Shardblade Wounds

[Moogle]

I still think Brandon was tacitly implying that a Herald and an Honorblade were involved.

How do you explain "Taln's" inhuman reflexes?

As the theory goes, Taln's a Herald, but an insane one who's not Taln. Jezrien, or perhaps Ishi. See later in this post for a link.

 

There's also that silly theory floating around about Taln being a kandra with a Blessing to give him the increased reflexes.

 

Either way, the direct assumption we had at the end of WoK was that "Taln" was indeed Taln... but then Brandon gave us these WoBs:

Question

The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar, the one you refuse to acknowledge as Talenel - is that person the same as the one delivered to the warcamps?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

(source)

 

Q: 12. Are all the heralds aware that Taln is back?

 

A: If that person actually IS Taln. I'm not saying he's not, but he may not be who you would think he is.

(source)

 

Q: Do you know the order of 6-10?

A: I know whose they are but I haven't decided the order. Lift is one, Taln is one. The person who calls himself Taln.

(I have no source for this one, can't find it, I stole it from here)

 

The go-to thread on this is here. Before seeing these WoBs, I thought "Taln" was Taln. After... I'm not sure if Brandon's trolling.

 

---

 

Pure speculation; each honorblade causes the eyes to change to a different color, possibly related to the gemstone matching each Herald's given essence (though, if I recall correctly, the heralds were matched to the essences at a later point than the essence chart was devised). Topaz, Talenel's gemstone, is a clear gem that, upon heat treatments, can turn into a variety of colors. As a result, Talenel's honorblade might not change the holder's eye color. This also matches the fact that Szeth's eyes turn sapphire when holding Jezrien's blade, and Jezrien's gemstone is sapphire. I'll make a new thread on this for more in depth discussion. And to comment on Moogle's note of Shalash's eyes being violet, not garnet, I do not recall her holding her blade during that scene. Perhaps I am wrong though.

 

Each gem has a canonical "color", as per WoB:

ArsenoPyrite ()

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gems? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements—in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron)? Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the Mistborn world, emerald and heliodor can be very similar—but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic—it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

(source)

 

Shallash had no Blade out at the time, yes, which suggests her eye color is a pre-existing condition for some reason or another... which is odd. Maybe she became a Stormlight savant or... I don't know. To have light eyes, she should have required a Shardblade, but she explicitly says she does not have one.

 

Maybe Jezrien had Shallash as his child after he became a Herald, and so passed on the genes for light-eyedness? Surgebinders post-date the Heralds, and Surgebinders were who originally passed on the genes for lighteyed-ness, as far as I know?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Eh, forget the whole me starting a new thread bit. You pretty much made the argument in the thread you linked to, there's no new reasons to bring it up again. I will continue to discuss here though.

 

Each gem has a canonical "color", as per WoB:

 

Shallash had no Blade out at the time, yes, which suggests her eye color is a pre-existing condition for some reason or another... which is odd. Maybe she became a Stormlight savant or... I don't know. To have light eyes, she should have required a Shardblade, but she explicitly says she does not have one.

 

Maybe Jezrien had Shallash as his child after he became a Herald, and so passed on the genes for light-eyedness? Surgebinders post-date the Heralds, and Surgebinders were who originally passed on the genes for lighteyed-ness, as far as I know?

 

Do we know the other half of Shalash's parentage? Shalash could be a lighteyes due to her mother, as aren't lighteyes the gene-dominant on Roshar? Though that argument would break the theory that Kaladin's mother is a lighteyes, so I guess that's out... Of course it could be that genes work the same on Roshar as in real life, so Jezrien could have had lighteye blood in him, and if his wife did too their child could have been born with them. This would also explain Kaladin's eyes if his mother really is lighteyes, as his father could be pure darkeyes, which would dominate the lighteyes gene. It is also possible that my suggestion is correct, and that topaz's color is simply clear, or rather it lacks a color, but this seems to contradict the tan eye color in Dalinar's visions...

Edited January 19, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Moogle]

Do we know the other half of Shalash's parentage? Shalash could be a lighteyes due to her mother, as aren't lighteyes the gene-dominant on Roshar? Though that argument would break the theory that Kaladin's mother is a lighteyes, so I guess that's out... Of course it could be that genes work the same on Roshar as in real life, so Jezrien could have had lighteye blood in him, and if his wife did too their child could have been born with them. This would also explain Kaladin's eyes if his mother really is lighteyes, as his father could be pure darkeyes, which would dominate the lighteyes gene. It is also possible that my suggestion is correct, and that topaz's color is simply clear, or rather it lacks a color, but this seems to contradict the tan eye color in Dalinar's visions...

