Allomantic Metals to Stormlight

[Kipper he/him]

Do we have any WoB on a ratio of Allomantic Metals to Stormlight?

The WoR scene with Shallan and Hoid implies that Hoid just converted the entire system, but could it be done another way?

[Moogle]

WoB is that you can power basically any system with any Investiture, if you can get the right adapter.

 

That said, Hoid wasn't converting anything as far as we know in WoR, unless I'm misinterpreting you? Hoid was still burning metals to do some Allomancy, he wasn't using Stormlight.

[Kipper he/him]

Right. What I meant was something like "he brought Allomancy to Roshar."

Did something have to happen Cognitively, Spiritually, or something else for that to happen?

[Moogle]

We don't know! Theories are welcome on that. We do know by WoB that Allomancy is one of the easiests magics to get working on other worlds. Whether this means it works by default is up for debate.

[Kipper he/him]

What is the core idea behind Allomancy? Why does it work?

I'm going to begin a reread of Mistborn tomorrow, but I would still like to know the answer to those.

Thanks.

[Moogle]

What is the core idea behind Allomancy? Why does it work?

I'm going to begin a reread of Mistborn tomorrow, but I would still like to know the answer to those.

Thanks.

 

We don't know. Here's what we do know for sure:

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

(source)

 

I've actually spent quite a bit time on theories for Allomancy's mechanics, but there's not enough space in this post to include everything.

 

(SPECULATION!!!!!!!!) To summarize some of my thoughts:

• The Allomancer starts to 'burn' a metal through a mental thought. They can do this after they've Snapped. (Intent of the practitioner to do magic plays a huge part in most of the magic systems.)
• The metal "sucks" on Preservation's essence like a straw, much like a gem in Roshar pulls on the Stormlight in a highstorm. (This terminology is wonky; Investiture acts like radiation, or a gas/liquid, or a thousand other things based on your theory.)
• The power, as it goes through the metal, is 'filtered' into a power. The body is strengthened, or time is stopped, or whatever.
• By WoB: After being used, the Investiture is turned into a different form, which then finds its way back to Preservation. It's like you've set up a water wheel to draw on the power of a river, and then the water continues on its way. Preservation is not permanently weakened by the use of Allomancy.

There's a number of unsolved issues in Allomancy. Why are Mistings only able to burn one metal? How do sDNA mechanics work as things are transferred? How does Hoid draw on Preservation when he's on Roshar?

 

There's a number of WoBs I've not included - if you want them, let me know. They deal with why impure alloys don't work very well (the molecular structure is messed up), how Snapping works (it's like a supersaturated liquid), and that sort of thing.

 

---

 

As a suggestion, while you're rereading Mistborn, read the annotations for it! They often include some information on this sort of thing. The Snapping mechanics WoB, for example, is in the Mistborn annotations. Make sure you hit 'show spoilers' whenever possible.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper he/him]

This post has two parts:

 

Part One: Gateways

On Scadrial, each Misting, Ferring, Twinborn, or Mistborn is given access to one or more metals. This then provides the “gateway,” “pattern,” or “form” for the Investiture. These “gateways” are woven into the SpiritWeb or the sDNA, whichever you prefer. But if one eats a bead of lerasium, one becomes a Mistborn.

So, are “gateways” inherent (just closed) to everyone’s sDNA and they just have to be opened up by Preservation, or are the “gateways” created by Preservation when someone becomes a Misting or Mistborn?

 

Part Two: Shardic Influence

This one is pretty simple. (I hope)

Do Shards have influence outside their own planet or system?

Sazed caught the barest hint of Adonalsium and the Shattering (paraphrase). According to WoB, he also knew about the other planets, but had no desire to travel to them.

Did Sazed know these things because the Shards just knew that stuff, or because they are still somewhat connected to the other Shards?

