How to capture a god

[navybrandt he/him]

I have this theory about the Oathpact and the reason for the torture of Heralds, the death of Honor, the reason for the Desolations, and the origin of Honorblades that I don't think anyone else has already stated.

 

First, I'll start with a couple references from Mistborn:

 

In Chapter 57 of Mistborn:HoA, Ruin says this:

Ruin shrugged. "Yes, but no. He gave of himself to craft a cage. Though his throes of agony have lasted several thousand years, now, finally, he is gone. And the bargain has come to its fruition."

And throughout the book it's made clear that Preservation's sacrifice was only a temporary solution that caused him to give up his mind, but would eventually allow Ruin to escape his prison.

 

Also, in chapter 81 of HoA, Vin was able to use the power of Preservation to push back against Ruin causing her divine body to tremble in pain and agony and eventually die.  I know Vin didn't trap Ruin this way, but I'm just pointing out that she hindered Ruin and that fighting a god causes pain - at least when the gods are so opposed.

 

To me, this sounds a lot like the Oathpact.

• It's called a bargain, instead of a pact, but they mean almost the same thing.
• There is pain involved.
• A god must give of themself.
• A god eventually dies as a result.
• A god is trapped/imprisoned or hindered in some way.
• It's a temporary solution.

Now, what if Honor and the the Heralds figured out a way to trap (or at least hinder) Odium and make it closer to permanent?  Instead of Honor suffering agony for thousands of years (just like Preservation), dieing, and Odium eventually escaping (or regaining full power), the Heralds agreed to endure the pain in place of Honor (how this was accomplished will be discussed below).  And what if by doing so, they prevented/delayed Honor's death?

 

There was some kind of bargain (Oathpact) between Honor and Odium that trapped/hindered Odium temporarily, but caused Honor to die, after a few thousand years of agony, in the process.  Afterall, would it not be honorable to give up your life to save the lives of the entire world?  However, Odium was tricked because of the intervention of the Heralds (this might be considered dishonorable though, so Honor would not be involved in the trick).  Odium still escaped his prison (or regained his full power) every few thousand years and it caused a Desolation.  He is defeated and re-imprisoned; the Heralds return to the place of torment; and Honor still lives as a result.

 

Now, I know Taln was still being tortured after the "last" Desolation, but what if that wasn't enough to save Honor's life this time, so he died or splintered.  There is speculation that this is what caused the Recreance.

 

Finally, I think this original Oathpact is what forged the Honorblades - their origin being hidden in plain sight.  Honor had to give of himself to trap/hinder Odium, and the Honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor's power - much like the Mist is the physical manifestation of Preservation's power or Atium is Ruin's.

 

These Honorblades were given to the Heralds to grant them great power during the eventual escape of Odium.  But in the process, because they held pieces of Honor's "body," they endured great torture when they were in the place of torment.  I believe that place of torment is one and the same as Odium's prison.  Holding an Honorblade and being in Odium's prison at the same time is excruciatingly painful, but it saved Honor's life - until the Heralds (except for Taln) failed to return the last time.

 

Any thoughts, flaws, additions?

 

Edit: modified for clarity and to address some of the comments below

Edited January 8, 2015 by navybrandt

[gjustice99 she/her]

The reason she was in agony and had to sacrifice herself to kill Ati is because the powers of Preservation and Ruin are balanced.

[navybrandt he/him]

Correct, at least unless Ruin got his "body" back. My point is that it is painful for one god to fight another god.  The Ruin quote above states that Preservation was in agony for several thousand years.  I believe this weakened him to the point that he died.  Perhaps the Heralds endured the torture in Honor's place so that Honor could live.  It's speculation but I believe it is sound.

Edited January 6, 2015 by navybrandt

[gjustice99 she/her]

Ruin never got his "body" back as it was destroyed before he could reclaim it. And yes, I agree that imprisoning Ruin probably led to Leras' death, though it did not affect Vin in the same way.

