Did Honor have a physical manifestation in Roshar?

[Secret Ardent Man]

During a re-read of WoK, I came across the following quote at the start of Chapter 35:

 

          " Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be.

          And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor." 

 

(emphasis added). 

 

The phrase "in the place nearest to Honor" made me wonder: 

 

     Could Honor have had a physical manifestation on Roshar during the Shadowdays? What exactly does this phrase mean? Knowing what we do from WoR, Urithiru is located high in the mountains somewhere in the middle of Roshar. Did the ancients conceive of the Almighty existing somewhere in the sky or beyond, somewhat like Christianity's depictions of Heaven, or did they conceive of the Almighty existing somewhere in the WEST, opposite from the Origin of the highstorms? 

     

     There are, however, myriad ways in which to interpret this phrase. I know that there was at least one thread where it was postulated that the Nightwatcher was some form of Cultivation, possibly a spren, but possibly Cultivation itself. I also draw your attention to the fact that Preservation was able to physically manifest in Scadrial despite being a shell of his former self. Furthermore, I know of no instance where a WOB stated that a shard could NOT manifest in the world (Harmony chooses to let others act without him). Could Honor have physically manifested himself in Roshar during the shadowdays?

 

      I just want to speculate and spark conversation as to what this quote could possibly mean.

[Moogle]

My reading is that Honor's Shardpool, like most, was up high in the mountains, so they built Urithiru around it. I wouldn't be surprised if they find a sapphire pool of liquid in a hidden room somewhere.

[Mimiddle04]

I was under the impression that it was understood Honor used to have a physical form.  All the shards at one point were humans and had a physical form when they picked up the shard.  Then they became magical and over time the shard and the person merged into one "thing." That "thing" is mostly shard, as explained by Hoid in "The Letter." Honor was around, and did have a physical presence, until he was shattered.  He still technically has a physical presence in some of the spren.  The Stormfather is a large piece of Honor, for example.

 

Am I misunderstanding your theory?  What Ookla the Infinite says is also true, and I would concur it's probably what was meant by the passage you pointed out.  They built Urithuru near the shardpool of Honor.

 

Also maybe I'm just misreading everything.  There have already been a couple times on here where something I thought was obvious just wasn't even true.  It's part of the reason I like these forums, they give me a chance to see things I never saw.

[nochange]

It has been confirmed by that the pool in Rock's homeland contains a shardpool in it, and I always assumed that it was Honor's. West of Aletha is the Horneater peaks. Perhaps that is Honor's physical form?

[Secret Ardent Man]

My reading is that Honor's Shardpool, like most, was up high in the mountains, so they built Urithiru around it. I wouldn't be surprised if they find a sapphire pool of liquid in a hidden room somewhere.

 

Does that mean that every Shard of Adonalsium would have a physical pool on the planet/system they oversee? Does Cultivation? For that matter, would Odium have to create a pool on every system he visits? 

[nochange]

I'm not really sure. There have been 3 identified pools in the cosmere so far. Ruin and Preservation on Scaldrial and then the pool from Elantris. But all of those have been on their respective planets where their magic is found.

 

Not sure if it is confirmed but from this quote it has been speculated that pools are related to worldhopping through shadesmar and the god described here is actually Hoid based on his conversation with Rock and his angular face desciption.

 

Quote:
Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders," Sigzil said, "because you execute outsiders who touch them."
"No, this is not true. Listen to story. Stop being boring."
"They're just hot springs," Sigzil grumbled, but returned to his drink.
Rock rolled his eyes. "On top, is water. Beneath, is not. Is something else. Water of life. The place of the gods. This thing is true. I have met a god myself."
"A god like Syl?" Kaladin asked. "Or maybe a riverspren?" Those were somewhat rare, but supposedly able to speak at times in simple ways, like windspren.
"No," Rock said. He leaned in, as if saying something conspiratorial. "I saw Lunu'anaki."
"Uh great," Moash said. "Wonderful."
"Lunu'anaki," Rock said, "is god of travel and mischief. Very powerful god. He came from depths of peak ocean, from realm of gods."
"What did he look like?" Lopen asked, eyes wide.
"Like person," Rock said. "Maybe Alethi, though skin was lighter. Very angular face. Handsome, perhaps. With white hair."
Sigzil looked up sharply. "White hair?"
"Yes," Rock said. "Not grey, like old man, but white- yes he is young man. He spoke with me on shore. Ha! Made mockery of my beard. Asked what year it was, by Horneater calendar. Thought my name was funny. Very powerful god."

[Moogle]

It has been confirmed by that the pool in Rock's homeland contains a shardpool in it, and I always assumed that it was Honor's. West of Aletha is the Horneater peaks. Perhaps that is Honor's physical form?

 

I don't think the emerald pools are Honor's. Honor is associated with blue via Syl, and green is... not. Cultivation, on the other hand, is easy to associate with green. Rock's people also call it the "waters of life".

 

Does that mean that every Shard of Adonalsium would have a physical pool on the planet/system they oversee? Does Cultivation? For that matter, would Odium have to create a pool on every system he visits? 

 

The physical form of Shards has been described as "spiritual humidity":

Q. Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the physical realm? About the different states of matter, what determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I’ve read the relevant sections carefully, haven’t noticed much about temperature difference.

