gjustice99 she/her Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Do you think, or are there any WOB, that there is any way to put a splintered shard back together (like Devotion, Dominion or Honor)?
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Chaos Is Splintering a Shard permanent? Brandon Sanderson No. (source) Mason Wheeler And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. (source)
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 13, 2015 Author Posted January 13, 2015 Well, now that I know it can be reversed, my theory is that a new person has to come and claim the shard like Vin did for Preservation and Sazed did for Preservation and Ruin.
Ynax he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Well, now that I know it can be reversed, my theory is that a new person has to come and claim the shard like Vin did for Preservation and Sazed did for Preservation and Ruin. I understand but Odiums reason for splintering Devotion and Dominion was because no one else would be able to take up the shards and challenge him. They can still be taken up but I think you need to somehow put all the splinters together and then take it up. So Vins or Sazed way of doing it would only work if the shard was never splintered just that the holder died or lost the shard (if such a thing can happen). Edited January 13, 2015 by Ynax
anarchitect Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 wasn't the mist in mistborn a splintered form of preservation maybe?
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 wasn't the mist in mistborn a splintered form of preservation maybe? No, Brandon has there are no Splinters of Ruin or Preservation. The mist is something else, which we don't have a term for.
taveren he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 it was like the essence of preservation with a will.
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 If anyone is going to take up all the shards, don't you think it would be Sazed? That guy is the most deserving of all the power the Cosmere has to offer. He is just cool.
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 If anyone is going to take up all the shards, don't you think it would be Sazed? That guy is the most deserving of all the power the Cosmere has to offer. He is just cool. By the same token, he's not likely to attempt to do so unless a very, very pressing reason comes about. He's not the sort of person to seek power for power's sake.
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Weren't the mist spirits cognitive shadows? I think this link to the forum page does a good job of explaining what they are. The alternate scene in WoA where the mist spirits are explained via WoB to be Cognitive Shadows of the First Generation of kandra is non-canonical, however, but I think that the idea of the mist spirit being a shadow still fits. If so, I think the mist spirit is more like the Stormfather, like the power of Preservation itself has gain sentience of a sorts. But the Stormfather is a splinter, so that doesn't necessarily work as an analogy. However, the spirit could have another cause. Before Leras died, he was still the holder of preservation, and he could have been the mist spirit (or controlling it) during his lifetime. This fits for the mist spirit doing a lot of things. After that, we know that Kelsier is still faffing about, and that he is most likely a cognitive shadow (WoB sourced in the link). Kelsier could've picked up the shard for a bit and become the mist spirit for that short time that he held the shard. I'm unsure on how this worked with the whole "Preservation sacrificing his mind so that Ruin would be bound for a time" thing, but maybe "shimmery misty spirit" is what was left over after the mind sacrifice.
taveren he/him Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 By the same token, he's not likely to attempt to do so unless a very, very pressing reason comes about. He's not the sort of person to seek power for power's sake. good point i wonder whats going to happen between stormlight 5 and 6 in the mistborn books it must be big in the cosmere if it has to be written at that point
Shlee Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 However, the spirit could have another cause. Before Leras died, he was still the holder of preservation, and he could have been the mist spirit (or controlling it) during his lifetime. This fits for the mist spirit doing a lot of things. From A Hero of Ages: "By the time Elend saw the “mist spirit,” Preservation must have been barely coherent. I wonder what Elend would have done, had he known that he was in the presence of a dying god—that on that night, he had been the last witness of Preservation’s passing. If Elend had waited just a few more minutes on that ashen field, he would have seen a body—short of stature, black hair, prominent nose—fall from the mists and slump dead into the ash." I'd say it's pretty hard to dispute that the mist spirit was indeed, Leras, for a time. I don't believe we ever see it manifest itself again after that point either, although there are obviously still mists. This is from the epigraphs however, so it is subject to the understanding/POV of their writer (Sazed, after ascension, who should theoretically know what he's talking about) That set of epigraphs also give a pretty good account of how the whole "Preservation-sacrificing-his-mind" thing worked. I think it has been confirmed that the mists afterwards were a cognitive shadow of Preservation although all I could find rapidly to support that was this paraphrased WoB (perhaps I missed something in that forum discussion you posted): QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)So what happens when Shards die? BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitiveshadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody. I'd think it would be exceptionally difficult to put a shard back together, since they have aspects on all three realms - cognitive, spiritual, and physical. I'm not sure we've seen anyone yet who can access the spiritual realm at will, and it seems to me that you'd have to somehow "gather" the shadows from all the different realms and I'd think the splinters as well, in order to put it back together. I don't know that we've seen anyone or anything with that kind of capability yet, except perhaps another shardholder/intact shard. *insert crackpot theory* maybe that's why Hoid is gathering all the magics he can, so that he can magically repair shards with a combination of all the magical essences of the shards.....