 

It's been confirmed that Shallash is Jezrien's child, but we don't know the parentage, no.

 

As for the rest of your post, I completely forgot to actually bring my logic together into one coherent argument. Oops. Here is what I was going for:

• All people on Roshar appear to be darkeyes by default. In the rest of the cosmere, eye color seems to be earth-normal. However, violet seems to be a Rosharan color only.
• To have light eyes, you need to have an ancestor with light eyes or bond a Shardblade/spren yourself.
• Light eyes as a class of people came about as a result of Surgebinders having children (not confirmed, but Kaladin speculates this and it seems solid).
• Surgebinders came about as a result of spren trying to copy the Honorblades - which is to say that the Heralds had to exist before Surgebinders came about.
• Honorblades, as far as we know, do not brighten your eyes unless held. Some speculate the Heralds have bonds to their Honorblades still, though.
• Shallash has light eyes, but claims she does not have a Shardblade.

In summary, the issue is: Shallash had to have been born before Surgebinders came to be (unless the Heralds were not all chosen at once?), so her violet eyes cannot have come from a Surgebinding ancestor, so how could she have light violet eyes without a Shardblade? Her mother couldn't have been a lighteyes, because those needed Surgebinders to exist, and if her mother was a Radiant, well that could work I guess but the Surgebinders came after the Heralds, so...

 

Also, I note that Shallash is specifically described as having particularly pale eyes, in the same way Kaladin is. The descendents of Surgebinders have bright eyes, but they're not nearly white, like Shallash's:

Her eyes were so faintly violet they were almost white.

 

Windrunner in Dalinar's vision:

He inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white.

 

Stoneward:

The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm.

 

Kaladin:

“Haven’t you seen?” Teft said. “What am I saying? Ain’t no mirrors out on the Plains. Your eyes, son. Pale blue, like glassy water. Lighter than that of any king.”

 

For reference, Gavilar:

He glanced back at her, lingering. Pale green eyes, evidence of his good birth.

 

Jakamav:

“All right?” Jakamav asked, voice muffled by his helm. He slammed the faceplate up, revealing a grin. “I’m wonderful.” He laughed, pale green eyes alight with the Thrill of the fight. Adolin recognized that feeling well.

Note, the lighteyes have pale eyes, but Shallash and co. go above and beyond and are "almost white" or "seem to glow".

 

So, what are we to make of it?

 

A few possible things:

• Shallash may have inherited her eye color from Jezrien (because he's a Herald)? But then all the Heralds wouldn't have been chosen at once. Don't know how likely this is.
• Shallash may have bonded a spren (if her eyes are violet, this suggests a Willshaper spren, but she specifically notes she doesn't have a Shardblade...).
• You may be able to become a Stormlight savant, where if you Surgebind enough (as patron of the Lightweavers, it wouldn't be out of the question for Shallash to have been doing illusions 24/7) your soul is permanently altered to have light colored eyes. Though her eyes should be garnet, not violet...
• She is lying and has a Shardblade. (Doesn't fit with her eyes being super pale.)
• Heralds in general have light eyes by default. (Would make sense, as light eyes seems associated with having Rosharian Investiture.)
• The Heralds are not from Roshar, and wherever they are from did have violet eyes. (Doesn't fit with every other world we've seen. No violet eyes anywhere but Roshar.)

I'm sure I've missed a few possibilities. Either way, this fascinates me and I wish to know more. "Taln" really seems like the odd one out, here.

 

As to your 'topaz is colorless' comment, it could be. I really do think that the WoB I posted earlier is strong evidence against the idea, though. If we're going for a colorless gem, I'd nominate the Edgedancers's diamond.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I agree this is very interesting. Unfortunately, it seems to fall into the same basket as most honorblade discussions; we just don't have enough information to make any educated guesses.

 

I agree that the WoB you linked to pretty much squashes topaz being clear, and I suppose diamond is the more likely candidate (I've always viewed diamond as white, personally).

 

Are we certain that the lighteye traits did not exist on Roshar prior to surgebinders? It's possibly just my Earthly bias, but it feels odd to me that there would be no lighter eye colors in the Roshar gene pool prior to surgebinding. Moreover, depending on the state of the other Cosmere worlds, it feels too coincidental that worldhoppers coming to Roshar back then would all have dark eyes.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Re: default to darkeyes

 

There may be something else odd going on there (and it's slightly possible I'm grossly misremembering), but aren't all Iriali lighteyed?