Basically, I’m trying to find out if, say, the influence of Endowment could possibly be felt on, say, Scadrial.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Part Two: Shardic Influence

This one is pretty simple. (I hope)

Do Shards have influence outside their own planet or system?

Sazed caught the barest hint of Adonalsium and the Shattering (paraphrase). According to WoB, he also knew about the other planets, but had no desire to travel to them.

Did Sazed know these things because the Shards just knew that stuff, or because they are still somewhat connected to the other Shards?

Basically, I’m trying to find out if, say, the influence of Endowment could possibly be felt on, say, Scadrial.

 

What do you mean by influence? To continue using your example, I do not think Endowment can reach to and influence anything on Scadrial. From reading the books exactly once, my understanding was that upon ascending one's mind is opened to the universe Cosmere. This enlightenment includes much knowledge, probably the ability to see things a normal being can't, among other benefits. It is simply the matter of being a god. I think it is hard for us mere mortal humans to imagine just how much Sazed "learned" upon becoming Harmony. I do not think it is necessarily knowledge tied to the Shard, but rather the knowledge came about as a mere fact of being a god.

[Moogle]

So, are “gateways” inherent (just closed) to everyone’s sDNA and they just have to be opened up by Preservation, or are the “gateways” created by Preservation when someone becomes a Misting or Mistborn?

 

The explanation of Snapping and the mists would be useful to have here:

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn’t much of a revelation. Hopefully I’ll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don’t know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That’s a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It’s very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it’s not a perfect system. It’s like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won’t be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists’ intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It’s in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That’s because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn’t happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

(source)

 

This probably doesn't answer your question, but we don't exactly know the answer to it. As to lerasium, what that's doing is also unclear. It's not required for Allomancy, though - all Scadrians have the "seeds" for the Metallic Arts in them:

Comatose (18 October 2008)

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

 

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

(source)

 

As to what lerasium does:

17th Shard

If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically?

 

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense?

 

17TH SHARD

It does.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

(source)

 

Speculation: It seems that being born on any world where a Shard Invests gives you some sDNA relating to that Shard. Every Scadrian has some marker on their soul saying "hi I have links to Preservation and Ruin", though sDNA itself is like actual DNA, with genes - a Scadrian who had a child with a Nalthian could give that child Allomancy. If you have enough of the right genes saying that, you get a link to Preservation great enough to allow you to burn metals.

 

Also, to talk about your question's phrasing specifically: the sDNA is not the gateway. Something about your sDNA lets you burn metals, and metals are the gateway. The power that comes through the metal is either filtered through its molecular structure, or else is filtered through your spiritweb (the WoB on this and Ars Arcanum of Alloy of Law are unclear). In particular, the WoB above had this to say: "The Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside."

 

As to whether this gateway is a pre-existing thing in every bit of metal, or whether you have some link to Preservation you can touch to the metal, is unknown. We don't really have an answer to your question.

 

 

Do Shards have influence outside their own planet or system?

Sazed caught the barest hint of Adonalsium and the Shattering (paraphrase). According to WoB, he also knew about the other planets, but had no desire to travel to them.

Did Sazed know these things because the Shards just knew that stuff, or because they are still somewhat connected to the other Shards?

Basically, I’m trying to find out if, say, the influence of Endowment could possibly be felt on, say, Scadrial.

 

We don't know. We know that Sazed, if he wished, could teleport to Roshar, though he would have to rip a part of his power out of Scadrial and leave some behind and it would have weird issues. (Some speculate this is why Odium is bound to the Rosharan solar system: he's unwilling to lose some power by leaving, and so has to kill everyone in order to safely reclaim it.)

 

As to what Sazed knows: just picking up the Shard lets you know the history of its power. Sazed mentions this in the Mistborn epigraphs - he knew how Rashek did everything, and looking back he was able to determine the name "Adonalsium". WoR says Adonalsium walked many of the planets, so it's possible each Shardholder knows that by tracing back to the history of how Adonalsium's power was used.