A. The idea for me working on this is that they transcend, they permeate everything. They permeate all life on all the realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it’s kind of like they appear there in the various states. When you say that you’ve got the gas, you’ve got the liquid, you’ve got the solid: but you’ve also got inside of you, inside of that plant, like they’re everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it’s just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distils, just like water. There’s some water in the air, there’s some that freezes: that’s temperature. But it’s not always temperature whether it’s in the air, or whether it’s falling. Imagine a spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what’s happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that’s what you get.

Q. Because you’ve talked about alloying the god metals, I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

A. If you could distil the god metal: you could distil it out of the mist, that’s theoretically possible.

(source)

 

So yes, it seems clear that when a Shard Invests on a planet, it will create a Shardpool. I am pretty confident Roshar has a Shardpool for Honor and Cultivation, though I'm not sure to what degree Odium Invested Roshar - apparently his power is focused on Braize, but he also has Invested on Roshar? I've written long posts on whether or not Odium Invested Roshar before, and I believe the general consensus is that yes he would have had to in order for Voidbinding to exist/people on Roshar to have access to it.

 

We also have a WoB on Shardpools tending to be up high on mountains, I think, but even if we don't, it's clear from the text - Devotion's is up high, Preservation and Ruin's were both originally up on mountains, and now we have the emerald pools which are also conveniently up on a mountain.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[weebojello]

I had a thought that the purple reflected water in the chasms as noted by Kaladin might have been Odiums very limited shardpool on Roshar, but he's primarily invested on Braize. It would possible explain why the plains were shattered, for instance. However, as there not ... well, other "evil" funny business in the chasms besides the occasional chasmfiend waiting to get to the plateau and pupate and the rotted bodies of dead people, there really doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

So, I wonder what the chasmfiends did during the normal desolations for pupating, and prior to the smashed plains. Huh. Now I ponder.

[Oudeis]

Moogle: Just pointing out for the newbies here who might take you seriously, this whole "every Shard has a color" thing is just a guess on your part, and is hardly confirmed, unless there's a new WoB I don't know about. We have no reason to assume that Honor has a color, and even if we do, we have no reason to think the color is blue just because Sylphrena is.

 

weebojello: The "purple pool" in the chasm was just a puddle with an amethyst broam in it, glowing purple, coloring the water. While it's theoretically possible that the puddle was, in fact, a tiny shardpool of Odium, that would be quite a coincidence. The purple glow has been explained; once Kal removed the sphere, the pool stopped glowing.

[Moogle]

Ooklalhoo'Elin, on 03 Dec 2014 - 5:44 PM, said:

Moogle: Just pointing out for the newbies here who might take you seriously, this whole "every Shard has a color" thing is just a guess on your part, and is hardly confirmed, unless there's a new WoB I don't know about. We have no reason to assume that Honor has a color, and even if we do, we have no reason to think the color is blue just because Sylphrena is.

I'm not claiming every Shard has a color, and calling it a "guess" on my part is ignoring the fact that we have a WoB supporting that some Shards are associated with certain colors.

We have very good reason to assume the Shards on Roshar have colors, because we we know there's a green Shardpool. We've seen a Shard associated with white have a white Shardpool, and a Shard associated with black with a black Shardpool. A Shardpool being a certain color is strong evidence that that Shard is associated with that color.

If a Shardpool's color is random if that Shard hasn't associated itself with a color, we should give a 1/3 chance of this green Shardpool being Cultivation's, 1/3 for Honor, and 1/3 for Odium. If the Shardpool's color isn't random, then I feel very strongly that Cultivation would be associated with green. It is clear from my perspective that the emerald Shardpool has the highest probability of being associated with Cultivation.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Shards on Roshar have colors (which is not proven, yes), which Shard do you expect would be green? Honor, Cultivation, or Odium? Particular given that we know the three moons of Roshar were placed there artificially, and they are colored blue, green, and violet.

I note that it would be a very odd coincidence if the three Shards on Roshar weren't associated with colors, but the three moons' colors match up with the Shardpools' (of which we know one is green).

Since I'm already writing a jumble of disconnected thoughts, I may as well summarize the evidence that the green Shardpool is Cultivation's:

• Non-Horneaters die if they swim in the pools. Going off my previous posts, humans are likely Honor + Cultivation, listeners (though not originally) are Cultivation + Odium. Horneaters are part listener, so they're also part Cultivation now, which explains why they could swim in Cultivation's Shardpool and not die while humans can't. (This is weak evidence.)
• The emerald pools are called "the waters of life".
• Given three moon colors - blue/green/violet - I'd assign Cultivation to green, Honor to blue, and Odium to violet. I therefore anticipate Honor will have a blue Shardpool and Odium a violet one.
• Urithiru was built "in the place closest to Honor", and Urithiru is not on the Horneater Peaks.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Windrunner]

Personally, if every Shard has a unique color, I'm skeptical that Honor's would be blue.

Elantris Spoilers

 

 

Raoden frowned. The “lake” was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.

I've always considered this to be Devotion's pool, so blue seems to already have been taken as a color.

[Moogle]

Personally, if every Shard has a unique color, I'm skeptical that Honor's would be blue.