[Moogle]

Are we certain that the lighteye traits did not exist on Roshar prior to surgebinders? It's possibly just my Earthly bias, but it feels odd to me that there would be no lighter eye colors in the Roshar gene pool prior to surgebinding. Moreover, depending on the state of the other Cosmere worlds, it feels too coincidental that worldhoppers coming to Roshar back then would all have dark eyes.

 

Not at all certain, unfortunately. I am going entirely off educated guesses for the vast majority of everything. Other cosmere worlds have had lighter color eyes - Hoid's are blue, for example. (I think. He may be Lightweaving.)

 

Violet does seem to be a Roshar-specific color, though.

 

Re: default to darkeyes

 

There may be something else odd going on there (and it's slightly possible I'm grossly misremembering), but aren't all Iriali lighteyed?

 

Irali all have golden hair, but I don't recall them all being lighteyes? I could also be horribly wrong.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Re: default to darkeyes

 

There may be something else odd going on there (and it's slightly possible I'm grossly misremembering), but aren't all Iriali lighteyed?

 

According to Coppermind, Iriali have mostly yellow eyes. Not sure if this is a bright, light yellow, or a dark, golden yellow.

 

 

Not at all certain, unfortunately. I am going entirely off educated guesses for the vast majority of everything. Other cosmere worlds have had lighter color eyes - Hoid's are blue, for example. (I think. He may be Lightweaving.)

 

Violet does seem to be a Roshar-specific color, though.

 

I concur that violet seems Roshar specific, as Brandon specifically points it out relatively often in SA. I had always assumed light and dark eyes always existed on Roshar, but religion slowly molded the population into valuing light eyes to the point in the books. Taking into account how editted the history books are, light eye ancestry could have been warped. If your info is coming from non-Jasnah, in-novel sources, then, I'm not sure how trusted they can be. I will default to trusting you though, as you are far more familiar with the novels than I am.

[Moogle]

I concur that violet seems Roshar specific, as Brandon specifically points it out relatively often in SA. I had always assumed light and dark eyes always existed on Roshar, but religion slowly molded the population into valuing light eyes to the point in the books. Taking into account how editted the history books are, light eye ancestry could have been warped. If your info is coming from non-Jasnah, in-novel sources, then, I'm not sure how trusted they can be. I will default to trusting you though, as you are far more familiar with the novels than I am.

 

Please don't trust me on anything, particularly anything as speculative as this. (And for reference, I've yet to even re-read WoR, so I doubt I'm that familiar with the books relative to most forum-goers. I just remember a few scenes very vividly and am good at searching for quotes.)

 

As far as light eyes go, we know the following:

• Lighteyes have light-eyed children (though it can get weird). In fact, I recall it being said to Kaladin that the children of a Shardbearer could be lighteyed. (I think. Someone please correct me on this point.)
• Eye color is related in some way to having your soul altered. Gain a spren bond, gain a different eye color. Gain Jezrien's Honorblade in your hand, and you get sapphire eyes.
• We know that other magical phenomenon in the cosmere can be inherited. Even Inquisitors can have Allomantic children by WoB (though it's not as likely as a natural Allomancer).
• Kaladin himself comes to the conclusion that lighteyes are as respected as they are due to a memory of the Radiants and says that their children would have light eyes. (I think???)
• The worship of lighteyes is a "recent" phenomenon, as Dalinar's vision shows darkeyes in charge. Lighteyes came into power after the Recreance, which is when people wielding dead spren would have started having children. Given each Shardbearer would have absurd power and would naturally end up in charge (or at least as an elite), lighteyes becoming the ruling class makes sense if Shard-changed eye color is hereditary.

I find the evidence overall to support the idea that lighteyes as a whole arose because of people having children with Shardbearers. It's not confirmed by any means, however, and it would be weird if darkeyes were the default... but that's how I lean.

 

Also of note, however, is that if darkeyes isn't the default, Dalinar's visions have a surprising lack of lighteyed peasants. Taffa was darkeyed, as I recall (though it may be Dalinar does not remark on it). Dalinar also doesn't remark on any lighteyed foot soldiers in the Feverstone Keep thing. If dark eyes are not the default, this is statistically unlikely. (Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong on these.)

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moogle

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

Could Honorblades have a different effect when held by Heralds then when held by non-Heralds?