Darkness he/him Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 By the same token, he's not likely to attempt to do so unless a very, very pressing reason comes about. He's not the sort of person to seek power for power's sake. I would be interested to know how much "Sazed" -as we know him from Mistborn- has been changed into Harmony. I think at this point I consider him a mesh of 2 personalities, Sazed and shardic intent. But as time goes on, won't he become more enigmatic from our PoV? After all, we all know him as a Terrisman, but will he slowly become a brand new character due to the influence of his shard? Or maybe with the 2 equal and opposite shards Ruin and Preservation he can maintain his personality and simply adopt the power? It's interesting to me because, theoretically, Sazed would be interested in the Cosmere from a theological and scholastic standpoint, but I could see the intent Harmony working towards bringing the Cosmere into alignment with its intent. What I'm picturing is Harmony working to bring any splintered shard back into harmony with itself (realigning), bringing the shards of Adonalsium back into harmony with each other, and otherwise working towards Cosmeric (Cosmeric is now a thing, instead of universal) unification. Harmony could either want balance (stasis), or unity (a harmonious state). Humor me one last time. It would be really cool (and would totally reinvent the story every time) if Harmony were to, in his hypothetical quest for shardic unity, merge another shard with himself, and then slowly change into another shardic intent! We could have the whole Cosmere story arc telling us about how Sazed grows and develops as a character through his successive merging of shardic intents. Sorry if I ramble, it's more fun that way
Paragrin she/her Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I'm fairly sure Harmony won't want stasis, that's Preservation. Although when you think about it, Harmony is kind of a weird name - from the melding of Intents and a dose of human perspective, I'd have called the combination Growth (or possibly Creation, but that's too close to unbroken Adonalsium, or Investiture being called the power of creation; it'd get confusing).
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 Maybe the shards could be picked up by another shardholder then.
Moogle Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I'm fairly sure Harmony won't want stasis, that's Preservation. Although when you think about it, Harmony is kind of a weird name - from the melding of Intents and a dose of human perspective, I'd have called the combination Growth (or possibly Creation, but that's too close to unbroken Adonalsium, or Investiture being called the power of creation; it'd get confusing). I'm not sure i can agree on Ruin + Preservation being Growth. That's the opposite of both Intents, so I wouldn't expect it to work.
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 21, 2015 Author Posted January 21, 2015 I'm not sure i can agree on Ruin + Preservation being Growth. That's the opposite of both Intents, so I wouldn't expect it to work.I feel it should have been equilibrium
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I feel it should have been equilibrium a.k.a. harmony
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I'm not sure i can agree on Ruin + Preservation being Growth. That's the opposite of both Intents, so I wouldn't expect it to work. That and there already is a growth shard. It's called Cultivation.
Moogle Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 That and there already is a growth shard. It's called Cultivation. While we don't know much about Cultivation, we do know this: Autarchk (March 2013)If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now? Brandon Sanderson They were two shards. Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it. Nepene I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him—Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people. Brandon Sanderson Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view. That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else. (source) Ruin is compatible with Cultivation, but Growth would be the opposite of Ruin. I think I'd say Cultivation is more about change than growth necessarily. But we have so little to speculate on at this point...
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 No, it is clearly stated in Mistborn that Preservation is Ruin's fundamental opposite. Cultivation can be compatible with and opposite just as Preservation is compatible and opposite. Cultivation, assuming it is growth, and Ruin are two halfs of a whole any way. Ruin would grow things just to destroy them in the same way Cultivation could destroy something in order to let something else grow. Two halfs of a whole.
Moogle Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) No, it is clearly stated in Mistborn that Preservation is Ruin's fundamental opposite. Cultivation can be compatible with and opposite just as Preservation is compatible and opposite. You're welcome to take that position, since we have very little to go off of, but I think we'll have to disagree on this point. If they're opposite, I can't imagine the Shards being compatible. I also am reasonably confident you could have multiple opposites, not just one. Either way, we have no WoBs to go off for this one. Maybe we'll learn more in the future. Regarding the bit about Ruin creating things... he couldn't, not without Preservation. Sazed says Ruin was willing to build one thing up if he could knock two things, but I don't know if the power could ever literally create something without ruining something greater or without help from another Shard. (Not sure how that works, in retrospect, since creation would be the opposite of both of Intents. Maybe they were still early on in their Shard-careers and weren't fully subsumed?) Edited January 22, 2015 by Moogle
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I just said that Cultivation could still be compatible. Well, I implied it by stating that Ruin and Preservation are compatible and opposite. I do think that Cultivation is also fundamentally opposite to Cultivation and Ruin equally. Not Honor though, as a side note. All of the shards are compatible. In that WoB, Brandon was talking about temperaments specifically, and not literal compatibility of powers. Odium would change any temperament to one with more hatred in them, the same way that Honor would change the holder to act with more decency toward his fellow men. That doesn't mean that Honor and Odium aren't compatible, it just means that they would be as conflicting a pair as Ruin and Preservation or even Cultivation and Preservation. Ruin wanted to create and agreed to Preservations deal because he wanted to destroy things. My point there still stands. Edited January 22, 2015 by Arthur Dent
Moogle Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I see your point better, and was misinterpreting you slightly earlier about what you meant with 'compatible'. Sorry about that. I'm not entirely on board with you, since I'm not sure there's a difference between the compatibility of temperaments of Shards and literal compatibility of powers, but it's a strong possibility. There's nothing more I can really add at this point thanks to the lack of information. 2
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Because they were one whole (Adolnasium) at one point, I'm going to say with some definity that all the Shards are fundamentally compatible. They will have to be put back together in a specific order with Odium being the last one to be added to the whole. The reason I say this is because Odium will need all of the context possible for its anger to be channelled properly. Also, I just changed topics slightly to an old Adolnasium argument. Sorry. Up vote for admitting a mistake of yours when you caught it. Edited January 22, 2015 by Arthur Dent 1
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