Elantris Spoilers

I've always considered this to be Devotion's pool, so blue seems to already have been taken as a color.

 

I don't know if I agree with your underlying assumption that the colors Shards associate themselves with have to be unique. I don't feel that the colors of Shards are intrinsic, but rather that they arise out of interactions with their environment over time. The Shards of black and white are implied via WoB to only have taken on those colors because they themselves were polar opposites of each other.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis]

 

I'm not claiming every Shard has a color, and calling it a "guess" on my part is ignoring the fact that we have a WoB supporting that some Shards are associated with certain colors.

We have very good reason to assume the Shards on Roshar have colors, because we we know there's a green Shardpool. We've seen a Shard associated with white have a white Shardpool, and a Shard associated with black with a black Shardpool. A Shardpool being a certain color is strong evidence that that Shard is associated with that color.

 

 

Mistborn Trilogy spoilers.

 

Are you talking about the WoB that The Lord Ruler wore black and white to indicate that he was of Preservation and Ruin? Because... him deciding to wear a stark contrast is a far cry from he himself believing the Shards themselves were actually tied somehow to those two specific colors, let alone your further leap that the Shards themselves accept it as truth.

 

Second, both of their pools were silvery-metallic. Who are you referring to that had black and white shardpools?

 

Also... are you saying that the shardpool is proof that Shards have colors, just because it's green? So... the fact that it's... visible, and thereby by definition has a color, means all Shards must be bound to a single color? You think that without some external reason, it would have been perfectly natural for a homogenous pool of liquid to be plaid or polka dotted?

 

Summary if you don't want to read the Mistborn spoilers... while I hate to counter without specifics, I can't think of a way to talk in enough abstract to avoid spoilers. It's basically calling into question Moogle's assertions. In short, if this is the first you're hearing about Moogle's hypothesis about colors, basically just realize it is a hypothesis, neither proven nor widely accepted.  But still entirely possible.

 

Also, Moogle. Suppose your hypothesis turns out to be correct. What ramifications do you see extending from this? What would it actually mean for the cosmere at large or our understanding of realmatics if it turns out that every single Shard is forced to choose a representative hue?

 

In conclusion, I'm just going to repeat something I've asked you before. I'm not saying you haven't provided some supporting evidence for your hypothesis. I'm not saying it's not entirely possible. What I am saying is, when you simply state it like it's a foregone fact, new people to the fora are going to see that you're staff, see your post count, see your reputation, and assume that this means you're actually correct. It would be so simple to add something like, "If, as I believe, and as I've got some evidence for, all Shards are associated with a certain color..." to your post, and then you're not confusing anyone.

[Moogle]

Mistborn Trilogy spoilers.

 

Are you talking about the WoB that The Lord Ruler wore black and white to indicate that he was of Preservation and Ruin? Because... him deciding to wear a stark contrast is a far cry from he himself believing the Shards themselves were actually tied somehow to those two specific colors, let alone your further leap that the Shards themselves accept it as truth.

 

Second, both of their pools were silvery-metallic. Who are you referring to that had black and white shardpools?

 

The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now—I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy—almost metallic—sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters.

...

Though the logbook didn’t describe the Lord Ruler’s entire journey, some of the marvels it did include—the ice fields to the north, the great black lake, and the Terris waterfalls—sounded amazing.

 

VegasDev (16 October 2008)

The other lake in Alendi's bumps?

 

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)

(source)

 

“Where is that light coming from?” Elend asked, frowning.

“A pool,” Vin said quietly, her eyes far keener than his. “A glowing white pool.”

 

Also... are you saying that the shardpool is proof that Shards have colors, just because it's green? So... the fact that it's... visible, and thereby by definition has a color, means all Shards must be bound to a single color? You think that without some external reason, it would have been perfectly natural for a homogenous pool of liquid to be plaid or polka dotted?

 

I said it was evidence, not proof. I apologize if I have given the impression that anything I think is undisputably true. When I say evidence, I mean in the Bayesian sense. When I think something is proven, I tend to invoke the words "as we know", or "by WoB".

 

I think emerald green and pure metallic white and pure metallic black are strange colors for liquids to be. If a Shard is not associated with a particular color, I would not expect those colors to come up. Devotion's crystalline blue is an example of something that I think is not strong evidence of Devotion being associated with blue - water quite often looks blue, after all. I think without an external reason that any Shardpools we find are not going to be hot pink.

 

Also, Moogle. Suppose your hypothesis turns out to be correct. What ramifications do you see extending from this? What would it actually mean for the cosmere at large or our understanding of realmatics if it turns out that every single Shard is forced to choose a representative hue?

 

Warbreaker spoilers:

I think Endowment's Shardpool, if we ever see it, will be revealed to be multi-hued, something like an oil stain. It's how Breath presents itself, after all. I don't think every Shard is forced to choose a representative hue, though I expect on any planet with multiple Shards that they will take on different hues as ways to differentiate themselves

 

I don't think every Shard is forced to choose a representative hue. The ramifications of any Shards choosing individual hues seem quite obvious to me in this WoB (Mistborn spoilers):

Question

Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue?

 

Brandon Sanderson

This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If a similar thing happened on another world, a similar coloring effect could happen.

