Gavilar and Dalinar

[RawToast225 he/him]

Alright, folks. I have a question. We know that Gavilar saw the visions from the Almighty that Dalinar saw (see Interlude 13 in WoR). The question for you is if Gavilar hadn't been killed by the Parshendi, would he now be the Bondsmith? Yes, the Everstorm might never have come if he wasn't killed, but what if. If he wouldn't have been a Bondsmith, what is the big difference between the two brothers that makes it possible for one to be a Bondsmith but not the other?

[Oudeis he/him]

Not sure. Why was Kaladin a Windrunner, but Tien a Lightweaver? The point is that the spren has to pick you and decide to Bond to you. Syl entered our world, found Kaladin, was attracted to how honorably he acts, and forged the Bond. If she'd run into a different honorable man first, she might have Bonded with him. Or if Kaladin had given up at the Chasm, or lost his honor when he was betrayed by Amaram, maybe she'd've gone off and found someone else who is honorable.

 

In short, Dalinar is a Bondsmith because he found a spren capable of a Nahel bond and convinced it to forge one with him. If Gavilar had lived, if he was honorable and tried to protect people, who knows? Maybe he would have attracted Syl. Maybe the Circle would have chosen him as the person they wanted Wyndle to Bond and he'd've been an Edgedancer. Maybe he would never have Bonded any spren, and would have had to live out his life as simply the most politically powerful human being on all of Roshar, with nothing more magical than a suit of nigh-impenetrable armor granting fantastical strength and a sword bonded to his soul which can cut through stone as if it were water. And nearly peak human skill at using them.

[Moogle]

The Bondsmiths are all about uniting people. Gavilar united an entire nation, and was prime Bondsmith material. I suspect that only Bondsmiths can receive the visions from the Stormfather anyhow.

 

So in summary: yeah, I think Gavilar was bonded to the Stormfather.

 

(Obligatory yes this is speculation not confirmed it is not fact etc.)

Edited December 13, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Not sure. Why was Kaladin a Windrunner, but Tien a Lightweaver?

 

Do you mean Shallan? Or was Tein actually confirmed to be a proto-radiant?

[RawToast225 he/him]

Tien was a what?!

 

I don't think that only those who are bonded with the Stormfather can receive visions because Dalinar wasn't bonded to him until after he stopped receiving visions. The Almighty just left instructions with the Stormfather about when and who should receive them.

 

It's true that Gavilar could have made a bond with a spren that had a similar temperment to the Stormfather making him a different, but closely related, kind of Radiant. I hadn't considered that possibility. Without Gavilar's death, Dalinar would have never become the person who could bond with the Stormfather. He never would have wanted to unite anything, he never would have read The Way of Kings, he never would have followed the codes. Gavilar seems like he was already there, though. He wanted to unite the Parsheni and the Alethi together. So, if it wasn't for the desire to be like his brother, Dalinar would have never become the honorable person he was.

[Moogle]

I don't think that only those who are bonded with the Stormfather can receive visions because Dalinar wasn't bonded to him until after he stopped receiving visions. The Almighty just left instructions with the Stormfather about when and who should receive them.

Dalinar has been bonded to the Stormfather for quite some time, actually:

Regarding Dalinar: He said that Dalinar has had a bond with the Stormfather "for a while." He also only said one oath at the top of the Urithiru tower, not two. Dalinar conveyed a single idea in that particular oath.

(source)

The surgeons remark on how his wounds were much less severe than they should be, given his scars. It's implied from that that he's been using Stormlight for a long time.

Also, Kaladin was bonded to Syl before he spoke the Second Ideal at the end of WoK, so there's no real reason to assume that Dalinar only bonded him after the Everstorm.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[RawToast225 he/him]

I was under the impression that the first oath is what bonded human and spren together.

[Moogle]

I was under the impression that the first oath is what bonded human and spren together.

 

Here's the WoB on that:

Q:  When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

A:  The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

(source)

 

Which fits. Kaladin never said the First Ideal until mid-WoK, but Syl came anyways.

[Oudeis he/him]

Do you mean Shallan? Or was Tein actually confirmed to be a proto-radiant?

In the Way of Kings, in the chapter The Weeping, Tien carves a photorealistic statue of a horse he'd seen the previous day, despite a generally regarded lack of carpentry skill. He also frequently "makes Kaladin feel better". It's noted in the epigraphs of Words of Radiance that the Lightweavers provided others with Spiritual Sustenance. Later, in the Chasms, when Shallan (a known Lightweaver) does the exact same thing to Kaladin, he even specifically thinks to himself, "This feel exactly like what Tien used to do for me."

