Nepene ()
You've mentioned several philosophical concepts used in the writing of your books, like Jung's collective unconsciousness, Plato's cave. Could you expand a bit on your use of those in your books, and whether you think it is necessary to use philosophy to make a good fantasy world?

Brandon Sanderson
I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations—whatever they are—can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

 
Shai describes it as a place of connections and ideals. The Cognitive has to do with interpreting these true ideals. Where have we seen something where there is no interpretation to be done, you just know things? Well...
He hit hard. His vision flashed with sparkling lights that melded together and were followed by blackness. Not unconsciousness, blackness. Kaladin blinked. All was still. The storm was quiet, and everything was purely dark. I’m dead, he thought immediately.
But why could he feel the wet stone roof beneath him? He shook his head, dripping rainwater down his face. There was no lightning, no wind, no rain. The silence was unnatural. He stumbled to his feet, managing to stand on the gently sloped roof. The stone was slick beneath his toes. He couldn’t feel his wounds. The pain just wasn’t there. He opened his mouth to call out into the darkness, but hesitated. That silence was not to be broken. The air itself seemed to weigh less, as did he.
He almost felt as if he could float away. In that darkness, an enormous face appeared just in front of his. A face of blackness, yet faintly traced in the dark. It was wide, the breadth of a massive thunderhead, and extended far to either side, yet it was somehow still visible to Kaladin. Inhuman. Smiling.
 
Despite it being dark, Kaladin can see. And for Dalinar, well...
Dalinar stood in darkness. He turned about, trying to remember how he’d come to this place . In the shadows, he saw furniture. Tables, a rug, drapes from Azir with wild colors. His mother had always been proud of those drapes.
My home, he thought. As it was when I was a child. Back before conquest, back before Gavilar . . . Gavilar . . . hadn’t Gavilar died? No, Dalinar could hear his brother laughing in the next room. He was a child. They both were. Dalinar crossed the shadowed room, feeling the fuzzy joy of familiarity. Of things being as they should be. He’d left his wooden swords out. He had a collection, each carved like a Shardblade. He was too old for those now, of course, but he still liked having them. As a collection. He stepped to the balcony doors and pushed them open. Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth . A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well.

 

(Mooglenote: note bolded section and compare with the Spiritual being related to 'true ideals'. May be coincidental, and yet...)
 
There's something going on here, and it's not (entirely, at least) the Cognitive. We know what the Cognitive looks like, and it is not fully dark. (As we'd expect, perhaps. The Cognitive has to do with interpreting things, which lends itself very well to sight. Despite Dalinar/Kaladin claiming they 'see' things in the dark, there is no true seeing to be done in darkness.)
 
Regarding your mentions of the Spiritual perhaps not obeying the laws of time, I don't know. Shadesmar (note: speculation) seems to have time dilation effects, as Jasnah and Hoid's "not living all his years" imply. If what Dalinar saw was indeed a vision from the Spiritual, then it doesn't seem bound by time... but then, it was just a vision, and nothing signifies that was an actual memory.
 
Finally, we know that Dalinar is not actually traveling through time. It's a simulation:

Q: In Dalinar's visions, he interacted with people in ways that seemed strange and unexpected to those he was interacting with, and they responded appropriately.  Did his actions actually influence the past, or not? For example, did he help influence Nohadon to write The Way of Kings?
 
A: No, they were just projections sent into his mind.
(source)

Edited January 27, 2015 by Moogle

[RawToast225]

I'm not quite sure why the first one is noted, but I would love if you explained it!

For the second one, I wasn't implying it was the afterlife, just that the essence of the person continues after the physical body dies.

The next subpoint makes sense. Suppose the spirit can move out of the body and still be connected to the cognition. That way, the mind can still interpret the things the spirit is seeing.

So, by this reasoning are the visions Cognative? That's somewhat disappointing. I still like some of the things I wrote here.

Edit: Thanks Cheese

Edited January 28, 2015 by Arthur Dent

[Moogle]

I'm not quite sure why the first one is noted, but I would love if you explained it!

 

You said in your post:

First, the Physical realm. The Physical realm is bound by the laws of physics unless assisted by the Cognative realm (a spren). That is why the term "extranatural" coined by Syl is so funny to me, but that's a side tangent. It's not possible to have a vision in the Physical realm.

 

It's Spiritual influence that matters, not Cognitive. That's all I was saying. Also: Splinters (like Syl) are both of the Cognitive and Spiritual. WoB:

NewbSombrero ()

Are Splinters primarily Spiritual?

Brandon Sanderson

Less physical. More a blend of the other two.

(source)

 

For the second one, I wasn't implying it was the afterlife, just that the essence of the person continues after the physical body dies.

 

Sorry for misinterpreting you. I was really hesitating on whether or not to make that post.

 

So, by this reasoning are the visions Cognative? That's somewhat disappointing. I still like some of the things I wrote here.

 

I don't know if you can really say they're "of" a Realm? Maybe they're a combination of all three. They do only happen during a highstorm, and during a highstorm, the Realms get a bit wonky (see: Kaladin's weird experience). I'm not sure.

 

I think you had some interesting ideas in your post, even if they don't apply to Dalinar. I'll be looking to see if they apply elsewhere when new things come out. It would make sense if the Allomantic metals like gold/malatium had the roots of their funky time mechanics based in the Spiritual.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Moogle

[RawToast225]

Oh, I see what that meant. Typo. Also, don't be afraid to be wrong. There's no shame in it. I feel no shame that I've been proven wrong on a few of these things. It's a good learning experience.

It makes sense that they would be a combination. That would explain how Kaladin experiences wetness as well as stillness because it's his congantive part filling in what should be physically while his spirit is pulling it's body into an ideal state. Damnation, that's all twisty.

Thank you for that compliment! I appreciate knowing that I have contributed to the 17th Shard.

I really want to figure out what realm(s) the metals pull and push in, but I guess we will just have to see.