(source)

 

I think that Shards are not forced into choosing a hue, but rather they just naturally come to think of themselves in that way. If you go to the gym, you naturally come to think of yourself as strong and in shape, and if you regularly encounter people who don't work out, you might come to think of yourself as unique in how you're in shape. If you are Honor, you think of yourself as honorable, and you have cultural associations between blue and Honor (say, Tanavast always admired the extremely honorable soldiers of West Examplestan, who wore blue uniforms), you might simply find your manifestations (the Shardpool, your Splinters) becoming blue. I know you hate it when I say it, but... I think it's ultimately more of a Cognitive thing. Warbreaker shows that cultural associations can affect things with Investiture quite strongly.

 

In conclusion, I'm just going to repeat something I've asked you before. I'm not saying you haven't provided some supporting evidence for your hypothesis. I'm not saying it's not entirely possible. What I am saying is, when you simply state it like it's a foregone fact, new people to the fora are going to see that you're staff, see your post count, see your reputation, and assume that this means you're actually correct. It would be so simple to add something like, "If, as I believe, and as I've got some evidence for, all Shards are associated with a certain color..." to your post, and then you're not confusing anyone.

 

I've probably brought this up before, but I hate having a little 'staff' icon next to my name. It seems to me like it gives me some sort of authority I don't feel I have, and I don't like the idea that some people trust my posts/theories more because of it. If I could hide it, I would. Your point that I should phrase myself as particularly uncertain on things to counteract this bias is well-received.

 

To your main point, however, I apologize for coming across as if I am stating it like what I think here is a foregone fact. However, I feel as if I adequately claim this is a theory and not fact. To quote myself:

My reading is that Honor's Shardpool, like most, was up high in the mountains, so they built Urithiru around it. I wouldn't be surprised if they find a sapphire pool of liquid in a hidden room somewhere.

...

I don't think the emerald pools are Honor's. Honor is associated with blue via Syl, and green is... not. Cultivation, on the other hand, is easy to associate with green. Rock's people also call it the "waters of life".

...

It is clear from my perspective that the emerald Shardpool has the highest probability of being associated with Cultivation.

...

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Shards on Roshar have colors (which is not proven, yes),

 

I re-read my posts, and I don't see where I treat this as a "foregone fact". I do feel rather confident that my speculation is well-founded, however. I try to write my posts with a confidence roughly commensurate with how well I feel the theory is supported by the evidence. At the moment, I am very confident that the emerald pools are Cultivation's, to the point where I would give it a 90% chance of being the case. (Which is to say that I would take 9:1 betting odds, if anyone feels like starting up a betting thing.)

Edited December 4, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[RawToast225]

There was a story told about a place where the water was drained from the world. Could that be a tail of another shardpool? Water is often a representation of life, water was being drained from the world. 1+2= Life was drained from the world through or around this pool. It could be a disguised shardpool. I don't know.

[Blaze1616]

Just a side note:

I think emerald green and pure metallic white and pure metallic black are strange colors for liquids to be. If a Shard is not associated with a particular color, I would not expect those colors to come up. Devotion's crystalline blue is an example of something that I think is not strong evidence of Devotion being associated with blue - water quite often looks blue, after all. I think without an external reason that any Shardpools we find are not going to be hot pink.

Emphasis added

Devotion's pool was an odd color for water, as it was described as Sapphire blue [source]. I've seen blue water. I've seen green water. But sapphire blue, just like emerald green, are odd colors for water.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Blaze1616

[Arondell]

I have this amusing vision of the distant past when Devotion told Honor to shove off cause she called dibs on blue.

[nochange]

Thanks for the clairification guys, I never considered shard colors. I guess based on that WOB two shards having the same color on different planets would not be a problem.

 

After thinking about it more you are right, the horneater pool is probably cultivation and not honor. I misread the quote thinking Urithiru is was located in Alethela -- which is not true. I am now curious where Urithiru and honor's pool are exactly.

[Moogle]

Just a side note:

Emphasis added

Devotion's pool was an odd color for water, as it was described as Sapphire blue [source]. I've seen blue water. I've seen green water. But sapphire blue, just like emerald green, are odd colors for water.

 

I just reread the section in Elantris (dead tree version, unfortunately, can't copypaste), and I think you're ascribing a bit too much importance to it being "sapphire" blue. Raoden originally describes it as a "crystalline blue", and later calls it "water". It is referred to as sapphire, but I think there's room for doubt that Brandon was just being descriptive. I'm sure the oceans on Earth have been described as sapphire plenty of times by poets. The pool itself is see-through - Raoden says it's about ten feet deep, which is only possible if the water was clear.

 

It's true, however, that a deep blue is something of an odd color for a ten-foot deep pool. I just don't think it's quite as odd as having emerald green water.  I'd have very few issues if the "default" color for Shardpools when a Shard doesn't have a color they associate with was the same blue color. I consider it moderately strong evidence for Devotion associating with blue. Blue is also associated with being a "calm" color, and plenty else, so I think on the whole that Devotion is probably associated with blue, but I don't think the color of the pool is a super strong argument on its own.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis]

Sorry for delay of response... I knew I was gonna have a long, boring day today and I have been staying away from the forum so I'd have a lot to respond to.
 
 

Though the logbook didn’t describe the Lord Ruler’s entire journey, some of the marvels it did include—the ice fields to the north, the great black lake, and the Terris waterfalls—sounded amazing.