 

The Heralds are not native to Roshar, so their Spirtweb could be very different and be affected in different ways. Assuming that the Honorblades were created by Honor to be wielded specifically by the Heralds.

 

Tangent: I'm partial to the theory that the Heralds from Braize, and that the Tranquiline Halls became Damnation when Odium showed up. They could also be native to Yolen, and traveled with Honor when he left Yolen and faffed off to Roshar with Cultivation. 

Which begs the question, does Cultivation have a Herald equivalent, or do they share the Heralds? I think I read somewhere that the Heralds are "of Honor" but this could be a situation much like the kandra. 

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Please don't trust me on anything, particularly anything as speculative as this. (And for reference, I've yet to even re-read WoR, so I doubt I'm that familiar with the books relative to most forum-goers. I just remember a few scenes very vividly and am good at searching for quotes.)

 

Ah, so you're a bit more like me then

 

As far as light eyes go, we know the following:

• Lighteyes have light-eyed children (though it can get weird). In fact, I recall it being said to Kaladin that the children of a Shardbearer could be lighteyed. (I think. Someone please correct me on this point.)
• Eye color is related in some way to having your soul altered. Gain a spren bond, gain a different eye color. Gain Jezrien's Honorblade in your hand, and you get sapphire eyes.
• We know that other magical phenomenon in the cosmere can be inherited. Even Inquisitors can have Allomantic children by WoB (though it's not as likely as a natural Allomancer).
• Kaladin himself comes to the conclusion that lighteyes are as respected as they are due to a memory of the Radiants and says that their children would have light eyes. (I think???)
• The worship of lighteyes is a "recent" phenomenon, as Dalinar's vision shows darkeyes in charge. Lighteyes came into power after the Recreance, which is when people wielding dead spren would have started having children. Given each Shardbearer would have absurd power and would naturally end up in charge (or at least as an elite), lighteyes becoming the ruling class makes sense if Shard-changed eye color is hereditary.

I find the evidence overall to support the idea that lighteyes as a whole arose because of people having children with Shardbearers. It's not confirmed by any means, however, and it would be weird if darkeyes were the default... but that's how I lean.

 

Also of note, however, is that if darkeyes isn't the default, Dalinar's visions have a surprising lack of lighteyed peasants. Taffa was darkeyed, as I recall (though it may be Dalinar does not remark on it). Dalinar also doesn't remark on any lighteyed foot soldiers in the Feverstone Keep thing. If dark eyes are not the default, this is statistically unlikely. (Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong on these.)

 

Your last point is one I hadn't thought of. Though it seems weird to have a population with no light eye colors, we are given pseudo evidence of the fact. I would find it odd for Dalinar to not remark on seeing lighteyes in lowly ranks when he has seen and commented on darkeyes in higher ranks. Particularly once he and Navani start taking meticulous notes about his visions.

 

So the question now becomes whether the Heralds were all chosen at the same time. If not, Shalash could have been born after Jezrien getting his blade, and as a result the possibility of a lighteye child is apparent. If that is not the case, though, then it should be impossible, given our current information, for her to have the light eyes without some kind of influence, or her being a Stormlight savant. My only problem with the savant argument is that it should have been documented and more well known, as I'm sure there were other Lightweavers or Truthwatchers who achieved savant status if it were possible. But then again the historical documents are heavily editted/trashed, so uh... this hurts. This physically hurts...

 

I suppose one could also argue that savant status, with stormlight, requires much more use than it does with metals, but I don't see much evidence supporting/disproving that.

 

Could Honorblades have a different effect when held by Heralds then when held by non-Heralds?

 

The Heralds are not native to Roshar, so their Spirtweb could be very different and be affected in different ways. Assuming that the Honorblades were created by Honor to be wielded specifically by the Heralds.

 

Tangent: I'm partial to the theory that the Heralds from Braize, and that the Tranquiline Halls became Damnation when Odium showed up. They could also be native to Yolen, and traveled with Honor when he left Yolen and faffed off to Roshar with Cultivation.

Which begs the question, does Cultivation have a Herald equivalent, or do they share the Heralds? I think I read somewhere that the Heralds are "of Honor" but this could be a situation much like the kandra.

 

That is a possibility that has been brought up, but I find it hard to believe. Why would the honorblades act differently for Heralds than for anyone else? There has been no evidence of such, and all in-novel characters believe Honorblades to be just like Shardblades in almost every way, and all their stories came from them being wielded by the Heralds. Even Szeth is of the opinion that it takes 10 heartbeats to summon them, when WoB says it doesn't. If the Honorblades acted differently for the Heralds, the general populace should know of it, as their stories of the Heralds should be riddled with differences from Shardblades.