 

Still, this is all very unclear and up in the air.

 

If you want anything clarified, let me know!

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper he/him]

I think that quote from Brandon did answer my question. He said that everyone has Allomantic potential, but it's buried. To me, that implies that when one Snaps, the "gateway" to be able to use a particular metal opens. Am I reading that right?

Also, is there anything to suggest that a lerasium Mistborn, such as Elend, burns through metals faster than normal?

[Moogle]

I think that quote from Brandon did answer my question. He said that everyone has Allomantic potential, but it's buried. To me, that implies that when one Snaps, the "gateway" to be able to use a particular metal opens. Am I reading that right?

 

I think you're reading it right, though I'm not sure on your use of "gateway". When I think "gateway", I look to the AonDor as the most obvious example - Raoden feels the Dor as a force trying to push its way into the world. When he draws an Aon, he's essentially cutting open a barrier between this world and wherever the Investiture is, and it flows forth (like, say, compressed gas shoots out of a can). I'd guess Preservation has a similar thing going on, but I'm not sure.

 

When you use "gateway", you seem to be talking more metaphorically about an Allomancer's power, though I may be misinterpreting you.

 

The WoB says that Allomancers have taken the extra bit of Preservation in their soul, essentially, and they use this to draw power from metals (which just act as a gateway for Preservation's Investiture to come through). This isn't the same thing as everyone having Allomantic potential - not everyone was Snapped by the mists, for example. But it might very well be the case. I'm not sure.

 

Also, is there anything to suggest that a lerasium Mistborn, such as Elend, burns through metals faster than normal?

 

We don't know. I feel like it would have been mentioned if he did... but on speculative theoretical grounds, I'd say he should. When you use a very powerful Command in Awakening, it drains a lot more color than a simple Command. Metals kinda act like color, so a stronger Push should mean more metals are used up. (Note: I'm not actually sure on that - it's been forever since I read Warbreaker. If anyone could confirm/deny that more color is drained when more Breaths go into a Command, I'd appreciate it. As I recall, though, Lightsong basically drained the color of an entire room?)

 

It's also possible lerasium Mistborn just use what Investiture they have more efficiently. This is sorta-paralleled in Surgebinding, where the stronger your bond to your spren gets, the more efficiently you can use Stormlight. If being a strong Allomancer means having a stronger "bond" (?) to Preservation, they might just use the Investiture drawn through the metals more efficiently.

 

Again, unfortunately as it is, we don't know. Theorizing is fun, though!

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

We don't know. I feel like it would have been mentioned if he did... but on speculative theoretical grounds, I'd say he should. When you use a very powerful Command in Awakening, it drains a lot more color than a simple Command. Metals kinda act like color, so a stronger Push should mean more metals are used up. (Note: I'm not actually sure on that - it's been forever since I read Warbreaker. If anyone could confirm/deny that more color is drained when more Breaths go into a Command, I'd appreciate it. As I recall, though, Lightsong basically drained the color of an entire room?)

 

I believe that is not the case. Color drains to grey in all cases except where the Awakener has reached the Heightening that allows them to drain the color down to white. Lifeless, requiring but one Breath, are drained to grey. Vasher's straw man takes a multitude of Breath, yet the scarf still drains to grey.

 

I have a feeling I've misunderstood you and you actually mean the amount of color drained as in Vasher only using the color from half the scarf on the straw man. In that case I do not know. I don't recall it ever being mentioned outside of the straw man instance. It has been a year since I read it though.

 

I thought we had confirmation that, using steel for example, a stronger push required a stronger burn, which in turn burns more metal. Is that not the answer to the question? As for why Elend has stronger pushes than Vin, I thought it was due to Vin's finesse, not the lerasium bead. Perhaps I am mistaken?