 
 
“Where is that light coming from?” Elend asked, frowning.
“A pool,” Vin said quietly, her eyes far keener than his. “A glowing white pool.”

Mistborn.

I had missed the oblique reference to the "black lake," I only heard that it had a metallic sheen and I guess I assumed. I'm going to re-read the section about the Well, though, and get back to you.

 
 

I think emerald green and pure metallic white and pure metallic black are strange colors for liquids to be. If a Shard is not associated with a particular color, I would not expect those colors to come up. Devotion's crystalline blue is an example of something that I think is not strong evidence of Devotion being associated with blue - water quite often looks blue, after all. I think without an external reason that any Shardpools we find are not going to be hot pink.

But... whatever else the pools are, they aren't water just because they're liquid, any more than atium is steel just because it's metal. There are things in this world that can be liquid and are naturally green.
 

I don't think every Shard is forced to choose a representative hue. The ramifications of any Shards choosing individual hues seem quite obvious to me in this WoB

From the very WoB you posted, "If a similar thing happened on another world, a similar coloring effect could happen." A fairly strong implication there; if something similar happened, colors could be picked. That's a pretty funny way to phrase it if this is a thing which has happened on every Shardworld.
 

If you are Honor, you think of yourself as honorable, and you have cultural associations between blue and Honor (say, Tanavast always admired the extremely honorable soldiers of West Examplestan, who wore blue uniforms), you might simply find your manifestations (the Shardpool, your Splinters) becoming blue. I know you hate it when I say it, but... I think it's ultimately more of a Cognitive thing. Warbreaker shows that cultural associations can affect things with Investiture quite strongly.

First, sometime before I die, I'm stealing your "West Examplestan" to describe something to someone.
 
Second... this is actually a time when "because cognitive" is a perfectly acceptable thing. Because, you're really only talking about a personal decision made by someone, like deciding what shirt to wear, you're not trying to claim that the very laws of physics themselves are changing based on nothing more than someone wanting them to. To take your example a step further, there's no physical law of the universe which demands that honorable troops must wear blue because West Examplestan was both honorable and wore blue. Wearing blue does not make someone more honorable, and wearing red does not make someone more chaotic. It's nothing more than a color scheme.

It's possible I've been misunderstanding you. I thought you were trying to claim that it was some important, immutable, fundamental law of the universe. It now seems you're saying it's more like a distinctive haircut. I have absolutely no problem stipulating this.
 

To your main point, however, I apologize for coming across as if I am stating it like what I think here is a foregone fact. However, I feel as if I adequately claim this is a theory and not fact. To quote myself:
 
I re-read my posts, and I don't see where I treat this as a "foregone fact". I do feel rather confident that my speculation is well-founded, however. I try to write my posts with a confidence roughly commensurate with how well I feel the theory is supported by the evidence. At the moment, I am very confident that the emerald pools are Cultivation's, to the point where I would give it a 90% chance of being the case. (Which is to say that I would take 9:1 betting odds, if anyone feels like starting up a betting thing.)

Honor is associated with blue via Syl, and green is... not.

We have very good reason to assume the Shards on Roshar have colors, because we we know there's a green Shardpool.

And there are other times where you say similar things; for example: "I don't feel that the colors of Shards are intrinsic, but rather that they arise out of interactions with their environment over time."

You're saying "you don't feel" about one aspect of the color thing... but by saying that, the underlying premise of your statement is that the existence of the color thing is a foregone conclusion.

And your posts are filled with things like "I strongly feel that Cultivation is associated with green" or "I give it a 90% probability" where you're ascribing a great deal of evidence to something which is, in truth, nothing more than a guess on your part. Sure, you think Cultivation should be green, because on Earth, plants are mostly green. That's not the case on Roshar, where plants are any color, nor is Cultivation limited to plants. The same Earth associations won't be true on a place as alien as Roshar, even if you do assume that this "color" thing is real.

In conclusion, I don't think we know anything like enough about Shardpools for there to be even a basis for your guesses. Yes, they are technically evidence, like the fact that you've never seen me in person and therefore don't know I'm human is "technically evidence" that I'm a unicorn. When you then follow it up by assuming a premise as you speculate further, or giving things 90% chances of being true, you're overselling your evidence to a ludicrous degree.

That I know of, the only WoB we have which even implies that every Shard must have a pool is the one you quoted above, which says that "spiritual humidity will condense like water" which some people take to assume that he means literally like water and it will turn into a pool. I happen to think even this assumption is a speculative leap.

But even supposing it's true, how do we know every Shardpool will act as we assume? If the powers of Shards really are like "mist in the air," mist from three sources will mix. We know they didn't for Preservation and Ruin because those were two diametrically opposed Shards, meaning their powers could not mix, like how oil and water will settle differently. We also have WoB that no two other Shards are as polarized as those two. Even if we could assume the blue pool in the mountains is a Shardpool, how do we know it's only Devotion's? Might it not be one pool of both Devotion and Dominion? Maybe there's one Shardpool of both Honor and Cultivation, or even a pool of all three, the way I, sitting at my table at a restaurant, not smoking, cannot prevent the smoke in the air from the cigar of the guy at the table next to me of wafting over and infecting my space.