 

I think the case is compelling. I am sure enough to flat-out say it as true. If Tien wasn't ... well, getting into Semantics. Are you a Lightweaver before you say the first Oath? When are you a Surgebinder versus a Knight Radiant, and how do we divide up the ten kinds of Surgebinder if the terms for the Orders are reserved for the Radiants? (I've read different W's-o-B which confuse me on his personal use of the terminology. I like allomancy. You're an Allomancer, or you aren't. Snapping takes an instant, and lasts until you die or have that bit of your soul removed. None of this "potentially have a proto-bond which may or may not develop into something more concrete but can always be reversed under specific circumstances but then can be restored". Pah.) For the specific purposes of this post and only this post, I'm going to temporarily define "Lightweaver" as anyone starting to forge a bond with a Cryptic which has the potential to turn into a full Nahel bond granting access to the Illumination and Transformation Surges. If Tien wasn't a Lightweaver, he clearly had access to the same power Shallan has, a power referenced in Words of Radiance as belonging to the order of Lightweavers.

[RawToast225 he/him]

This doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It's more likely that Tien was just a good kid that had an infectiously good attitude. I know some people like that IRL. That doesn't mean that they are Radiants.

[Moogle]

WoB is that Kaladin has known two Lightweavers:

She also got him to sign two books, one with a tidbit about Kaladin and one about Dalinar. The one about Kaladin said, "Kaladin has known two Lightweavers."
(source)

 
I agree with Outis that the case for Tien as the second Lightweaver is compelling, as we've discussed elsewhere. I don't share his confidence to quite the same degree, however. (And in case this thread ends up discussing this in more detail and gets semi-derailed: if Hoid counts as the second Lightweaver, so does Renarin, in which case Kaladin's known more than two, so it can't be someone who can use Lightweaving or the Illumination Surge, it has to be an actual Lightweaver-as-in-bonded-to-a-Cryptic.)

Edited December 13, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis he/him]

This doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It's more likely that Tien was just a good kid that had an infectiously good attitude. I know some people like that IRL. That doesn't mean that they are Radiants.

In both cases it's shown less like oh i feel better when you're around, and more like an actual arcane effect, like Soothing. And the photorealistic horse isn't something people just do.

[RawToast225 he/him]

What photorealistic horse are you talking about?

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I just reread that scene. Paper copy so No Quotes, but yeah I can see the case for him being a Lightweaver.

[dvoraen]

Honestly, I get the feeling that although Gavilar was chosen as a vessel for Honor's visions -- notice how I don't say he was the first person to receive them -- he wasn't likely to advance as a Bondsmith fully.  Why?  His methods were clearly suspect, when one considers his plan to return the Voidbringers to Roshar per the mission of the Sons of Honor.

 

If he were to end up a Bondsmith, I personally suspect at least one of the oaths would have broken.  I could be wrong, and his way of thinking and views of the world have changed -- and Jasnah herself observes that her father has undergone a 'remarkable' transformation -- but the fact that he wanted the Heralds back for suspect reasons, enough so that he was still on that path six years ago, makes me question just how suitable he would have been.

Edited December 14, 2014 by dvoraen

[Patrick Star]

I don't think he would be.

Going off of what Amaram said at the end of WoR, Gavilar was very likely trying to bring about the desolation in order to reestablish the supremacy of Vorinism.

To me, that type of behavior is enough in and of itself to bar Gavilar from becoming a Radiant.

Also, the possibility of him seeking out and capturing an unmade to further this agenda further complicates his ability to have become a bondsmith.

Edit: dvoraen hit the nail on the head.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Patrick Star

[Twenty@20 he/him]

I think we are misreading Gavilar a bit. Agreed in his heydays he was a war mongering overlord like his brother. Additionally he was associated with the Sons of Honor and their lunatic schemes (infered from Amaram's comment towards the end of WoR). But I believe we are missing the extent of Gavilar's transformation towards the end. Both Dalinar and Jasnah have remarked upon this. Let me point out two glaring things Gavilar did at the point of death. One, he quoted the Way of Kings. This is the same book that caused such an effective transformation in Dalinar who was no better than his brother and also perhaps the reason behind Gavilar's change. What did Gavilar's quote refer to? Most probably the first oath. If Gavilar believed in the first oath then it is certain his relations with Sons of Honor were souring. Here we come to the second point. Gavilar suspected Restares, the leader of Sons of Honor, to be behind the assassination. This tells me Gavilar was probably actively subverting their agenda towards the end. Also notice he gives the black sphere to Szeth and tells him it must not fall in wrong hands - presumably Parshendi but can also include Sons of Honor.

We cannot ignore the effects of the visions on Gavilar. They were warning him of a coming Desolation and showing him the consequences of the previous ones. Knowing that I hardly think he would want to hasten the very Desolation which was already coming.