Edited January 13, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Moogle]

I believe that is not the case. Color drains to grey in all cases except where the Awakener has reached the Heightening that allows them to drain the color down to white. Lifeless, requiring but one Breath, are drained to grey. Vasher's straw man takes a multitude of Breath, yet the scarf still drains to grey.

 

I have a feeling I've misunderstood you and you actually mean the amount of color drained as in Vasher only using the color from half the scarf on the straw man. In that case I do not know. I don't recall it ever being mentioned outside of the straw man instance. It has been a year since I read it though.

 

I was thinking about quantity of color drained - for example, Susebron's color-draining is so strong that Siri sees color drain from the floor before he gets into the room. That might be more due to Susebron Awakening tons of things, though. You're right on Lifeless vs. straw man - the Lifeless does seem like it uses more color, despite using less Breath. I think I was wrong. It could be more complex, though, and the color drained has something to do with the type of Command...

 

I thought we had confirmation that, using steel for example, a stronger push required a stronger burn, which in turn burns more metal. Is that not the answer to the question? As for why Elend has stronger pushes than Vin, I thought it was due to Vin's finesse, not the lerasium bead. Perhaps I am mistaken?

 

You can flare metals, burning them faster, for more power... but this does not answer the question of whether a normal push from Elend, when he's not flaring, uses up more metal than when Vin does the same thing. Elend's Push will be much more powerful due to his innate power, but it's not clear if this will use up metal faster.

 

Edit: And to be clear, Elend's Pushes were more powerful because he was a lerasium Mistborn, not because Vin was going for finesse. Burning as much lerasium as Elend did makes you very powerful. Elend was nearly as powerful as TLR due to the bead. I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, though. Elend could Push far more powerfully than Vin ever could (I think the numbers for koloss were Elend could control thousands, and Vin only hundreds?).

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

You can flare metals, burning them faster, for more power... but this does not answer the question of whether a normal push from Elend, when he's not flaring, uses up more metal than when Vin does the same thing. Elend's Push will be much more powerful due to his innate power, but it's not clear if this will use up metal faster.

 

Ah, okay. I've been trying to hunt a WoB and I'm not finding one. I also don't recall that being mentioned in the book, likely due to the characters not exactly having time for SCIENCE!!!

[Kipper he/him]

Thank you guys so much for all the answers!

I am going to read Mistborn again before asking any more dumb questions, but I'll be back on this thread in a couple of days, probably.

[Moogle]

Thank you guys so much for all the answers!

I am going to read Mistborn again before asking any more dumb questions, but I'll be back on this thread in a couple of days, probably.

 

I'm glad I could help. Your questions were not at all dumb, though! Cosmere information is scattered around and not very well organized, so learning this stuff is difficult.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'm glad I could help. Your questions were not at all dumb, though! Cosmere information is scattered around and not very well organized, so learning this stuff is difficult.

 

Moreover, helping newcomers helps us better understand and remember Cosmere information, plus hopefully will aid you in positively contributing to our theories. It's really a win-win for everyone.

[Dunkum he/him]

Ah, okay. I've been trying to hunt a WoB and I'm not finding one. I also don't recall that being mentioned in the book, likely due to the characters not exactly having time for SCIENCE!!!

I'm pretty sure the book establishes that Elend tends to be stronger than Vin at comparable things.  I forget if the Lerasium bead is cited as the reason in the books or not, but I'm reasonably sure it is in a WoB somewhere.

[Redbird he/him]

Yes, lerasium mistborn are more powerful than ones with diluted genetics.

[Kipper he/him]

That was not my original question...

But hugs and kisses anyway.

[Skantre]

Well I think I can answer you the original question you were asking, regarding the ratio between metal and stormlight. (I honestly have no idea how this post got so sidetracked, but anyways.)

 

First, you must understand one VERY important concept: Every practicable magic is powered by Investiture.

