dvoraen Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 As the topic says, I've been pondering on this subject lately, especially considering that Peter may have hinted (keyword: may) that the Unmade are Voidbinders. But I'm getting ahead of myself, here. Let's start with what we do know about Voidbinding, from the Ars Arcanum, and then I'll bust out the random fancy: ...I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings... It's not much to go on, but my ruminations began with the bolded key phrases. Consider the following: Voidbinding is, by implication, esoteric. The definition of the word esoteric alone suggests that there's a very specific factor to allow for the usage of the power (and/or is exclusive to possibly the Unmade). There are multiple levels of Voidbinding. Speculation took me along the idea that each requires some state to be true in order to reach the next one. Sound familiar? I think of the Heightenings as sourced from Endowment's manifestation of Investiture, specifically that a certain number of Breaths are required to reach a certain level of Heightening. I think there's a similar component here, but the requirement for reaching the various levels of Voidbinding are different. Key in what we know about the Unmade, specifically the following from the Diagram: The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may or may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however. Let's assume for now that the Diagram is spot on with respect to the Unmade and how they're akin to spren. This would therefore imply that they lack a substantial Physical component to their being, that they are mostly Cognitive. If they really are Voidbinders, why would this be a common thread, unless Voidbinding requires a willing sacrifice of oneself in order for the Shard's power to take root? It's almost a corroborated idea, if Rlain's comments on the listener gods' (presumably the Unmade) are indeed factual, that those gods literally gave up aspects of themselves in order to become dangerous, powerful entities. They "unmade" themselves in exchange for Voidbinding powers. Thus, we have some mindless agents of destruction, because they largely gave up sentience in the (I assume) hope to destroy the opposition with the power gained in exchange for that loss of cognition. I then wondered the following: Suppose there are Unmade who simply are just 'mindless' forms of destruction. What if those, then, are therefore the most powerful, because they have "given of themselves to destroy" to such a higher extent, that they have virtually little substance to them, that they're almost literally are just forces of destruction? In other words, they sacrificed almost all of their Physical and/or Cognitive and/or Spiritual components in exchange for attaining higher levels of this power, which are also the most powerful and wide-reaching. Alternatively, it could simply be the case that by sacrificing a specific attribute in one's self (physical form, sentient thought, etc.) gains one access to a specific 'level' of Voidbinding. The chart for it resembling the Surgebinder chart is, however, troubling, and doesn't support the idea of a "prerequisite" system as with Heightenings. Requiring the sacrifice of a specific aspect -- dare I say, Essence? -- on the other hand... Thoughts? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Would this power be end-negative, then? If so, then parallels could be drawn between it and Hemalurgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted December 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) I was kind of leaning towards end-negative, yes, but at the very minimum I see the Shard Odium as an entropic power in the way Ruin's is, only the destructive aspect is considerably more focused. Hatred is not a trivial concept when it has a target. It's why I think that the net gain in (Voidbinding) power seems like it's end-positive, because the use of that power is considerable, but it's really at the larger expense to yourself. For instance, let's just assume that the Unmade do use Voidbinding as the basis for their powers. At the very minimum, Moelach and Nergaoul have a huuuuuuge radius of influence with what they do. The scale for the Death Rattles and Thrill is massive in each case, and this is only what we know they can do. We haven't seen the Unmade in direct confrontation except for maybe Midnight Essence and thunderclasts. Another thing, is that I also think that the Unmade require Investiture (they choose souls) to maintain their powers and/or existence, much like the Returned need Breath to fuel their Divine Breath. In the case of the Unmade, it's to stave off further corrosion to their beings in addition to fueling their powers. It could also be another form of torture that the Heralds go through outside of Desolations, as well, but that is speculation. Edited December 19, 2014 by dvoraen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Do you think that, in a contrast to the spren's symbiotic relationship with Surgebinders, whomever causes Voidbinders would have parasitic relationship with the magic user? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted December 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Do you think that, in a contrast to the spren's symbiotic relationship with Surgebinders, whomever causes Voidbinders would have parasitic relationship with the magic user? I don't think Voidbinding uses a bond in the way the spren instigate a Nahel bond. If anything, I see Voidbinding as akin to Hemalurgy, in that you take something for your own ends. Which reminds me, I should get back to work on the 'Voidbinding' chart for guesswork at the naming for some of the levels. (Yes, I have too much time on my hands to think about this stuff.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messremb Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I had an idea while reading this. Perhaps Honor attempted to prevent the Mindless unmade from running rampant. and destroying Roshar, by bringing them all together into say, an incredibly destructive storm that rotates around the planet? Would also explain why the Listeners need to go out into a high storm to transform. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostrichofevil he/him Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Could evil Spren like Stormspren be Voidbinders, or even the Unmade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 I think voidspren like stormspren and the such are related to Voidbinding the same way spren like honorspren and Cyptics are related to Surgebinding. The red lightning and the summoning of the Everstorm could be a form of voidbinding, and the listeners were only able to do those things once they had bonded with stormspren. The Unmade, on the other hand, are something different. They have a massive amount of power, judging from Moelach's ability to cause the death rattles. My guess is that they're kind of like Odium's response to Honor's Heralds, but there are a lot of good theories out there that point in different directions. If they are, in fact, the Herald's opposites, then they could be associated with different Voids like how different Heralds are associated with different surges. My only question then, is that if all these parallels between Honor and Odium are true, then there must be something akin to the Knights Radiant. Whether this is simply the listeners bonding with voidspren or maybe humans with an anti-Nahel bond (Lehan bond? ), is up to speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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