I get the impression from Amaram's comment, implicating Gavilar in his plans, that he was in dark regarding Gavilar's intentions and it is likely Gavilar was trying to subvert their plans from the inside.

In nutshell I think it is not justified to judge Gavilar solely based on Amaram's comment.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Scriptorian he/him]

I think we are misreading Gavilar a bit. Agreed in his heydays he was a war mongering overlord like his brother. Additionally he was associated with the Sons of Honor and their lunatic schemes (infered from Amaram's comment towards the end of WoR). But I believe we are missing the extent of Gavilar's transformation towards the end. Both Dalinar and Jasnah have remarked upon this. Let me point out two glaring things Gavilar did at the point of death. One, he quoted the Way of Kings. This is the same book that caused such an effective transformation in Dalinar who was no better than his brother and also perhaps the reason behind Gavilar's change. What did Gavilar's quote refer to? Most probably the first oath. If Gavilar believed in the first oath then it is certain his relations with Sons of Honor were souring. Here we come to the second point. Gavilar suspected Restares, the leader of Sons of Honor, to be behind the assassination. This tells me Gavilar was probably actively subverting their agenda towards the end. Also notice he gives the black sphere to Szeth and tells him it must not fall in wrong hands - presumably Parshendi but can also include Sons of Honor.

We cannot ignore the effects of the visions on Gavilar. They were warning him of a coming Desolation and showing him the consequences of the previous ones. Knowing that I hardly think he would want to hasten the very Desolation which was already coming.

I get the impression from Amaram's comment, implicating Gavilar in his plans, that he was in dark regarding Gavilar's intentions and it is likely Gavilar was trying to subvert their plans from the inside.

In nutshell I think it is not justified to judge Gavilar solely based on Amaram's comment.

Taravangian also knew about Gavilar's visions and did something completely different with that knowledge than the Sons of Honor. My impression is that Gavilar shared what he knew with several people who proceeded to split up and do their own thing after he died. Gavilar's own intentions are anyone's guess. Recall that Gavilar mentioned someone associated with the Sons of Honor as possibly being behind his assassination (Thadiaker or Restares, I always get the two confused). 

 

Edit: Found it, it's Restares.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Serendipity

[Oudeis he/him]

I will always find that moment amusing. "You, the person who is currently, literally killing me. I like the cut of your jib. Please guard this for me."

 

EDIT: Something's always bothered me. Gavilar tells Szeth, when he thinks he's working for (Restares? Thaidakar?) "It's too late, even killing me won't stop it." ... Won't stop what? It's been six years. What thing happened that killing Gavilar did not prevent? It cannot be the Vengeance Pact because Gavilar thought he was tight with the Parshendi. Is it something that's just taken seven years for us to notice? Is it something we see, but don't realize it was because of Gavilar? Is it the Diagram?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[The Drunk Monkey he/him]

Alright, folks. I have a question. We know that Gavilar saw the visions from the Almighty that Dalinar saw (see Interlude 13 in WoR). The question for you is if Gavilar hadn't been killed by the Parshendi, would he now be the Bondsmith? Yes, the Everstorm might never have come if he wasn't killed, but what if. If he wouldn't have been a Bondsmith, what is the big difference between the two brothers that makes it possible for one to be a Bondsmith but not the other?

 

I think he would be a Bondsmith because even if the Everstorm did not come, the Voidbringers would still be back since the Parshendi killed Gavilar because he was goingto bring back their Gods (I don't remember which Interlude mentions this, but I know Eshonai sais it at one point in the book) which I think is what turns them to Voidbringers anyway

[Oudeis he/him]

What photorealistic horse are you talking about?

 

You may wish to re-read The Weeping. Tien carves a horse. Kaladin comments that it's a perfect replica of an actual living horse Tien had seen the previous day, much as Shallan can draw from memory an entire wall filled with maps and writing she glanced at.

 

If you re-read The Weeping, and also possibly the the earlier flashback chapter where they catch a Lurg, and compare it to the Chasm scenes in Words of Radiance, I think you'll see that it's not simply a matter of "Tien's a likeable fellow and I feel better when he's around." Kaladin is an extremely accurate portrayal of someone who suffers from Seasonal Affective Disorder. You can no more "snap out of it" than people can simply "get over" depression, no matter how infectious someone's smile is. The sort of change that comes over Kaladin in both of their cases is the sort of thing that in our world would require drugs and therapy; bereft of either, and considering that Kaladin points out these two people, and only these two people ever, have made him feel this way, I think my conclusion has strong merit.

[RawToast225 he/him]

Ah, I remember now.