My point is, you're building a castle on shifting sands, and you're using phrases like "strong evidence" or "90% certainty" or just passively stipulating to a premise as part of further speculation like you think you're on bedrock.

...Sorry for the super long post. Like I said, a lot of time today.

 

EDIT: Having just last night read the most recent additions to the Idaho Falls Signing Report, I concede several more points concerning shardpools.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[Moogle]

Entire post touches on Cosmere spoilers, and I don't feel like spoilering every section:

From the very WoB you posted, "If a similar thing happened on another world, a similar coloring effect could happen." A fairly strong implication there; if something similar happened, colors could be picked. That's a pretty funny way to phrase it if this is a thing which has happened on every Shardworld.

 
Or he could be saying that because a large number of worlds have a single Shard on them, not multiples. Notably, Endowment is a single Shard, and doesn't have a color picked.
 

It's possible I've been misunderstanding you. I thought you were trying to claim that it was some important, immutable, fundamental law of the universe. It now seems you're saying it's more like a distinctive haircut. I have absolutely no problem stipulating this.

 
Then we're agreed on this point, I think.
 

Honor is associated with blue via Syl, and green is... not.

We have very good reason to assume the Shards on Roshar have colors, because we we know there's a green Shardpool.

And there are other times where you say similar things; for example: "I don't feel that the colors of Shards are intrinsic, but rather that they arise out of interactions with their environment over time."

You're saying "you don't feel" about one aspect of the color thing... but by saying that, the underlying premise of your statement is that the existence of the color thing is a foregone conclusion.

 
My last sentence should be read as "Shards, when they have colors, are not intrinsic but instead arise out of interactions with their environment". I guess my wording isn't as clear as it could be, but I do think you're not reading me very charitably there.
 
As to the first sentence: I would say Honor can indeed associated with blue via Syl (as she's an honorspren), even if he hasn't "picked" blue for himself as a color. I would say that Odium can be associated with purple/red/black at this point, for example, via the black sphere/voidspren and Kal's vision of him/violet moon/listeners having black and red skin. (Black sphere is not confirmed, nor is the violet moon confirmed to be with him, but I'm just trying to say that I'm drawing connections, and there's a few for Honor + blue, but no strong ones for Cultivation + blue.)
 

And your posts are filled with things like "I strongly feel that Cultivation is associated with green" or "I give it a 90% probability" where you're ascribing a great deal of evidence to something which is, in truth, nothing more than a guess on your part. Sure, you think Cultivation should be green, because on Earth, plants are mostly green. That's not the case on Roshar, where plants are any color, nor is Cultivation limited to plants. The same Earth associations won't be true on a place as alien as Roshar, even if you do assume that this "color" thing is real.

 
Except for the part where lifespren are green, the weird Rosharan plants become temporarily green when you spray them with water, Wyndle is a gardener and associated with Cultivation strongly and is green,  and I don't know how many other things. I'm sympathetic to your point that things on Roshar can't just be assumed to be like their Earth analogues, but the evidence points towards green being associated with life (and thus Cultivation).
 
I have a lot of weak evidence here, and I think calling this a "guess" is throwing that out. I haven't even gotten into the meta arguments that since Brandon himself is himself human and has unconscious associations between green/life. You're trying to say that Roshar isn't going to share a lot of things we have on Earth like that, but ultimately Brandon is human and his unconscious associations are going to leak through at times. He's not a perfect writer, he's just very good. (Note: again, this is a weak argument, I am not trying to claim it is foolproof.)
 

In conclusion, I don't think we know anything like enough about Shardpools for there to be even a basis for your guesses. Yes, they are technically evidence, like the fact that you've never seen me in person and therefore don't know I'm human is "technically evidence" that I'm a unicorn. When you then follow it up by assuming a premise as you speculate further, or giving things 90% chances of being true, you're overselling your evidence to a ludicrous degree.

 
I haven't seen you, so it is "technically evidence" you're a unicorn, but my prior probability for you being human is so high that that weak evidence doesn't shift my belief very much. I would need a lot of strong evidence to be convinced you're an AI or a unicorn, or something not human simply because of how overwhelming high my prior probability of you being human is. However, I don't need much evidence to convince me that Cultivation has taken green as her color, because I don't have that sort of extremely high or low prior probability of her being associated/not associated with a color. (And honestly, it helps that if you'd asked me about what color I'd associate with the word "cultivation" before I ever read any Sanderson books that I'd say green.)

 

Each of my points is small, and sometimes is an assumed premise that itself provides weak evidence, it's true. I still believe that in aggregate it forms a very compelling argument. You're welcome to disagree, though I am curious as to what probability you'd give for the proposition "Cultivation has taken green as her color".
 

That I know of, the only WoB we have which even implies that every Shard must have a pool is the one you quoted above, which says that "spiritual humidity will condense like water" which some people take to assume that he means literally like water and it will turn into a pool. I happen to think even this assumption is a speculative leap.