 

Also, it is not canon, to my knowledge, that the Heralds are non-Rosharan. It is just a theory some people believe.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Moogle]

Could Honorblades have a different effect when held by Heralds then when held by non-Heralds?

 

The Heralds are not native to Roshar, so their Spirtweb could be very different and be affected in different ways. Assuming that the Honorblades were created by Honor to be wielded specifically by the Heralds.

 

It's possible, but I've never been partial to the argument. Still, I asked this question to try and get more information on the theory:

Question

Would a Returned who bonded an Honorblade have their eye color change when they summon it?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO! (More because I don't have my notes handy than anything else, though.)

(source)

 

He didn't know off-hand, which suggests being a not-quite-human might mess with that sort of thing.

 

Still, I don't find the argument very convincing. Eye color discussions are so difficult because of the lack of.... everything. I have to admit it's a possibility though.

 

My only problem with the savant argument is that it should have been documented and more well known, as I'm sure there were other Lightweavers or Truthwatchers who achieved savant status if it were possible. But then again the historical documents are heavily editted/trashed, so uh... this hurts. This physically hurts...

 

I suppose one could also argue that savant status, with stormlight, requires much more use than it does with metals, but I don't see much evidence supporting/disproving that.

 

Well, we know by WoB that more than just Allomancy does savant-stuff. The mechanics are that a constant influx of power sort of warps your spiritweb, I think? So I'd expect that Stormlight savants exist. (Of course, for the moment, I suspect the Soulcasting ardents are the savants, and that Radiants' ability to heal themselves will prevent any savanthood.)

 

WoB on that by the way:

IronCaf

In what ways is the process of becoming an allomantic savant like body building or other exercise?

Brandon Sanderson

[Paraphrasing] That is not an inapt metaphor for it.  It's like a wedge gets in the soul and cracks it, and investiture can fill it up.

IronCaf

And using allomancy breaks it further?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

IronCaf

Do other magic systems in the Cosmere function in a similar way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

IronCaf

Which ones?  Will we see them soon?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to RAFO that.

(source)

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan he/him]

Found the quote for Iriali having light eyes:
 

A second figure stood up nearby, wearing tan clothing the color of stone. Shallan jumped. How had she missed spotting him? He was so close! He had a sword at his waist. A lighteyes? No, a foreigner, judging by that golden hair. She never was sire what eye color meant for their social standing. There weren't people with light eyes in the Makabaki region, though they had kings, and practically everyone in Iri had light yellow eyes.

[Emphasis added]

[Vortaan he/him]

Original topic: I don't recall seeing anyone who lost a limb to a Shardblade having it amputated. As far as I was aware, there was still bloodflow and nutrients going to the limb, just the actual control of it was gone. That said,would the limb count as alive if it was still... alive?

[Shaggai]

Oh, while I'm at it, there's this WoB Kyrindor asked for (love that person):

 

Nalan likely has his Honorblade (he takes in Stormlight), so this would be evidence against Honorblades changing your eye color while held if you're a Herald.

 

Of course, Nalan might just have been using a regular Shardblade and kept his Honorblade unsummoned because of the eye color changing effect. He's careful like that. Given how he seems to have fabrials for all the Surges (well, at least two), he strikes me as having enough resources to "waste" on having a Shardblade and Honorblade bound to him.

If he had a Shardblade bound to him, his eyes would be light anyway and the Honorblade shouldn't change them. Do we know what color Nalan's eyes are?

[Guest]

If he had a Shardblade bound to him, his eyes would be light anyway and the Honorblade shouldn't change them. Do we know what color Nalan's eyes are?

No.

[Moogle]

If he had a Shardblade bound to him, his eyes would be light anyway and the Honorblade shouldn't change them. Do we know what color Nalan's eyes are?

 

We don't know if the Honorblade wouldn't change them if he had lighteyes. I asked Brandon a question regarding that, actually, and got a big fat RAFO:

Question

If a non-Windrunner Surgebinder (who had spoken all the Ideals of their Radiant Order) summoned Jezrien's Honorblade, what color eyes would they get? A blend? Different colors for each eye?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO eye color questions for the moment. We'll actually be dealing with some of these in the books. Maybe not the specific ones you ask, but the concepts in general.

(source)