[kaellok he/him]

Not sure if you've seen this WoB:

 

 

 

Wetlander
Q:  Was Odium able to splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?
A:  Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related...but mostly tangentially.  If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.
Q:  Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation.
A:  Yes, indeed.

This certainly has at least some implication for your theory.  The core of it may still be sound, though.

[navybrandt he/him]

Ruin never got his "body" back as it was destroyed before he could reclaim it. And yes, I agree that imprisoning Ruin probably led to Leras' death, though it did not affect Vin in the same way.

I know Ruin never got his body back.  I did have to read the books to come up with my theory.  As I said before, my point about bringing up Vin was to say that it is painful for one god to fight another god.  Don't get hung up on the Vin reference.  My main Mistborn quote for my theory comes from Chapter 57 of HoA.

[taveren he/him]

i don't think odium is stuck or traped he doesn't want to leave since he would leave part of himself there in the form of voidspren and maybe the unmade i think he needed to win following some sort of rules to get that power back. more interesting is how he is killing all these others i think he might have something that is helping maybe whatever was used to shatter adonalsium

[Oudeis he/him]

The Ruin/Preservation thing.

 

I need to find the quotes to back all this up...

 

Ruin and Preservation caused pain, not by attacking each other, but simply by contact, not because any two Shards will do so, but because they are so specifically and diametrically opposed. And we know that no other pairs of Shards are as utterly opposite as those two. Their situation is, by WoB, unique. There might be something to your theory, but a big part of your basis seems to be predicated on the idea that Honor against Odium is the same as Preservation against Ruin, and there were factors at play in the second that simply aren't there in the first.

 

A good theory, though. I'm going to ponder the other points you brought up for a bit.

[navybrandt he/him]

i don't think odium is stuck or traped he doesn't want to leave since he would leave part of himself there in the form of voidspren and maybe the unmade i think he needed to win following some sort of rules to get that power back. more interesting is how he is killing all these others i think he might have something that is helping maybe whatever was used to shatter adonalsium

In response to Odium helping whatever shattered Adonalsium, there is a theory somewhere (I couldn't find it, but I remember seeing it) that there was a force diametrically opposed to Adonalsium called the Void that is trying to destroy everything.  And there is a WoB that says long ago, there was a plot to destroy Adonalsium here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22313-plot-to-destroy-adonalsium-confirmed-by-brandon/

[taveren he/him]

for all we know that force could just be an adonalsium type power from a different  galaxy. would explain why all the books and shards are in the same galaxy and none of them left

[navybrandt he/him]

Considering that galaxies are at least a few hundred thousand light years apart (sometimes millions), it might just mean they are too far away for the shards to travel.  Not sure is the cognative or spiritual realms would allow intergalactic travel though.  Of course if Adonalsium is the One god, space and time probably don't even matter to him/her/them/it.

 

Adonalsium or the One god or something must have come up with the rules that the shards must follow though, and rules are pretty useless if there is not some way to enforce them.  If Odium must win by following some sort of rules to get his power back, I'd be curious how he is forced into following those rules and how the Oathpact ties in to it all.

[taveren he/him]

if a person can jump to far away planets then you would think a shard could do more

 

although maybe theres no way to jump to another galaxy through shadesmar

[Blaze1616 he/him]

if a person can jump to far away planets then you would think a shard could do more

 

although maybe theres no way to jump to another galaxy through shadesmar

 

As was revealed at the recent Orem signing, Shadesmar has no equivalent for physical space. Instead, locations manifest in Shadesmar if there is a Cognitive presence. As such, worldhoppers using Shadesmar can walk from one planet to the other because all the physical space in between is nonexistent. This would mean that one could use Shadesmar to travel to another galaxy only if there were a Cognitive presence in the other galaxy. This all assumes, however, that other galaxies even exist. The WoB that states the Cosmere is the size of a dwarf galaxy does not state there are other galaxies as well, if I recall correctly.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.