 
I am afraid that this is a point that I can't really argue as fully as I'd like to for a number of reasons. That said, every single planet we've been on with a Shard has had a Shardpool. Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, Roshar. 100% hit rate there. If it's a leap, it's a small one. To also quote the WoB again:

Q. Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the physical realm? About the different states of matter, what determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I’ve read the relevant sections carefully, haven’t noticed much about temperature difference.
A. The idea for me working on this is that they transcend, they permeate everything. They permeate all life on all the realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it’s kind of like they appear there in the various states. When you say that you’ve got the gas, you’ve got the liquid, you’ve got the solid: but you’ve also got inside of you, inside of that plant, like they’re everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it’s just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distils, just like water. There’s some water in the air, there’s some that freezes: that’s temperature. But it’s not always temperature whether it’s in the air, or whether it’s falling. Imagine a spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what’s happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that’s what you get.
Q. Because you’ve talked about alloying the god metals, I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.
A. If you could distil the god metal: you could distil it out of the mist, that’s theoretically possible.
(source)

 
He notes specifically that "there are manifestations of [shards] that leak out". He doesn't say, "sometimes they leak out". It seems like something that's going to happen for every Shard to me based on this WoB.
 

But even supposing it's true, how do we know every Shardpool will act as we assume? If the powers of Shards really are like "mist in the air," mist from three sources will mix. We know they didn't for Preservation and Ruin because those were two diametrically opposed Shards, meaning their powers could not mix, like how oil and water will settle differently. We also have WoB that no two other Shards are as polarized as those two. Even if we could assume the blue pool in the mountains is a Shardpool, how do we know it's only Devotion's? Might it not be one pool of both Devotion and Dominion? Maybe there's one Shardpool of both Honor and Cultivation, or even a pool of all three, the way I, sitting at my table at a restaurant, not smoking, cannot prevent the smoke in the air from the cigar of the guy at the table next to me of wafting over and infecting my space.

 
Certainly possible (and I lean in the direction of your arguments, since I was sort of involved in Shard Meshing theory), but pretty much contradicted by WoB:

Windrunner
Why does Devotion's Shardpool act so differently from Preservation's?

Brandon Sanderson
For similar reasons to why the Dor acts so differently from Preservation's essence...
(source)

 
Brandon takes it as a given here. I guess you could argue that this doesn't confirm it, but that sort of seems like a weak argument to me. I'll continue arguing on this point just in case, though:
 
Devotion and Dominion have separate Splinters - Seons are of Devotion, and Skaze (I think that's how you spell it) are of Dominion. We know Splinters can "mesh", like the Nahel bonding spren on Roshar.
 
And the pool itself certainly evokes Devotion and not Dominion. Elantrians themselves seem to be selected because of how devoted they are to something, not because of anything relating to Dominion.
 
And, by WoB, there's only one magic system on Sel. So, despite the fact that the Shards couldn't prevent themselves from "mixing" in the Dor, their Shardpools at least seem to be separate.

 

SA3 spoilers:

And I note that since we know Shardpools are used for Worldhopping (likely by going to Shadesmar), and Ivory speaks of "Honor's Perpendicularity" as being required to get back into the Physical, it seems super super likely that Honor has his own Shardpool.

 

My point is, you're building a castle on shifting sands, and you're using phrases like "strong evidence" or "90% certainty" or just passively stipulating to a premise as part of further speculation like you think you're on bedrock.

 

I wouldn't call a 90% confidence as being "bedrock". You call what I have "shifting sands", but from my perspective I have an awful lot of sand. (I'm bad at analogies.) I see what you're saying, though, that you think I'm too confident given the evidence. I'm afraid all I can do is shrug at this point, since I'm not really sure how we're supposed to discuss and argue about the way my brain assigns importance to evidence. I've presented my evidence, it fits together well for me, and there's a rather glaring lack of counterevidence. I feel I've made a strong argument, and you don't. I'm not quite sure we can do more than agree to disagree, here.

 

It also hurts that you've not read unpublished works, like the SA3 sample chapters and Aether of the Night. We aren't both operating on the same background information. (Which isn't to say that the unpublished works deal with this issue specifically - I'm just noting that some of my sense of the Cosmere has been informed by my readings of those books. The more books I read set in the Cosmere, the more I get familiar with a lot of things and can see the way Brandon thinks and approaches things.) This might partly explain why we assign differing importance to the evidence.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis]

I'm not going to address every issue, because we're starting to get rather long. I'm going to triage for the issues that I think are critical. If I don't address a specific point which you wish I would, please let me know and I will. If I don't address it, it's not because I don't have a response, I'm simply attempting some brevity.

 

For same reasons, spoilers.

My last sentence should be read as "Shards, when they have colors, are not intrinsic but instead arise out of interactions with their environment". I guess my wording isn't as clear as it could be, but I do think you're not reading me very charitably there.

This is, perhaps, the crux. I know how to read you and I know "what you meant." Whether you want it or not, however, you do in fact have cachet on this forum. New people, or even people who simply don't know you as well, will not know how to "read you charitably." You don't have to follow my advice if you don't want to, but in the past I've run into a lot of people who try to base arguments on speculation they thought was fact.

 

As to the first sentence: I would say Honor can indeed associated with blue via Syl (as she's an honorspren), even if he hasn't "picked" blue for himself as a color.

...

and there's a few for Honor + blue, but no strong ones for Cultivation + blue.)

...

 

Except for the part where lifespren are green, the weird Rosharan plants become temporarily green when you spray them with water, Wyndle is a gardener and associated with Cultivation strongly and is green,  and I don't know how many other things.