[The emphasis on practicability is due to the fact that there are worlds where magic that people can only interact with, such as Threnody and First of the Sun, which is described in the novellas Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell and Sixth of the Dusk]

 

Every magic practitioners in the cosmere has a tiny bit of investiture inside them, and if I don't remember it wrong it's more or less the prerequisite of using magic. However, it is not enough for people to actually use magic, so they'll need more investiture from a certain source.

 

Stormlight itself is an investiture. I don't think I can really explain more on that.

 

Yet, as above mentioned, metals are only gateways, or in a more accepted sense we call it the Focus.

 

We can't possibly have a ratio on metals and Stormlight as they belong to groups of two very different but related concepts.

 

I suppose you raise the question due to the fact that you realize Stormlight can support a Returned. Returned, aka Type One Biochromatic Entities, aka Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host, requires a Breath every week, as you must know. Breath is another type of investiture.

 

If you insist to compare the seemingly "sources of magic" between Scadrial and Roshar, perhaps the best that you can ask is the ratio between Atium/Lerasium and Stormlight, as they are both in fact investitures. Mists are also a type of investiture that can be found on Scadrial, and it feels more comparable to Stormlight, in the light that they are both in gaseous state of "matter", or investiture.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'm pretty sure the book establishes that Elend tends to be stronger than Vin at comparable things. I forget if the Lerasium bead is cited as the reason in the books or not, but I'm reasonably sure it is in a WoB somewhere.

 

HoA establishes that Elend's allomancy is more forceful, and a bit more brutish, while Vin's allomancy has much more finesse. His pushes and pulls are stronger, but then Elend by that time is relatively well built and not a skinny young woman. It is stated in book, as I recall, that though Elend has more power behind his allomancy, Vin is the stronger Mistborn and would beat him in a fight. I did not take this to mean Lerasium was the reason for Elend's brutish allomancy, because the magic system alone explains the difference due to Elend's size and build. Perhaps I have missed a WoB on the matter, though. Mistborn is my least liked books of Brandon's, so it wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

 

Well I think I can answer you the original question you were asking, regarding the ratio between metal and stormlight. (I honestly have no idea how this post got so sidetracked, but anyways.)

 

First, you must understand one VERY important concept: Every practicable magic is powered by Investiture.

[The emphasis on practicability is due to the fact that there are worlds where magic that people can only interact with, such as Threnody and First of the Sun, which is described in the novellas Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell and Sixth of the Dusk]

 

Every magic practitioners in the cosmere has a tiny bit of investiture inside them, and if I don't remember it wrong it's more or less the prerequisite of using magic. However, it is not enough for people to actually use magic, so they'll need more investiture from a certain source.

 

Stormlight itself is an investiture. I don't think I can really explain more on that.

 

Yet, as above mentioned, metals are only gateways, or in a more accepted sense we call it the Focus.

 

We can't possibly have a ratio on metals and Stormlight as they belong to groups of two very different but related concepts.

 

I suppose you raise the question due to the fact that you realize Stormlight can support a Returned. Returned, aka Type One Biochromatic Entities, aka Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host, requires a Breath every week, as you must know. Breath is another type of investiture.

 

If you insist to compare the seemingly "sources of magic" between Scadrial and Roshar, perhaps the best that you can ask is the ratio between Atium/Lerasium and Stormlight, as they are both in fact investitures. Mists are also a type of investiture that can be found on Scadrial, and it feels more comparable to Stormlight, in the light that they are both in gaseous state of "matter", or investiture.

 

First, I think InexorablePanda understood all this, but it was still a nice summary on the matter. I would like to point out that every individual, magic user or not, has a bit of investiture in them. The "spark of life," or the soul, is investiture. This is most obvious on Nalthis, but it is true on other planets, the people merely cannot separate part of their soul like Nalthians can.

 

As a side note, I find it interesting how many threads have begun to raise questions about investiture ratios. There are quite a few threads running around the Cosmere Theories forum with discussions on these ratios if anyone is interested in reading more of 17th Shards' speculation on the matter.