...

 

I have a lot of weak evidence here, and I think calling this a "guess" is throwing that out.

This is where it sorta looks like you're trying to have it both ways. Your evidence is so weak, you actually have to explain your atypical, Bayesian definition of the word in order to get most of what you want as 'evidence'. But then, you want your mountain of weak arguments to be accepted as though they're impactful.

The issue is that you're cherry-picking data. If you go through the entirety of two enormous books, specifically looking for ways you can find anything green that you can associate however loosely with Cultivation, yes, you'll find a dozen examples. But that's starting with a conclusion and then trying to support it, which isn't terribly scientific. If you look at the sum total of data... well, frankly, our minds would probably explode, because if we're allowing such a low bar for 'evidence' we drown in the stuff.

For example, you're citing as 'weak evidence' the fact that one plant is shown to turn green under certain circumstances; presumably, your assumption is "plants mean cultivation." If we apply that standard universally, then you'd have to also accept that every plant, or animal, which has a color, is equal "weak evidence" that Cultivation is that color, instead. So we've got whitespines, red chulls, the white trees at Shallan's Middlefest flashback, black stumpweights, and the mini-lait Shallan found on her way to the Shattered Plains with reds, purples, yellows, oranges, a plethora of colors.

Also, Syl is blue because she looks like her cousins, the windspren. We know most spren are divided into nature or emotion, and wind is obviously nature. If anything, blue windspren are evidence that blue is of Cultivation, not Honor.

 

Each of my points is small, and sometimes is an assumed premise that itself provides weak evidence, it's true. I still believe that in aggregate it forms a very compelling argument.

Here, you bring up that you see evidence for your theories, and none against. Well, just there, one a single point, off the top of my head, I've given you eight or more counter-examples. If I wanted to take the time to look at the rest, I could probably easily reach a hundred, which is far more than you've provided examples of your own "weak evidence" to support your own theory.

 

...every single planet we've been on with a Shard has had a Shardpool. Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, Roshar. 100% hit rate there. If it's a leap, it's a small one.

Where did we see a Shardpool on Nalthis? As I believe I've stated, with Mr. Sanderson's most recent WoB on the subject, I now concede that we've got strong evidence that the blue lake was, in fact, a "Shardpool." I fully stipulate that every world with at least one Shard will have a Shardpool. I still don't think we actually understand the implications and ramifications of these, or what they all do, as well as we assume we do.

 

And the pool itself certainly evokes Devotion and not Dominion. Elantrians themselves seem to be selected because of how devoted they are to something, not because of anything relating to Dominion.

Dominion means a place that a power holds sway. The Shaod only happens within a radius of Elantris, and the power of AonDor drops off significantly as you leave. AonDor has a STRONG "Dominion" component.

 

I wouldn't call a 90% confidence as being "bedrock".

You misunderstand my analogy. I'm not saying you're trying to build a castle out of sand, I'm saying you're building it on sand. You're saying your theory has a 90% chance of being true, but in order for it to even be possible, we'd have to assume that all of your premises are also true, and there are a lot of them, and you haven't proven many. So for a 90% chance of the entire thing to be true, each individual premise, most of them built on your admitted "weak evidence," would each need... what, something like 97-99% chance of being true? So you want us to believe that three or four speculations on your part are all independently a statistical certainty.

 

It also hurts that you've not read unpublished works

Remember, those works are, in fact, unpublished, and very much subject to change. I would hasten to suggest that if your understanding of realmatics is predicated on noncanonical sources, it's even that much less reliable. This is actually expressly why I try to avoid those chapters. I would rather not have to build a Chinese Wall in my own mind to try to recall which bits of data are actually true, and which are subject to revision.

I'm trying to decide if I've got an "in conclusion." If I do, it's this. We've agreed a while ago that if Shards have a color, it's simply a matter of divine fashion. Any given Shard, for any reason, might or might not choose to identify itself with a specific color, or even a pattern or a combination of colors. There's no law of realmatics which says it must be a thing, and by the same token, even if Honor is, in fact, blue, that doesn't mean everything blue is going to be associated with Honor. That seems to be most of what either of us are getting at.

... We sure are two people able to collate insane amounts of data and talk for a long time when we've essentially already finished the debate.

EDIT: One more point. For the record, I do happen to think the Shardpools on the Horneater Peaks are either of Cultivation, or a mix of Cultivation and Honor. This has nothing whatsoever to do with their hue, though I'll concede that the color has at least a chance of being due to your supposition.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[navybrandt]

Sorry to distract from this interesting discussion about the color of shards/shardpools!

 

THEORY: So, I've been thinking about a lot of stuff and one theory I had was that Honor's physical manifestation of power on Roshar might actually be the Honorblades themselves.  They are kind of hidden in plain sight, and I don't think we know where they came from originally.  Honor might give of himself to create something that helps mankind fight the Desolations.

 

Mistborn spoiler:

And don't forget, Ruin's physical form was a metal. Metal can be forged into a blade and a god-metal could grant powers.

 

That might explain why Spren were so interested in copying the Honorblades when making Shardblades.

[RawToast225]

I can cotton to that, navy. I think you should make it a new thread topic so more people see it.